Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 5: What Have We Done?!

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:37 am UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:The leader of the Redemption Squad is named Hunter, not Huntress. I'm fine where my vote is.

Oh, whatever. It's been a pretty long time since I looked at my actual role PM. You really think I am the recruiter for the Redemption Squad but I am not Hunter?

mpolo wrote:However, only scum would be likely to *know* that scum has to give up their power to carry out the kill. While he listed several games where that was the case, in DaBigCheez's last game (Mulanfia), it was not the case. As scum there, I could carry out my power on the same turn that I killed.
Actually, your probably right, I guess I misremembered Mulanfia since my power was so weak there. Considering it's the same mod, it very possibly works the same way this game and scum can use their power and target the kill at the same time.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 5: What Have We Done?!

Postby UniqueScreenname » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:18 am UTC

Also, Snark, if your redirecting was naive, it wouldn't explain why I was roleblocked instead of BF.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 5: What Have We Done?!

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:11 pm UTC

Yeah Snark's theory doesn't make any sense, and yet, USN doesn't call him scummy for it. Snark has been so obviously scummy and USN has been the only one to defend him. I'm getting the feeling that Snark and USN are scum buddies. If someone else votes for me Snark will hammer, but if USN get's lynched snark looks townie for attacking her so early. I've made up my mind.

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I'd be happy to lynch Snark first also. The order doesn't matter.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 5: What Have We Done?!

Postby CaptainFinglass » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:19 pm UTC

Snark, do you have any idea where you redirected me? Because there's only place it would have made a difference, seeing as I'm a bodyguard. And you never answered my question. When I was gone, I suddenly appeared as scum on your unexplained list. Why?

I'm not happy with Snark and USN attacking each other after they've defended each other previously, but I'm also not happy with BF's defense that he just 'misremembered' a previous game, but hey it's the same mod so it's probably still the same! That gives me the problem of I think you're all fairly scummy and I can't pick one to vote for just yet.

Actually, at this point, mpolo is the only one I don't suspect to be scum other than myself.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 5: What Have We Done?!

Postby Snark » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:49 pm UTC

CF, I wanted my best guesses for scum and cult known if I had died during the night. As it is now, there's apparently no cult, and we just have to find the remaining mafia.

If there's only 1 mafia left (possible since the SK was immortal), I think it's US.

If there are two left, then at least one of mpolo and US is scum. Reasoning: CF scum and BF scum is impossible as CF would've hammered US just now. Out of mpolo and US, I find US scummier. If she's lynched and I'm alive tomorrow, I'll likely be voting for whichever of CF/mpolo who doesn't hammer US.

Also if CF is scum, then I'm confirmed town by the same logic.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 5: What Have We Done?!

Postby mpolo » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:57 pm UTC

Vote: UniqueScreenName

On the theory that it would be really bastardly to have a mason recruiter as scum.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Night 5: What Have We Done?!

Postby DaBigCheez » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:00 pm UTC

That's hammer.

Final votals:
BoomFrog: 1 (UniqueScreenname)
UniqueScreenname: 3 (BoomFrog, mpolo, Snark)

UniqueScreenname has been lynched. With her death, the outcome of the game is decided.


"Come on, you guys!" cried UniqeScreenname. "I don't care how much evidence there is in his favor, I just know he's got to be dirty!" She leapt for BoomFrog, but Snark joined in the struggle and began to force her back...

Until mpolo came hurtling in from the side like a thunderbolt, knocking her over the edge of the building to her doom.


UniqueScreenname was Lexington (Rolecop). She was aligned with the Manhattan Clan (Town) and was a Gargoyle.

CaptainFinglass looked down in horror at the broken body of her last remaining packmate, and turned to BoomFrog, comprehension slowly dawning in her eyes as mpolo looked back and forth whimpering in confusion. BoomFrog smiled and bowed politely, the illusion slowly fading from all of them. "Thank you for your cooperation, Goliath...and Bronx." He reaches down to scritch behind the ears of the gargoyle dog, but mpolo shies away growling angrily. BoomFrog shrugs, stands back up and takes his darling Snark in his arms, smiling broadly. "I appreciate your trust. After all...we couldn't have done it without you." With that, he activates his jetpack and takes off back into the night, carrying Snark with him.

And with that, Goliath is left alone once more, all his friends dead and only his faithful hound to keep him company. But he swears, no matter how long it takes, Xanatos will pay for this treachery.


