Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby Snark » Wed May 09, 2012 4:57 pm UTC

careyhammer wrote:unvote

vote: snark


I seriously have no idea what strategy to use, so i'm just kind of voting on a whim. Convince me to change my vote and why and I will probably do it.


This game isn't about voting based on people convincing you to. That's how scum get in control of lynch targets. Voting is about putting forth a concerted effort to get your own personalized reads on people and making a decision from there.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby JesseScottOwen » Wed May 09, 2012 5:09 pm UTC

careyhammer wrote:unvote

vote: snark


I seriously have no idea what strategy to use, so i'm just kind of voting on a whim. Convince me to change my vote and why and I will probably do it.


Lol^
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby ahammel » Wed May 09, 2012 5:12 pm UTC

Aaaaaaand Carey rockets to the top of the scummy behaviour list. Given his newbitude, I will let it slide for D1, however. But only for D1.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby UniqueScreenname » Wed May 09, 2012 5:50 pm UTC

I don't have a specific reason, but there seems to be a connection in my mind between hinting towards insanity and magic that makes me think of jesters. Carey's behavior at the moment seems to suggest I was right.

I can't really do an analysis right now since I'm on my phone, and it's difficult to review the past posts and type at the same time, so more content later.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby Snark » Wed May 09, 2012 6:00 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:Aaaaaaand Carey rockets to the top of the scummy behaviour list. Given his newbitude, I will let it slide for D1, however. But only for D1.

Which is what I'd expect a scummate of Carey's to say while thinking "I'll deal with her over night chat tonight."

Unvote

While I don't want to crucify newbs, it pains me to think that we'll let them get away with murder if they actually are scum, rather than newbies not knowing what to do.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby ahammel » Wed May 09, 2012 6:56 pm UTC

Snark wrote:Which is what I'd expect a scummate of Carey's to say while thinking "I'll deal with her over night chat tonight."

Unvote

While I don't want to crucify newbs, it pains me to think that we'll let them get away with murder if they actually are scum, rather than newbies not knowing what to do.

Hence the D1 grace period. You'll recall this has also been my policy in other games where neither I nor the newbie was scum
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby Snark » Wed May 09, 2012 7:10 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
Snark wrote:Which is what I'd expect a scummate of Carey's to say while thinking "I'll deal with her over night chat tonight."

Unvote

While I don't want to crucify newbs, it pains me to think that we'll let them get away with murder if they actually are scum, rather than newbies not knowing what to do.

Hence the D1 grace period. You'll recall this has also been my policy in other games where neither I nor the newbie was scum

Hence the unvote. And no new vote on you. It was just an observation.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby DaBigCheez » Wed May 09, 2012 11:01 pm UTC

Votals:
BoomFrog: 1 (JesseScottOwen)
fearless: 1 (BoomFrog)
flarpfreak: 1 (ahammel)
Snark: 1 (careyhammer)

14 players alive, 8 votes to lynch. Deadline in 48 hours.


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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby CaptainFinglass » Thu May 10, 2012 12:21 am UTC

I can't tell if Carey is scum or just eager/aggressive newbie. I'm leaning slightly scum though, for specifically saying "I vote on a whim unless some can change my mind." That's like saying I'm going to vote randomly until I get a hunt from my buddies on who to vote for. Granted, seeing as they are new, I won't vote for them tonight. But I'd suggest getting a new strategy fast, because if you're still playing like this tomorrow, I'll have no problems voting for you, newbie or not.

@Kro2 - I honestly didn't see it that way. We wouldn't have conversation anyways because scum would find out who the cops are round 2 if cops went about it like that. Everyone ignore my earlier point.

