Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 3) The End.

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Dromtry
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Dromtry » Tue May 05, 2009 7:58 pm UTC

These review sessions are kicking my ass. This is the last week of them, but I don't know how much I'll be able to do next week (9 exams in five days, *gulp*).

I haven't really developed any 'suspicions' or anything, so I don't know how I should vote here. As I read everyone's posts, some of what people are saying makes sense. But this subtle trickery I can't pick up on very well.

I guess we should lynch someone? I don't really know who yet though. Honestly, if Josiah hadn't claimed/not been countered I'd have been suspicious of him. That was a huge wall of text wicked early, and even if he was a 'vanilla' he seemed to be stirring stuff up.
~steve

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dedalus
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Tue May 05, 2009 9:51 pm UTC

Yeah, I thought the same until he claimed...

Regarding mafia-werewolf collusion, I think we've detailed the case of why mafia shouldn't target seer and vice versa. I'd assume both teams would be more interested in finding their respective doctors and killing them, or getting the number of town total down to a smaller value, but if one kills the other's cop, then there's a lot more focus on finding the first group which is unbeneficial to them. Once again though, really comes down to the players.

Tokol, hear what you're saying, but it's the fact that you pointed the finger at a single one out of our many lurkers (and one who is new afaik), and the wording of your comment re: werewolf-mafia collusion. It's not THAT much to go on, you just seem more scum then the average player right now.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed May 06, 2009 1:27 pm UTC

I may not be able to log in for a few days, as I am leaving right now on some company travel. And, I don't feel like casting a vote at the moment, since things are still just getting rolling here, so hopefully you all don't mind me being quiet for a few days. Have fun!
Kipper wrote:SERIOUSLY. Listen to MoA, he knows his stuff. . . High five MoA!
(not funny, but true)
ameretrifle wrote:MoA is an astute logician and is, in fact, directly related to Sherlock Holmes on his mother's side.
(ditto for this one)

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby tokol » Wed May 06, 2009 3:56 pm UTC

While I'm still sticking by what I said, the phrasing was pretty wonky. Honestly, I'm still getting a feel for forum mafia vs IRL mafia. Right now I'm trying to lean towards being more active in discussions. This is a fairly meta-self defense, so I'm not sure how well it will fly. I still hope you'll cut me some slack, at least for now.

On the actual subject of who to lynch, I honestly don't have any strong ideas in any direction. It seems a good strategy to focus suspicion on a player and force them to defend themselves. That way, even if they avoid suspicion, you have lots of text from them to analyze later. That's my take, but it seems like I'm doing my part in the process. :wink:

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Christophoros » Wed May 06, 2009 10:55 pm UTC

Problem with focusing on one player and forcing them to defend themselves is that you actually need to have a good number of reasons to suspect them, otherwise they've got nothing to defend against. It's hard to defend against "My gut says X is scummy."
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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Gojoe » Wed May 06, 2009 11:28 pm UTC

OK I am here now. Sorry for lurking, I was sick the past couple of days. Spent as much time away from a computer screen.

Anyway. First off, yes, no lynch is a BAD idea. This game is not about playing with numbers. It is about trying to keep as many townies alive.

And I would just like to say that I still think the cop claim was a bad idea. Despite what your reasons are. I do not think your reasons are valid. Pretty much cops stay alive by dancing a dangerous line. Be townie enough to not be lynched. But be scummy enough to not get nk'd.

Also. if anyone ever claims doctor I will vote for them. That is just silly.
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Thu May 07, 2009 12:33 am UTC

But at L-1 it's silly not to claim, unless you can get a really strong case to fend off your back. That being said, claiming doc or angel at L-1 is the perfect way for scum to suicide to draw the doc/angel out, so a doc/angel claim has to be a bit more then just 'I'm the doctor'.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Thu May 07, 2009 4:15 am UTC

First I'd like to apologize for being inactive the past few days -- I have finals this week and next.

I see my vote for a no-lynch has drawn a considerable amount of criticism and an almost copious amount of discussion. Perfect.
kipper wrote:If we no-lynch, night kills happen, potentially hitting a doc and screwing josiah, then the day starts, and we're in the same situation.

