1190: "Time"

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Dracomax
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Dracomax » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:29 pm UTC

eh, per Blitzgirl's decree:
MEgan and cueball, through rushing waters and sudden storms, fight off the Cat molpy and save their people, leading them back to the castle acedemis. There, they rapidly learn the language, and advance to become the new king and queen, rebuilding a society to the extent of their tools. they die in bed, surrounded by decendants and disciples, the world on it's way to recovering the heights of civilization, without it's foibles. In time, the tale of Cuegan is told, and retold, with the two of them becoming mythical figures. Thousands of years later, we see a futuristic civilization telling stories of their journey, and living by their lessons.

*voluntary Papal Proclamation* Retell the journey of Cuegan as future generations might, with an eye towards myth and legend.
Last edited by Dracomax on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby *Kat* » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:30 pm UTC

All hail the new pope!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jovialbard » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:31 pm UTC

I do think we should welcome newcomers from now on with a link to the wiki... might be helpful. And it also might make sense to include a "list of sensitive subjects" on the front page of the time wiki, you know like "the javascirpt" and "redundant spoilers" and so forth :) thoughts on that?
Last edited by jovialbard on Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby k.bookbinder » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:39 pm UTC

Dracomax wrote:eh, per Blitzgirl's decree:
MEgan and cueball, through rushing waters and sudden storms, fight off the Cat molpy and save their people, leading them back to the castle acedemis. There, they rapidly learn the language, and advance to become the new king and queen, rebuilding a society to the extent of their tools. they die in bed, surrounded by decendants and disciples, the world on it's way to recovering the heights of civilization, without it's foibles. In time, the tale of Cuegan is told, and retold, with the two of them becoming mythical figures. Thousands of years later, we see a futuristic civilization telling stories of their journey, and living by their lessons.

*voluntary Papal Proclamation* Retell the journey of Cuegan as future generations might, with an eye towards myth and legend.


... :shock: That is going to be one very long OTC.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Lokiparts » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:45 pm UTC

k.bookbinder wrote:... :shock: That is going to be one very long OTC.


Well I for one will continue to follow it for as long as it exists. Or until the end of time... which I guess is the same thing.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Rule110 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:47 pm UTC

capnbuckle wrote:This may already be obvious to everyone else...but if my math is correct, at the end of this NP, the OTC with slightly over 3000 panels will have generated 48,000 posts (and climbing!) in the OTT.

Wow.


That post was, in fact, the 48000th. (At present; subject to change due to mods removing posts and/or new delayed firstposts appearing upthread.)

Dracomax wrote:...and living by their lessons.

"Don't hurt the baby chirps."
"Knowledge is precious. Steal it whenever you get the chance!"
"Don't worry. Feed squirpies."
"To learn about something, get farther away from it."
"Linear extrapolation of trends can be unreliable."
"Don't build castles on the bottom of a flooding basin."

Prediction of next dialog:

Megan: Are you drowning?
Cueball: No. But this is what the first part of drowning looks like.
If you're lost you can look--and you will find me
Time after Time...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NoMouse » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:52 pm UTC

*BLINDPOST FROM NP 1195*
Latent22 wrote: OTVO Voting Time!
Vote for your favorite Cuegen Combination.
Results will be posted Here
<snip>

I vote for C6M3.

*opens spoiler with results*
Spoiler:
Wow, this time we have pretty clear winner so far...


And I want to thank you for the way you did this, the video was really helpful for decision.
Also, you've typo'd Cuegan. :wink:
Time. The final frontier. These are the voyages of Cueball and Megan. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Zorin_75 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:59 pm UTC

Latent22 wrote: OTVO Voting Time!
Vote for your favorite Cuegen Combination.
Results will be posted Here


To vote just quote the first few lines and state the combination you like best

C6M3.
Go Minim go!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Valarya » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:00 pm UTC

TastONG again. Lol... Cueball
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SPACKlick » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

Xkcd.com/1190 has crashed for me... and thus ends time.