No one else strikes me as scummy, although I'm throwing a (very very very minor) FoS at Snark, because he's usually the very post happy figure out a town strategy sort of player, and he seems unusually quiet.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby matt96 » Thu May 10, 2012 12:25 am UTC

Just realized that I haven't posted here yet, I wanted to post earlier that if we are going to do flavor based speculation, we should probably do spec on who scum would be, as figuring out what we are dealing with as far as scum goes is more helpful than figuring out what we have to work with on towns side.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby Mostlynormal » Thu May 10, 2012 12:30 am UTC

I think it's funny that carey's first and second votes were bandwagonning and OMGUS respectively, the two cardinal sins of mafia. :D

However I don't really think we can conclude anything from it. I don't like the fact that we have to give newbies a bit of a free pass in the beginning but I think it's necessary to avoid what amounts to a random lynch.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby Snark » Thu May 10, 2012 1:39 am UTC

matt96 wrote:Just realized that I haven't posted here yet, I wanted to post earlier that if we are going to do flavor based speculation, we should probably do spec on who scum would be, as figuring out what we are dealing with as far as scum goes is more helpful than figuring out what we have to work with on towns side.

I've been looking forward to this as well. I'd do it myself, but I have no flavor knowledge.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby UniqueScreenname » Thu May 10, 2012 3:44 am UTC

In reviewing the activity of the day, the most scummy thing to me was CaptainFinglass' opinion on self-investigating, but his reply seems honest as of now. So basically I have no real pings. Carey's behavior is of course textbook scummy, and as a newbie, I feel like it could be a lack of understanding game dynamics, but I also feel like if he was town, he would be a little less eager to lynch and more eager to watch and learn. I'd like to get more information before I make a decision though, so I'll just FoS for now.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby flarpfreak » Thu May 10, 2012 3:56 am UTC

ahammel wrote:Flarpfreak is putting the biggest ping on my scumdar for extremely unlikely role-sanity speculation. It reads like scum trying to spread wine to me.

Are you referring to my random.org comment? :P In all seriousness though, I simply mean to say that even with a confirmed role claim, sanity leaves more room for doubt than would be nice.
Wait, what?

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby careyhammer » Thu May 10, 2012 5:26 am UTC

Ok, I'm trying to learn what's best to do and not do. Let's just pretend that none of my earlier posts were posted and let me start over.

Unvote
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby mpolo » Thu May 10, 2012 6:12 am UTC

I somehow thought that I had posted in this thread, but I apparently haven't since my translation of the latin phrase. I apologize to all.

Random voting on Day 1 is not all that unusual, though around here, we usually try to give it at least a circumstantial reason. A random vote that is declared to be random is hardly a vote at all — the person receiving the vote can't possibly respond to the "pressure", and is best served by all-but-ignoring it. As such, I would only give a slight scumminess rating to careyhammer's "whim" vote.

UniqueScreenName has already twice tried to get us to talk about how likely a jester is. Which suggests one of three things (1) newbie jester play — uncommon interest in the role, so wants to talk about it, even though linking with this role can hurt the chances of winning with it (2) scum, trying to subtly say "don't lynch me, I'm a jester" or (3) something else, which has specific information in the role about a possible jester (perhaps a vig with win condition of killing the jester?).

Number 2 seems to be the shortest leap in logic, so I'll point that finger of suspicion in the direction of UniqueScreenName.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby fearless » Thu May 10, 2012 6:59 am UTC

12. fearless - suggests to self-investigate in a trying not to actually push for it way - scummy


wtf First of all I did not /suggest/ it - I was not the first person to bring up the self-investigation. I said just because we are not /guaranteed/ to have sane roles, it does not mean that they are necessarily insane. And from the wiki page, it is likely that the cop is sane based on her character in the series. o_O

On carey: Scummy behaviour, but because of newbieness, doesn't necessarily make him scum. However, it could also be a cover-up. And Do we really want to keep a townie around if said townie keeps exhibiting scummy behaviour?

ahamell's analysis seems pretty solid. I also think only 1 scum faction exists in a game of this size, but that would be semi confirmed by how many NKs we get.

I'm at work now so I'll post more later or when I get home.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby KrO2 » Thu May 10, 2012 7:02 am UTC

I counted one attempt to bring up jester, and then an answer to a direct question from BoomFrog. Counting those separately is unfair. But since I still don't see the connection between magic and jesters, I think that suspicion is valid, if weaker. And this, small as it is, is probably my only real negative opinion so far. Keep in mind I said small, though. I don't want to feel like I have to end up lynching her later to stay consistent.
Well, only negative view of anyone except Careyhammer of course, but we've been over this. Even fearless' post didn't seem that scummy to me. I disagreed with the main part of it, sure ("Sympathetic" implies alignment, not effectiveness). But it is completely true that investigating oneself will not hurt anything but may be a waste of an investigation. That doesn't sound like trying to suggest it without pushing it, that sounds like true.

