1277: "Ayn Random"

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osiris
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby osiris » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:22 am UTC

Alt text should be: "Objectivist-oriented programming?"

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby JeromeWest » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:39 am UTC

baardvark wrote:This gets posted mere days after I have the sudden realization that Rand Paul was probably named after Ayn Rand.

Clearly I was getting psychic interference from Randall's writing brainstorm.


Psychic, you say? Better call James Randi.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Klear » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:45 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Sorry, I took your response as arguing against the idea that you should treat everything Ayn Rand wrote as wrong.

I would say that, once something's been shown to be sometimes wrong, treating it as always right is more wrong than ignoring it entirely and looking for truths elsewhere.

It may be possible to find good ideas in Ayn Rand's philosophy, but that doesn't mean that you're not better off finding those same ideas elsewhere with fewer (or at least different) wrong ideas mixed in...
I think you should reread my reply to nitePhyrre. Since you seem to be confused about what I meant;
I feel that Rand had some correct positions, things I can agree with and believe in. I also feel there was a lot of wrong positions, things I disagree with and don't hold to. I find that blithely accepting her philosophy is foolish (die hard liberaterians), just like I find blithely disregarding it to be foolish (what nitePhyrre was suggesting). I do in fact believe you shouldn't treat everything Rand wrote as wrong. Which I stated. I also feel you shouldn't take everything she wrote as right. I also stated as much.

Respectfully, I think this was pretty plainly outlined in my posts, and I'm not sure what turned you about.


Blithely disregarding Rand has worked for me so far. I know just enough about her to be able to understand this comic, more or less, I know her philosophy doesn't resonate with me too well and I've heard from numerous sources that there's a lot of bullshit involved (some of which I've seen, well, second-hand). There is no reason for me to study her in depth just to see if there are some ideas I can agree with.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:47 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:The complicated fuzzy notion of property rights we currently have enshrined in custom and law doesn't in any way undermine an argument that moral property rights are simple and clear-cut. Rand is arguing that things ought to be some way and you're saying they aren't that way, which is a non-sequitur.

Maybe I misunderstood her fundamental argument, but the impression I got was always that she believed property rights could be derived from an objective analysis of reality. She never seemed to argue that things should be this way, but rather that they were.

I don't recall her ever launching into a persuasive argument re: property rights; I'd be curious to see something of hers that argues a "should" over an "is".

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:11 pm UTC

Klear wrote:There is no reason for me to study her in depth just to see if there are some ideas I can agree with.
Good thing I said nothing of studying her in depth then, eh?
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Klear » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:24 pm UTC

You said disregarding her is foolish. If you didn't mean that we should get acquainted with her philosophy, I must have misunderstood you.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:32 pm UTC

I think that the lessons Ayn Rand has to teach us are probably worth learning elsewhere.

Though she did have some nice parables.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:36 pm UTC

Klear wrote:You said disregarding her is foolish. If you didn't mean that we should get acquainted with her philosophy, I must have misunderstood you.
I also said I felt she had valuable things to say. If 'get acquainted with her philosophy' means 'read a book', then yes, people could/should/might want to do that. If not, shrug.

But you didn't say 'get acquainted with her philosophy'. You said 'study her in depth'.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:54 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Klear wrote:You said disregarding her is foolish. If you didn't mean that we should get acquainted with her philosophy, I must have misunderstood you.
I also said I felt she had valuable things to say. If 'get acquainted with her philosophy' means 'read a book', then yes, people could/should/might want to do that. If not, shrug.

Well, if I add her to my imaginary queue of the books I "could/should/might want" to read, she will still be there after I'm gone. Is there any reason to raise her priority in that queue?

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:09 pm UTC

Meh, as TGH said, you can get the gyst elsewhere. I thought Atlas Shrugged was long winded, but enjoyed The Fountainhead. I don't think she's a terribly good writer, truthfully, as her narratives are pretty heavy handed and her characters are far too shallow. She outlines her case, and her characters kind of predictably go through the motions.

That said, there are a bunch of 'classics' I'd place waaaaaaaaaaay beneath her stuff, in terms of literary value, skill of storytelling, and interesting characters.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Klear » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Meh, as TGH said, you can get the gyst elsewhere. I thought Atlas Shrugged was long winded, but enjoyed The Fountainhead. I don't think she's a terribly good writer, truthfully, as her narratives are pretty heavy handed and her characters are far too shallow. She outlines her case, and her characters kind of predictably go through the motions.


