0198: "Perspective"

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Ephphatha
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0198: "Perspective"

Postby Ephphatha » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:07 am UTC

I'm not lazy, I'm just getting in early for Christmas is all...

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aldimond
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Postby aldimond » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:23 am UTC

It's so true, though. Firefox is just a browser. But RMS is God and GNU is His Holy War! Praise Saint Ignucious!

emacs still sucks though
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Postby dfoxfranke » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:26 am UTC

So what was the Cirque de Soleil thing?

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Postby Durinthal » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:35 am UTC

As a fan of Cirque du Soleil I'm having a very difficult time visualizing such a thing.

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Postby Heirtopendragon » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:40 am UTC

I use IE

I had Firefox for a bit, but it didn't seem any different

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Postby Gelsamel » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:43 am UTC

Firefox is having my babies.

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Postby Verysillyman » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:46 am UTC

I'm currently shacked up with safari.

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rektide
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Postby rektide » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:50 am UTC

bah firefox. the only web browser where a complete lack of cache management is considered a feature. i have a fujitsu p1120, with a not totally incapable 800 mhz crusoe & 225 mb of ram. firefox runs like a total dog, completely totally unusable after you get two or three tabs open. every tab you open makes it geometrically slower. pages with a lot of form elements just crawl. opera manages to place no restrictions on my somewhat excessive browsing habits, irregardless of the computer i'm running on.

the real killer though is responsiveness. opera queues in my input. even when its loaded down running a couple of multi megabyte pages and heavy javascript. i can keep tossing keyboard commands at it and it will continue processing them, given in due time. firefox otoh requires i sit and wait for the browser to catch up with me, otherwise the input is lost. i'm not sure whats up with its total lack of asychronous behavior. i can find precious little besides the source to document what exactly firefox is, but my couple year old understanding is that firefox is largely self hosting out of javascript and xul. if this is true, the severely single threaded nature of javascript is likely to blame. as to why it cant even queue input, i've no idea.

[little bit of irc banter latter:] evidently the core of firefox is xpcom, which then uses its javascript css & xul bindings to render its visual interface.

its a frakking web browser, what excuse is there for performance ever being an issue?

i use firefox purely for web page development, since it has upteen bajillion unreplicated plugins. that is all. past that, i'm somewhat sad to report, i really think firefox is utter rubbish. ymmv.

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Postby rektide » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:01 am UTC

to avoid being totally negative, i thought i'd recommend one of the shining jewel applications i love and use, inkscape.

i almost never use "applications" so my list is really short, i mostly exist in the command line. also, one of my qualifications for being a jewel in open source is community involvement, which is something a lot of open source projects do only minimally (projects seem mostly to be executed by two or three hackers).

rektide

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Postby quaverknave » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:08 am UTC

ie and I had a falling out and while I kept all of her cds she decided she wouldn't open websites for me.

but I won't lie as to what the real reason I got firefox was though. david firth reccomended it. somewhere on that website of his.

in need for a free and a not ugly replacement I listened to him. even if it does mean that I have to look at the properties in order to read all of the scroll over text.

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Postby programmerbrad » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:38 am UTC

aldimond wrote:emacs still sucks though


Lake, etc...
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Postby Vyathx » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:35 am UTC

I think that in all due respect to the floating sarcasm here, Firefox was a long waited relief from the hegemony of the CSS intolerant IE. While IE is indeed functional, my main quarrel with it is the fact it does not display websites. I mean, sure, it did, back in 98' or so, but so many unnecessary bugs today prevent it from displaying websites properly. Forget about instability and poor security. I'm talking about PNG alpha support, adaquate CSS support, reasonable Javascript parsing... With the release of version 7(!) of this browser, this has me be believing that Microsoft strays more and more from the web and into their little fantasy world which they so innocently think *is* the web. And to think all they had to do is read some, not all, of the W3C recommendations.

With regards to Firefox - if we set all the minor "conveniences" asides (tabbed browsing, plugins, etc), we are left with a core that allows both site viewers and designers to be happy. Isn't that what's most important?