Do mods ever send scum the town role PM? I'm talking about Mostlynormal, of course. I completely bought that at first, and still think it's a good sign, but if it's common, or at least not unheard-of, and MN underestimates how often it happens, then I suppose it could be just a mistake on his part. I'm having a somewhat easier time picturing someone making that post if they're town trying to prove it rather than scum trying to fake it, though. That's true even if scum do receive town PMs, but I thought I should ask if this is a thing.

About the speculation on scum, is this really the time? We've got deadline approaching and are still voting randomly. And I have basically no reads, so post, people! I'd FoS Matt about trying to bring flavor speculation, except that on reflection it didn't actually increase my suspicion. That's partly because it was left over from not being posted earlier (I believe that's probably true, and it wouldn't be out of place earlier) and partly because Snark agreed with him.

Posting now before battery dies. Also ninjad by fearless. Actually I think her defense seems insufficient, but I'll come back to his later because of the aforementioned battery.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby BoomFrog » Thu May 10, 2012 7:12 am UTC

Carey, taking action is fine, have some kind of reason for your action. 4-5ish of the current players are scum. Scum are noticeable by the characteristic that they don't care who is lynched as long as it is not one of their teammates. So try and figure out who's acting like that, then vote for them and explain what led you to the conclusion that they are scum.

To be honest I'm finding Carey pretty likely to be town. Noob scum would probably be too scared to be so reckless.

flarpfreak wrote:Are you referring to my random.org comment? :P In all seriousness though, I simply mean to say that even with a confirmed role claim, sanity leaves more room for doubt than would be nice.
We have to operate under the assumption that people are sane unless we have a specific reason to be doubtful. Otherwise we might as well not have powers. You seem to be trying to set up wiggle room for doubt for if cops get a scummy result.

Since I seem to be the one most familiar with the flavor I decided to do some wiki-browsing to help refresh my memory. I'll be mostly talking about scum, with one exception.

Spoiler:
Alexander Xanatos - The big villain for most of the show. Don't rad the TVtropes article about a Xanatos Gambit if you value your free time. He's basically a Machiavellian mastermind. Probably has some kind of redirect or "back-up plan" lynch/NK survival. If I was running the game I'd have given him complete info on everyone's role but no other powers and just let him try and manipulate everyone, but that's a little extreme even for DBC.

Steel Clan - Robot Gargoyles built by Xanatos. Mafia goon, maybe roleblocker. If anyone is a "race-cop" and gets a result of Robot they are probably scum. I don't remember any robots that were on the Manhattan Clan's side.

Dr. Anton Sevarius - Mad Scientist to the max. Most boring would be a Mafia Doctor, but more likely something weird like he can mutate other players, changing their powers. Probably on scum team with Xanatos. Maybe a limited recruit by turning someone into a mutant or replacing them with a clone.

The Pack - I didn't really remember these guys but they were a bunch of thugs who worked for Xanatos then got mutated. Of particular note since according to flavor we walked into a trap at the Pack Media Studios and The Pack started out as TV Stars but were manipulated by Xanatos to fight the Manhatten Clan. I'm guessing one or two of them are in Xanatos's Mafia or they are a separate scum group. Possibly both of these, as Fox later left the group and married Xanatos.
Fox (first and ex-leader), Coyote (second leader), Wolf, Dingo, Jackal, Hyena

Demona - Evil gargoyle sorceress set on destroying all humans. Probably a SK or 2-man scum team with Thailog. Almost undoubtedly has a NK (day kill I mean, I guess... :? ) and probably some other death resistance as she can only be killed by McBeth (see later)

Thailog - Evil clone of Goliath. (Goliath spelled backwards, how did I ever like this show... :roll: ) Also he's as conniving as Xanatos. He works with Demona, but may have a different goal then her. I'd guess her goal is to kill all humans, and Thailog's goal is to kill Goliath and Xanatos (and maybe Sevarius too). Powers could be anything, maybe Jack-of-all trades would fit him best. (a bunch of one-shot powers).

