1325: "Rejection"

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:38 am UTC

Goranson wrote:The feminist boogeyman of a "nice guy" whose entire friendship with a girl is an elaborate trap that ends with him begging her for sex is something I've never seen.

That part usually happens in private, away from the cameras.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby OmniLiquid » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:58 am UTC

Goranson wrote:
OmniLiquid wrote:1. Women say they want nice men.
2. I am a nice man (or perceive myself to be one).
3. A woman rejected me (did not want me)
therefore 4. Women don't really want nice men and are lying.

Except that you're letting someone who clearly has nothing but contempt for "nice guys" speak for them and are taking him as their mouthpiece, and then you're pretending that a logical argument precisely describes what is often just emotionally colored frustration over a lack of dating success. In my experience it's not that "nice guys" expect sex anymore than anyone else, it's just that they genuinely don't know how to express romantic interest where other people do, and mistake their own incompetence and shyness with niceness. They're putting forward what they consider to be adequate signals of sexual interest that nobody else is picking up on.

The feminist boogeyman of a "nice guy" whose entire friendship with a girl is an elaborate trap that ends with him begging her for sex is something I've never seen.


Actually, I'm building that strawman argument (if it is indeed one) myself, based on how I was at one point tempted to think. Having nothing but contempt for "nice guys" is not quite how I see myself.

Anyway, yes the argument is most often drawn from emotions rather than logic, but once it is accepted by an individual or group, it leads to arsehole thoughts and behaviors. Thus it is necessary to counter the argument, and I don't see a problem with using logic to counter an emotional argument (though it is probably ineffective until after the person has calmed down somewhat), or with pointing out that a certain argument will lead one to being an arsehole.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby TheKhan » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:26 am UTC

Sorry people, but the amount of condescending bigotry in this thread is staggering.

If you cared to look around on the net, you might realize that dating sites are growing like weed all over the place and people selling books along the lines of "How to date" are raking in high profits. I wonder why that is? Here's a hint: There is quite a subset of people for whom finding a partner is (or has become) exceedingly hard.

So let's have a look at our "Nice Guy", who is apparently a sexist, emotionally insecure despicable creature whom you should walk away from and laugh at. Bugger, what a loser, if only he would just not react bitterly to the fact that he probably won't procreate and die alone.

News flash, you are, for a substantial part, laughing at the expense of emotionally/socially/somehow impared people who miss out on a part of life you take for granted. It's a subtle thing, and most don't or (or won't) see it that way, but thats what it comes down to. At the end of the day, the "Nice Guy" is probably missing some small, but integral part of some social algorithm and doesn't know how tho work around it.

"But but but, he expects sex from me just because he's nice. What an asshole" No, thats not what is going on. He expects (or more like hopes for) interest from some woman, at some point in his life, for all the effort he is putting in (see the books and the dating sites and whatnot). Especially because all the others make it look so damn easy! They just are, you know, being themselves, and have people being interested in the all the time. And than he becomes frustrated and starts to at least partially believe in things like "girls only want you to be rich" and such drivel.

As for me, go get your armchair psychology and preconcieved notions and come at me. I have said things like that when I was 20, when I was successful and reasonably good looking and people would see me as a quite fun and interesting guy, but no girl would ever be interested, and none of my friends would be able to point out what is wrong. I stopped saying things like that when I became 25 or so. By the age of 30 I was substantially more successful and still reasonably good looking, and apparently still quite a fun and interesting guy, and I had just stopped caring. I had tried reading the books, I have tried meeting on the net, I have tried some psychological stuff. I had to accept that sexually, I am apparently some kind of a blank slate for women: not interesting at all after they meet me in person once. No, I am not hideous, and I don't smell and I can have interesting conversations. I have asked a lot of people, friends of both genders, acquaitances, even a professional, for hints as to what might be going wrong, just in case my perception is somehow terribly warped: nobody had a clue.

At this point I am pretty convinced that at least part of it is some kind of biological relic, some behind-the-scenes thing not working properly. Maybe I am not emitting the right pheromones or something. I have had a lot of frustrating moments because of that, but at some point I have just decided, as has been sarcastically suggested in this thread before, to move on. Maybe I will meet a woman someday whose "pheromone sense" is broken or something and I will get a proper chance.

So, next time you just go all judgemental about these "Nice Guys", these "losers" who are "emotionally underdeveloped", maybe take a minute of your time and try to see things from that guys perspective. Maybe making fun of somebody who is in the process of hurting himself by trying and failing at a very important part of social life doesn't reflect as well on you as you would like to think.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby sonar1313 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:49 am UTC

Dontget wrote:
Goranson wrote:I really fail to see how women are harmed by the existence of romantically inept losers who say mean things about them, and why they feel like they need to be called out at all. Do you feel the need to call out somebody homeless who says mean things about people with jobs too?

Poor analogies always get me going more than the argument itself. Being someone's friend instead of dating them is not analogous to being homeless instead of being employed.

And really, that's exactly where the problem is. These "romantically inept losers" are eternally criticizing women for what is the equivalent of free vanilla iced cream instead of free chocolate iced cream. And of course it isn't a big deal. Most things aren't a big deal. But they're ungrateful to the point of frustration, so if someone wants to make a comic about it I think we could all use the stress relief.

Poor analogies get you going and then you break out that?

In what way is "not being able to find a romantic partner" so functionally equivalent to "finding a romantic partner" that vanilla and chocolate ice cream make sense as an analogy?

If we're going to use an analogy like that, it'd be more like everyone else at the table getting ice cream for dessert and you getting a saltine cracker. But, you know, shut up and don't express frustration over your saltine cracker.

Such an easy comic for Randall to make and others to agree with - as long as you're already set for life in the romance department.

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YMMV, I guess.

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:12 pm UTC

I didn't see the comic as knocking all guys that have difficulty in the romance department.

I saw it as knocking the specific guys who respond to rejection with a "sour grapes" response - those who start making silly remarks about "women as a species."

The comic (or specifically, the second Cueball) says, "Making such remarks is silly."

The comic does say it in a snarky, ham-handed way... but then again, it is a one-panel webcomic.

One doesn't have to be romantically successful to see the point Randall is trying to make.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby speising » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:17 pm UTC

OmniLiquid wrote:1. Women say they want nice men.
2. I am a nice man (or perceive myself to be one).
3. A woman rejected me (did not want me)
therefore 4. Women don't really want nice men and are lying.


point 3 here is incorrect. it should really read
3. A woman rejected me (did not want me) and instead chose an asshole.
because that's the part leading the speaker to 4.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Kit. » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:37 pm UTC

TheKhan wrote:Sorry people, but the amount of condescending bigotry in this thread is staggering.

If you cared to look around on the net, you might realize that dating sites are growing like weed all over the place and people selling books along the lines of "How to date" are raking in high profits. I wonder why that is? Here's a hint: There is quite a subset of people for whom finding a partner is (or has become) exceedingly hard.

So let's have a look at our "Nice Guy", who is apparently a sexist, emotionally insecure despicable creature whom you should walk away from and laugh at. Bugger, what a loser, if only he would just not react bitterly to the fact that he probably won't procreate and die alone.