Then yes, it's a browser, just a browser. But after all, what would the web be without pages?
Last edited by Vyathx on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:19 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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aldimond
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Postby aldimond » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:07 am UTC

programmerbrad wrote:
aldimond wrote:emacs still sucks though


Lake, etc...


vi Foreveeeeeee *glug glug glug*

(actually someday I want to write an editor combining what I feel to be the coolest parts of vim and sam.)
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Postby beinsane » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:28 am UTC

Every time I hear someone bitch about IE not being standards-compliant, I want to start screaming about how any "standard" that the browser that 80% of the world uses won't handle properly is no standard at all, and if anything, IE is the standard and it's the W3C that isn't standards-compliant...

And then I realize how much my argument is undermined by the fact that I do most of my computing on OSes that either haven't had a new version of IE in years or never supported it in the first place.

Ah well. We can't all be John Dvorak (and thank $DEITY for that).
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Postby Benevolent Lion » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:52 am UTC

I prefer using Firefox because of security and a bit more the fact that I enjoy being anti-establishment with Microsoft(even though I have a windows OS). Besides, IE won't even open for me at all when I upgraded to the latest version.

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Postby ohki » Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:38 am UTC

Vyathx wrote:But after all, what would the web be without pages?


A SERIES OF TUBES!

Also, is it wrong to picture firefox like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Firefox-tan.jpg ?
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Postby william » Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:37 am UTC

Currently, on Windoze, Firefox refuses to even open. I suspect sabotage.
I'm using Opera right now.
On Linux I'm still using Firefox though.
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Postby Torn Apart By Dingos » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:15 pm UTC

Speaking of browsers, Opera 9.10 was released just 3 hours ago! :D

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Postby Joehaley » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:31 pm UTC

Personally, I hate all browsers.

MS IE: Non-standard compliant to the point of driving web designers insane. (and its own set of standards are not at all intuitive.) Also, a lack of security often means my IE isn't even functioning when i want to use it.

Firefox: Complys decently with the web standards, and is relativly secure. But its rather unstable and slow, and verry resource intensive. Its the one I use, but mostly out of habbit.

Opera: Probobly the best out of all 3 im mentioning, but oddly my least favorit. I just plain dont like it for some reson.

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Postby no-genius » Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:45 pm UTC

I got firefox 1.5 or summat on a cd that I got from ITS when I started uni. Now I can't go back.

You can never go home. is this hitler in his bunker? Is this where it all ends?


Now I have FF2, why would i want sucky IE? I don't even use my parent's comp, and I rarely use the uni comps if I have my laptop.


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Postby starvingartist » Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:59 pm UTC

I'm not all that computer savvy, and I have never used Firefox, but IE works just fine for me. Never understood the big deal with Firefox.

What about Mozilla? Or am I completely oblivious about internet browsers?

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Postby no-genius » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:19 pm UTC

starvingartist wrote:I'm not all that computer savvy, and I have never used Firefox, but IE works just fine for me. Never understood the big deal with Mozilla Firefox.

What about Mozilla? Or am I completely oblivious about internet browsers?


guess so... unless you're takin the pish
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The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Why? It does nothing to address dance music's core problem: the fact that it sucks.

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Postby MrBawn » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:44 pm UTC

On the subject of Firefox just being a browser, in the words of HJ Heinz, "To do a common thing uncommonly well brings success." When it comes down to it, Heinz ketchup is just ketchup, but it's damn good ketchup.

As for browsing in general, I don't know what rektide is talking about. At home, I have a Pentium 3, 750 MHz with I think a gig of RAM in Win98, and Firefox 1.5 runs just fine for me, even with 20 tabs open.

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Postby no-genius » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:49 pm UTC

MrBawn wrote:On the subject of Firefox just being a browser, in the words of HJ Heinz, "To do a common thing uncommonly well brings success." When it comes down to it, Heinz ketchup is just ketchup, but it's damn good ketchup.

As for browsing in general, I don't know what rektide is talking about. At home, I have a Pentium 3, 750 MHz with I think a gig of RAM in Win98, and Firefox 1.5 runs just fine for me, even with 20 tabs open.


well i have 41 tabs open right now on ff2
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The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Why? It does nothing to address dance music's core problem: the fact that it sucks.

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Postby MrBawn » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:50 pm UTC

starvingartist wrote:I'm not all that computer savvy, and I have never used Firefox, but IE works just fine for me. Never understood the big deal with Firefox.

What about Mozilla? Or am I completely oblivious about internet browsers?


The browser that was once known as "Mozilla" is now called SeaMonkey. I was a SeaMonkey fan since back when it was Mozilla 0.9. I switched to Firefox in 2005. I'm not sure what the difference is, other than download size (which is attributed to the fact that SeaMonkey is an application suite, whereas Firefox is a standalone browser.)