Out of curiosity, what do you think happens if we lynch the doctor? If he gets NK'd, my understanding is that he can still save someone that night - but not if we lynch him, of course.

I stand by the opinion I expressed earlier that, in the absence of suspicion, it's better to no-lynch than to kill a random person.

Of course, now that the Master of All has made his scumminess quite clear, I feel comfortable with my decision to Unvote: No-Lynch.


Gojoe wrote:
And I would just like to say that I still think the cop claim was a bad idea. Despite what your reasons are. I do not think your reasons are valid. Pretty much cops stay alive by dancing a dangerous line. Be townie enough to not be lynched. But be scummy enough to not get nk'd.


Yes, I love dancing dangerous lines, especially being new here.

Anyway, I suspect MasterofAll for several reasons, including
MasterOfAll wrote: So, I am willing to lynch anyone other than him here on day 1.

...No. You don't lynch just anyone; you lynch someone you think is scum.
ibid. wrote:Yeah, I still think it would be okay for the cop to also claim, but obviously, if the cop would rather take his chances being protected by anonymity, then I understand.

Perhaps it would, but the payoff for both mafia and werewolf factions is enormous if each kill the others' cop. They can't be completely sure the other group will reciprocate, but chances are higher than comfortable that they might still consider it a gamble worth making.

...and others that have been pointed out.
VOTE: MasterOfAll

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Thu May 07, 2009 4:38 am UTC

Yay finally some fingerpointing that's not from me :D. Seeing as he's taken leave for a few days, looks like the game is on hiatus until he defends himself or another bandwagon starts. Despite the evidence against him, lynching him without giving a chance to defend himself is as bad an idea as a no-lynch. And we can use the time to find out who else is scummy.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Thu May 07, 2009 6:29 am UTC

dedalus wrote:Yay finally some fingerpointing that's not from me :D. Seeing as he's taken leave for a few days, looks like the game is on hiatus until he defends himself or another bandwagon starts. Despite the evidence against him, lynching him without giving a chance to defend himself is as bad an idea as a no-lynch. And we can use the time to find out who else is scummy.


Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. I'll temporarily UNVOTE

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Thu May 07, 2009 7:46 am UTC

Mine's staying up there even if he's gone... I'll take it off if we're threatening a dangerous bandwagon but 2 votes is hardly an issue. Not going to tell you how to vote though Josiah.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Thu May 07, 2009 8:27 am UTC

dedalus wrote:Mine's staying up there even if he's gone... I'll take it off if we're threatening a dangerous bandwagon but 2 votes is hardly an issue. Not going to tell you how to vote though Josiah.

I'm looking for someone else to go after in the meantime, and trying to decide whether to act on such suspicions now or tonight...

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Fri May 08, 2009 6:09 am UTC

Hmm... reading back over the thread, I think I semi-trust Rakysh and dedalus, and I have my finger of suspicion on Gojoe, for this
Gojoe wrote: Pretty much cops stay alive by dancing a dangerous line. Be townie enough to not be lynched. But be scummy enough to not get nk'd.

Also. if anyone ever claims doctor I will vote for them. That is just silly.

and other things he's said.

And of course, I'll be quite shocked if I find out at the end of all this that MoA wasn't some sort of scum.

...Question: since night1 hasn't happened yet, do the mafia/werewolves know their teammates yet?

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Fri May 08, 2009 7:40 am UTC

Why is that scummy from gojoe? It seems to be pretty much true. If you are an unclaimed cop, you should do your best not to be lynched while still not atracting too much attention from the scum.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Fri May 08, 2009 10:06 am UTC

@josiah usually the posts going out to werewolves/mafia tell them who their teammates are. It's down to the mod's discretion, but it's a safe assumption.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Fri May 08, 2009 7:12 pm UTC

dedalus wrote:@josiah usually the posts going out to werewolves/mafia tell them who their teammates are. It's down to the mod's discretion, but it's a safe assumption.