I don't want to drag this out too much, but why is it so bad to blithely ignore her then?

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:57 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I feel that Rand had some correct positions, things I can agree with and believe in. I also feel there was a lot of wrong positions, things I disagree with and don't hold to. I find that blithely accepting her philosophy is foolish (die hard liberaterians), just like I find blithely disregarding it to be foolish (what nitePhyrre was suggesting). I do in fact believe you shouldn't treat everything Rand wrote as wrong. Which I stated. I also feel you shouldn't take everything she wrote as right. I also stated as much.

Respectfully, I think this was pretty plainly outlined in my posts, and I'm not sure what turned you about.


I was assuming that "disregarding Rand's philosophy is foolish" was supposed to follow from "Rand's philosophy is a mix of good and bad" rather than being an independent assertion.

I disagree with it anyway - my assessment based on distorted reports and hearsay is that I am extremely unlikely to get enough out of investigating Rand's philosophy to make it worth the opportunity cost of doing so.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby ucim » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:57 pm UTC

@Pfhorrest - Yes, I agree that we are agreeing. I was making the point of making the same point as you in a different way. My question "what does it mean for a right to exist" translates into "why[\i] is someone obligated to do x for Bob?" or "[i]why should nobody prevent Bob from doing x?" (depending on the right in question), and the answer "because it's objectively correct" (or somesuch) is circularly unsatisfying.

Simple case whose underlying premise we'd probably all agree with: "why should nobody try to kill (an innocent) Bob?" I'm not asking the question, but asking how the answer should be framed. That is what reveals one's thinking about the origin of natural or moral rights.

My (limited) understanding of Ayn is that her "should" (be respected) derives from her "is" (a moral right). I have no problem with that leap, but I have a problem with her "is", and her penchant for applying it where I don't think it belongs.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:06 pm UTC

Because the statement wasn't 'she's worth ignoring but has some interesting ideas that can be found elsewhere, which I am aware of/have read/plan on reading, or 'I'll read one of her books and pick and choose what I feel is worth hanging onto'. It was 'she's worth ignoring'.

I don't think she's worth ignoring. I don't think she's worth basing an at face value philosophical outlook on either. If you really have beef with her in particular, you should/could/might want to at least read some other influential works in her vein of thought. If you want to talk about cyberpunk but hate the way Stephenson wrote, at least read some Gibson, or vice versa or whatever.

rmsgrey wrote:I was assuming that "disregarding Rand's philosophy is foolish" was supposed to follow from "Rand's philosophy is a mix of good and bad" rather than being an independent assertion.
Dude, respectfully, reread what I've written. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time following it. It's not an independent assertion, it's a heavily qualified statement. We've even further modified the statement to include 'Ignore Rand if you'd like, but at least be familiar with other influences that led to her outlook'.
Izawwlgood wrote:I find that blithely accepting her philosophy is foolish (die hard liberaterians), just like I find blithely disregarding it to be foolish (what nitePhyrre was suggesting). I do in fact believe you shouldn't treat everything Rand wrote as wrong. Which I stated. I also feel you shouldn't take everything she wrote as right. I also stated as much.
I'm not sure how you could read this to say "ignoring her is dumb!" or "adhere to her every word!"
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:47 pm UTC

Yeah, at the very least, we need to stop to consider the consequences of giving this ideology such a central role in the American legislature.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Klear » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:49 pm UTC

Hmm... I guess if you're living in the US, you have at least some motivation to get acquainted with Rand... That might be the reason for the disagreement.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby NiteClerk » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:00 pm UTC

Monika wrote: ..... People who dislike Rand and Rand fans and the tea party and most aspects of the Republican Party: You, Rand and Rand fans and co are uncaring animals. The state not only has the right, but the obligation to provide welfare. Money to buy food and pay rent and other essential stuff. Free health care for those who can't afford insurance.