BoomFrog was Xanatos (Mason Recruiter). He was aligned with Xanatos Enterprises (Scum) and was a Human.
Snark was Fox (Redirecter/Bus Driver). She was aligned with Xanatos Enterprises (Scum) and was a Human.
CaptainFinglass was Goliath (Bodyguard). He was aligned with the Manhattan Clan (Town) and was a Gargoyle.
mpolo was Bronx (Tracker). He was aligned with the Manhattan Clan (Town) and was a Gargoyle.



Game Over!

ahammel earns a win for successfully lynching Demona.
BoomFrog, Snark and fearless win as scum.

Mod notes, action histories, etc. are available at https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1ASct ... UhrZ2lleVU if you would like a look. I'll also be putting Day actions in spoilers for each Nightfall post, so you can see what actually happened on a read-through.




Good game, all - to answer some probable questions:
1) I don't really feel that having Xanatos as a mason recruiter is bastardly - unexpected, yes, but not bastardly. It fits perfectly with the role (he's all about gaining trust and playing people off against each other), and it's an established fact that you can have scum in mason groups anyway, either pre-established or recruited - so why not the recruiter? I was worried that it might be too powerful, though, due to people assuming it meant confirmed town, which led to...

2) Matt Bluestone/matt96's role. That was, I think, the closest thing to true bastardry in this game - it was all *true*, but deliberately left somewhat ambiguous/misleading. (This role was a late addition - if I'd had it in initially, I probably would have said "slight to moderate" bastardry rather than "none to slight". I maintain that BoomFrog's role fits in "none to slight".) Note that, while I tended to use standard monikers for other roles, I never actually said "deculter" anywhere in his role - what he actually did was, if he hit a member of BoomFrog's mason group, they'd be removed from the mason group and get a PM informing them they'd been presented with evidence proving it was a front for the Illuminati. (The link being that Xanatos is an Illuminatus, as some people mentioned in-thread.) I didn't want it to make BoomFrog get auto-lynched on the death reveal, though, hence the roleflip (and matt's role PM) *hinting* that something wasn't right (especially after no Illuminati got lynched) without actually saying it outright. I debated sending BoomFrog a PM letting him know that he was the Illuminati, but decided against it.

3) There was absolutely no anti-massclaim mechanism in the game, the closest thing being Matt's role potentially making it harder for BF if people suspected the mason group of being a cult. I was kicking myself over this N2/3, worrying that it'd lead to a boring game that became more of a dethy later on, or that scum was underpowered as a result - I'd initially planned to give them a bonus, unblockable kill if they could accurately state the target's rolename and power, but decided against it because that was more kills than I wanted in the game. Scum generally did well at guessing safe falseclaims, and BoomFrog did get the ability to name his group for himself.

4) The only insane role was Talon - honestly I'd initially put the "no role is guaranteed to be sane" in as a boilerplate from Werewolves because I liked the generality, and only later decided to make Talon paranoid after feeling like town had too many investigative roles. Matt Bluestone was arguable as well, due to the role not doing what the player would probably think it did.

I'm frankly surprised BF didn't catch more flak from the confluence of "sane watcher sees him visit CF D1, (unconfirmed sane) tracker sees him visit CF D1, CF is doctored by a sane doctor who blocks a single kill D1, CF's kill immunity is also burned D1 (though she didn't explicitly state that)" - did people just forget about wam's results later on, and just start thinking about mpolo's? I also thought Snark was an auto-lynch as soon as the Night started, but apparently was wrong. (Incidentally, the "if your target visited more than one player" on Tracker wasn't intended specifically as a hint about scum carrying out multiple actions - Snark would visit two people per night even if he wasn't carrying out the kill.)

I'm a little sad that the game ended how it did (i.e. via somewhat meta bastardry-level analysis), but I hope you all still had fun!
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby UniqueScreenname » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:16 pm UTC

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH THE ANGERRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby Snark » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:44 pm UTC

I am all smiles. That is all.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:53 pm UTC

Well done Snark, I think that your somehow convincing USN that your town while everyone else thought you were scum helped make her look more scummy.