That's why I asked the question. It was actually directed at the mod..who appears not to have seen it yet

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby myrrh7x » Fri May 08, 2009 7:38 pm UTC

Sorry about that.
Questions to the mod are usually bolded so I can pay attention to them.
The Mafia/Werewolves know who their respective teammates are, as per usual.
And they don't know the other faction, to be clear.
Remember, their goal is to wipe out the townies AND the other faction.
So...

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby josiahstevenson » Sat May 09, 2009 7:04 am UTC

Rakysh, it seems scummy for gojoe to say, "you know you shouldn't have claimed but done something more dangerous instead." You don't think that's scummy?

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Sat May 09, 2009 7:34 am UTC

Well, I think perhaps I am a little too trusting sometimes. It is more dangerous, but it does lead to (possibly) a better situation, where the docs can save the most active townie, thus preventing a NK. This way is fine too though. However, I suppose you are right, and with this little to go on until MoA returns, I don't mind questioning Gojoe.

*prepares thumb-screws*

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sat May 09, 2009 9:09 am UTC

Gojoe has made a fairly decent point; anyone who appears too townie will usually be a target for NK. Any power role that needs to stay alive is much better off seeming not 100% town as it increases their survivability chances each night.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby moody7277 » Sat May 09, 2009 12:31 pm UTC

I'm gonna be gone Sunday and Monday, so no lurker accusations against me por favor.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby myrrh7x » Sat May 09, 2009 2:05 pm UTC

1 MoA (Dedalus)

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Kipper » Sat May 09, 2009 2:59 pm UTC

josiahstevenson wrote:Rakysh, it seems scummy for gojoe to say, "you know you shouldn't have claimed but done something more dangerous instead." You don't think that's scummy?

More dangerous?
Josiah, that's how a power role plays the game.
You are suspicious enough to avoid an NK, and trustworthy enough to not get lynched. If anything, the cop claim + doc protect is more dangerous. Because once the doctor/angel inevitably goes down, the cop is going down with em.
I see no problems in his post.
Amy: (11:06:09 PM) ***Amy huggles Kipper
Amy: (11:06:13 PM) Amy: Leave my fishy alone.

[3:05pm] Amy: NO TOUCHING KIPPER
[3:05pm] Amy: MY FISHY!

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby tokol » Sat May 09, 2009 11:10 pm UTC

Since we're all waiting around for MoA, I'm just posting to let you guys know I'm still active.

I'll have to remember the bit about power roles needing to walk the line. Though, scum will avoid NKing them so they can throw them under the bus come lynch time.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Gojoe » Sat May 09, 2009 11:20 pm UTC

Also if you really want proof that I actually think the walking the line is true, I can grab links to other games where I have said the exact same thing.
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

Feeble accompanying guitar.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Christophoros » Sat May 09, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

I don't see a problem with the walking the line strategy. It seems to make logical sense.
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sun May 10, 2009 2:10 am UTC

Honestly I'll respect Gojoe enough to think he wouldn't make that newbish a mistake, and his argument holds very true. Josiah, your statistics are good but honestly, most of mafia isn't random and playing the game beats playing the math any day.

Right now I'm still suspicious of Tokol... his accusation seemed a lot like a bus to me, and his last post was basically saying 'I'm not lurking, don't lynch me!!!'. Not much to go on, but if we're looking for other hunches while waiting for MoA to return with a defence before we bandwagon, then he's my pick. Definitely a better choice then Gojoe.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby MasterOfAll » Sun May 10, 2009 3:07 am UTC

dedalus wrote:But at L-1 it's silly not to claim, unless you can get a really strong case to fend off your back. That being said, claiming doc or angel at L-1 is the perfect way for scum to suicide to draw the doc/angel out, so a doc/angel claim has to be a bit more then just 'I'm the doctor'.

I don't understand why you think that the real doctor or real angel would bother to counterclaim. Trust me, everyone but you knows that claiming doc/angel does no good. I am sure you will eventually learn this, but in the meantime, just believe us. (I was going to say "Just trust Gojoe", but of course, we all know Gojoe canNEVER be trusted.)