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Postby TheTankengine » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:15 pm UTC

um, IceWeasel anyone?

I suspect only aldimond and programmerbrad will know what it is. :cry:
be centered
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Postby fade.out.again » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:45 pm UTC

For those mac users in the audience that may not know about this.. there are processor optimized version of Firefox 2.0 available from -

http://www.beatnikpad.com/archives/2006/10/26/firefox-20

As usual.. ymmv, but it has proven to be a bit snappier and less crash prone than the stock FF2.0 build I was running before..

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Postby fjafjan » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:39 pm UTC

fade.out.again wrote:For those mac users in the audience that may not know about this.. there are processor optimized version of Firefox 2.0 available from -

http://www.beatnikpad.com/archives/2006/10/26/firefox-20

As usual.. ymmv, but it has proven to be a bit snappier and less crash prone than the stock FF2.0 build I was running before..


I thought Macs had the same processor as the PC these days, turns out PCs were better all along
Who would've thought?
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Postby meso » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:11 pm UTC

Konqueror seems to love my computer far more than Firefox (on account of it not being a fatty), and I feel alright in thinking it's one of the coolest things around because it doesn't just browse the web, it does pretty much everything. I browse my folders in it, I view my files in it, I pull up a terminal in it.

Firefox on Windows, though... Thinking about checking out this Opera thing, though. I hear it's actually better?

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Postby rektide » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:27 pm UTC

MrBawn ok i'm gonna bust out the rude stick here for a second.

of course you have no fucking idea what i'm talking about,
your running firefox with 4.5 times the ram jerk.
of course you can open plenty of tabs.
your 750 mhz pentium iii is also significantly faster than my 800mhz crusoe.

for perspective, my 225 mb system runs opera perfectly responsive with over two hundred tabs open. which i do, 24/7. and it consumes exactly as much memory as i tell it to. and, if it has to page stuff in, it does it extremely fast. thats not uncommon to me, thats expected cache management. its like tabs, opera had it years years years ahead and after a couple years the bell curve caught up and realized it was essential.

Tank, watch that ego. plenty of people know what IceWeasel is. no need to be talking down.

one true browser war links2 has graphical support via framebuffer now! whoo links! i actually use elinks quite a lot, its tabs are well done.

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Postby william » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:40 pm UTC

TheTankengine wrote:um, IceWeasel anyone?

I suspect only aldimond and programmerbrad will know what it is. :cry:

Is it really called that? Gentoo just calls it "Bon Echo". (although the package name is still mozilla-firefox)
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Postby Torn Apart By Dingos » Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:20 pm UTC

meso wrote:Firefox on Windows, though... Thinking about checking out this Opera thing, though. I hear it's actually better?

Yes! Faster, smaller, less security holes, passes the Acid2 test. But just try it out and you'll see for yourself if you like it.

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Postby rektide » Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:55 pm UTC

anything that passes the acid test is good bye me.

hmm electric kool aid.

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Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:24 pm UTC

rektide wrote: firefox runs like a total dog, completely totally unusable after you get two or three tabs open. every tab you open makes it geometrically slower.


Haven't read the thread, so don't know if anyones replied to this, but what the hell are you on about? I often have 10-20 tabs open, and every now and then up to 80 or so, and it runs fine.

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Postby fjafjan » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:36 pm UTC

my firefox keeps lagging up, what is wrong? :(
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

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Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:41 pm UTC

Running 2.0? Got at least 512 ram?

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Postby fjafjan » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:43 pm UTC

yes, and yes. It's not that it's LAGGING, it freezes up. Seemingly sporadically, atleast I have find no real pattern, when i click links usually, but no specific links.
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

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Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:50 pm UTC

Ah yeah, mine freezes up every now and then. >.>

I think it happens to everyone with FF... It's like its single flaw, in order for it to fit into reality without tearing it up with awesome and stuff.

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Postby fjafjan » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:52 pm UTC

If you by every now and then mean atleast three times a day, then yes :P

I think it's not so much a flaw as a buttplug :P
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

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Postby OmnipotentEntity » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:29 am UTC

TheTankengine wrote:um, IceWeasel anyone?

I suspect only aldimond and programmerbrad will know what it is. :cry:


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Also us Beryl users too.
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