Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 3) The End.

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Gojoe
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Gojoe » Mon May 11, 2009 8:19 am UTC

No honestly we do not want to waste our doctors/seers. You are making us waste them. I have seen 2 day1 cop claims. One was a false mafia claim that sucked, the other was a real claim, next day a doctor died, the cop followed. I am a firm believer that follow the cop does not work.
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Though in this fora I serenade you
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*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Mon May 11, 2009 9:36 am UTC

If the cop claims we're forced into a nasty little game N1... it's beneficial for both scum teams if they BOTH kill the opposing teams cop - i.e. they both come out ahead if both cop/seer dies. It's even more beneficial for a single team if the other team kills their cop and they hit a random. And of course, if both teams hit a random then yeah that's the lose-lose situation. It's a fairly classic game theory situation, and if just one team decides to play co-operatively, then our dual-cop thing fails. Even though the nash equilibrium is for neither team to co-operate, it's not really worth the risk. Don't even mention the idea of doc/angel playing the game and protecting the other one, because then it gets too complex. Thus, I think it's better to take the chances and let the cop stay hidden; it's definitely not in the interest of the mafia to kill the seer, and the doc might make a good guess.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby MasterOfAll » Mon May 11, 2009 3:32 pm UTC

Gojoe, don't forget that there are going to be 3 deaths per day (unless doctor/angel pick correctly or scum choose same target), so this game is going to go pretty fast. So, I really don't think it makes sense to save the investigators for a rainy day.

And dedalus, yeah, game theory situations can be fun. The only problem is that scum should WANT seer to be alive no matter what. (With the seer alive there is a the chance that a werewolf will be outed which then consumes a lynch and reduces the competition.) There is never any situation that scum want the seer to die, so why would they ever kill him? So, no, it really isn't as you described.
Kipper wrote:SERIOUSLY. Listen to MoA, he knows his stuff. . . High five MoA!
(not funny, but true)
ameretrifle wrote:MoA is an astute logician and is, in fact, directly related to Sherlock Holmes on his mother's side.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Mon May 11, 2009 10:33 pm UTC

3 deaths a day (i'm assuming you're including the lynch) is only 1 more then a normal mafia game. Thing is though, we really have to find actual scum tonight... we're pretty much going to be at lylo if we dont (4-7 becomes 4-4 2nd day... not cool).
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Gojoe » Mon May 11, 2009 11:31 pm UTC

Hm, I actually wasn't thinking about the extra nk. That would speed up the chance of hitting a cop. But let's be honest is that what you were thinking when you roleclaimed?
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Tue May 12, 2009 12:00 am UTC

Gojoe wrote:Hm, I actually wasn't thinking about the extra nk. That would speed up the chance of hitting a cop. But let's be honest is that what you were thinking when you roleclaimed?

Yes. I mentioned in my wall-of-text post earlier that, with both cops unknown, we had a 40ish percent chance of losing one. That wouldn't be the case if only one person died each night.

If this were a normal mafia game, I probably would have waited AT LEAST one night, and maybe two.
I do have to say, I'm used to playing Mafia with rules that allow the doctor to save himself, but prohibit him from saving any one person twice in a row. In such a situation, the cop is likely to have only one more round to live after coming out, and only does so when he has enough information to be willing to sacrifice himself for it. The setup more popular here on the xkcd forums, of course, is obviously quite different, and appears (to me) to make an open-cop strategy work pretty well.

As for using random kills as a model: I know it's not a perfect approximation and that no kill is truly random. It's often more-or-less predictable whom the mafia will try to hit and who is likely to be lynched. It's not quite as easy, though, for either group (town or mafia) know what someone's role is from what they say. If someone's acting a little bit scummy, you could say they're likely to get lynched -- but it's a little harder to say whether that person's scum, or a power role trying to look scummy enough not to get NKd. So talking about who will get killed in terms of which roles will be gone tomorrow requires going through two layers of uncertainty...and, yeah, i'd say it's almost -- albeit not quite -- random.

And,
Josiah, your statistics are good but honestly, most of mafia isn't random and playing the game beats playing the math any day.