McBeth - I totally don't remember this guy but the wiki says he and Demona have a magical pact that they are immortal unless one kills the other in which case they both die. This would be a pretty cool dynamic in a mafia game so I'm guessing he and Demona both have NKs (perhaps compulsive NKs) and they can only die if killed by the other. That could be broken though, so more likely he's not in the game at all.

Broadway- I almost forgot my one none-scummy rolespec. Broadway tried to learn detective techniques from Elisa but also from watching TV and movies. He is a prime candidate for a naive cop, especially since Elisa is already a real cop and very likely to be in the game.


Short version: I think the scum are: Xanatos (redirecter or one-shot kill immune)+Dr. Sevarius (One-shot recruiter or Doctor) + Steel Clan (Roleblocker) and Demona (NK immune SK). But there's quite a few other possibilities.

Super-slow ninja'd by fearless I'll address that separately.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby BoomFrog » Thu May 10, 2012 7:24 am UTC

fearless wrote:
12. fearless - suggests to self-investigate in a trying not to actually push for it way - scummy
wtf First of all I did not /suggest/ it - I was not the first person to bring up the self-investigation. I said just because we are not /guaranteed/ to have sane roles, it does not mean that they are necessarily insane. And from the wiki page, it is likely that the cop is sane based on her character in the series. o_O

I think this suggests that the cop is sane. I suppose it doesn't hurt to investigate oneself first and I don't think there are rules against targeting oneself. Still, I'd rather that we don't waste an investigation.
You say "it doesn't hurt" and then you say why it would hurt, aka "waste an investigation." which is a pretty big deal when we only get 2-4 investigations per cop generally.

And you didn't suggest it. The person who suggests a dumb idea is usually asking an innocent question. It's the people who support a dumb idea that I'm worried about.

KrO2 wrote:Do mods ever send scum the town role PM? I'm talking about Mostlynormal, of course.
Yes, yes mods do do that, and DBC is exactly the mod I would expect it from to. He is very thorough in his setup. However, I haven't ever actually seen a game where that was done. I'm not sure what to make of MN's post. I could see it either way, but I'm leaning townie, again I don't think scum would be so bold N1.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby careyhammer » Thu May 10, 2012 7:52 am UTC

With all these crazy roles possible, are there any just vanilla town people? Or just plain scum?

What did that question just give away? I must therefore be non-vanilla myself? Or am I just trying to make people think I am/am not vanilla town or scum?

Anyway, because of my name I would be happy to cast the hammer vote on some scummy player.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby BoomFrog » Thu May 10, 2012 8:28 am UTC

Some games have vanilla roles, however DBC's previous game everyone had at least a one-shot power. I think this game will likely follow suit. Some of the flavor to power connections were pretty "creative" however. There's going to be a twist from our expectations somewhere. Last game Mulan had two guardians, Mushu and The Great Stone Dragon. GSD's goal was to kill Mushu and then take over his role of protecting Mulan. Both got to PM Mulan anonymously.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby mpolo » Thu May 10, 2012 8:57 am UTC

KrO2 wrote:I counted one attempt to bring up jester, and then an answer to a direct question from BoomFrog. Counting those separately is unfair.


I read that incorrectly because there was no quote leading into the second instance. So that weakens an already tenuous link.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby CaptainFinglass » Thu May 10, 2012 12:26 pm UTC

fearless wrote:
On carey: Scummy behaviour, but because of newbieness, doesn't necessarily make him scum. However, it could also be a cover-up. And Do we really want to keep a townie around if said townie exhibits scummy behavior?

This sounds like a subtle attempt to get us to lynch the easiest target (the newbie) and ignore you. So far, it seems like most people think you're the scummiest, so such an attempt would make sense. We've addressed the one day grace period for newbies to give them a chance to figure out a strategy, but several of us have also told Carey that we'll lynch them if their behavior is the same tomorrow. Thus, I think your point is nothing more than trying to distance yourself from a scum role and propagate a lynch. Why would you do that? Because you're scum.