I disagree with this. Should the state (meaning taxpayers) support a healthy 18 year old who chooses to not work? Provide them a house in California or Hawaii for life? If they get rent, then they should not have satellite, smart phones, cigarettes or air conditioning. If the state is going to give them food then it should be mostly beans and rice. Not pizza and steak. Heart and lung transplants? Where does it end? Free medical care should be limited to inoculations, possibly setting broken bones and extracting teeth.

And this shall be paid by mandatory taxes, not by voluntary donations, because that simply does not raise sufficient funds and also it's not fair.


Life is not fair. Boo hoo. You probably have a smart phone and a laptop. There are people in Uganda who have neither. We should take away your toys and give them to Ugandans to make life more fair. Maybe move 10 people into your house to make things fair to the homeless. Do you have more than 2 changes of clothing? That's not fair to the homeless. They should be given your "extra" clothing so everything is fair.

When the government supports people they have no incentive to get out and work. In the U.S. people have a chance to change their circumstances. Example: Herman Cain, born to dirt poor parents. He went on to become a multimillionaire. I own rental properly. I remember years ago I had to replace the water line from the shut off valve by the sidewalk into the house. It was about 20 feet, but there was too much stuff in the way to get a backhoe in position. So I started digging with shovels and a pick about 7:00 in the morning. Around 11:00 one of the welfare neighbors comes out and looks at me. Lights a cigarette and goes inside. He then comes outside with a beer. He said, "It's not fair that you have so much and I don't have anything." I didn't reply. But I know his house was a Section 8 rental, where the government pays the rent. He was probably on food stamps. Maybe if the government did not support him and his kids he would get up early and look for a job. But he is who I think of whenever I hear the it's not fair whine.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:09 pm UTC

NiteClerk wrote:
Monika wrote: ..... People who dislike Rand and Rand fans and the tea party and most aspects of the Republican Party: You, Rand and Rand fans and co are uncaring animals. The state not only has the right, but the obligation to provide welfare. Money to buy food and pay rent and other essential stuff. Free health care for those who can't afford insurance.


I disagree with this. Should the state (meaning taxpayers) support a healthy 18 year old who chooses to not work?

Does scholarship count?

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:11 pm UTC

NiteClerk wrote:Life is not fair. Boo hoo. You probably have a smart phone and a laptop. There are people in Uganda who have neither. We should take away your toys and give them to Ugandans to make life more fair.
If giving up my phone and laptop would be sufficient to bring prosperity to a deeply troubled country, I would happily give up my phone and laptop. If taking your phone and laptop would do the same, I would happily take them from you -- even by applying some considerable quantity of force.

Sometimes, I think the difference between children and adults is that children see these problems as simple, and think only in parables.

Basically, I'm saying your position is indistinguishable from that of a ten year old, and I hope you one day grow out of it.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:50 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:If giving up my phone and laptop would be sufficient to bring prosperity to a deeply troubled country, I would happily give up my phone and laptop. If taking your phone and laptop would do the same, I would happily take them from you -- even by applying some considerable quantity of force.

This.

(I know I'm kinda breaking the forum's rules, but anyway).

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:01 pm UTC

Klear wrote:Hmm... I guess if you're living in the US, you have at least some motivation to get acquainted with Rand... That might be the reason for the disagreement.
I don't think the Tea Party can call themselves libertarians truthfully. I at least feel like they've besmirched the outlook, particularly with how heavily they want influence citizens private lives and reduce equalizing opportunities for those who aren't born rich.

Another reason I suggest reading at least one of Rands novels; this notion that being poor means you're a bad person is really not something she advocates. A good number of her 'good guys' aren't financially successful by any stretch of the mind.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby addams » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:08 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Klear wrote:You said disregarding her is foolish. If you didn't mean that we should get acquainted with her philosophy, I must have misunderstood you.
I also said I felt she had valuable things to say. If 'get acquainted with her philosophy' means 'read a book', then yes, people could/should/might want to do that. If not, shrug.

Well, if I add her to my imaginary queue of the books I "could/should/might want" to read, she will still be there after I'm gone. Is there any reason to raise her priority in that queue?

No.
There is no pressing reason to move her work to the top of your queue.

If you are a PoliSci Major they will Force You to read it. (poor you)
Some PoliSci Majors insisted that I read Atlas Shrugged.

I loved the Title. I expected great things.
ech. meh. I was an Adult! I was not in a class!

