1287: "Puzzle"

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Maurits
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Maurits » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:55 pm UTC

With that pawn formation, I'm surprised to see a Knight on c3 and a Bishop on d2. It would be more usual to push the c-pawn (usually to c4), develop the Knight to d2, and either let the Bishop sit on c1 or potentially fianchetto it to b2.

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cellocgw
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:03 pm UTC

Maurits wrote:With that pawn formation, I'm surprised to see a Knight on c3 and a Bishop on d2. It would be more usual to push the c-pawn (usually to c4), develop the Knight to d2, and either let the Bishop sit on c1 or potentially fianchetto it to b2.


Sure, but that's only when playing against black chess pieces. Against black Go stones, a completely different strategy is called for, probably involving beesnakes and molpys.
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cct
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby cct » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:04 pm UTC

Mornington Crescent, on the XKCD "Subways of North America" map?

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philsov
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby philsov » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:25 pm UTC

White can't win, right? There's no other king to checkmate.

On the other hand, black is set to win. If this is Pente, just make a row of 5 and you win. If Go, they'll have the territory advantage.

Fun note: In chess, white goes first. In Go, black goes first.
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Mr. Burke
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Mr. Burke » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:09 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
ZNemesis wrote:Clearly the only reasonable conclusion is that since Black and White both have the first move, they play their moves simultaneously.
Actually, has anyone ever played simultaneous chess? Sounds like it could be fun.
Both players write down their moves on a piece of paper, then move their pieces at the same time. Could be mighty interesting.

We called it "Diplomacy Chess". Turns out you have to amend the rules quite a bit.

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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby standingwave » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:32 pm UTC

I check-raise "all-in."

Interesting. The two games I play most often on my (Android) phone are Chess Free and Go Free.

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Earthling on Mars
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Earthling on Mars » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:33 pm UTC

Explain xkcd has a copy of the mustard version:

Image

Tolvor
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Tolvor » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:03 pm UTC

I was also curious about this board position, and how it got that way (after the odd third bishop was removed in 1st ed of comic). I checked out this position in Mega Database 2013. This setup by white seems to be the result of a Reti Opening (see game 1 below), or maybe a Tartakower System / Modern Defence (game 2 below). It is impossible to score the positional strength of these White pieces without seeing Black's moves (Go pieces don't count), but the majority of the games with this setup indicate that White is in trouble and usually loses. There is very few chess master (2000+) rated games with this position.

As to the "Dude, your move can't be '0-1'. Don't write that down." I don't care what my opponent writes down. Move notation is for your own benefit and for resolving board disputes (oops, the board fell over...). Secondly, NO talking during a game or while other games are in progress. That includes the words 'check' and 'checkmate'.

Games included below for the curious and the chess nuts (like me).


[Event "Prague Viktoria"]
[Site "Prague"]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Melikset Bek, E."]
[Black "Belaska, Premysl"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D00"]
[BlackElo "2320"]
[PlyCount "115"]
[EventDate "1991.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "CZE"]
[EventCategory "5"]
[SourceDate "1996.11.15"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. d4 e6 4. e3 Bb4 5. Bd2 O-O 6. Bd3 b6 7. O-O Bb7 8. Re1
c5 9. a3 Bxc3 10. Bxc3 Ne4 11. Nd2 f5 12. g3 Nd7 13. Be2 Ndf6 14. f4 Nxd2 15.
Bxd2 a5 16. Bf3 Ne4 17. Bxe4 fxe4 18. dxc5 bxc5 19. Bc3 Qb6 20. Be5 Rad8 21. c3
Rd7 22. Rb1 Ra8 23. b4 axb4 24. axb4 cxb4 25. Rxb4 Qa5 26. Qb3 Bc8 27. Rb1 Kf7
28. Qd1 g6 29. Qg4 Qc5 30. Bd4 Qe7 31. Qh3 Ke8 32. Rb8 Rxb8 33. Rxb8 Rc7 34.
Be5 Rc6 35. Qf1 Qa7 36. Kf2 Qa2+ 37. Qe2 Qxe2+ 38. Kxe2 h5 39. Kf2 Ke7 40. Kg2
Bd7 41. Kh3 Ra6 42. Rb2 d4 43. cxd4 Ra3 44. Re2 Bb5 45. Re1 Ra2 46. Rb1 Be2 47.
Kh4 Bg4 48. Kg5 Bf5 49. Rb7+ Ke8 50. Rb8+ Kd7 51. Rb7+ Kc6 52. Rc7+ Kb5 53. h3
Rg2 54. g4 hxg4 55. hxg4 Rxg4+ 56. Kf6 Rg2 57. d5 exd5 58. Bd4 1/2-1/2