Anyway, so 2 of you seem to think I am scum. I just got back, so I did not take the time to really figure out what it is that has you attacking me. Can you please clarify what it is that I need to respond to?
Kipper wrote:SERIOUSLY. Listen to MoA, he knows his stuff. . . High five MoA!
(not funny, but true)
ameretrifle wrote:MoA is an astute logician and is, in fact, directly related to Sherlock Holmes on his mother's side.
(ditto for this one)

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sun May 10, 2009 3:45 am UTC

19th post down on the 2nd page... think that makes it post 59... there's my accusations against you. Josiah's made his own points a bit further on post 88? (3rd page 8th post)... anyway, your blaze-faire attitude towards us seems to be an attempt to shrug off our questions rather then answering them. Oh and it's not just 2 of us, Rakysh and Tokol have both made mention of 'waiting around for MoA'... a fairly safe assumption this means waiting for your defence.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby MasterOfAll » Sun May 10, 2009 3:53 am UTC

OK, I just read the 2 posts where you and Josiah voted for me.

Really, you are both full of so much crap that I can't even be bothered to respond.

Vote for me if you want, since that will at least keep the cop/seer from investigating me tonight, so hopefully they actually find who they are looking for, although odds are still against that, of course.
Kipper wrote:SERIOUSLY. Listen to MoA, he knows his stuff. . . High five MoA!
(not funny, but true)
ameretrifle wrote:MoA is an astute logician and is, in fact, directly related to Sherlock Holmes on his mother's side.
(ditto for this one)

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sun May 10, 2009 4:33 am UTC

Slightly shocking to say the least... I'm not going to respond to that as it's borderline flaming.
Either way, my vote's hardly about to change now, so I've done about as much as I can do... Up to the rest of the town now.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Sun May 10, 2009 6:21 am UTC

MoA, if you are actually town, that was a really selfish and silly thing to do. I just can't see the point in doing what you did if you are town.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Christophoros » Sun May 10, 2009 1:48 pm UTC

MasterOfAll wrote:Really, you are both full of so much crap that I can't even be bothered to respond.

Boy, are you making enemies fast.
Vote:MasterOfAll

Seriously, make some attempt to defend yourself!
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

"Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement."

Never Forget

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby MasterOfAll » Sun May 10, 2009 6:44 pm UTC

Christophoros wrote:Seriously, make some attempt to defend yourself!


OK. Let's see. Dedalus thinks I'm scummy because we disagree on the merits of a dual FTC strategy, and he doesn't like the way I explained that if I was scum I would not want to intentionally help out the other scum faction. So, I still stand behind my reasoning, and really don't see how what I said sounds scummy, so it is really hard to refute. I mean, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are anti-town.

And Josiah did not like the way that I stated that I wouldn't vote for him on day 1. Gee, sorry for believing the cop-claim. Sure, if we get any reasonable scumtells on day 1, then we can go ahead and lynch that player. But, I will say it again, right now I consider you all fair game except for Josiah. And, again, I cannot see how saying that I believe the cop-claim is the least bit scummy, so there is really nothing to refute. Hence, my claim that they are both full of bull.

And finally, as a vanilla townie, it would be much better to lose me on day one then one of the town power roles, and maybe we will get lucky and have some scum on scum crime tonight to make up for lynching a townie.

So yeah, I stand behind my previous statements. If you don't like it, feel free to lynch me as punishment.
Kipper wrote:SERIOUSLY. Listen to MoA, he knows his stuff. . . High five MoA!
(not funny, but true)
ameretrifle wrote:MoA is an astute logician and is, in fact, directly related to Sherlock Holmes on his mother's side.
(ditto for this one)

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Rakysh » Sun May 10, 2009 7:40 pm UTC

See, that was all you needed to say at the start. I agree; Dedalus should stop FOSing people who disagree with him on overall strategy. Saying he's full of crap however was completely not constructive.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Christophoros » Sun May 10, 2009 10:18 pm UTC

Thankyou, I just wanted to hear your side of it.