I know that. But this game has been terribly quiet, and I think people's reactions to the math (just like their reactions to a vote to no-lynch), give us a lot of useful information.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Kipper » Tue May 12, 2009 12:06 am UTC

I'm pretty sure the chance of the mafia/werewolves killing each other balance out the extra kill.
In other news, I'm suspicious of dedalus.
He's very aggressive against MoA, then seems to hold back when he thinks that it would make more people happy.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Tue May 12, 2009 3:58 am UTC

I'm not holding back to make people happy, I just feel lonely. I don't trust my own arguments that much... and if no-one else is taking my side then I really doubt my case is logical or good enough to justify lynching someone. It's impossible for every player that knows what they're doing to be aligned as to want MoA killed even if he is scum, so if I'm making a ruckus and no-one is paying attention, chances are i'm just blowing my mouth off about things that are unimportant.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Tue May 12, 2009 4:08 am UTC

EBWOP; *it's impossible for every player to be so aligned as to want MoA to stay alive if he is scum.

Sorry, that's what i meant to write lol. Makes more sense that way.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Gojoe » Tue May 12, 2009 7:38 am UTC

back in mafia round 2 (there were 2 mafia factions) the mafia pretty much just kept hitting town. So... yah, dont assume they will hit each other.
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

Feeble accompanying guitar.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby tokol » Tue May 12, 2009 1:27 pm UTC

I generally agree with dedalus. He seems town and his arguments make sense.

Also, come on people. This is a mini and after more than a week of day one, we really don't have a strong lynch target! More than a third of the game is scum, it shouldn't be that hard to find one.

Since we're running the risk of a mod warning and I don't think we're going to get much better information today.
Vote: MoA

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Tue May 12, 2009 2:20 pm UTC

Woah, after I'd unvoted. Then again, this game is pretty dead.

Just to narrow this down... Kipper and Gojoe what are your thoughts on the me vs MoA debate? Obviously I don't know where your loyalties lie, but a comment on whether my arguments are crap or decent would be nice.

@anyone else, not trying to exclude here, just that those are the players that seem to have big reputations/experience in the forums. and Tokol, thanks for that confidence boost :P.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Tue May 12, 2009 2:38 pm UTC

Sorry, I'd meant to revote: MoA earlier.

dedalus, most of what you're saying seems to make sense. I don't like the "but, since I am town..." and I'm highly suspicious of his assertion that the mafia and werewolves could be safely assumed to follow a particular course of action.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Dromtry » Tue May 12, 2009 7:15 pm UTC

Honestly, I'm more suspicious of dedalus and josiah than I am of MoA. Again, I'm not fond of josiah constantly kicking up dust. I know someone has to make accusations, but if only one or two people are trying to sway eight people, I don't think there is enough to really go off of. dedalus, I agree with kipper, you seem to be on the offensive, but again, someone needs to point fingers.

The WIFOM from MoA was a little eye-catching, and what was that at the end of your spoiler'd post josiah? Another WIFOM?

Straight up, if no one had countered you josiah, I would be rallying for a lynch against you.
~steve

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Tue May 12, 2009 10:58 pm UTC

Heh seeing as two people have fingers pointed at me, I kind of don't want to stick my neck out by jumping back onto this bandwagon, so I'm going to look at the last 4 pages total over my break in an hour or so, and see if anything really sticks out.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Kipper » Tue May 12, 2009 11:23 pm UTC

Vote: Dedalus
Wayyyyyyyyyy too concerned in what others are thinking.
Starts aggressive (no problems), backs off when it seems others are semi-against him, and now is following what others may think instead of speaking his own mind. If you think he is scum, vote for him. Don't hold off because you think others might find it suspicious.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby myrrh7x » Wed May 13, 2009 12:15 am UTC

3 MoA (Dedalus, Tokol, JosiahSon)
1 Dedalus (Kipper/Fishy)

6 to lynch.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Wed May 13, 2009 12:21 am UTC

Kipper wrote:Vote: Dedalus
Wayyyyyyyyyy too concerned in what others are thinking.
Starts aggressive (no problems), backs off when it seems others are semi-against him, and now is following what others may think instead of speaking his own mind. If you think he is scum, vote for him. Don't hold off because you think others might find it suspicious.


That's a good point. I'm not confident enough to change my vote yet though...I think he and MoA might both be scum.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Wed May 13, 2009 2:08 am UTC

So now I have to defend myself.

Kind of a metagame way of doing this, but right now, this is in effect my 3rd day of mafia. First game I had, the suspicions that I put up against someone I was 99% sure about proved to be wrong. And I died that night. Both of my other games, I've yet to make an attack on a player that's been defended, and I've never had someone put up such a strong defence as MoA has.