Which is natural selection at work.

The good part of it is that if he weren't a sexist instant gratification hypocrite, he might have better chances to procreate.
Last edited by Kit. on Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:40 pm UTC

Goranson wrote:The feminist boogeyman of a "nice guy" whose entire friendship with a girl is an elaborate trap that ends with him begging her for sex is something I've never seen.

It's funny because I've encountered at least 20 of them. They are really fucking annoying. Christ almighty, I've only even dated 4 men. And I've been casual friends with over 100. In the case of those guys though, I generally just stop being friends with them, because fuck it, I have better things to do with my life.

It's hardly a boogeyman. I doubt there's a single woman who's afraid of it. Fuck, it's not even a successful elaborate trap, because the number of women who've been trapped by it is approaching 0%. It's just fucking irritating to have such a large number of guys in your life that you are friends with, suddenly snap and get angry at you one day because they think you're holding out on sex from them.

If anything, it's less a boogeyman and more "Stop fucking doing this you conceited clod, that way you can stop wasting your time and the time of women you're interacting with."

Also if you think it doesn't exist, go back and read pages 2 and 3 of this thread. You might find yourself having an eye opening experience. Or not. *shrug*

Or hell, even these next two quotes:

TheKhan wrote:Sorry people, but the amount of condescending bigotry in this thread is staggering.

If you cared to look around on the net, you might realize that dating sites are growing like weed all over the place and people selling books along the lines of "How to date" are raking in high profits. I wonder why that is? Here's a hint: There is quite a subset of people for whom finding a partner is (or has become) exceedingly hard.

So let's have a look at our "Nice Guy", who is apparently a sexist, emotionally insecure despicable creature whom you should walk away from and laugh at. Bugger, what a loser, if only he would just not react bitterly to the fact that he probably won't procreate and die alone.

Procreation isn't the purpose of being friends with people. Good fucking job, you just straight up said the only reason you want to interact with people is so you can stick your dick in them. You didn't even get past your third paragraph without starting that.

Nice Guys are their own worst enemy because they create a circular logic of " People say I need to stop being a jerk, but they are bitches because they aren't letting me procreate in their body, so obviously they are wrong and I'm the victim for wanting to procreate."

Nobody's telling you that you're wrong for wanting to be with someone, what they're telling you is that you're wrong with wanting to be with someone so you can stick your dick in them. If that's your primary motive for getting a girl, you're fucking failing at understanding the single most important reason for being with a girl. Companionship, and not of the fucking sexual kind.

It'd be cute if, for once, someone would make an argument defending "Nice Guys" that doesn't include "Why wouldn't they be upset that they can't stick a dick in every person they meet?" Because I'm sure someone could do it. I just haven't seen it yet.

sonar1313 wrote:
Dontget wrote:And really, that's exactly where the problem is. These "romantically inept losers" are eternally criticizing women for what is the equivalent of free vanilla iced cream instead of free chocolate iced cream. And of course it isn't a big deal. Most things aren't a big deal. But they're ungrateful to the point of frustration, so if someone wants to make a comic about it I think we could all use the stress relief.
In what way is "not being able to find a romantic partner" so functionally equivalent to "finding a romantic partner" that vanilla and chocolate ice cream make sense as an analogy?
Try "having a friend" vs "having a romantic partner. And then the analogy fucking works. Friends and romantic partners are for most practical purposes, the same thing. Most of the time they are short-lived, but sometimes you find someone you spend the rest of your life with.

Don't play dumb about what he meant.
Last edited by Karilyn on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:02 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Franky » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:53 pm UTC

I've never heard a woman say that she wants a nice guy. Admittedly, that would be hard with my dick in her mouth.

In all seriousness, I've heard smart, funny and handsome. I've heard specific demands for genitalia dimensions, eye color and hairdo. I've heard mutual interest and passion. I guess nice could be somewhere on the list for some people, but it doesn't exactly seem like a quality that weighs heavily into sexual attractiveness.

"I get totally turned on by people who are affable, friendly and nice." - No one, ever.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Kit. » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:06 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:what they're telling you is that you're wrong with wanting to be with someone so you can stick your dick in them.

There's actually nothing wrong with it.

It's just that if you want it, blaming others for your ineffectiveness makes you even less effective.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:22 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
Karilyn wrote:what they're telling you is that you're wrong with wanting to be with someone so you can stick your dick in them.
There's actually nothing wrong with it. It's just that if you want it, blaming others for your ineffectiveness makes you even less effective.

Thanks for the correction. It's hard to make sure I cover everything in a single post.

Franky wrote:I've never heard a woman say that she wants a nice guy. Admittedly, that would be hard with my dick in her mouth.

In all seriousness, I've heard smart, funny and handsome. I've heard specific demands for genitalia dimensions, eye color and hairdo. I've heard mutual interest and passion. I guess nice could be somewhere on the list for some people, but it doesn't exactly seem like a quality that weighs heavily into sexual attractiveness.

"I get totally turned on by people who are affable, friendly and nice." - No one, ever.

Quoted for emphasis. I'm sure some woman has said it at some point or another, but it's hardly a common statement.

The traits I look for in someone are:

1. Smart
2. Reserved
3. Integrity
4. Level-headed
5. Enjoy each others sense of humor
6. We can be assholes to each other off without staying angry.
7. Also a magical 7th trait, that I'm sure someone can provide me the word for, but I don't have the actual word for it. It's that thing, where you don't have ulterior motives. Where you don't have to censor yourself because it's obvious that the meaning behind what you said had no ill intent. It's that magical 7th trait, which let's Franky say "that would be hard with my dick in her mouth" without coming off as a sexist prick, because it's obvious he doesn't hold an emotion like that in his heart, he's making a joke. Sexism, Racism, Bigotry of any variety, aren't about the things you say or do, but the things you feel inside. Your mindset. So yeah, that 7th trait, probably the most important trait, is that the person doesn't pay lip service to being political correct because they are busy paying lip service to my pussy, because that's shallow and skin deep and can be a coat of paint over a festering rotting core on the inside. If, deep down inside, you truly aren't racist or sexist or whatever bigotry, thenbeing Basically Decent isn't necessary, because your heart shines from the inside. Because look at yourself, in your heart of hearts, you know what your real intention is.

That probably made no fucking sense and I started to ramble, sorry for that. Either way, "nice" doesn't show up anywhere on that list. Nice is in fact, the opposite of that 7th trait. "Nice" is a shallow coat of paint under which a festering rot can be on the inside. For crying out loud, most serial killers are described as "affable, friendly and nice." That should tell you something about how fucking useless of a descriptor "nice" really is.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:30 pm UTC

Poor gerbil.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Kit. » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:44 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:7. Also a magical 7th trait, that I'm sure someone can provide me the word for, but I don't have the actual word for it. It's that thing, where you don't have ulterior motives. Where you don't have to censor yourself because it's obvious that the meaning behind what you said had no ill intent.

Sincerity?