Really, you seem to be the scummiest overall, based on how you've changed your strategy a couple times and things like the above. Seeing as right now, I think you are most likely to be scum, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and
Vote: fearless
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby UniqueScreenname » Thu May 10, 2012 12:44 pm UTC

I only brought up the jester thing again because I was asked.

I don't like fearless' defense. We can't be sure Elisa Maza is in play or, if she is, is the only cop. Boomfrog has now made it look likely there is more than one. It seems like you want to leave enough doubt if a positive scum result comes back on you to call the cop insane.

Vote: fearless

Ninja'd by CaptainFinglass. I never really considered the one day grace period a rule everyone was going to abide by. However, it did make me realize I don't like the phrasing of that quote. He didn't say "why keep a newbie that acts scummy around (since they could actually be scum)?" but "why keep a townie that acts scummy around?". This makes me think he knows he's a townie and is trying to use him as an easy target.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby mpolo » Thu May 10, 2012 1:20 pm UTC

I'm not really sure on this (budding) wagon. Fearless is not very easy for me to read, though. The mod suggested that there might be insane roles, some others suggested that a self-investigation might be a way to establish sanity (mostly opting for a D2 self-investigation). Fearless picked up that idea and said that from what she had read in the wiki, there is an almost-certainly sane cop in the flavor (she did make a jump to assuming that this character exists, but then BoomFrog also said that this was probable).

On the one hand, self-investigation doesn't even give a reliable sanity baseline. You need at least two investigations to be truly sure of your sanity. (Because of naive and paranoid possibilities.) It's probably not worth wasting investigations for this.

How many cops are we talking about anyway? This isn't a dethy, and I have the impression that (as BF also suggested) the sanity of the roles will be somewhat indicated by the nature of the role.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby careyhammer » Thu May 10, 2012 1:50 pm UTC

People think I'm scum because I voted on a bandwagon and then changed it up with an OhMyGodYouSuck.
People think that my noob status should let me slide for the first night. Thank you.
Fearless comes to my defence, thank you :)

However, only a scum could know for sure that I am not one of them.
I happen to know for a fact that I am not scum.
Therefore I believe that fearless is scum and I am not.

The only logical conclusion is that fearless is scum and must therefore die.

Vote: fearless
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby careyhammer » Thu May 10, 2012 1:56 pm UTC

Snark wrote:Which is what I'd expect a scummate of Carey's to say while thinking "I'll deal with her over night chat tonight."


Everyone knows I'm male, right? Do I have to go post in that gender pronoun thread?
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby Snark » Thu May 10, 2012 2:15 pm UTC

careyhammer wrote:
Snark wrote:Which is what I'd expect a scummate of Carey's to say while thinking "I'll deal with her over night chat tonight."


Everyone knows I'm male, right? Do I have to go post in that gender pronoun thread?

I do know that, but for some reason I continually forget. I'm sorry.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby Snark » Thu May 10, 2012 2:41 pm UTC

fearless wrote:On carey: Scummy behaviour, but because of newbieness, doesn't necessarily make him scum. However, it could also be a cover-up. And Do we really want to keep a townie around if said townie keeps exhibiting scummy behaviour?


Yeah, that about drives the nail in the coffin. Underlined for emphasis.

I'm going to hold off on jumping on this quickly forming wagon though, because I'm about to attack one of the wagoners myself.

CaptainFinglass wrote:Really, you seem to be the scummiest overall, based on how you've changed your strategy a couple times and things like the above. Seeing as right now, I think you are most likely to be scum, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and
Vote: fearless

Changed strategy a couple times? She's posted twice. The first time was saying that self-investigations would be ok, but she wouldn't prefer them. In her second post, she restated herself almost exactly.

Vote: CaptainFinglass

for currently having the worst reason for bandwagoning. (I'm ignoring careyhammer, because that "logic" is just too painful to deal with).
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby mpolo » Thu May 10, 2012 3:15 pm UTC

@Snark: Good catch on fearless. I don't want to plunge this into an unstoppable bandwagon (since we still have a day), but it looks quite bad for fearless. CaptainFinglass's reasoning is suspect as well, but I am now more convinced by the fearless argument than the Finglass.