That said, glad to see we were right about Cuegan's fall.
Last edited by SPACKlick on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:02 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Ebonite » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

Latent22 wrote: OTVO Voting Time!
Vote for your favorite Cuegen Combination.
Results will be posted Here



Tough choice, but I'll go with C9M3.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Valarya » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:02 pm UTC

The Other Sea is Fresh?! (I believe we have a new footnote, mscha!)

But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SPACKlick » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:03 pm UTC

Valarya wrote:
Spoiler:
The other sea is Fresh?! (I believe we have a new footnote, mscha!)


But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:


Well, if you have a sea like the Mediterranean and you allow it to evaporate as far as this one has, then the relative salinity of the Med to the Atlantic would be greater than the relative salinity of the Atlantic to the Thames is now.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mindonner » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:05 pm UTC

I've tasted (and floated in) the Dead Sea, and the difference between that and a regular sea is very noticeable. If the Mini-Med is that much saltier, then no wonder regular seawater tastes fresh in comparison.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Lokiparts » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

Valarya wrote:The Other Sea is Fresh?! (I believe we have a new footnote, mscha!)

But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:


I think that's exactly what it is. I could definitely see someone describing normal Ocean water as "fresh" if the water they are used to encountering is as salty or even more so than the dead sea.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jovialbard » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:07 pm UTC

Valarya wrote:But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:


That's the conclusion I would come to.

eta: Is quadruple ninja'd for a +1 post some kind of record? :)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Lokiparts » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:12 pm UTC

Haha, yeah it seems like most of us are on the same page on that one.

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Blind-Post NP1097

Postby azule » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:15 pm UTC

@Latent22 & BlitzGirl....voices. Intriguing. Only because you said it, nasal is right, but nothing wrong with it; BG, OMBG, the great and powerful, hehe. I guess one of these is American and the other taint. :P

NetWeasel wrote:It looks like three speeches:
The (BigSomething)
The Sea (BigWater)
Water
Hmm, could it be that they're using "water" the same way Cueball was (unofficially, for ease of communication), where "water" basically means "home of cueball", hence no "the" (and yes, I know "the" is unlikely)?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Someguy945 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:22 pm UTC

Please, do not ford the river! Pay for the ferry! Caulk the wagon and float across if you must. But do not ford the river!

Spoiler:
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:22 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:Discussion about energy harvesting from a dam in the Straghts. Spoilerd for seaishness
Spoiler:
charlie_grumbles wrote:Sorry about the size of this. There are three parts. I've saved the best for last.

Neil_Boekend wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:How come the salty water is flowing back now? There must be some effect we are not considering.

Also, if the salinity of the Mediterranean sea was increased slowly enough it might not effect sealife too much. A higher salinity would mean the return pipe doesn't have to be 1 km deep.


The water is flowing west because it is heavier than the water there (more dense). So the water in the atlantic tends to float over the denser water (i.e. east) and the denser water tends to sink under the lighter water to its west. In effect, the denser water just flows downhill as it would in air, but not as quickly since it is lighter water and not very much lighter air to the west.

Do you want to bet an ecosystem on your guess about the rate of increase of salinity? Especially if you don't allow for in and outmigration of the wildlife?

Yes, higher salinity would been less depth, but it would have to be a lot to be very significant and then the ecosystem dies.

I see now how the water flows. It's flowing because the height difference now isn't 2 meters. It's a bit less. By definition it's enough less that the backflow works with the 900m height difference there is (that's almost the required 1 km).

I don't understand your 2m reference. The height difference is actually 300m at the sill, not 900.

I am clumsy with words today. The straights are 900 meters deep at the deepest point. I assume that that's where the backflow happens.
The 2 meter came from an early post. It was a result from a calculation of the salinity difference. If you want a level difference of 2 meter between both sides of the dam then you need a backflow pipe 1 km deep.
By the way: nobody said anything about blocking migration. The backflow pipe would be big enough for wildlife to swim to the atlantic and a fish ladder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_ladder) of 1.5 meters of height wouldn't be a problem. Even at the massive scale required for large fishes
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:I wouldn't simply test the higher salinity in the Mediterranean. I'd start with an extensive research into the wildlife and the salinity it can accept without trouble. Then I'd increase the salinity to somewhere below that level. The increased salinity would force the wildlife to accept a higher salinity. Continuing research would indicate an allowed salinity. The salinity must be increased slowly to force the evolution.