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby sonar1313 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:53 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:
Dontget wrote:And really, that's exactly where the problem is. These "romantically inept losers" are eternally criticizing women for what is the equivalent of free vanilla iced cream instead of free chocolate iced cream. And of course it isn't a big deal. Most things aren't a big deal. But they're ungrateful to the point of frustration, so if someone wants to make a comic about it I think we could all use the stress relief.
In what way is "not being able to find a romantic partner" so functionally equivalent to "finding a romantic partner" that vanilla and chocolate ice cream make sense as an analogy?
Try "having a friend" vs "having a romantic partner. And then the analogy fucking works. Friends and romantic partners are for most practical purposes, the same thing. Most of the time they are short-lived, but sometimes you find someone you spend the rest of your life with.

Don't play dumb about what he meant.

You know what? Seriously? Fuck you for thinking romantic partners are just friends you fuck. Do you really think men think that way? Do you think that way? They are abso-fucking-lutely not "for most practical purposes the same thing." That's such a load of bullshit I don't even know where to begin. That's exactly the attitude that frustrates guys in the first place. "I'm not gonna have sex with him, but I'll talk and stuff, that should make him happy, right? And if it doesn't, he's just a sex-crazed jerk."

I'm not playing dumb about what he meant. I know exactly what he meant. And I don't agree with it one tiny bit.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:36 pm UTC

Ok I'm just going to break it down here.

If you act FRIENDLY towards a female and they treat you as a FRIEND that is how that works.

If you try to be ROMANTIC towards a female and they decide they don't want to date you, that's their prerogative, that's free will, that's their decision and if you try to argue against it you are saying that their decision is false without putting the thought into thinking maybe this other person has their own reasons for saying that and I really have no clue what their life story is, even if I am literally holding their autobiography.

If you decide that, by not being romantic with you, they are somehow flawed, you're a sexist idiot- no fuckit, let's take the sex thing out of it. You're a selfish idiot.

If you decide that, by not being romantic with you, YOU are somehow flawed, you're just a regular idiot because you're deciding that it must be one person is wrong instead of looking at the big picture i.e not every sexually-appropriate pair of people are going to be viable relationships that isn't how love works.

Now there ARE women who jerk around guys dragging them through the street by their heartstrings just for kicks, the ones who know that you want a relationship, and deliberately tease you with the possibility instead of trying to be cordial about it. They're still human beings and human beings are still capable of being huge assholes. In that situation though, what the fuck are you missing out on by not being in a relationship with that? Sounds more like the 'friendzone' was dodging a fucking bullet.

I mean reverse the roles here how would you feel if a childhood friend, a sister to you, declared her romantic intentions and you simply didn't reciprocate. Would you want to force yourself into a relationship you're not interested in, and that frankly creeps you out, or would you at least TRY to remain friends? I mean what the fuck else do people expect to happen here.
Last edited by Invertin on Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby TheKhan » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:44 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:
Or hell, even these next two quotes:

TheKhan wrote:Sorry people, but the amount of condescending bigotry in this thread is staggering.

If you cared to look around on the net, you might realize that dating sites are growing like weed all over the place and people selling books along the lines of "How to date" are raking in high profits. I wonder why that is? Here's a hint: There is quite a subset of people for whom finding a partner is (or has become) exceedingly hard.

So let's have a look at our "Nice Guy", who is apparently a sexist, emotionally insecure despicable creature whom you should walk away from and laugh at. Bugger, what a loser, if only he would just not react bitterly to the fact that he probably won't procreate and die alone.

Procreation isn't the purpose of being friends with people. Good fucking job, you just straight up said the only reason you want to interact with people is so you can stick your dick in them. You didn't even get past your third paragraph without starting that.

Nice Guys are their own worst enemy because they create a circular logic of " People say I need to stop being a jerk, but they are bitches because they aren't letting me procreate in their body, so obviously they are wrong and I'm the victim for wanting to procreate."

Nobody's telling you that you're wrong for wanting to be with someone, what they're telling you is that you're wrong with wanting to be with someone so you can stick your dick in them. If that's your primary motive for getting a girl, you're fucking failing at understanding the single most important reason for being with a girl. Companionship, and not of the fucking sexual kind.

It'd be cute if, for once, someone would make an argument defending "Nice Guys" that doesn't include "Why wouldn't they be upset that they can't stick a dick in every person they meet?" Because I'm sure someone could do it. I just haven't seen it yet.

sonar1313 wrote:
Dontget wrote:And really, that's exactly where the problem is. These "romantically inept losers" are eternally criticizing women for what is the equivalent of free vanilla iced cream instead of free chocolate iced cream. And of course it isn't a big deal. Most things aren't a big deal. But they're ungrateful to the point of frustration, so if someone wants to make a comic about it I think we could all use the stress relief.
In what way is "not being able to find a romantic partner" so functionally equivalent to "finding a romantic partner" that vanilla and chocolate ice cream make sense as an analogy?
Try "having a friend" vs "having a romantic partner. And then the analogy fucking works. Friends and romantic partners are for most practical purposes, the same thing. Most of the time they are short-lived, but sometimes you find someone you spend the rest of your life with.

Don't play dumb about what he meant.


Not sure if you are serious, or just trying to rile people up for the sake of it, but let's say I bite.

Could you elaborate how "Oh, I have not managed to get any semblance of a romantic interest out of anyone in my entire life, I am slowly getting older now and just lack experience with relationships at this point, making it less and less likely to happen. I have arranged myself with this for the most part, but the perspective of probably not having a chance at something like a nice relationship or family at some point in the future is still kind of grating." translates to "I just want to stick my dick in anyone I meet." for you. Because, you know, some of us think ahead and see the bigger picture of how this is going to end up in 20 years if it continues. Thanks for the insults by the way.

"Friends and romantic partners are for most practical purposes, the same thing. Most of the time they are short-lived, but sometimes you find someone you spend the rest of your life with."

I disagree. Cue insults for "failing" and "wanting to stick things in" and whatnot, but as someone who has a lot of the former (of either gender) and none of the latter, I imagine my perspective might be different from yours. Coincidentially, my friendships tend to not be short-lived...

To repeat, relationships are hard for some people, with or without their personal fault at it, and repeated failure WILL make people frustrated and warp their perception of others. One could have a good laugh at these people's expense, cherry pick some arguments, engage in some sweeping generalizations and swear a little for emphasis. Or one could try to not just disregard the problems of others just because you are lucky enough to not have them.

Take your own advice and don't play dumb about what people mean. If these things weren't a problem for a substantial amount of people we wouldn't have this flood of dating sites, "How to get a girl to like me"-books, and we wouldn't even have this kind of discussion here, where people felt hurt by a simple comic strip.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:47 pm UTC

The 'how to get a girl' sites aren't a result of people being desperate. They're a result of even worse assholes making money off people who are desperate by sharing their own bullshit.

There are entirely successful adult individuals without the anxiety problems that you're talking about the truly believe in 'pick-up artists' or are one and are purely grown-ass adults who don't think that women are capable of basic human intelligence.

There are people who are just desperate but the overwhelming majority of people who believe in that line of thinking are just assholes.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:53 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:Sincerity?