If nothing changes, I will vote for fearless in the morning.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu May 10, 2012 4:07 pm UTC

Votals:

BoomFrog: 1 (JesseScottOwen)
CaptainFinglass: 1 (Snark)
fearless: 4 (BoomFrog, CaptainFinglass, careyhammer, UniqueScreenname)
flarpfreak: 1 (ahammel)

14 players alive, 8 votes to lynch. Deadline in approximately 31 hours.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby fearless » Thu May 10, 2012 4:10 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
fearless wrote:
12. fearless - suggests to self-investigate in a trying not to actually push for it way - scummy
wtf First of all I did not /suggest/ it - I was not the first person to bring up the self-investigation. I said just because we are not /guaranteed/ to have sane roles, it does not mean that they are necessarily insane. And from the wiki page, it is likely that the cop is sane based on her character in the series. o_O

I think this suggests that the cop is sane. I suppose it doesn't hurt to investigate oneself first and I don't think there are rules against targeting oneself. Still, I'd rather that we don't waste an investigation.
You say "it doesn't hurt" and then you say why it would hurt, aka "waste an investigation." which is a pretty big deal when we only get 2-4 investigations per cop generally.

And you didn't suggest it. The person who suggests a dumb idea is usually asking an innocent question. It's the people who support a dumb idea that I'm worried about.
.

The first sentence: because it's not up to me to decide whether to self-investigate or not. That decision is up to the cop. and if he/she is paranoid about the role, then the self-investigation would help clear a lot of wine later on.
The second sentence: I'm saying it is what *I* would do under the circumstances because *I* don't believe the cop role is insane. But that is not to say the cop holds the same view as me.
This sounds like a subtle attempt to get us to lynch the easiest target (the newbie) and ignore you. So far, it seems like most people think you're the scummiest, so such an attempt would make sense. We've addressed the one day grace period for newbies to give them a chance to figure out a strategy, but several of us have also told Carey that we'll lynch them if their behavior is the same tomorrow. Thus, I think your point is nothing more than trying to distance yourself from a scum role and propagate a lynch. Why would you do that? Because you're scum.

Really, you seem to be the scummiest overall, based on how you've changed your strategy a couple times and things like the above. Seeing as right now, I think you are most likely to be scum, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and

Look, I got prodded by the mod for inactivity so I was just trying to throw some ideas out.
I didn't vote for carey nor did I FoS him. I merely pointed out that having a town who mostly displays scum-like behaviour isn't benefical to town - and let's not forget how he faded in the 2 of 4 game...
I didn't "come to his defense". I said "IF he were town...".
Also, projection much? How was I distancing myself from a scum role? Please explain.
Propagate a lynch? I neither voted nor FoS'd. If anything, YOU are the person propagating a lynch bandwagon here, not me.
I don't even have a strategy. I've only posted like, 3 times, and I've been consistent in all of my posts.
I only brought up the jester thing again because I was asked.

I don't like fearless' defense. We can't be sure Elisa Maza is in play or, if she is, is the only cop. Boomfrog has now made it look likely there is more than one. It seems like you want to leave enough doubt if a positive scum result comes back on you to call the cop insane.

Vote: fearless

Ninja'd by CaptainFinglass. I never really considered the one day grace period a rule everyone was going to abide by. However, it did make me realize I don't like the phrasing of that quote. He didn't say "why keep a newbie that acts scummy around (since they could actually be scum)?" but "why keep a townie that acts scummy around?". This makes me think he knows he's a townie and is trying to use him as an easy target.