About the Mason=confirmed town thing, I agree that fell within "slightly" bastardy. At some point everyone questioned it though so it's not like it was unfair, it just tipped the balance and helped defend me early game through the awful luck of getting double tracked D1. Speaking of, even I forgot about wam's result and was only focused on mpolo's result. Odd how distracting a SK lynch and a witchhunt for a non-existant cult can be. :D

Even if Matt's power did nothing, that's kind of like a naive cult deprogramer. I think if he had hit one of my masons things would have gotten crazy fast but I still don't think I'd have been lynched. Demasoner is a super bizarre role and has no history to really point to scummy or townyness. Also, I did warn everyone N1 that there would be *something* bizarre about the setup.

On a side note, my name is David Xanatos, Alexander is my son, but I put Alexander Xanatos in my initial rolespec to see if anyone else read the wiki. Conclusion: No one. Which is why I felt comfortable lying about Angela having magic powers. :D
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby KrO2 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:01 am UTC

I caught the Alexander thing when checking the wiki, but didn't think anything of it until I was dead and read spoilers.

Well played mafia, especially BoomFrog.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby Snark » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:25 am UTC

Agreed. BF is definite MVP. :)
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby DaBigCheez » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:31 am UTC

I'll agree BF played very well - the mason leadership was a role that's very dependent on player skill to pull off usefully, and he handled it quite well (I particularly liked the bit with 'eh, Snark doesn't seem that bad' in thread, and 'I think he's scum but I'm hoping he'll kill off a cultist/we need to be going for cult' in mason chat - lying out both sides of his mouth at the same time!)
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby DaBigCheez » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:35 am UTC

Something that's been bugging me, though - where did all the "BF would have to be a godfather" stuff come from? USN's rolecop only gives the target's powers, not a rolename or alignment, and the scumkill is factional rather than Xanatos', so it wouldn't show up even if it did return an alignment. The only straight-up alignment cop in the game was paranoid - Hudson's racecop was meant to be a sane but untrustworthy alignment cop (all scum were human but not all humans were scum, 23rd Precinct were millers and Macbeth was kind of a borderline case). Did I accidentally imply something I didn't mean to with a role description?

Also, it seems oddly fitting that Goliath is the last Gargoyle left standing, after tanking every kill in the game like a baws D1.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby matt96 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:18 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Even if Matt's power did nothing, that's kind of like a naive cult deprogramer. I think if he had hit one of my masons things would have gotten crazy fast but I still don't think I'd have been lynched. Demasoner is a super bizarre role and has no history to really point to scummy or townyness. Also, I did warn everyone N1 that there would be *something* bizarre about the setup.

It was all because I messed up who I targeted D2, I meant to target your claimed recruit, but accidentally forgot to check, and targeted the wrong player :(

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby mpolo » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:16 am UTC

I had convinced and unconvinced myself so many times that BoomFrog was scum. I should have gone with my gut feeling there. I even didn't really trust the "Angela" claim from Snark. In other words, I really have no excuse for letting BoomFrog play me like a fool.

Good game, scum. Thanks, DaBigCheez.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby BoomFrog » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:34 am UTC

matt96 wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Even if Matt's power did nothing, that's kind of like a naive cult deprogramer. I think if he had hit one of my masons things would have gotten crazy fast but I still don't think I'd have been lynched. Demasoner is a super bizarre role and has no history to really point to scummy or townyness. Also, I did warn everyone N1 that there would be *something* bizarre about the setup.

It was all because I messed up who I targeted D2, I meant to target your claimed recruit, but accidentally forgot to check, and targeted the wrong player :(

Huh, with you dead and MN suddenly not in the masongroup that would have been amazingly confusing. Absolutely no one alive would know what was going on. I sincerely believed that I wasn't the illuminati up until the last night.

I might have actually taken Careyhammer up on his offer if MN hadn't been there to witness the scummy deal.

Snark, did you ever suspect I had a different win condition then you?
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby Snark » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:28 am UTC

Nope. I trusted you through and through.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby UniqueScreenname » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:34 pm UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:Something that's been bugging me, though - where did all the "BF would have to be a godfather" stuff come from? USN's rolecop only gives the target's powers, not a rolename or alignment, and the scumkill is factional rather than Xanatos', so it wouldn't show up even if it did return an alignment. The only straight-up alignment cop in the game was paranoid - Hudson's racecop was meant to be a sane but untrustworthy alignment cop (all scum were human but not all humans were scum, 23rd Precinct were millers and Macbeth was kind of a borderline case). Did I accidentally imply something I didn't mean to with a role description?