Thank you Mr Reverse-Lookup Dictionary! You are so much more useful than a thesaurus, I don't know what I'd do without you. Sometimes it's just so hard to find the one word which encapsulates the meaning you are trying to reach for <3

Kit. wrote:You know what? Seriously? Fuck you for thinking romantic partners are just friends you fuck. Do you really think men think that way? Do you think that way? They are abso-fucking-lutely not "for most practical purposes the same thing." That's such a load of bullshit I don't even know where to begin. That's exactly the attitude that frustrates guys in the first place. "I'm not gonna have sex with him, but I'll talk and stuff, that should make him happy, right? And if it doesn't, he's just a sex-crazed jerk."

"Fuck me for thinking romantic partners are just friends you fuck."
"Do you really think men think that way?"

... You do realize I'm female right? You accused me of thinking that, then you proceed to say I think men think that way. Well which is it? Kinda a contradictory statement.

And no. For me, romantic partners aren't just friends you fuck. And no I don't think men think that way (though some people, both men and women think that way, and that's okay, even though I don't share that opinion because everyone's personal needs are different). Fucking is like, I don't know, maybe 5% of a relationship. It's fun, but so is cuddling on the couch watching movies together, or sharing a meal together.

Intimacy.
Intimacy is the word you are looking for.
Not fuck.

Romantic partners are just friends you are intimate with. And fucking is like, only a small sliver of intimacy. But intimacy is only a small sliver of what a romantic partner is. A good life-long friend and a lifelong romantic partner have about 80-90% overlap.

And if you don't understand the difference between intimacy and fucking, I'm at a loss to begin to figure out what's wrong with you.

Invertin wrote:If you decide that, by not being romantic with you, they are somehow flawed, you're a sexist idiot- no fuckit, let's take the sex thing out of it. You're a selfish idiot.

If you decide that, by not being romantic with you, YOU are somehow flawed, you're just a regular idiot because you're deciding that it must be one person is wrong instead of looking at the big picture i.e not every sexually-appropriate pair of people are going to be viable relationships that isn't how love works.

Amen!

Invertin wrote:Now there ARE women who jerk around guys dragging them through the street by their heartstrings just for kicks, the ones who know that you want a relationship, and deliberately tease you with the possibility instead of trying to be cordial about it. They're still human beings and human beings are still capable of being huge assholes. In that situation though, what the fuck are you missing out on by not being in a relationship with that? Sounds more like the 'friendzone' was dodging a fucking bullet.

Double Amen! This fucker knows where it's at yo, listen to him. He's offering you some of the best goddamn relationship advice you'll ever get in your life.
Last edited by Karilyn on Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:58 pm UTC, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby mythago » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:54 pm UTC

TheKhan wrote:Sorry people, but the amount of condescending bigotry in this thread is staggering.


Because criticizing bigotry....is bigotry?

Yes, there are men and women who have trouble finding Mr./Ms. Right. There are also men and women who react to a lack of success in this endeavor by loudly announcing that the real problem is every member of the desired gender is an asshole. The comic quite plainly criticizes the latter, not the former.

TheKhan wrote:So let's have a look at our "Nice Guy", who is apparently a sexist, emotionally insecure despicable creature whom you should walk away from and laugh at. Bugger, what a loser, if only he would just not react bitterly to the fact that he probably won't procreate and die alone.


That's rather a harsh thing to say about our Nice Guy, and somewhat melodramatic. Do you really believe that everyone who is rejected by a desired person, even someone who has a series of rejections, is utterly doomed to never procreate and die alone? Where do you get this power to predict Nice Guy's future?

TheKhan wrote:News flash, you are, for a substantial part, laughing at the expense of emotionally/socially/somehow impared people who miss out on a part of life you take for granted. It's a subtle thing, and most don't or (or won't) see it that way, but thats what it comes down to. At the end of the day, the "Nice Guy" is probably missing some small, but integral part of some social algorithm and doesn't know how tho work around it.


News flash: lots of people have romantic failures and frustrating lives and an inability to meet Ms./Mr. Right easily without turning into Nice Guy. Just because it looks easy to you when other people have had romantic success, you know absolutely nothing about whether it really is easy, or what kinds of relationships they've had before, or how many "I only see you as a friend"s they heard in their lifetime, or how many years of loneliness they went through.

And ultimately, making excuses for Nice Guy does not help Nice Guy. His attitude is not one that brings all the girls to the yard. It does not in any way help him improve his love life. It hinders him, because after all, if women are crazy liars, then there's nothing about him that he can, or could, change to make things better.

I am, without any sarcasm whatsoever, genuinely sympathetic that you're having this rough time in your life. I don't think it could be that you're not emitting some mysterious pheromone. It may be that something else is going on in your life that has nothing to do with your "desirability" - as an example, I know any number of guys who have a lot of trouble meeting women or getting relationships started because they work very long hours with unpredictable schedules. If your friends don't have useful advice, a competent, nonjudgmental therapist might help you cut through this puzzle. But, as you note, that period of your life where you reacted to this with 'bitches be crazy' didn't help, either, and probably hurt you.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby mythago » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

Goranson wrote:The feminist boogeyman of a "nice guy" whose entire friendship with a girl is an elaborate trap that ends with him begging her for sex is something I've never seen.


And since you've never seen it, it doesn't exist, and women who claim they have been on the receiving end of this are crazy liars. Very meta of you!
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:04 pm UTC

I will just share a 'friendzone' moment myself. Although I didn't call it that at the time, I wasn't quite that stupid. I've since realized that the girl who online friends that didn't know the situation said might be my soulmate... was just some girl. I didn't really know her. I knew she was smart and cute and a nerd and I didn't actually know what kind of nerd she was. I didn't know if she played videogames or watched star trek I knew she wore glasses and liked science and history but that doesn't narrow it down. She turned me down insanely politely and I was so upset that I skipped the rest of school.

Gotta be like. Four years later? Something? Don't even remember her last name. Yeah, nope.

I'm not saying all attempts at a relationship are that misguided but it's just my personal story.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:07 pm UTC

TheKhan wrote:"Friends and romantic partners are for most practical purposes, the same thing. Most of the time they are short-lived, but sometimes you find someone you spend the rest of your life with."

I disagree. Cue insults for "failing" and "wanting to stick things in" and whatnot, but as someone who has a lot of the former (of either gender) and none of the latter, I imagine my perspective might be different from yours. Coincidentially, my friendships tend to not be short-lived...

Have you considered that me, as someone who has had both, might have a better perspective to understand more about what a romantic partner is like? Just saying. The person who has experience in both is more likely to know to compare the two. You might just have a perspective that's warped by having never experienced a romantic partner, that's causing you to build it up to something it's not, and that might actually be part of what's tripping you up.

And this is better advice than you'll find on any of those "how to date girls" books you keep referencing. Because saying "You need to change your own attitude" doesn't sell books, but saying there's a magic trick to getting women to like you does. One is honest, the other isn't. Booksellers aren't in it to actually help you, they are in it to make something that sounds appealing and marketable. Whereas this random ass bitch on the Internet talking to you right now, has no interest in getting $20s out of you to buy a book, so I have no reason to be lying or exploitative to you. There's a lot of great websites on how to not do the shit you're currently doing. I hear constant good things about Dr Nerdlove. But who knows? I'm sure those books are working out great for you. Tell me about all the relationships they've gotten you.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby somethingsomething42 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:17 pm UTC

Ahhh, the inherent irony in belittling the judement and self-awareness of somebody to let them know that belittling somebody else's judgement and self-awareness is wrong.