I did not finish that stupid book. Atlas Shrugged
What a wonderful title. Atlas held the world on his shoulders.

I knew about Atlas. We each have our own relationships to our common Fairy Tails.

I like Science. After I read some Ayn Rand, there was a period of time when I was willing to raise my voice and say,
"Politics is Not a Science!"

Maybe, I was wrong. Politics is a weird ass science. It is Marketing and Psychology and Marketing and Policy and Marketing and Dinner out with Friends while the Buss Boy Blows the Commisonr and his friend and that is on a good day.

I don't know what to think about those guys that do S&M for fun and then the S. guys go all Rogue.
I can't know how to think about that. When it is consenting adults then it is non of my Business.

It is non of my Business otherwise, either. Politics is also about Justice. In some strange way it is.
We somehow collectively do something. We are a Social Creature.

Ayn Rand did not sufficiently address Atlas and why he might shrug.
Not to my satisfaction and I could tell she was Not going to get around to it.

Boring fucking book. And; From the eye of a fourteen year old girl it all made total sense.
If you are a fourteen year old girl with Royal Blood and you are being treated like a Commoner;
Ayn Rand may meet your emotional needs.

The Metamorphosis by Kafka does the same kind of thing for the Non-Noble Commoner.
Pulp Fiction. People did not have YouTube!

Poor, poor people with no YouTube. Books were as Trashy as can be sometimes.
Was Atlas Shrugged trashy? No. It was boring.

What do you have on your list, now?
Did you have to pull yourself through, 'Grapes of Wrath'?
Did you read, 'Man's Search for Meaning' by V. Frankle?

Have you read, 'Number the Stars' by Laurly?
How about 'The Field Guide to the Atomosphere'?

The Field Guide to the Atmosphere was a Great Book!
I read it and reread it. By the time I was done with that book it was in pieces.

Page numbers are not only for assigned reading.
Page numbers help when putting books back together when they have fallen apart from use and reuse.

Books are a good idea. Some books are better than others.
Books often meet our emotional needs.

Fourteen year old girls with Delusions of Nobility are a common and JUST FINE type of person.
The story of Cinderella is the same kind of story. Cinderella stories usually have a happy ending.

If a fifty year old man still sees himself as a displaced Princess, that might be a problem.
And; Maybe, not. Royals are required to be Noble even when the other girls are Trashy.

With all this discussion of Rand, Ayn's book you might need to pick up a copy.

Read the fist few lines.
Jump to the middle.
Look at he thing for a while.

What do you think?
Don't read it, if you are not enjoying it.

On xkcd some poster wrote there is one sentence in that book that is two pages long.
That is funny. English Major? Find that sentence and diagram it. (so funny.)

Enough from me. 'Cannery Row' by Stienbeck was made into a black and white movie.
The young Nick Noltie dances. That movie is better than the book.

Do that and skip Ayn Rand's lecture.
Ayn Rand is on YouTube, too.

It is easier to listen to her explain her positions than it is to read her books.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby NiteClerk » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:24 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
NiteClerk wrote: .. I disagree with this. Should the state (meaning taxpayers) support a healthy 18 year old who chooses to not work?

Does scholarship count?


I would say that there should be some rational criteria for scholarship. Such as decent grades in high school, the ACT or SAT. I don't support paying for people to go to college who could barely finish high school. Also we should take the major into account. I would want the money to go towards someone who stood a chance of getting a job, repaying the loan and then paying taxes in the future. An investment in other words. The governments profit would come from future tax collections.

I will admit that I'm biased towards science, engineering and technology over art appreciation and political science. I got such a kick out of the Occupy Wall Street fools who had a degree in Women's Studies and Comparative Religion, then complained that they are $70,000 in debt and can't get a job.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:30 pm UTC

I disagree addams, but I think like a lot of extreme political perspectives, some people are just turned off from anything Rand is suggesting. Atlas Shrugged, I think, did a meh job showing the ongoing struggle of Atlas, and the eventual cessation of that struggle. But I felt the title was appropriate, the warning somewhat on point if the outcome entirely fear-mongery. The biggest problem I have with Rand as an author is how utterly black and white her heroes/villains are down to being physically strong, blond, beautiful, or twisting oily mustaches, how long it takes her to get to the fucking point, and how subjugated her women are. Her WRITING feels like too much narcissism, self-projection, and intellectual masturbation for me to take terribly seriously.