On top of that, I've been forced to evaluate my own reasons for attacking MoA. And in reality, though i personally think that repeatedly making expressed mention of the fact that you 'are' town is a big scumtell, I had a look over his posts in plenty of other games where he's done the exact same thing and turned out to be town. This doesn't mean he ISNT scum, but it does mean that the main thing I've been arguing towards has a lot less weight on it. In effect, my original case boils down to his statement that he 'still thinks it's ok for cop to claim, but if he doesn't want to I understand'. By itself, it's not really enough.

There might be a bit of WIFOM in his final statement, but I haven't yet had the time to go over it all and figure it out. So, instead, I've kind of been lazy, asking other players to comment on my arguments. There's also a bit of confidence building there, in finding out whether other people think my arguments make sense etc; in that respect, it was probably better that the question went in the game discussion thread rather then the game thread. Either way...

For the record, I did unvote about 4-5 posts previously. I'll do it again,

unvote

And it's my fault it didn't get picked up, it was in the middle of a fairly sizeable paragraph. Right now I do think MoA could be scum, same as everyone else, but not enough to warrant my vote staying on him anymore.

In terms of the bandwagon going against me, I've really got not much more defence. Personally I think that less experienced players wanting the opinion of more experienced players or displaying unconfidence isn't a scumtell. And for the record, I aint scum. Seeing as lynching a townie and then having 2 town killed will take us down to 4-4 which is not a friendly ratio, I can hardly agree with MoA's 'lynching me would be better then lynching a power role.

I will post a new list of suspicions when I next have the time... owing to uni and stuff I can't promise it for another few days.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Kipper » Wed May 13, 2009 2:14 am UTC

1. There's no bandwagon against you, just one vote.
2. Overdefending is a common newbie-scum tactic, and that's exactly what you just did.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Gojoe » Wed May 13, 2009 4:33 am UTC

Overdefending is a noob tatic. But I understand it. Also I would just like to say I do NOT think that we should lynch one of the maybe 5 active players. dedalus deserves to stick around for now.
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

Feeble accompanying guitar.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Wed May 13, 2009 7:03 am UTC

Kipper i tend to ramble, and half of that post was me saying why my argument against MoA is falling apart. Also, never said I was being bandwagoned, but 3 people have pointed fingers at me, and looking at my posting over the last 2-3 days without taking into account the reasoning, I can understand why. So I think it's better to explain myself now rather then later.

:P Now this becomes a defence of my defence and I'm doing even more defending... looks like I can't win does it.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Christophoros » Wed May 13, 2009 11:34 am UTC

OK, Dedalus's defence made sense to me. Why is overdefending considered bad? Surely it's better to make all the points in your defence, rather than leave some out. It's just providing more information on yourself.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Wed May 13, 2009 8:23 pm UTC

Christophoros wrote:OK, Dedalus's defence made sense to me. Why is overdefending considered bad? Surely it's better to make all the points in your defence, rather than leave some out. It's just providing more information on yourself.

I'm still somewhat suspicious of him, but more for how much he seemed to care whether his suspicions were popular than for "overdefending." Perhaps It's because I'm new here, but I think that's nonsense.

Of course, I definitely don't see myself voting for him given the information we have - at least not today.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Kipper » Thu May 14, 2009 12:41 am UTC

For me, overdefending as a newb is not too dissimilar to lurking.
The newb doesn't know what to do, so instead of either brushing off, refuting with actions, or just plain ignoring a 1-2 sentence vote, they freak out and do a 3 paragraph odyssey, just to be safe. As both of you have said, it's not overly critical, but between that and the overconcern of suspicion, I feel justified in leaving my vote, especially since I'm the only one voting for him.
@Gojoe: I know he's active, but then do you have any other ideas?
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Thu May 14, 2009 4:39 am UTC

Ok, well I'd like to point another finger at someone here who's been slipping under the radar: Tokol:

Spoiler:
Firstly, he's practically lurking. There's 6 posts total from him including a confirm. Although people such as nsmjohn have been even less helpful, Tokol has posted specifically to state 'Hey, I'm here, I'm not lurking':
Tokol wrote:Since we're all waiting around for MoA, I'm just posting to let you guys know I'm still active.