Forgive me, for I must rant. Though this account is barely seconds old, here we go....

This was a really shitty comic to wake up to yesterday morning, why? Because I'm the guy being dismissed in the comic. I was taught my entire life to be nice to women, to never be manly, and that that's what women want. So I've spent a very long time doing exactly what I was taught to do just to get passed over for assholes (or at least what I was taught was asshole behavior, some of it was but some of it was normal, healthy male behavior.) That's a hard thing to deal with and it's made even harder by the fact that if I ever tried to talk about it feminists would slam for the usual reasons and then maybe a well meaning white-knight would come in and help them. So like most modern males I never reached out.

How did I get that way? How did I become the nice guy watching the girl he loved ride off into the sunset with an emotionally abusive asshole? I got that way by being raised by a feminist. Not a "men and women are equal" feminist but an "everything male is bad" feminist. A man-hating feminist. I was taught from a young age that dominance, sex drive, machoness, manhood, etc. were all very bad things and that they made men monsters. So with my childhood lessons in hand I became an adult, and being a good person I tried not to do 'very bad things'.

Unfortunately I was taught wrong.

So I ended up getting "friendzoned" a lot during my teens and 20's. A lot of the times were completely reasonable, just two people who weren't compatible learning how to communicate about inherently murky topics. That's life, we learn and we move on, and there really is no reason to be mad in those situations. But in retrospect there were other times where my "niceness" was taken advantage of and I ended up in some really unhealthy long-term situations. Those were very bad situations to be in and it took me a long time to learn how to avoid them precisely because that's how I was taught to be.

So please remember that when some guy is complaining that he got friendzoned you don't have enough information to tell him that the girl did nothing wrong, or that he did do something wrong. Leaping to conclusions when somebody comes to you and tells you they're a victim is generally a bad move. Because there's a very cynical and manipulative type of friendzoning and pretending like it doesn't exist only helps the manipulators. Do some guys fly the friendzone flag erroneously? Definitely. But when the guy who actually has been in bad situations sees nothing but attacks on anybody making similar claims, he's going to keep his mouth shut. And that's the final irony - those most likely to get friendzoned are the least likely to talk about it because they'll blame themselves.

And yes I had a part to play in all of my friendzoned adventures, most victims made some decisions along the way that contribute to their victimhood. I made decisions and held attitudes that left me vulnerable to emotional manipulation. And that's why this comic is hard for me to see, because it's just another reminder that it was my fault that I lost years of my life to emotional manipulators.

After all, shaming the friendzoners is classic victim-blaming - only this time it's justified by stripping them of the victim status they're claiming in the first place.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby sonar1313 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:29 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:
Kit. wrote:Sincerity?

Thank you Mr Reverse-Lookup Dictionary! You are so much more useful than a thesaurus, I don't know what I'd do without you. Sometimes it's just so hard to find the one word which encapsulates the meaning you are trying to reach for <3

Kit. wrote:You know what? Seriously? Fuck you for thinking romantic partners are just friends you fuck. Do you really think men think that way? Do you think that way? They are abso-fucking-lutely not "for most practical purposes the same thing." That's such a load of bullshit I don't even know where to begin. That's exactly the attitude that frustrates guys in the first place. "I'm not gonna have sex with him, but I'll talk and stuff, that should make him happy, right? And if it doesn't, he's just a sex-crazed jerk."

"Fuck me for thinking romantic partners are just friends you fuck."
"Do you really think men think that way?"

... You do realize I'm female right? You accused me of thinking that, then you proceed to say I think men think that way. Well which is it? Kinda a contradictory statement.

And no. For me, romantic partners aren't just friends you fuck. And no I don't think men think that way (though some people, both men and women think that way, and that's okay, even though I don't share that opinion because everyone's personal needs are different). Fucking is like, I don't know, maybe 5% of a relationship. It's fun, but so is cuddling on the couch watching movies together, or sharing a meal together.

Intimacy.
Intimacy is the word you are looking for.
Not fuck.

Romantic partners are just friends you are intimate with. And fucking is like, only a small sliver of intimacy. But intimacy is only a small sliver of what a romantic partner is. A good life-long friend and a lifelong romantic partner have about 80-90% overlap.

And if you don't understand the difference between intimacy and fucking, I'm at a loss to begin to figure out what's wrong with you.

You're the one using phrases like "stick your dick in them." You spent a large number of words telling a guy who pretty clearly wants intimacy, not friendship, that the only thing he wanted was to stick his dick in them. That sounds like "fuck" to me, not intimacy. That sounds like it's you that ought to figure out the difference.

Yes, I did realize you're female, although, come to think of it, I suppose it was probably sexist to assume someone whose screenname is decidedly female and has a pink avatar is in fact female. That's why I asked if you think men think that way, instead of saying you think men think that way. Subtle difference.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Franky » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:30 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
Karilyn wrote:7. Also a magical 7th trait, that I'm sure someone can provide me the word for, but I don't have the actual word for it. It's that thing, where you don't have ulterior motives. Where you don't have to censor yourself because it's obvious that the meaning behind what you said had no ill intent.

Sincerity?


I call it 'Frankness', but that's literally just me.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:38 pm UTC

somethingsomething42 wrote:Ahhh, the inherent irony in belittling the judement and self-awareness of somebody to let them know that belittling somebody else's judgement and self-awareness is wrong.

Forgive me, for I must rant. Though this account is barely seconds old, here we go....

This was a really shitty comic to wake up to yesterday morning, why? Because I'm the guy being dismissed in the comic. I was taught my entire life to be nice to women, to never be manly, and that that's what women want. So I've spent a very long time doing exactly what I was taught to do just to get passed over for assholes (or at least what I was taught was asshole behavior, some of it was but some of it was normal, healthy male behavior.) That's a hard thing to deal with and it's made even harder by the fact that if I ever tried to talk about it feminists would slam for the usual reasons and then maybe a well meaning white-knight would come in and help them. So like most modern males I never reached out.

How did I get that way? How did I become the nice guy watching the girl he loved ride off into the sunset with an emotionally abusive asshole? I got that way by being raised by a feminist. Not a "men and women are equal" feminist but an "everything male is bad" feminist. A man-hating feminist. I was taught from a young age that dominance, sex drive, machoness, manhood, etc. were all very bad things and that they made men monsters. So with my childhood lessons in hand I became an adult, and being a good person I tried not to do 'very bad things'.

Unfortunately I was taught wrong.

So I ended up getting "friendzoned" a lot during my teens and 20's. A lot of the times were completely reasonable, just two people who weren't compatible learning how to communicate about inherently murky topics. That's life, we learn and we move on, and there really is no reason to be mad in those situations. But in retrospect there were other times where my "niceness" was taken advantage of and I ended up in some really unhealthy long-term situations. Those were very bad situations to be in and it took me a long time to learn how to avoid them precisely because that's how I was taught to be.