I'd increase the salinity by building the dam, with a backflow hole on the bedrock. With the seawater level difference between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean the salinity level can be regulated.

Of course there are some snags.

Actually, I think it is all "snags". You are messing with things poorly understood with vast consequences. Again, hubris. What could possibly go wrong if we just insert a few genes into, say corn? Those genes couldn't possibly transfer to other food crops. (I was about to add "could they", but realized that question wasn't asked.

That was a known effect that they just ignored. I can't imagine that there were no biologists at Mosanta that said "Hey that may be a bad plan because..". They were silenced because of greed. Probably usually with money.
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:*Greed may drive the required electrical output up, thus the level difference and thus the salinity. That may kill the project due to mass death in the Mediterranean.
*Century plans are not the forte of political parties that need to produce results before the next election. (Don't get me wrong on that one.)

Again, sorry to be Cassandra, but the world is still only a poorly understood thing, as smart as we think we are. People over the ages have thought so too and introduced pests into different ecosystems with the same reasoning: I can control this. Nothing could possibly go wrong. I understand it thoroughly. Wrong, Wrong, and wrong again.

There is a vast difference between introducing a new species into an environment not able to handle it and carefully and slowly changing the salinity of a sea. Slowly changing salinity is something evolution can work with. A new species that is completely different from what's there is much bigger.
Even fast and uncontrolled salinity has been proven to be possible (albeit lowering salinity instead of increasing it): the Ijsselmeer (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ijsselmeer&hl=en&ll=52.787815,5.369568&spn=1.12288,2.469177&sll=51.842867,5.833131&sspn=0.149751,0.308647&t=h&hnear=IJsselmeer&z=9)is a thriving breeding ground for fishes. It lives, in a good way. It was a sea, until we dammed it off in 1932. Now it's salinity is low.
By the way: There is no way I could pull this off, because of the second snag. There is no way I would pull this off, because of the first snag.
Keep it cool

Actually, if I understand the geology, the 330 meter deep sill is across the straight to the west, not along it. The 900m deep was formed as a gouge as the water cam over the sill with force. I assume it is deepest some distance away from the sill (maybe to 30km?). But the flow (fresh to east, salty to west) will happen with nearly any depth. The only place the heavy stuff can go down is to the west under the fresh.

If the "backflow pipe" is a simple pipe (not a pump system), but 1km down, to allow the fish to pass, then they must be able to descend to 1km deep to find it. True for some, not all (probably not many). But unless it is humungous, it's not very useful for the fish. Needle in a haystack situation. If it is a siphon, then they need to be able to survive that trip. Nor do I think all the sea life is capable of navigating a fish ladder. Salmon and trout are used to travel up a gradient, but I think that is the exception. The deeper you make the pipe it the more flow it has (suction), and the longer and harder to navigate. I don't see it as an effective way to permit migration.

WRT the success of salinity changes, there are fish that can live in fresh. Are there fish that can live in extremely saline water? Perhaps. I assume the populations changed in the new meer.

And, I think you are making my point. You are sounding like Monsanto, poo poohing my objections. I don't think I'm going to convince you, though, and it isn't a real situation, so maybe we should just let it go, having different opinions on the subject.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby 42 guests » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

I was afraid that the Atlantic water was dissolving the salt deposits from beneath Cueball. (whew)

Whole towns sink into the ground when fresh water is used to extract salt.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Eliram » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:35 pm UTC

mindonner wrote:I've tasted (and floated in) the Dead Sea, and the difference between that and a regular sea is very noticeable. If the Mini-Med is that much saltier, then no wonder regular seawater tastes fresh in comparison.

Same here.

I also added my predictions to http://xkcd-time.wikia.com/wiki/Predictions. Liked the idea.
It's about time.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mindonner » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:36 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:WRT the success of salinity changes, there are fish that can live in fresh. Are there fish that can live in extremely saline water? Perhaps. I assume the populations changed in the new meer.