Now, post content:
Hey guys. Confirming. I'm out of town, and I won't have better than rare Internet access until Monday. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I don't have anything very substantive to post at the moment. The seer claim and protection seems like a good strategy to reduce our odds of losing a cop-role night one.

He's jumped onto someone else's actions saying 'seems like a good idea'. Nothing of his own here.

I feel like the Werewolves and Mafia will probably try to help each other out this early in the game. It must be their love of killing townies.

I have a minor suspicion of Christo right now, but that's definitely not anything to go on. The talk of MoA as anti-town has also riled my suspicion. Nothing here to go on though, except maybe to converse.

I've already said I don't like 'feels'. 'feels', 'seems', 'I think' etc, are bad words for any townie to be using; they give a view without any reasoning. This means that other people may be influenced by a view; 'x thinks y is scum therefore y must be looking scummy', whereas feelings that cannot be explained are quite often based on biased or flawed logic and thus could be quite incorrect. In the same way, these are brilliant tools for mafia, they allow suspicions to be directed at people based on little or no evidence, and should the argument be called into question it is very easily retracted. So yeah, to me those words are scumtells.

The minor suspicion of Chris comes under the same category as 'feels', and if anything it's introducing an opinion that shouldn't even be expressed in a mafia game. Right now, I feel everyone is scummy. I think Josiah is scummy, and he's confirmed town. And I'm not the only one. As such, your minor suspicion reeks of scum. You've also associated yourself slightly with the MoA is scum team, but again, not enough to look like you're jumping on the bandwagon. As for 'Nothing here to go on though, except maybe to converse'... in that case, why post? Thus, this post is a mix of other peoples arguments and unwarranted suspicions, and I'm fairly sure it's only there to give the 'I'm not lurking feel'.

It's just what I was thinking after a read through. The number and lack of content of Christo's posts came off to me with the "I'm paying attention, but lurking to avoid tells" way.

Since my last post, Christo posted a good explanation of what I was saying on why we shouldn't count on the anti-town factions not helping each other out. It's better content, but hasn't really helped my suspicions. I'll still be keeping an eye on him.


Well, considering the number and lack of content of your own posts, it seems like you've been doing much the same here. And now, you've jumped off the Chris train because he's posted what... 3 lines? 'I'll still be keeping an eye on him.'... you're buckling under my FoS, but trying to retain some credibility.

I generally agree with dedalus. He seems town and his arguments make sense.

Also, come on people. This is a mini and after more than a week of day one, we really don't have a strong lynch target! More than a third of the game is scum, it shouldn't be that hard to find one.

Since we're running the risk of a mod warning and I don't think we're going to get much better information today.
Vote: MoA

So now you're properly on the bandwagon, because you agree with my arguments, after MoA had posted a decent rebuttal of them to which I hadn't attacked further, and indeed I'd jumped off the bandwagon. Again, little to no arguments behind what you're saying, except that you agree with mine.

And probably the most damning bit of it all is our hurry-up warning. We've had no calls from the mod to hurry up, and town should take as much time as they need to figure out who is scum. Especially as a bad lynch will put us in a really bad position (assuming both NK's hit town, if we lynch town we're down to 4-4 which requires werewolves and mafia to start attacking each other for us to win), we need all the time we can get, thus this call to hurry up is a scumtell. Big, big big scumtell.


Tl;dr: No posts of actual substance himself, throws weak suspicions out then jumps off as soon as he gets questioned about them, jumped onto the MoA attack with no reasoning after I'd jumped off, and the last post urging us to hurry up and throwing the fictional 'at risk of mod warning' at us; scumtell after scumtell.

And thus, I Vote: Tokol. This one wont be coming off for a while I think.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Thu May 14, 2009 10:38 am UTC

Yeah, looking at Tokol's posts together, he seems really scummy. It also seems like he is trying to communicate to the other team that he is willing to work with them.

Tokol wrote:I feel like the Werewolves and Mafia will probably try to help each other out this early in the game. It must be their love of killing townies.


I do wonder whether or not that would just lead to him being NK'd by the other team. The hurryingness only helps scum, and makes it more likely for us to lynch a townie. I want to hear what he has to say, but a vote is not miles away.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby moody7277 » Thu May 14, 2009 2:32 pm UTC

Vote: Tokol

I agree with dedalus that this guy should be taken out. Will read through later for D2 prospects.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Christophoros » Thu May 14, 2009 3:19 pm UTC

OKay, first off, I agree with Dedalus that there's something off about Tokol. He doesn't seem quite right.