So please remember that when some guy is complaining that he got friendzoned you don't have enough information to tell him that the girl did nothing wrong, or that he did do something wrong. Leaping to conclusions when somebody comes to you and tells you they're a victim is generally a bad move. Because there's a very cynical and manipulative type of friendzoning and pretending like it doesn't exist only helps the manipulators. Do some guys fly the friendzone flag erroneously? Definitely. But when the guy who actually has been in bad situations sees nothing but attacks on anybody making similar claims, he's going to keep his mouth shut. And that's the final irony - those most likely to get friendzoned are the least likely to talk about it because they'll blame themselves.

And yes I had a part to play in all of my friendzoned adventures, most victims made some decisions along the way that contribute to their victimhood. I made decisions and held attitudes that left me vulnerable to emotional manipulation. And that's why this comic is hard for me to see, because it's just another reminder that it was my fault that I lost years of my life to emotional manipulators.

After all, shaming the friendzoners is classic victim-blaming - only this time it's justified by stripping them of the victim status they're claiming in the first place.
D'ja ever try saying "Hey, I'm in to you.. want to date?"

Because - and this is completely serious - there's only one person who puts you in the friendzone, and that's you. The other person? The only way they know you're in to them is if you tell them you're in to them. Otherwise, you're just a friend.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Kit. » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:40 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:You spent a large number of words telling a guy who pretty clearly wants intimacy, not friendship,

Is it even possible to have intimacy without friendship? If we don't confuse intimacy with fucking.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:47 pm UTC

Goranson wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:All the women who have the misfortune of interacting with those guys, for a start.

Do women have a special right not to interact with annoying people or something?


It often goes far beyond annoying into the realm of actual harassment. It's the difference between a beggar asking for some change to a beggar that won't stop following you and calling you names for refusing to give change, whining about all the cheap bastards that can spend $300 on shoes but not a dollar on the homeless, with the implication that the beggar would start mugging people if he didn't get any money. The police would swiftly beat the shit out of such people.

Girls do want 'nice guys'. But you? You aren't nice. Oh so you said some things and bought some stuff in the expectation of sex? That isn't nice. You want to be a real nice guy? A nice guy is someone that actually adds to the community without demanding anything in return. Want to be nice? Go to a soup kitchen and help cook. (Pro tip; volunteering is a great way to meet women).

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby sonar1313 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:50 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:You spent a large number of words telling a guy who pretty clearly wants intimacy, not friendship,

Is it even possible to have intimacy without friendship? If we don't confuse intimacy with fucking.

OK, let me rephrase. "A guy who pretty clearly wants intimacy, not just friendship."

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby TheKhan » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:52 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:
TheKhan wrote:"Friends and romantic partners are for most practical purposes, the same thing. Most of the time they are short-lived, but sometimes you find someone you spend the rest of your life with."

I disagree. Cue insults for "failing" and "wanting to stick things in" and whatnot, but as someone who has a lot of the former (of either gender) and none of the latter, I imagine my perspective might be different from yours. Coincidentially, my friendships tend to not be short-lived...

Have you considered that me, as someone who has had both, might have a better perspective to understand more about what a romantic partner is like? Just saying. The person who has experience in both is more likely to know to compare the two. You might just have a perspective that's warped by having never experienced a romantic partner, that's causing you to build it up to something it's not, and that might actually be part of what's tripping you up.

And this is better advice than you'll find on any of those "how to date girls" books you keep referencing. Because saying "You need to change your own attitude" doesn't sell books, but saying there's a magic trick to getting women to like you does. One is honest, the other isn't. Booksellers aren't in it to actually help you, they are in it to make something that sounds appealing and marketable. Whereas this random ass bitch on the Internet talking to you right now, has no interest in getting $20s out of you to buy a book, so I have no reason to be lying or exploitative to you. There's a lot of great websites on how to not do the shit you're currently doing. I hear constant good things about Dr Nerdlove. But who knows? I'm sure those books are working out great for you. Tell me about all the relationships they've gotten you.


Coming back with "I'm sure those books are working out great for you. Tell me about all the relationships they've gotten you." after what I wrote is about as low as it gets, and it would have hurt if I was younger. Did it feel good to write that? Good for you.

The books I read over the years ranged from genuine pick-up stuff (when I was younger) to serious behavioral psychology. And I did ask for opinions of friends more times than I can count, and also a professional opinion at some point. Didn't help much, but it was interesting in a way.

The only thing I wanted to share in this thread is that the "Nice Guy" situation is not as simple as it seems. Generally, this is not the approach somebody who just wants to "get in your pants" would take, but rather a sign of somebody with substantial relationship problems, whether it's their own fault or not. Thus, making fun of these people, with whom I can empathize quite well, strikes me as poor taste. As well as swearing and insulting people you don't agree with, by the way.

Do you have something else to say other than "People who have problems with relationships are probably all assholes and it's their own fault anyway."?

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby sonar1313 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:05 pm UTC

Invertin wrote:Now there ARE women who jerk around guys dragging them through the street by their heartstrings just for kicks, the ones who know that you want a relationship, and deliberately tease you with the possibility instead of trying to be cordial about it. They're still human beings and human beings are still capable of being huge assholes. In that situation though, what the fuck are you missing out on by not being in a relationship with that? Sounds more like the 'friendzone' was dodging a fucking bullet.

Yes. All true. But: There are also girls and women who string guys along without realizing it one bit. They're genuinely nice, well-intentioned people, who smile, maybe even flirt a little, and then the moment a guy makes his can-we-be-more-than-friends feelings known, they say, "oh sorry, I have a boyfriend." (Or else the guy finds out on his own before having the chance to make his feelings known.) And as often as not (particularly if you've known them for, oh, say, more than an hour but less than a month), they just want things to go on as before, because they like having friends.

This is why I don't agree with the above poster who says "the only person who puts you in the friendzone is you." Women send signals all the time without realizing how guys pick up on them, and it causes a lot of rejection. To some, then, clearly the problem is, "hey guys, learn the difference and you won't have any trouble," which ignores all sorts of experience both practical and scientific that men, as a group, on average, suck at doing that.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:12 pm UTC

TheKhan wrote:As well as swearing and insulting people you don't agree with, by the way.

The fuck's wrong with swearing?
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Weeks » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:23 pm UTC

somethingsomething42 wrote:Ahhh, the inherent irony in belittling the judement and self-awareness of somebody to let them know that belittling somebody else's judgement and self-awareness is wrong.

Forgive me, for I must rant. Though this account is barely seconds old, here we go....

This was a really shitty comic to wake up to yesterday morning, why? Because I'm the guy being dismissed in the comic. I was taught my entire life to be nice to women, to never be manly, and that that's what women want. So I've spent a very long time doing exactly what I was taught to do just to get passed over for assholes (or at least what I was taught was asshole behavior, some of it was but some of it was normal, healthy male behavior.) That's a hard thing to deal with and it's made even harder by the fact that if I ever tried to talk about it feminists would slam for the usual reasons and then maybe a well meaning white-knight would come in and help them. So like most modern males I never reached out.