I've other criticisms of the philosophy, but you seemed to be criticizing her writing.

NiteClerk wrote:I will admit that I'm biased towards science, engineering and technology over art appreciation and political science. I got such a kick out of the Occupy Wall Street fools who had a degree in Women's Studies and Comparative Religion, then complained that they are $70,000 in debt and can't get a job.
As a scientist, I think you're an idiot for saying this. To the second part, I strongly urge you to dig a little deeper than the knee jerk reaction of 'nuh uh your field of study is poo poo stupid'.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:40 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:To the second part, I strongly urge you to dig a little deeper than the knee jerk reaction of 'nuh uh your field of study is poo poo stupid'.

Sounds like foofy humanities talk to me! Didn't you say you're a scientist?
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Not even sporange.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:43 pm UTC

'Words' don't have 'meaning', man.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:23 pm UTC

NiteClerk wrote:I would say that there should be some rational criteria for scholarship. Such as decent grades in high school, the ACT or SAT. I don't support paying for people to go to college who could barely finish high school. Also we should take the major into account. I would want the money to go towards someone who stood a chance of getting a job, repaying the loan and then paying taxes in the future. An investment in other words. The governments profit would come from future tax collections.

An investment?

You seem to believe that law and order come for free.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:36 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:If giving up my phone and laptop would be sufficient to bring prosperity to a deeply troubled country, I would happily give up my phone and laptop. If taking your phone and laptop would do the same, I would happily take them from you -- even by applying some considerable quantity of force.

Sometimes, I think the difference between children and adults is that children see these problems as simple, and think only in parables.

Basically, I'm saying your position is indistinguishable from that of a ten year old, and I hope you one day grow out of it.

Nice personal attack.

What's wrong with his actual statement, other than it not aligning with your position? (And what is your position? All I see in this post is "a difference in relative prosperity between two humans is evil (or, at least, more evil than armed robbery)." I don't see how you can remove all drive to better oneself, or provide more for our children, from our species, so you can't get rid of differences in relative prosperity. And it seems you see that too, since you started those sentences with "If"... So, why is he wrong, and why is your position not as childish and parable-y as his? I just see government-as-Robin-Hood in yours.)

Yes, there are people who need help. We're helping them. We're also helping a lot of folks who don't need help; 40-plus percent of us should not need government assistance at a personal level.

And we're taking a lot of folks who could improve themselves (and thus be in a better position to help others), and we're putting a giant boot on their neck.

If I decide to get a better job that pays more money, I should have more stuff for me and my kids, and the government should have more of what I make (or they should be giving me less of what others make). I shouldn't have the same amount of stuff. I certainly shouldn't have less stuff. But if I'm (relatively) poor, that's exactly what I get. Less stuff.

The current system in the USA tells, for example, a single mother of two in Pennsylvania "don't make any more than $29000... unless you can get a 140% raise to jump right to $70000." Maybe some folks are that awesome, but I generally get single-digit-percent raises.

Image

This graph is our government saying "we'd rather keep you poor, and voting for the wonderful (rich) folks who provide for you." And it is the result of the human nature acting upon your (apparent) philosophy about prosperity and property and income redistribution.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby addams » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:41 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
NiteClerk wrote:I would say that there should be some rational criteria for scholarship. Such as decent grades in high school, the ACT or SAT. I don't support paying for people to go to college who could barely finish high school. Also we should take the major into account. I would want the money to go towards someone who stood a chance of getting a job, repaying the loan and then paying taxes in the future. An investment in other words. The governments profit would come from future tax collections.

An investment?

You seem to believe that law and order come for free.

My Nation allowed me to go to the Local Community College.

I did not get decent grades in High School.
I would not meet your criteria.

I did not go to High School.
Not much. I skipped school.

One time I was living up in the Mountains.
Long story. The Facts are I skipped school.

What did I do?
Sometimes I stood by a partially frozen creek and watched the water.

I was an idiot. Skirts were short. Thank the Gods, socks were long.

But; As it turned out, Some Liberal Weird-O's were making Big Decisions that would effect us all.
They built some schools and allowed The People to go to school, after high school and before University or The Salt Mines.