However, I don't think he's looking quite as suspicious as you're making out. I think you're overstating quite a lot of things.
Spoiler:
dedalus wrote:Now, post content:
Hey guys. Confirming. I'm out of town, and I won't have better than rare Internet access until Monday. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I don't have anything very substantive to post at the moment. The seer claim and protection seems like a good strategy to reduce our odds of losing a cop-role night one.

He's jumped onto someone else's actions saying 'seems like a good idea'. Nothing of his own here.

Not posting a page each time you say something doesn't mean you're scum. It just means you have other things to do than devote huge amounts of time to this game.
dedalus wrote:
I feel like the Werewolves and Mafia will probably try to help each other out this early in the game. It must be their love of killing townies.

I have a minor suspicion of Christo right now, but that's definitely not anything to go on. The talk of MoA as anti-town has also riled my suspicion. Nothing here to go on though, except maybe to converse.

I've already said I don't like 'feels'. 'feels', 'seems', 'I think' etc, are bad words for any townie to be using; they give a view without any reasoning. This means that other people may be influenced by a view; 'x thinks y is scum therefore y must be looking scummy', whereas feelings that cannot be explained are quite often based on biased or flawed logic and thus could be quite incorrect. In the same way, these are brilliant tools for mafia, they allow suspicions to be directed at people based on little or no evidence, and should the argument be called into question it is very easily retracted. So yeah, to me those words are scumtells.

The minor suspicion of Chris comes under the same category as 'feels', and if anything it's introducing an opinion that shouldn't even be expressed in a mafia game. Right now, I feel everyone is scummy. I think Josiah is scummy, and he's confirmed town. And I'm not the only one. As such, your minor suspicion reeks of scum. You've also associated yourself slightly with the MoA is scum team, but again, not enough to look like you're jumping on the bandwagon. As for 'Nothing here to go on though, except maybe to converse'... in that case, why post? Thus, this post is a mix of other peoples arguments and unwarranted suspicions, and I'm fairly sure it's only there to give the 'I'm not lurking feel'.

I also don't like words like "feels", and "seems". I complained vociferously about them in my other game. It seems, however, that in this community letting your feelings be known is common. If everyone does it, it can't be a real scumtell.
dedalus wrote:
It's just what I was thinking after a read through. The number and lack of content of Christo's posts came off to me with the "I'm paying attention, but lurking to avoid tells" way.

Since my last post, Christo posted a good explanation of what I was saying on why we shouldn't count on the anti-town factions not helping each other out. It's better content, but hasn't really helped my suspicions. I'll still be keeping an eye on him.

Well, considering the number and lack of content of your own posts, it seems like you've been doing much the same here. And now, you've jumped off the Chris train because he's posted what... 3 lines? 'I'll still be keeping an eye on him.'... you're buckling under my FoS, but trying to retain some credibility.

I was a train? Wow. It must have been a small one, because I sure as hell didn't notice it. He voiced a minor suspicion, that's not a train.
dedalus wrote:
I generally agree with dedalus. He seems town and his arguments make sense.

Also, come on people. This is a mini and after more than a week of day one, we really don't have a strong lynch target! More than a third of the game is scum, it shouldn't be that hard to find one.

Since we're running the risk of a mod warning and I don't think we're going to get much better information today.
Vote: MoA

So now you're properly on the bandwagon, because you agree with my arguments, after MoA had posted a decent rebuttal of them to which I hadn't attacked further, and indeed I'd jumped off the bandwagon. Again, little to no arguments behind what you're saying, except that you agree with mine.

And probably the most damning bit of it all is our hurry-up warning. We've had no calls from the mod to hurry up, and town should take as much time as they need to figure out who is scum. Especially as a bad lynch will put us in a really bad position (assuming both NK's hit town, if we lynch town we're down to 4-4 which requires werewolves and mafia to start attacking each other for us to win), we need all the time we can get, thus this call to hurry up is a scumtell. Big, big big scumtell.

This bit however, seems fairly major. We've had no notice from the mod that we're taking too long, and discussion isn't stagnant. I don't think we're in line for a warning yet. Hurrying us up is a majorly bad thing.

I'm sorry for the huge quotes, but it seemed the best way to respond to each part individually.