Unvote
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby Gojoe » Sun May 10, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

The thing with follow the cop, is that yes, it can work. But what the hell is the point of revealing yourself before you have any info? You risk being NK'd n1 without helping the town at all. It honestly smells like a false claim gone wrong.
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

Feeble accompanying guitar.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Sun May 10, 2009 11:27 pm UTC

@Rakysh; I wasn't just FoSing him for disputing my theories, he made the post claiming that he 'feels' like it's still ok for cop to claim, despite arguments constructed against said claim... he didn't actually make a logical point of his own. That, as well as the 'I'd do this if i was scum... but i'm definitely town'. MoA seems very very willing to point out the fact that he's definitely town, above everything else. However, after reading past games with him in it this seems to be the norm, so this is less of a tell then I thought it was. Doesn't excuse him either way, I've yet to find a game where he is scum, but I would assume he'd act the same... Doubt he's got a problem with lying.

@MoA; Seeing as it's my 2nd game... and in my first game I died N1, could you cut me some slack with the 'full of bull'? I'm not saying 'I'm a noob, take it easy on me', or anything else, but enough abuse plx. I'm not picking on you as a person, you just seriously seem the most scummy to me.

Now, for my argument. Firstly, I'll explain my post #39 a bit better:
MasterOfAll wrote:So, if I was one of the anti-town players, I would try to convince my partner that our best chance of winning would be by leaving both the cop and seer alone on the first night.

But, since I am town, I will try to convince as many people as possible to claim seer/cop (josiah already claimed seer, right?).

I'm sorry, but 'if I was, but I'm definitely not' is iffy to me. You would claim to be town whether or not you were scum, and explicitly hypothesising what you would do if you were scum is emphasizing that claim to be town a bit too much to be believable.

Basically, you seem very bent upon emphasizing the fact that you ARE town. If you were town, then I hardly see how it's important to make specific mention of this fact. Especially seeing as the two points do not hold that congruent; If you were scum you'd try to convince your partner to do something, BUT since you're town you're going to do something somewhat unrelated. There is some logic there, but more then anything it seems like an emphasis on the 'srsly, I'm town' more then anything.

Yeah, I still think it would be okay for the cop to also claim, but obviously, if the cop would rather take his chances being protected by anonymity, then I understand.


Post 39 (I think... can't see a post count so I'm doing my own here), I put foward a reason why cop shouldn't claim. As such, this line seems pretty damn scummy. I know your predisposition towards ftc, but it's a touch lighthanded for an experienced town, and you're not new afaik.


What I meant by 'lighthanded' was that you didn't put foward any argument, instead you just said, in the face of all argument that 'I still think it would be ok'. Also, seeing as in your quote above you talked about 'convincing' the cop to come foward, you've done a massive backflip. Your arguments for this are very wishy-washy, and the only thing you're very definite about is the fact that you are town... wishy-washiness is a big big scumtell.

On top of this, your 2nd to last post had a nasty little hidden WIFOM:
Vote for me if you want, since that will at least keep the cop/seer from investigating me tonight, so hopefully they actually find who they are looking for, although odds are still against that, of course.

Big WIFOM here... you're calling for people to vote for you for a very dodgy reason... need i explain this more?

Also, you calling us 'full of crap' sounds like you're annoyed at being caught out for something that seems so insignificant to you. A real townie would be a lot more helpful to his townie mates. It's obvious you cant OMGUS us because Josiah is pretty much beyond question town. So instead you're just insulting us.

Anyway, out of time for posting. I would say this though, since I'm fairly new here, I'd like some feedback from the games lurkers... especially the more experienced players. What do others think of my suspicions?
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby MasterOfAll » Mon May 11, 2009 3:12 am UTC

Gojoe wrote:The thing with follow the cop, is that yes, it can work. But what the hell is the point of revealing yourself before you have any info? You risk being NK'd n1 without helping the town at all. It honestly smells like a false claim gone wrong.
If there is no doctor/angel, then yes, the cop/seer would be foolish to claim before knowing anything. And then, he should still try to avoid claiming unless necessary, since once he does claim his days are very limited.

However, when there IS a doctor/angel, then the early claim actually prevents getting randomly NK'd before telling other players anything. Of course, there is the whole guessing game between doctor/angel and the scum factions, since the doctor/angel might try protecting someone OTHER than cop/seer.