There's very little that can live in too-saline water. Brine shrimp and a few types of bacteria and not much else. It's one of the most hostile environments on the planet.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby shurikt » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:37 pm UTC

jovialbard wrote:
Valarya wrote:But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:


That's the conclusion I would come to.


Really?! I know we all love our prior conclusions (there's a name for that, right?), but I think that since they're used to river water as "fresh," they wouldn't necessarily call seawater "fresh," too.

Wow. I fail reading comprehension today. I'll go back to lurking now.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Tatiana » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:42 pm UTC

One thing that's sad about all the exciting developments in the story (to me) is that I used to be a perpetualist, and now because we have such an exciting story, I feel sure that it will end eventually. Back when we were just pottering around on the beach, and taking long walks in hopes of finding new stuff in the world, and perhaps casually wondering why the sea is rising, it seemed possible that it might go on forever. That's when I became a perpetualist, and was very happy that I could look forward to following the OTC and OTT for the rest of my life. Now, though, I have to face some far future life bereft of all your company.

Hopefully the OTC will be Lord of the Rings length, with many more interesting narrative episodes, widening our perspective and introducing new characters for us to love (with astonishing new headgear, possibly?) But I think eventually it will come to an end, and that idea makes me kind of sad.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SPACKlick » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:44 pm UTC

shurikt wrote:
jovialbard wrote:
Valarya wrote:But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:


That's the conclusion I would come to.


Really?! I know we all love our prior conclusions (there's a name for that, right?), but I think that since they're used to river water as "fresh," they wouldn't necessarily call seawater "fresh," too.


It's a matter of degree, You don't notice salinity at first, the water you drink and call fresh has a 200mg/L salt in it. If you lived by water that had over 40000mg/l salt in it how much would you notice?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Mikeski » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:48 pm UTC

shurikt wrote:
jovialbard wrote:
Valarya wrote:But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:

That's the conclusion I would come to.

Really?! I know we all love our prior conclusions (there's a name for that, right?), but I think that since they're used to river water as "fresh," they wouldn't necessarily call seawater "fresh," too.

How not-salty is their river, though? It flows to them across many miles of salty, dried-up seabed. And may be sourced from a small salt lake. I somehow doubt it's mountain-spring fresh. It might actually be saltier than the Atlantic.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Tatiana » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:50 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
shurikt wrote:
jovialbard wrote:
Valarya wrote:But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:

That's the conclusion I would come to.

Really?! I know we all love our prior conclusions (there's a name for that, right?), but I think that since they're used to river water as "fresh," they wouldn't necessarily call seawater "fresh," too.

How not-salty is their river, though? It flows to them across many miles of salty, dried-up seabed. And may be sourced from a small salt lake. I somehow doubt it's mountain-spring fresh. It might actually be saltier than the Atlantic.

If that were the case, I think they would all die from drinking the salty water. Unless they always used the steam bottle.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ZBerg » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:51 pm UTC

Latent22 wrote: OTVO Voting Time!
Vote for your favorite Cuegen Combination.
Results will be posted Here


I'm going to be a rebel. C9M2 is very close to the voices in my head... I mean, the voices as I hear them....

Back to lurker mode!(And I still can't post hyperlinks =/)

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SPACKlick » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:54 pm UTC

Tatiana wrote:
Spoiler:
Mikeski wrote:
shurikt wrote:
jovialbard wrote:
Valarya wrote:But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:

That's the conclusion I would come to.

Really?! I know we all love our prior conclusions (there's a name for that, right?), but I think that since they're used to river water as "fresh," they wouldn't necessarily call seawater "fresh," too.

How not-salty is their river, though? It flows to them across many miles of salty, dried-up seabed. And may be sourced from a small salt lake. I somehow doubt it's mountain-spring fresh. It might actually be saltier than the Atlantic.

If that were the case, I think they would all die from drinking the salty water. Unless they always used the steam bottle.