Why would Eliza NOT be in play? She was a main character... I don't think we would have many cops in a game this size... I thought this crazy idea was ruled out already.
Secondly it's a projection. In the sentence prior to that, I said the newbieness doesn't necessarily make him scum. So obviously the logical follow-through of that would be to contemplate "what if he's town?"... Like, seriously, I don't understand how some of you read meaning into things.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby ahammel » Thu May 10, 2012 4:52 pm UTC

The fearless bandwagon is weak. The main charge seems to be that she communicated her feelings about self-investigations slightly imprecisely. Her willingness to lynch scummy-looking townies is troubling, certainly, but is just as likely to be poor strategy as anti-town alignment. If she's lynched and turns up town, we should have a hard look at UniqueScreenname, Finglass and Carey. Boomfrog's initial vote seems normal for early D1 N1.

flarpfreak wrote:
ahammel wrote:Flarpfreak is putting the biggest ping on my scumdar for extremely unlikely role-sanity speculation. It reads like scum trying to spread wine to me.

Are you referring to my random.org comment? :P In all seriousness though, I simply mean to say that even with a confirmed role claim, sanity leaves more room for doubt than would be nice.

I'm satisfied with that. Seriously though, guys, sanity is unlikely to be a big deal.

Unvote

I'll wait for a bit more content to cast a final vote.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby KrO2 » Thu May 10, 2012 5:19 pm UTC

First of all, apologies to fearless for saying that I didn't think her response was good enough and not giving any details. I think it was justifiedish, but since people started piling on her immediately after I said that I'm worried I might be indirectly responsible for part of it. Which would be bad, because my initial response was based on just reading it quickly and not explaining anything.

Now I can explain: Clearly I think a good defense to that charge was possible. I even put part of one in that post, which, now that I think about it, was probably a bad idea and I just got lucky that fearless posted before I did. But the defense she gave was not really directly answering the accusation of trying to get self-investigation adopted without actually looking like it. And referring to the wiki is convincing as an argument that the cop is sane, but not really a strong defense for her previous post.

I don't really want to lynch fearless, but I can't point to anyone who looks worse and she's probably the only real candidate anyway. I don't like Day 1.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby KrO2 » Thu May 10, 2012 5:34 pm UTC

Also: "I also think only 1 scum faction exists in a game of this size, but that would be semi confirmed by how many NKs we get."
Does this include a serial killer? I had thought one faction+SK was most likely, based on what other people said and the fact that Xanatos was literally the only bit of flavor I knew going in. And Demona is guaranteed, of course. For one faction to be distinguishable from two by number of NK's, there would have to be only one kill, which sounds like you're implying there's no SK. My first reaction to this was to think that maybe fearless is the SK, but this is tenuous in the extreme.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby ahammel » Thu May 10, 2012 5:41 pm UTC

@KrO2: hmm, that's a failure to think things through on fearless's part, for sure.

What do you expect to learn from the number of nightkills, fearless?
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby fearless » Thu May 10, 2012 6:08 pm UTC

well if we have 2 NKs then obviously we have a mafia team and a SK.
If 1 NK then either we have a successful save/roleblock or we only have 1 scum faction or they targeted the same person
If no NK then we only have 1 scum faction.
And if we get a single NK the second day then the probability of there being one scum team is pretty much near 100%.
Pretty standard.
Although someone subsequently mentioned something about a one-shot-power which would be something to keep in mind. Still, after 2 days, we should be able to gauge how many scum factions there are. I don't see the point of obsessing over it on night 1.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby ahammel » Thu May 10, 2012 6:11 pm UTC

Sounds reasonable to me.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 1: Reflections of the Self

Postby UniqueScreenname » Thu May 10, 2012 7:58 pm UTC

fearless wrote:Why would Eliza NOT be in play? She was a main character... I don't think we would have many cops in a game this size... I thought this crazy idea was ruled out already.
Secondly it's a projection. In the sentence prior to that, I said the newbieness doesn't necessarily make him scum. So obviously the logical follow-through of that would be to contemplate "what if he's town?"... Like, seriously, I don't understand how some of you read meaning into things.

My thought was that in wanting everyone to assume that cops were sane, then you wanted there to remain some doubt in the validity of cop results if you were exposed. I honestly don't think we can be sure of anything, or else it wouldn't have been put into the rules. I can see how that could just be an opinion as opposed to scummy strategy, but I'm still quite concerned about the willingness to lynch a townie. And sure, it's speculation, but that's kinda what you're supposed to do in this game. It's not like there's a whole bunch of absolute truth to go on.
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