So, yeah, I think it makes good sense in this setup to make the early claim.

And now, to respond to the tl;dr post from dedalus . . .
Spoiler:
dedalus wrote:@Rakysh; I wasn't just FoSing him for disputing my theories, he made the post claiming that he 'feels' like it's still ok for cop to claim, despite arguments constructed against said claim... he didn't actually make a logical point of his own. That, as well as the 'I'd do this if i was scum... but i'm definitely town'. MoA seems very very willing to point out the fact that he's definitely town, above everything else. However, after reading past games with him in it this seems to be the norm, so this is less of a tell then I thought it was. Doesn't excuse him either way, I've yet to find a game where he is scum, but I would assume he'd act the same... Doubt he's got a problem with lying.
Well, this is addressed to Rakysh, but it is all about me, so I will respond. First of all, where the HELL did I ever say "feel" in any of my posts when I was saying that I thought having the cop claim is a good idea? Sure, I didn't go into the intimate details since I made the assumption that I am playing with intelligent people who do not need everything completely spelled out. You say that I "didn't actually make a logical point of [my] own"??? Are you TRYING to piss me off? Was I just being too obvious for you? My god, what part of this is SO hard to grasp? Point 1: There is no reason for mafia to kill seer or werewolves to kill cop, since they actually want those players alive to out the competition. Point 2: With the doctor to protect cop from mafia and angel to protect seer from werewolves, we might as well have both of them claim on day one so that protectors can do their thing.
dedalus wrote:@MoA; Seeing as it's my 2nd game... and in my first game I died N1, could you cut me some slack with the 'full of bull'? I'm not saying 'I'm a noob, take it easy on me', or anything else, but enough abuse plx. I'm not picking on you as a person, you just seriously seem the most scummy to me.
Dude, dedalus, I am NOT attacking you personally. I was just pointing out that your arguments against me do not have any substance.
dedalus wrote:Now, for my argument. Firstly, I'll explain my post #39 a bit better:
MasterOfAll wrote:So, if I was one of the anti-town players, I would try to convince my partner that our best chance of winning would be by leaving both the cop and seer alone on the first night.

But, since I am town, I will try to convince as many people as possible to claim seer/cop (josiah already claimed seer, right?).

I'm sorry, but 'if I was, but I'm definitely not' is iffy to me. You would claim to be town whether or not you were scum, and explicitly hypothesizing what you would do if you were scum is emphasizing that claim to be town a bit too much to be believable.

Basically, you seem very bent upon emphasizing the fact that you ARE town. If you were town, then I hardly see how it's important to make specific mention of this fact. Especially seeing as the two points do not hold that congruent; If you were scum you'd try to convince your partner to do something, BUT since you're town you're going to do something somewhat unrelated. There is some logic there, but more then anything it seems like an emphasis on the 'srsly, I'm town' more then anything.
Well, I do not know why you are focusing on the "I am town" part of my post. I really wasn't making any emphasis on "TOWN" in that post. But, since you seem to have completely missed my point (and even said that my 2 sentences are "unrelated") I suppose I need to elaborate . . .
1a. Werewolves should leave claimed seer alone since he will most likely be protected by angel.
1b. Werewolves should leave claimed cop (if it happens) alone since they don't want him dead at this point of the game.
1c. Mafia should leave claimed seer alone since they don't want him dead at this point of the game.
1d. Mafia should leave claimed cop (if it happens) alone since they don't want him dead at this point of the game.
2a. I would like to see more seer/cop claims because if we have 1 of each that means they are most likely telling the truth and we can then believe what they tell us, and they can be protected from the faction that wants each dead.
2b. I would like to see more seer/cop claims because if we have more than 1 of each then we have additional info on who is scum and just need to sort out who is who (although I really would not expect anyone to false claim unless they had already picked up some votes and were likely to be lynched, since a false claim can easily be proven to be false)
dedalus wrote:
Yeah, I still think it would be okay for the cop to also claim, but obviously, if the cop would rather take his chances being protected by anonymity, then I understand.