Also, it seems oddly fitting that Goliath is the last Gargoyle left standing, after tanking every kill in the game like a baws D1.

You said he was a mason recruiter. Doesn't mason mean town? I know scum can enter mason groups; I wouldn't normally think they would lead one.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby CaptainFinglass » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:43 pm UTC

Thanks for the game DBC, it was was great :) If there's a second I definitely will play.

Well played scum!
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby DaBigCheez » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:22 pm UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:You said he was a mason recruiter. Doesn't mason mean town? I know scum can enter mason groups; I wouldn't normally think they would lead one.

I realize that scum leading a mason group isn't exactly a common thing (it was intended to be something of a surprise), but I thought the fundamental definition of "mason" was just "daychat", or more generally, "private, two-way communication that isn't fundamentally linked to alignment, i.e. scumchat/cult chat". I know scum can start as members of a mason group (I've seen a couple games in which you have something like a cop mason group with one traitor, who's a member of the mafia) as well as being recruited to it, but I do acknowledge an actual mafia *recruiter* isn't something I've seen before.

I can see how you would have gotten that implication, though - but I'm not sure if I could have really altered the name any without completely tipping people off. Would you have been suspicious if it had said "daychat recruiter" (okay, Nightchat recruiter) rather than "mason recruiter", do you think?
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby greenlover » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:58 am UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:I realize that scum leading a mason group isn't exactly a common thing (it was intended to be something of a surprise), but I thought the fundamental definition of "mason" was just "daychat", or more generally, "private, two-way communication that isn't fundamentally linked to alignment, i.e. scumchat/cult chat". I know scum can start as members of a mason group (I've seen a couple games in which you have something like a cop mason group with one traitor, who's a member of the mafia) as well as being recruited to it, but I do acknowledge an actual mafia *recruiter* isn't something I've seen before.

Guy who didn't play the game opting in here - given that having the mafia playing as a mason recruiter is completely unexpected (and, it could be argued, won the mafia the game), I suspect it would qualify as an (albeit minor) example of class 3 bastardy by this standard. So, while I think such a role is fine, it definitely qualifies the game to a higher level of bastardy than what you had.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby UniqueScreenname » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:07 am UTC

greenlover wrote:won the mafia the game

I also agree with this. mpolo said he voted for me because the other option was too bastardy.

@BF - I was never not suspicious of him. It made the most sense to me, but there was too much evidence to back him up. If his title was daychat recruiter, I would have gunned for him harder though.
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:07 am UTC

greenlover wrote:I suspect it would qualify as an (albeit minor) example of class 3 bastardy by this standard. So, while I think such a role is fine, it definitely qualifies the game to a higher level of bastardy than what you had.
"Class 3" is not worse then "Class 1" Silknor was just listing out the different types of bastardy. And as you said it was a "minor" case. I think the bastardy worked in scum's favor, and the lack of anti-mass claim worked in towns favor. And it balanced out to a reasonably fair game, although I think the SK was fairly screwed by the mass claim but had little compensation.

But consider this: We lynched Flarpfreak on the "theory" that he was the cult leader who started as masons with the cult deprogramer. That seems about equally bastardy as the real situation. I guess I'm a bit defensive because saying "The game was won by the bastardry screwing town" is equivalent to saying, "Anyone could have won with BoomFrog's role" which I don't think is true. I worked for this win dammit.

UniqueScreenname wrote:@BF - I was never not suspicious of him. It made the most sense to me, but there was too much evidence to back him up. If his title was daychat recruiter, I would have gunned for him harder though.
I knew you were on to me and we would have NKed you on the last day except we had to kill MN because he was going to racecop Snark and blow his cover.

Of course during the game I promoted the theory that of course a mason recruiter must be town, and we killed off those who didn't agree such as JSO. However, I really do think "unusual roles" is the lowest level of bastardry and I welcome it in any game outside the vanilla queue. Trust your scumdar and nothing else and then we will have a fun game of mafia.