If he does turn up scum, I've probably just signed my own death warrant, but I do think you're being overly aggressive here.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Kipper » Thu May 14, 2009 6:56 pm UTC

Rakysh wrote:Yeah, looking at Tokol's posts together, he seems really scummy. It also seems like he is trying to communicate to the other team that he is willing to work with them.

Tokol wrote:I feel like the Werewolves and Mafia will probably try to help each other out this early in the game. It must be their love of killing townies.


I do wonder whether or not that would just lead to him being NK'd by the other team. The hurryingness only helps scum, and makes it more likely for us to lynch a townie. I want to hear what he has to say, but a vote is not miles away.

Rakysh, have you done anything recently other than following Dedalus?
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby tokol » Thu May 14, 2009 6:58 pm UTC

I'm not used to the (typical?) glacial pace of these fora games. I was in Pokemafia as a replacement, and kept myself pretty damn busy the few days I had before getting lynched.

I'm in the habit of just saying what I think, versus explaining things out. Like, I suggested that we shouldn't count on scum saving the other faction's cop/seer (only MoA seems to vehemently disagree). It seems fairly common sense; as an uninformed majority we shouldn't be making assumptions about what informed parties might do. They can WIFOM everything we're saying out on these boards. Of course, I couldn't weigh in on whether or not FTC pays off, since I've never seen it in action before.

I thought I was being upfront with the 'hey I'm still here' post. I know I've been lynched before for simply having nothing to say for too long. There was a lull in the game during that time, so I figured I could keep myself in the game a little better.

I stand by what I've said, but with two votes (and more indicated ready) I feel like I need to defend myself.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby myrrh7x » Thu May 14, 2009 7:53 pm UTC

2 MoA (Tokol, Josiah)
2 Tokol (dedalus, Moody)
1 Dedalus (Fishy)
6 to lynch.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Thu May 14, 2009 11:48 pm UTC

@Chris:
Spoiler:
Not posting a page each time you say something doesn't mean you're scum. It just means you have other things to do than devote huge amounts of time to this game.

I wasn't saying that him not posting a page was a scumtell, but thus far he hasn't posted much content of his own. Scum tend to make posts so that they don't get lynched for lurking, but they don't like making massive accusations or huge content posts, because it gives material on them that can be dissected, and usually the accusations they end up making are at people they know are town (or at least not their scum faction). It's much better for scum to wait for bandwagons to start that aren't directed at their team, then jump on. Tokol fits all these criteria.

I also don't like words like "feels", and "seems". I complained vociferously about them in my other game. It seems, however, that in this community letting your feelings be known is common. If everyone does it, it can't be a real scumtell.


By itself, it may not be. It depends on the player; e.g. my arguments directed at MoA about his constant mention of the fact that he is town aren't that big a deal because he does that all the time, scum or town. However, against tokol, for most of his posts he generally puts a bit more reasoning there then just 'I feel like x is scum', 'I feel like werewolves and mafia will help each other'. And I will agree with Rakysh that he might have been trying to offer a teaming up with the mafia.

I was a train? Wow. It must have been a small one, because I sure as hell didn't notice it. He voiced a minor suspicion, that's not a train.

Twas a metaphor. What I meant was that he voiced a suspicion against you for lurking when heaps of other people are doing it, and then when questioned put up marginal defence and downgraded to 'I'm keeping my eye on him'. That, to me, is a scumtell.

More importantly, all these points add up, and the whole accusation is greater then the sum of the parts.

I'm an aggressive player. I probably do need to tone it back a bit, but as no-one's really making any big moves in this game, me being aggressive is me keeping the game moving. Also, after sticking my neck out this far, chances are mafia or werewolves are going to get me N1, so I want to get all my suspicions out there and help the town before I can't talk any more.


and again at Tokol:
Spoiler:
Like, I suggested that we shouldn't count on scum saving the other faction's cop/seer (only MoA seems to vehemently disagree)

No, you said that you 'felt' that mafia and werewolves would help each other out tonight. And you chucked a joke on the end... not saying humour isn't good in mafia, but what you said there is miles away from what you're claiming now. Hell, even you admitted the wording was dodgy later on.

It seems fairly common sense; as an uninformed majority we shouldn't be making assumptions about what informed parties might do. They can WIFOM everything we're saying out on these boards.

Most of what we do here is make assumptions. I mean hell, doc/angel's role is built upon making assumptions about who might kill who. Everyone's accusations are based upon the assumption that scummy people do certain things in certain ways. And if people pop WIFOM, they only make themselves more suspicious.