Post 39 (I think... can't see a post count so I'm doing my own here), I put foward a reason why cop shouldn't claim. As such, this line seems pretty damn scummy. I know your predisposition towards ftc, but it's a touch lighthanded for an experienced town, and you're not new afaik.


What I meant by 'lighthanded' was that you didn't put foward any argument, instead you just said, in the face of all argument that 'I still think it would be ok'. Also, seeing as in your quote above you talked about 'convincing' the cop to come foward, you've done a massive backflip. Your arguments for this are very wishy-washy, and the only thing you're very definite about is the fact that you are town... wishy-washiness is a big big scumtell.
Look, all I was saying is that I stand behind my previous statements, but I fully understand if the cop disagrees with me. This is a game. It is supposed to be fun. People are entitled to play it however they want, even if it is not the way I play it. And I really don't get this "wishy-washy" point of yours. I said I would "try to convince as many people as possible to claim seer/cop" rather than "I will give my utmost to the endeavor of having whoever was assigned the role of cop to come forth on this day one and make his identity known to all". So, a day later, I was willing to admit that the cop may disagree with me on what scum will do and prefer to take his chances being anonymous.
dedalus wrote:On top of this, your 2nd to last post had a nasty little hidden WIFOM:
Vote for me if you want, since that will at least keep the cop/seer from investigating me tonight, so hopefully they actually find who they are looking for, although odds are still against that, of course.

Big WIFOM here... you're calling for people to vote for you for a very dodgy reason... need i explain this more?

Also, you calling us 'full of crap' sounds like you're annoyed at being caught out for something that seems so insignificant to you. A real townie would be a lot more helpful to his townie mates. It's obvious you cant OMGUS us because Josiah is pretty much beyond question town. So instead you're just insulting us.

Anyway, out of time for posting. I would say this though, since I'm fairly new here, I'd like some feedback from the games lurkers... especially the more experienced players. What do others think of my suspicions?
Yes, you DO need to explain the WIFOM that you are seeing more.

Obviously I have become the focus of some attention. If I do convince you all to spare me and lynch someone else on day 1, there is a very good chance that the seer and/or cop investigates me on night one, which will then be a totally wasted investigation.

I called you 2 "full of crap" because when I went back and read why you voted for me, I didn't see anything of substance. It's that simple. And I could very easily OMGUS dedalus, but that really isn't the way I play this game. As for "being helpful to fellow townies", it is not like I am holding anything back! I don't know anything at this point of the game. I don't even have any suspicions of who is anti-town yet. And really, while I would prefer to continue playing this game, I am willing to admit that if I am lynched on day one it is at least better than having one of the town power roles lynched.

tl;dr summary . . .
I am town. I really want you all to believe I am town. I really believe if I tell you all I am town enough times you will start to believe me. Hey, did I mention that I am town? Because I totally am town! Oh yeah, I almost forgot: screw you, dedalus! :wink:
Kipper wrote:SERIOUSLY. Listen to MoA, he knows his stuff. . . High five MoA!
(not funny, but true)
ameretrifle wrote:MoA is an astute logician and is, in fact, directly related to Sherlock Holmes on his mother's side.
(ditto for this one)

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Re: Mini: Mafia And Werewolf (Day 1) An attack from two fronts

Postby dedalus » Mon May 11, 2009 4:24 am UTC

Hmmm... I had a big spiel dissecting each of these points further, but I'm not too sure that it's going to be that worthwhile. It doesn't seem that people are commenting much on this, and I'm unsure as to whether that's because this game is very very quiet, or because they don't agree with me; either way, despite whether or not you are scum, there's still at least one faction sitting there laughing because the heat is off them. That, and your arguments are thorough, and I'd expect a lot more holes in a mafia's defence... So I'll unvote for now, hopefully another player can at least come along and put their 2 cents in?

I'm not saying that I believe you're town; I have enough respect for you to think that you could bluff your way through a situation like this. However, right now I'm feeling a bit lonely racking up an argument like this against a much more experienced mafia player, so unless other people are going to agree with me then I don't see the point.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.


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