How did I get that way? How did I become the nice guy watching the girl he loved ride off into the sunset with an emotionally abusive asshole? I got that way by being raised by a feminist. Not a "men and women are equal" feminist but an "everything male is bad" feminist. A man-hating feminist. I was taught from a young age that dominance, sex drive, machoness, manhood, etc. were all very bad things and that they made men monsters. So with my childhood lessons in hand I became an adult, and being a good person I tried not to do 'very bad things'.

Unfortunately I was taught wrong.

So I ended up getting "friendzoned" a lot during my teens and 20's. A lot of the times were completely reasonable, just two people who weren't compatible learning how to communicate about inherently murky topics. That's life, we learn and we move on, and there really is no reason to be mad in those situations. But in retrospect there were other times where my "niceness" was taken advantage of and I ended up in some really unhealthy long-term situations. Those were very bad situations to be in and it took me a long time to learn how to avoid them precisely because that's how I was taught to be.

So please remember that when some guy is complaining that he got friendzoned you don't have enough information to tell him that the girl did nothing wrong, or that he did do something wrong. Leaping to conclusions when somebody comes to you and tells you they're a victim is generally a bad move. Because there's a very cynical and manipulative type of friendzoning and pretending like it doesn't exist only helps the manipulators. Do some guys fly the friendzone flag erroneously? Definitely. But when the guy who actually has been in bad situations sees nothing but attacks on anybody making similar claims, he's going to keep his mouth shut. And that's the final irony - those most likely to get friendzoned are the least likely to talk about it because they'll blame themselves.

And yes I had a part to play in all of my friendzoned adventures, most victims made some decisions along the way that contribute to their victimhood. I made decisions and held attitudes that left me vulnerable to emotional manipulation. And that's why this comic is hard for me to see, because it's just another reminder that it was my fault that I lost years of my life to emotional manipulators.

After all, shaming the friendzoners is classic victim-blaming - only this time it's justified by stripping them of the victim status they're claiming in the first place.
I don't know why people do this, but really, getting put into the "friendzone" is not being a victim. You can cry that I'm being a feminazi or whatever, but it's the truth.

Not getting to date the girl you're into is not being a victim. Simply put, nobody owes you a relationship. Not even if you're super nice. Not even if you're the Nicest Guy in the WorldTM.

Emotional manipulation is a real thing, though. You can get taken advantage of, and that's unfortunate. Some people are assholes like that (regardless of gender!). Note here that I am not blaming you for being manipulated, because that's bullshit. The onus is not on you to not be manipulated, it's on other people to stop being assholes. And it's unfortunate that you ended up in a long-term situation, as you said, because someone manipulated you.

That has nothing to do with being friendzoned.

See, rejection is not inherently harmful, and friendzoning is like, the least harmful of rejections. You get a friendship out of it. Some people don't get anything. And if you really are as nice as you say, you should be surrounded by friends. Which I'm kind of doubtful about honestly, because of how you refer to being a victim and victim-blaming here as if being rejected makes you a victim.

I'm also sorry that you were raised a "man-hating feminist". Because sex drive is not a bad thing either, and men are not inherently evil. Many men do grow up to be terrible, but that's a choice some people make.

So like, stop associating emotional abuse with friendzoning, nobody owes you anything, some people are assholes, learn to see the difference. Peace.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Aliquid » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:24 pm UTC

I’m taking offense with the assumption that all single “nice guys” just want sex (and I’m not even one of them)

There are pickup artists that pretend to be nice guys, then there are genuine “nice guys” who are socially and romantically... challenged.

If you go to a genuine “nice guy” and say to him, that you have found him a girl where he can:
- Cherish her
- Genuinely care about how she feels
- Listen to her stories/concerns with genuine interest
- Understand her concerns and provide advice
- Laugh with her
- Surprise her with gifts
- Help her when she is in need
- Spend time together
- Be dedicated to her and her alone
And
She would both appreciate this behaviour, and offer the same in return

If you told a genuine lonely “nice guy” that he could have the above, but “no sex”, he would be ecstatic and jump for the opportunity.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Kit. » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:38 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:
Kit. wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:You spent a large number of words telling a guy who pretty clearly wants intimacy, not friendship,

Is it even possible to have intimacy without friendship? If we don't confuse intimacy with fucking.

OK, let me rephrase. "A guy who pretty clearly wants intimacy, not just friendship."

Maybe.

TheKhan, can you give us an idea on how many women you can call your real-life friends, and how you got their friendship?

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:45 pm UTC

Invertin wrote:I will just share a 'friendzone' moment myself. Although I didn't call it that at the time, I wasn't quite that stupid. I've since realized that the girl who online friends that didn't know the situation said might be my soulmate... was just some girl. I didn't really know her. I knew she was smart and cute and a nerd and I didn't actually know what kind of nerd she was. I didn't know if she played videogames or watched star trek I knew she wore glasses and liked science and history but that doesn't narrow it down. She turned me down insanely politely and I was so upset that I skipped the rest of school.

Gotta be like. Four years later? Something? Don't even remember her last name. Yeah, nope.

Forgive me for using you as an example, especially considering you've learned from your mistake, and that's awesome. But I want to lift this up. This is the most common problem I've encountered with "nice guys" or whatever The ones who suddenly spontaneously get angry at me because apparently I've been leading them on? Basically out of the 20 or so I've encountered in my life, around 15+ were what Invertin just described doing. This person who barely knew me, suddenly saying I was their soulmate and needed to date them or whatever.

A lot of people do this, and there's no shame in fucking up like that. Hell, I fucking did that once. Women fucking do it too. That's the whole premise of the Twilight Novels after all.

When you do this, there's two routes you can take:
1. Blaming all of womanhood, like Mr 1325 was doing.
2. Admit you have personal room to grow, like Invertin did, and and become a stronger, happier, healthier person.

And you know what? Strong, happy, healthy people are more likely to acquire romantic partners. People who make excuses, typically don't. It's a decision that some people like, like me and Invertin, to understand when something was your fault.

THat doesn't mean that it's not always the woman's fault. Sometimes it's the fucking woman's fault. Usually in the case of a woman who decides to abuse a man's low self-esteem. But you know what? There's men who abuse women's low self-esteem too? And that makes them bad people you're right. But it's BAD INDIVIDUALS. Womankind as a whole is not at fault for a few women being dicks, anymore than mankind as a whole is guilty because a small percentage of guys are cheating douchebags or rapists or whatever. It's not your fault if someone took advantage of your low self-esteem, they were the one who was wrong. But to quote the cliche, two wrongs don't make a right, and stereotyping women as all being lying scumbags, with no self-awareness or personal judgement, IS a wrong too. It's just as wrong as those women you occasionally encounter who act like all men are rapists. It's bad. You're doing a bad thing. You're blaming everyone for something 2-3% of people do.

You know what you call it when someone says all blacks are thugs, murderers, thieves, whatever? You call that racism.
You know what you call it when someone says all women are liars, or too stupid to know what they want? You call that sexism.
You know what you call it when someone says all men are rapists? That's sexism too.

Blaming an entire gender for the mistakes of a few people is bigotry, it is bad. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Kit. wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:You spent a large number of words telling a guy who pretty clearly wants intimacy, not friendship,

Is it even possible to have intimacy without friendship? If we don't confuse intimacy with fucking.