-------------------------------------------------

[Event "Oberliga Nord W 0203"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "2003.01.26"]
[Round "5.7"]
[White "Salzenberg, Dirk"]
[Black "Zschischang, Gunnar"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A41"]
[WhiteElo "2212"]
[BlackElo "2200"]
[PlyCount "97"]
[EventDate "2002.10.20"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[SourceDate "2003.11.25"]
[WhiteTeam "Hameln"]
[BlackTeam "Jever"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "GER"]
[BlackTeamCountry "GER"]

1. d4 Nc6 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bg5 h6 4. Bd2 Nf6 5. Nc3 Bg4 6. e3 e5 7. d5 Ne7 8. e4 c6
9. dxc6 bxc6 10. Be2 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Bd3 Be7 13. O-O O-O 14. Re1 Nd7 15. Na4
Bf6 16. c4 Nf4 17. Bf1 Nb6 18. c5 Nxa4 19. Qxa4 dxc5 20. Qxc6 Rc8 21. Qa6 Qb6
22. Bc3 Qb8 23. Red1 Rfd8 24. b3 Qa8 25. Re1 Qb8 26. Rad1 Ng6 27. Bc4 Bd7 28.
Qa3 Bc6 29. Rxd8+ Rxd8 30. Qxc5 Qb7 31. Qe3 Qc7 32. Bb2 Qe7 33. g3 h5 34. h4
Nf8 35. Bc1 a5 36. Ng5 Bxg5 37. Qxg5 Qxg5 38. Bxg5 Rd4 39. f3 Ne6 40. Be3 Rd6
41. Kf2 Nd4 42. Rd1 Rd7 43. Bxd4 exd4 44. Ke2 Kf8 45. Kd3 Ke7 46. f4 f5 47.
exf5 Kf6 48. Re1 Rd6 49. Re6+ 1-0

rmsgrey
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:28 pm UTC

Ironwood wrote:This is my second attempt to comment that the white King and Queen are reversed. On a chessboard one always has a white square on the near right corner.


Both the old version hosted on Explain xkcd (with the three bishops) and the version I see currently have the queen to the left of the king, on d1, which is correct.

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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Nex Angelus » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:45 pm UTC

It seems to me the only feasible way to win this game, since chess moves in the squares (assumed 2D-space), and Go on the intersections (essentially 1D-space filling curve), is by Divine Intervention.

Bonus for the winner: You are entitled to mock the other player mercilessly.

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Red Hal
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Red Hal » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:16 pm UTC

Roll for initiative.
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silverkitty
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby silverkitty » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:32 pm UTC

ctdonath wrote:just like the fact that a Go board has a whole lot more squares than that.

9x9 is an accepted Go board - usually for teach noobs basics of tactics
13x13 is considered a "lunch hour" board size
19x19 is the standard for "real" play

and the 9x9 board conveniently has 8x8 squares in between the intersections where you play, thus the ability for white to even consider the possibility that it is a Chess board.

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PinkShinyRose
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:35 pm UTC

Well, according to wikipedia the whole coloured tiles thing is kind of a recent invention for chess (12th century) so it could still be a retro chessboard.

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neoliminal
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby neoliminal » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:37 pm UTC

First, this:

http://www.chessvariants.org/link2.dir/srchess.html

Only serious players understand any of the rules.

As for simultaneous chess, it's non-trivial. I have a set of rules that require paradoxes to be resolved by the color of the square the paradox is in.

In this hybrid, chess and go, you can't do it with chess rules because there is no opposing King to capture for White (although you could lose if your King had it's liberties removed... ) Go is most likely to win because there is a lot of territory that white can't get to... although white can capture without needing to smother a piece.

Ok, fine, I'll make the rules up.
...
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Sillyman
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Sillyman » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:41 am UTC

neoliminal wrote:Ok, fine, I'll make the rules up.
...