Unless they'd developed a tolerance to it over the thousands of years they'd been there. Possibly involving a small change in the genes of the kidney.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:56 pm UTC

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned, but http://what-if.xkcd.com is now available. Doesn't seem to be related, but I'm sure someone here will think of something. Enjoy.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pkcommando » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

FordONG

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Nilpferdschaf » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:01 pm UTC

SPACKlick wrote:
shurikt wrote:
jovialbard wrote:
Valarya wrote:But what are they calling fresh here? Is salty fresher than their previous sea but not as fresh as a river? :shock:


That's the conclusion I would come to.


Really?! I know we all love our prior conclusions (there's a name for that, right?), but I think that since they're used to river water as "fresh," they wouldn't necessarily call seawater "fresh," too.


It's a matter of degree, You don't notice salinity at first, the water you drink and call fresh has a 200mg/L salt in it. If you lived by water that had over 40000mg/l salt in it how much would you notice?


200mg/m3 and 40000mg/m3. 40kg of salt per liter is a bit much, even for the dead sea
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Zorin_75 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Tatiana wrote:If that were the case, I think they would all die from drinking the salty water. Unless they always used the steam bottle.

Ugh.
Go Minim go!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby k.bookbinder » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:08 pm UTC

Damn meetings. I am glad to see that Cuegan are not in immediate danger. Good call to all the OTTers that predicted his surprise at the decreased salinity and buoyancy of the water. OK, so someone with more brains than I, figure out what the salinity of the new Mediterranean would be if we had Dead Sea like salinity (or greater) suddenly mixing with copious volumes of Atlantic Ocean like salinity.
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chem1190c
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby chem1190c » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

Beware the Sea Molpy!
Spoiler:
Wait for it... then Run! Or Swim! if possible :lol:
Image





Don't click on this one:
Spoiler:
beware_the_sea_molpy.gif
Beware the Sea Molpy!
/at least I'm not a bowl of petunias/
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nerdsniped
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby nerdsniped » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

k.bookbinder wrote:Damn meetings. I am glad to see that Cuegan are not in immediate danger. Good call to all the OTTers that predicted his surprise at the decreased salinity and buoyancy of the water. OK, so someone with more brains than I, figure out what the salinity of the new Mediterranean would be if we had Dead Sea like salinity (or greater) suddenly mixing with copious volumes of Atlantic Ocean like salinity.

I don't know much about these things, but I guess the new water might be riding on top? In which case it will pretty much just be straight Atlantic salinity.
Last edited by nerdsniped on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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pkcommando
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pkcommando » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:12 pm UTC

chem1190c wrote:Beware the Sea Molpy!
Spoiler:
Wait for it... then Run! Or Swim! if possible :lol:
Image





Don't click on this one:
Spoiler:
beware_the_sea_molpy.gif

They'll be protected by the bag. It is THAT good - keeps out water and repels Sea Molpies.
"The Universe is for raptors now!" say Raptors, as they take over all of Universe.

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capnbuckle
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby capnbuckle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

Rule110 wrote:
capnbuckle wrote:This may already be obvious to everyone else...but if my math is correct, at the end of this NP, the OTC with slightly over 3000 panels will have generated 48,000 posts (and climbing!) in the OTT.

Wow.


That post was, in fact, the 48000th. (At present; subject to change due to mods removing posts and/or new delayed firstposts appearing upthread.)



Heh. I couldn't have planned that goat better if I tried!

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Caswallon
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Caswallon » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

nerdsniped wrote:
k.bookbinder wrote:Damn meetings. I am glad to see that Cuegan are not in immediate danger. Good call to all the OTTers that predicted his surprise at the decreased salinity and buoyancy of the water. OK, so someone with more brains than I, figure out what the salinity of the new Mediterranean would be if we had Dead Sea like salinity (or greater) suddenly mixing with copious volumes of Atlantic Ocean like salinity.

I don't know much about these things, but I guess the new water might be riding on top? In which case it will pretty much just be straight Atlantic salinity.

There may be a small degree of separation at first (Although, the incoming water may also be colder than the new Mediterranean and therefore sink), but my assumption would be that it would mix in a relatively short timeframe.

And the volume of the incoming Sea will be substantially more than the new Mediterranean, and therefore balance out to a salinity essentially the same as the Pacific.
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