I took a Transmission Class. I was horrible.
I took a Wood Working Class the men Screamed.

I took Physical Chemistry and I had never had a Math class.

Math astounded and confounded me. Math was something other people did. Not me.
My Brother did math. If Math needs to be done, ask some Man that knows math.

Today in the 21st century a Woman can do math if she is born with the Math Gene.
I knew a woman that was born with the Math Gene.
She was something and then some. I liked her. What a mind. What a body.

That is what killed her. Having a body is required and it is the absolute fatal flaw.
Anyone that has a body can die. That is, just, fact. She died while being herself.

If the bar to an education is set too high, some people will still be reading Tails of Long Forgotten.....
ech. Maybe, not.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby NiteClerk » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:45 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote: If taking your phone and laptop would do the same, I would happily take them from you -- even by applying some considerable quantity of force.


This is the same rational that muggers and thieves use.

The Great Hippo wrote:Sometimes, I think the difference between children and adults is that children see these problems as simple, and think only in parables.
Basically, I'm saying your position is indistinguishable from that of a ten year old, and I hope you one day grow out of it.


That's almost funny. Have you ever seen a kid playing with a toy, then another kid comes along who wants the toy and tries to take it away from the first kid? That is your position. Using force to take something you want from someone else.

I have a comfortable life and pay a lot in taxes. What I object to is poor people who think they are entitled to the same lifestyle I have. If you want a more materialistic life then develop a skill that people will pay you more for. In the meantime don't complain about being poor while you have a smart phone, $60/month data plan, cigarettes, alcohol, cable t.v. and air conditioning.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:59 pm UTC

NiteClerk wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote: If taking your phone and laptop would do the same, I would happily take them from you -- even by applying some considerable quantity of force.


This is the same rational that muggers and thieves use.

And sometimes people love them for it. Heard of Robin Hood?

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:04 pm UTC

NiteClerk wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote: If taking your phone and laptop would do the same, I would happily take them from you -- even by applying some considerable quantity of force.


This is the same rational that muggers and thieves use.

What mugger thinks that a particular act of mugging will bring prosperity to a developing country?
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:12 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
NiteClerk wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote: If taking your phone and laptop would do the same, I would happily take them from you -- even by applying some considerable quantity of force.


This is the same rational that muggers and thieves use.

What mugger thinks that a particular act of mugging will bring prosperity to a developing country?

Robin Hood? Also foxes are cute.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:20 pm UTC

(Note that Robin Hood was fighting the government, not being the government. He's an example in favor of private charity, not redistributionist politics.)

Kit.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:29 pm UTC

(Well, one more point for getting redistribution of wealth done by governments and not by private charities)

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm UTC

Which would work, except, again, for human nature. People really do "go Galt" (to pull this back kinda-on-topic).

And they do so at every income level, from the poor immigrant working for cash "under the table", to middle-class folks angling for every tax writeoff they can get, to Apple Corp keeping $100+ billion "in Ireland".

Image

...the government can try to redistribute all it wants, but it gets about 19% of everything, whether it asks the filthy-rich for 24% or 92%.

Reality is a harsh mistress.

Kit.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:56 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:People really do "go Galt" (to pull this back kinda-on-topic).

Oh, nice!

As the name implies, this is inspired by the character of John Galt, the "hero" of Ayn Rand's Objectivist doorstopper, Atlas Shrugged, who destroys civilization to avoid paying taxes. They apparently think this is a good idea, and hope to follow in his footsteps.

In the novel, John Galt declared his opposition to collectivism by starting a collective called Galt's Gulch. He expressed his opposition to organized labor by organizing (what else?) a strike.

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:58 pm UTC

...because the schoolteacher in Kansas looking for tax writeoffs is destroying the world. Hyperbole as an argument, frankly, sucks.

C-minus for effort, though.

(Human nature is still human nature, so I suppose I should expect snark on the internets, eh?)

Kit.
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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Kit. » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:03 pm UTC

Sure. So, what's wrong with tax writeoffs?

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Re: 1277: "Ayn Random"

Postby Klear » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:04 pm UTC

I don't see how "there are people who get welfare benefits that they don't deserve" means "welfare shouldn't exist at all".


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