Your insistence on doing such an absurd feat, as well as the precise wording of the caption of this comic, has given me a rather brilliant idea for a similar abomination. I apologize if this obviates the need to carry out your plans. Do note that I have not playtested the following. (Is it interesting to play? It seems to be at least interesting to figure out if it is interesting to play.)

White to Continue Insisting: A hybrid game
This is a board game for two players played with the following components:
One set of white chess pieces.
A theoretically infinite number of black go stones (At least 80 and a tally sheet would provably suffice in practice)
A board consisting of an orthogonal grid of nine intersections by nine intersections (or, equivalently, eight spaces by eight spaces).

The setup:
A player is chosen to play white. The other player shall play black. The players sit near opposite sides of the board.
White places his chess pieces on the two rows of the board's spaces nearest to him in standard FIDE position.

The order of play:
Black either places a stone on any legal intersection (that is, one which is unoccupied and which either has at least one diagonal liberty or will capture a piece to immediately create one), then resolves all captures made by this play; or says "pass", indicating that he cannot or does not wish to make a play. Black then examines the board for check, checkmate, or stalemate.
White then makes a legal chess move (by the rules of FIDE chess, with the additional requirements that the move may not result in a repeat board state at the end of his turn, and that pieces may not move through or to spaces where they would have no diagonal liberties unless making a capture that would open a liberty - though knights may jump over such spaces), promotes pawns if applicable (as per FIDE rules), then resolves all captures made by this play. Repeat.

Capturing and check:
After any move, all stones and chess pieces with no diagonal liberties are removed from the board. This is referred to as capturing.
A diagonal liberty is an unoccupied space touching the intersection the stone in question is on, or an unoccupied intersection touching the space the piece in question is on.
(Unlike regular liberties in go, diagonal liberties may not be transferred through chains of pieces - as there cannot be an allied piece in the place required to be empty)
Pawns may move diagonally if and only if it would result in the capture of at least one stone. En passant capture does not apply.
White is considered to be in check if his king is in atari (that is, if it possesses only one diagonal liberty, so that it could be captured on the next turn).
As per FIDE rules, it is illegal for white to make a move that would put him in check or leave him in check, and if black's move places white in check, black should announce "check".

Ending the game, and scoring:
The game ends when black successfully reaches a board state from which white cannot possibly escape check (a condition known as checkmate) or a board state from which white has no legal moves, although white is not in check (a condition known as stalemate).
In the case of checkmate, white's score is the number of stones black has placed up to the moment of checkmate, counting captured stones. In the case of stalemate, it is the number of stones already placed plus the number of stones black would have to place to convert this stalemate into a checkmate (that is, three minus the number of liberties already blocked on white's king).
The players may wish to define a particular score as a target score for white to reach, or play two games in series, one with each player as each role, then compare scores afterward. In any case, white's objective is generally to reach a higher score.
Last edited by Sillyman on Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:10 am UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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VectorZero
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby VectorZero » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:45 am UTC

The Go player is clearly writing in Braille. It says "ar."

The rest I leave as an exercise for the reader.
Spoiler:
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:59 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:The obvious follow-up moves would be for black to put houses on Park Place and Boardwalk, and for white to play Swords to Plowshares to exile one of black's pieces.

But that's playing small ball; it won't get either of them closer to Mornington Crescent.

You know, for all the Saturday morning cartoons I've seen where kids play some weird made-up game that involves pieces from a bunch of different games, I have yet to see come up with a real, coherent game you can play that way. You'd think with there being such a vibrant community of tabletop gaming geeks out there on the Internet, one would have sprung up by now.
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Plasma Mongoose
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Plasma Mongoose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:21 am UTC

Borrowing James T Kirk's idea in the Corbomite Maneuver, "If you cannot win with chess, play poker instead."
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The virus replaces the bartender and says "Now we do!"

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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Jragonlord » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:30 am UTC

Tolvor wrote:I was also curious about this board position, and how it got that way

It's a Sicilian Defense variant known as "The Dragon", where the far three king-side pawns form the "head", and the far two queen-side pawns would advance three (for the farthest pawn) and two (for the second farthest). The question is why to play it - it's generally a strategy to use as black because it creates a lot of fire-and-forget placements for black, where they set up the piece, and that placement comes back to bite white in the end.

... or, at least, that's how I've quite successfully used it.

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JohnTheWysard
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby JohnTheWysard » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:32 am UTC

Interesting discussion, but I have to Go.