You did get fooled by Snark though :D
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby New User » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:33 am UTC

Guy who wasn't in the game here, joining the discussion. I also didn't follow this entire game, so I'm not entirely sure what happened.
I go by MafiaWiki for info on this game. I do so partly because it's in the newbie thread, and partly because it just looks like a good source for info on this game. On the MafiaWiki site, Masons are defined as town roles. Players who have a chatting ability but who do not know the alignment of each other are called Neighbors. I don't know if we go by those definitions here on xkcd. I also haven't followed this game closely enough to know if the chatters were specifically called Masons. If they were, as a player I would take that as a confirmation that a Mason is a townie, since that's the definition on MafiaWiki. If the word Mason wasn't used, and it was simply players who could chat but who don't know the alignment of each other, I would be suspicious of another player's alignment. That happened to me in the Shadowrun game: I was given a role with daychat and immediately my first question was "what is the alignment of the other daychat player?"
In short, if they were specifically called Masons, it seems bastardly to make them anti-town. If they weren't, then it would be considered Neighbor chat. I can see that having a Neighbor recruiter that is mafia would be unusual, but not unheard of. If I was playing this game and I was recruited into a chatting group, and that group wasn't called Masons by the moderator, I would not assume everyone in the group has the same alignment as myself.

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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby Aaeriele » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:51 am UTC

I think there there's a fair amount of hindsight bias going on here (see also, BoomFrog and snark not thinking it was bastardry, some of the townies thinking it was).

Given the setting, I don't think someone looking at the setup from the start would think it was bastardry - I think they would think it was appropriate and an interesting twist for a game that still stays well within the spirit of mafia.

Doing something different isn't bastardry, especially in a flavor-based game. The day we start requiring people to use specific definitions of roles from a random website is the day we're all taking things way too seriously. :/
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mpolo
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby mpolo » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:02 am UTC

I think that the role was fair, and really blame myself for convincing myself otherwise. If matt had been able to act effectively before being killed, it would have turned out quite differently. There, maybe it's too much to have town's only chance of really figuring out what's going on hang from one role, but that's a judgment call -- in vanilla, town is in horrible shape if the cop is killed early…
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DaBigCheez
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby DaBigCheez » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:17 am UTC

I was trying not to hang town's chances too much on matt - he'd blow the whole thing wide open if he got a success off, but he had to survive to lategame to have a reasonable chance of doing that (it was also an anti-claim mechanism for BF's mason group, but we saw how that turned off), and the deathflip was intended to at least give town *some* hint something was up even if he died.

That said, based on the feedback I'm seeing here, I think future highly unorthodox roles/ones that run counter to implicit assumptions will be placed more in the "slight to moderate" bastardry camp, and/or I'll try to be more careful about what I imply with my wording - I tend to be a bit of a stickler for wording precision, and it seems like "mason" has stronger connotations than I originally thought. (Hmm, I wonder if there were any past games where *nobody* in a mason group was truly town (i.e. a 2-person mason group where one was a mafia traitor and the other was a third-party condition)? Aside from something like HOLY SHIT WTF MAFIA, of course.) That said, I don't want to make a strong pattern of having slightly ambiguous wording hinting at a big change, or of always subverting player assumptions in my games - M. Night Shyamalan only gets so far with his sudden twist endings, and games degenerating into quibbling about wording or brain-in-a-jar level "but how can you be SURE" wouldn't be particularly fun, I think :P

Anyway - I hope you all still had fun, and I learned some things to apply to future games. Hopefully I can avoid future screwups like the one with flarpfreak's masonclaim - I messed up matt's role reveal by not listing his mason group (which I'd always intended to do), and didn't realize until after I'd gone back and edited it in that doing so would explicitly mod-confirm flarpfreak's claim (due to specificity of name), with the exceptions of her having somehow spied on the group or somesuch. I don't think I would have done anything *differently* if I had realized, since "correcting the error as soon as I realize it's been made" is a generally good strategy and flarpfreak's claim wouldn't be a significantly momentous intervening event to override that, but I was frustrated with myself for letting it happen in the first place.

Will get back to work on thinking up more games, assuming people would be willing to play again sometime!
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wam
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby wam » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:25 am UTC

I thought it was fine. Also town had enough investigative roles and enough data to know that boomfrog was v suspcisous but no one seemed to pick up on it and attack him. I don't mind being sacrificed to prove my result but it would have been nice if someone had paid attention!
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UniqueScreenname
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Re: Gargoyles Mafia - Game Over: Xanatos Gambit (Scum Win)

Postby UniqueScreenname » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:46 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:You did get fooled by Snark though :D

I blame this on my sucky balance knowledge and thinking there was only one mafia left.
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