I thought I was being upfront with the 'hey I'm still here' post. I know I've been lynched before for simply having nothing to say for too long. There was a lull in the game during that time, so I figured I could keep myself in the game a little better.

If we look at all the other players, plenty of them lurk and don't come out till they have something to say, and we don't jump down their throats. Town comes into the game with the expectation to attack other players, and not to be attacked themselves because they're not scum. Only scum come into the game with the expectation that they will be attacked, and as such make pre-emptive posts trying to direct any attention off themselves, which is what you did.

and that's about it.
Tl;dr: Tokol's defence of his 'I think scum factions will help each other' post involves changing the wording and nuance of said post; scumtell. And he really hasn't made a decent rebuttal against any other points I made.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby tokol » Fri May 15, 2009 2:25 pm UTC

dedalus wrote:Tl;dr: Tokol's defence of his 'I think scum factions will help each other' post involves changing the wording and nuance of said post; scumtell. And he really hasn't made a decent rebuttal against any other points I made.


Dedalus, I don't think you're scum. But seriously, you're as bad as my girlfriend the way you're accusing an explanation of being a complete reversal. I've said what I've said and I've been put on the defensive most of this game, okay? How can I rebut when your claim is "you said x, that seems scummy to me"? I've already gone over why I've posted what I've posted. For now, I'll leave you to draw your own opinions, but try to believe me.

moody7277 wrote:Vote: Tokol

I agree with dedalus that this guy should be taken out. Will read through later for D2 prospects.


In the case I get lynched before being able to post again, I'd like to point out how eager moody was to get on my band wagon.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Fri May 15, 2009 3:42 pm UTC

What are you trying to say? There's no way that he knows you are confirmed anything, unless he is scum, in which case it was a rather newbieish mistake. Maybe he just thinks you should be lynched.

Dedalus- keep accusing people, don't tone it down. Gives us more info. If you really think you are on to something, make sure we know it is obvious.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sat May 16, 2009 4:15 am UTC

tokol wrote:Dedalus, I don't think you're scum. But seriously, you're as bad as my girlfriend the way you're accusing an explanation of being a complete reversal. I've said what I've said and I've been put on the defensive most of this game, okay? How can I rebut when your claim is "you said x, that seems scummy to me"? I've already gone over why I've posted what I've posted. For now, I'll leave you to draw your own opinions, but try to believe me.


Firstly, why did you put in the bit about not thinking i'm scum here? Sucking up to me isn't going to stop me from pointing fingers at you.

Secondly, the point is that you DID change what you said.
I feel like the Werewolves and Mafia will probably try to help each other out this early in the game. It must be their love of killing townies. ;)

Like, I suggested that we shouldn't count on scum saving the other faction's cop/seer (only MoA seems to vehemently disagree)

In the original quote, you made a fairly pointed statement that you 'feel' like the two factions shouldn't help each other out. This suggests that you have more information then the average townie as to what werewolves and mafia will try to do; aka you know what you want to do to win the game.

In the second quote, you say that you made a completely different argument; instead of saying 'i think they will do this' you now claim you said 'we shouldn't just assume that they wont'. The second idea is a very good one; murphys law definitely holds in mafia. However, your first statement was NOT this. It's only a slight changing of the intent of the words, but it makes a world of difference... and a defence that involves claiming a falsehood is a scumtell.

Don't worry, we will/have noted who is and isn't jumping onto the bandwagon; Kipper's already questioned Rakysh about it.

@Rakysh; what moody did can be a scumtell, in the same way that Kipper's pointed a finger at you for agreeing with/following me. It has to be taken in context, but yeah, it does happen.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Sat May 16, 2009 6:42 am UTC

Ok. Still relatively new to this, thanks.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sun May 17, 2009 11:01 am UTC

24 hours and no posting... this game is slowly dying out :(.
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Sun May 17, 2009 11:56 am UTC

We need a lynch, just to save the game. ATM, it seems to be between Tokol and MoA. (looking at votes)

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sun May 17, 2009 12:29 pm UTC

More then anything, we need the 4-5 lurkers in the game to come foward and do something. Wouldn't be surprised if most of the scum were hiding there and we couldn't pick them out of all the townies.

Hopefully after the weekend is over people will start playing again.
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