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da Doctah
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby da Doctah » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:17 am UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:Well, according to wikipedia the whole coloured tiles thing is kind of a recent invention for chess (12th century) so it could still be a retro chessboard.

There was a time I understood chess. Wasn't particularly good at it, because I never got the hang of looking as far ahead as the people I was playing against were accustomed to, but I could at least keep a board busy for twenty minutes before having to resign.

Eventually I lost interest in the game. When next I came back and looked at it, they'd all switched over to that weird algebraic notation and I couldn't make any sense out of it at all.

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Darekun
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Darekun » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:14 am UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:You know, for all the Saturday morning cartoons I've seen where kids play some weird made-up game that involves pieces from a bunch of different games, I have yet to see come up with a real, coherent game you can play that way. You'd think with there being such a vibrant community of tabletop gaming geeks out there on the Internet, one would have sprung up by now.

A big part of the problem is that if you're looking at Chess and Go, you're looking at deliberately-simplified games, and adding complexity to them doesn't really help. You're more likely to end up with a nomic sort of community, where the rules aren't fixed.

Now, a hybrid of Risk and Axis & Allies, with fast-play elements and bits of Conquest Of Pangea and INWO? Or Candyland+Poker with non-Markovian elements copied from all sorts of things? That's the kind of game that will show up on game night after game night. Actually, my online TTRPG group has a regular side game that started as a hybrid of Chess and Go, but then the use of dice as pieces kind of took over…

Unfortunately, I only seem to have the rules online for one of them, which is really weird in that last case.

There may be some over in Forum Games, or perhaps we should start one. What are your favorite "lavish complex" games?

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PinkShinyRose
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

What about diplomacy on a risk board? With the dark tiles as supply centres (and land division with risk cards?). Although I'm not sure about the seas, could they be delimited by the dotted lines between the landmasses?

EDIT: Maybe the other way around would work better...

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jalohones
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby jalohones » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:40 am UTC

ctdonath wrote:... a Go board has a whole lot more squares than that.


Not if it's a 9x9 board.

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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Noir_Desir » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:37 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
ZNemesis wrote:Clearly the only reasonable conclusion is that since Black and White both have the first move, they play their moves simultaneously.
Actually, has anyone ever played simultaneous chess? Sounds like it could be fun.
Both players write down their moves on a piece of paper, then move their pieces at the same time. Could be mighty interesting.


There was a game the end of which was played in "Simultaneous Chess". I am talking of the armageddon game Krush-Zatonskih for the female US chess championship some years ago.

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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby gcgcgcgc » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:22 pm UTC

If it's ChessGoBoxing, you could always still win with a knockout.

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Piogre
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Piogre » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:The obvious follow-up moves would be for black to put houses on Park Place and Boardwalk, and for white to play Swords to Plowshares to exile one of black's pieces.

But that's playing small ball; it won't get either of them closer to Mornington Crescent.


Black follows up by extending his road to reclaim "longest road"- White sends a pawn to steal the flag but looses the pawn when it steps on the Wumpus.

EDIT: I think we may have just created the board game version of Calvinball.

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Klear
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Klear » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:26 pm UTC

Piogre wrote:
Mikeski wrote:The obvious follow-up moves would be for black to put houses on Park Place and Boardwalk, and for white to play Swords to Plowshares to exile one of black's pieces.

But that's playing small ball; it won't get either of them closer to Mornington Crescent.


Black follows up by extending his road to reclaim "longest road"- White sends a pawn to steal the flag but looses the pawn when it steps on the Wumpus.

EDIT: I think we may have just created the board game version of Calvinball.


I've been searching for this video for a couple of days now. I finally found it by going through the "web original" section of Calvinball page on TVtropes.

Kit.
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Kit. » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:39 pm UTC

Klear wrote:of Calvinball page on TVtropes.

Must. Resist.

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Klear
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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby Klear » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:52 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
Klear wrote:of Calvinball page on TVtropes.

Must. Resist.


I actually managed to stay clear of that page and only read the tiny "web original" section, but I still got sucked into "pinball scoring".

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Re: 1287: "Puzzle"

Postby pixeldigger » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:47 pm UTC

interesting to note that Hexagonal chess uses 3 bishops, so the mustard could just be that he combined THREE games.


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