This. Ten thousand times this.

somethingsomething42 wrote:How did I get that way? How did I become the nice guy watching the girl he loved ride off into the sunset with an emotionally abusive asshole? I got that way by being raised by a feminist. Not a "men and women are equal" feminist but an "everything male is bad" feminist. A man-hating feminist. I was taught from a young age that dominance, sex drive, machoness, manhood, etc. were all very bad things and that they made men monsters. So with my childhood lessons in hand I became an adult, and being a good person I tried not to do 'very bad things'.


That's a bad thing. Men and women are both hurt by sexism. It doesn't matter what the sexism is. Sexism under the guise of feminism is still sexism. And trust me, those people irritate me too. Feminism, under the guise that males are all bad is fucking sexism. Feminism, under the guise that femininity is bad (one I'm more likely to personally encounter) is fucking sexism (it's more common than you think). Real feminism is understanding that men and women, masculinity and femininity are equal, and that so are masculine women, and feminine males. That everyone has a right to dignity, and deserves to not be stereotyped or treated as shit because of who they are. That people should be valued on how many positive traits they have, instead of how few negative traits they have. That folks should be valued for all the awesome things that they are, instead of whoever is the least bad choice.

Unfortunately, Mr Nice Guy is usually the least bad choice. He's not the good choice, he's the least bad. He has the fewest negative traits, not the most positive traits. After all, the best you can say about him is that "He's nice." I'm sorry you grew up in a shitty childhood, lots of us did, myself included. And I hope you're able to get past the scars of sexism that you were a victim of, and learn to be the best person you can be, masculine, feminine, or otherwise, so that you no longer feel that the best descriptor for you is that you're "nice," and you'll grow into all the wonderful potentialities that you can be.

But, once again, let's go back to the basic rule: Two wrongs don't make a right. Becoming sexist towards women, because you were raised in an environment that is sexist towards men, is not the solution.
Last edited by Karilyn on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Aliquid » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:01 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote: This is the most common problem I've encountered with "nice guys" or whatever The ones who suddenly spontaneously get angry at me because apparently I've been leading them on? Basically out of the 20 or so I've encountered in my life, around 15+ were what Invertin just described doing. This person who barely knew me, suddenly saying I was their soulmate and needed to date them or whatever.

I find this interesting...

I have met people that share your challenge, i.e. "guys/girls keep getting mad at me for ‘leading them on’, but I am not. What the hell is wrong with these people?”

At the same time I know plenty of people who don’t have that problem.

Is it something about your personality that drives these kinds of jerks to you like a moth to a flame? Is it something that you do or say that gives these guys the false belief that you are interested in them (in that way)?

I am in no way suggesting that you are doing something wrong, but if this happens to you more than to other women, then there is something about you that is causing this to happen (even if it isn’t intentional on your part).

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:13 pm UTC

Goranson wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:All the women who have the misfortune of interacting with those guys, for a start.

Do women have a special right not to interact with annoying people or something?
Everybody has a completely non-special right not to be harassed, which is often what happens in practice.

But I wasn't talking about who has a right not to interact with assholes, I was talking about who is harmed by their being assholes, since "who does that hurt" was literally the question I was responding to.

If you had wanted me to answer a different question entirely, perhaps you should have started out by asking a different question entirely in the first place?
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

TheKhan wrote:
Karilyn wrote:And this is better advice than you'll find on any of those "how to date girls" books you keep referencing. Because saying "You need to change your own attitude" doesn't sell books, but saying there's a magic trick to getting women to like you does. One is honest, the other isn't. Booksellers aren't in it to actually help you, they are in it to make something that sounds appealing and marketable. Whereas this random ass bitch on the Internet talking to you right now, has no interest in getting $20s out of you to buy a book, so I have no reason to be lying or exploitative to you. There's a lot of great websites on how to not do the shit you're currently doing. I hear constant good things about Dr Nerdlove. But who knows? I'm sure those books are working out great for you. Tell me about all the relationships they've gotten you.
Coming back with "I'm sure those books are working out great for you. Tell me about all the relationships they've gotten you." after what I wrote is a[bout as low as it gets, and it would have hurt if I was younger. Did it feel good to write that? Good for you.

Getting pissed at me because I'm trying to help you discover how to get relationships is not going to exactly help you in life. Just saying. But pointing out where you're making a mistake and how to fix it, is not trying to hurt you. It's trying to help you. The pain comes from looking into the mirror and realizing that there's a lot you can do to make yourself more attractive to the sorta women you want to get. And that you can do it. That it's not the fault of all those mean nasty horrible women. But that YOU can do it. But first you have to acknowledge that you're making some pretty huge mistakes, which you're showing in glorious technicolor through your posts.

But go on, continue to tell me how me offering you free advice, to genuinely help you, is how I'm trying to hurt you. Because that is not how you get ahead in life.

Aliquid wrote:
Karilyn wrote: This is the most common problem I've encountered with "nice guys" or whatever The ones who suddenly spontaneously get angry at me because apparently I've been leading them on? Basically out of the 20 or so I've encountered in my life, around 15+ were what Invertin just described doing. This person who barely knew me, suddenly saying I was their soulmate and needed to date them or whatever.

I find this interesting... I have met people that share your challenge, i.e. "guys/girls keep getting mad at me for ‘leading them on’, but I am not. What the hell is wrong with these people?” At the same time I know plenty of people who don’t have that problem.

Is it something about your personality that drives these kinds of jerks to you like a moth to a flame? Is it something that you do or say that gives these guys the false belief that you are interested in them (in that way)?

Yes. And yes.

It might sound hard to believe, because I'm dishing out tough love in this thread, and it's going to sound ironic in the context of this thread, but it's honestly because I'm too nice. In most cases it's a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with people being nice to them, especially with people of the opposite sex. Because they have never had someone treat them that nice before, they work up the delusion in their mind that I must be in love with them, or that I'm their soulmate. So they start to think of me as their future girlfriend or something, then get angry when they feel like I was leading them on by being nice to them.

Unfortunately, as has been stated by several people in this thread, being nice to someone doesn't mean they should fall in love with you. Which is the mistake that "Nice Guys" tend to make, on both sides of the aisle. In thinking that women they are nice to should fall in love with them, but also thinking that if a woman is nice to them, that she must be in love with them.

It's really a mistake born out of low exposure to people being nice to them. And that's not their fault in any way. The point where it becomes their fault is when they start treating women badly because they can't come to grips with their mistakes, it must be all those dirty women leading them on, using them.

And yes, I need to make a notation here that there are rare women who intentionally take advantage and use men low self-esteem, just like there are rare men who intentionally take advantage and use women with low self-esteem. Both case are absolutely fucking horrible, the victimizer is absolutely the bad guy, and just because someone has low self-esteem does not give you any right to take advantage of it, anymore than someone accidentally leaving their house unlocked makes it any less a robbery when someone steals your shit. It is not your fault that you have low self-esteem, that you left the door unlocked. THEY are in the wrong. The point you become in the wrong is when you use that as an excuse to be sexist towards others, to say that all women want to use you, that all men are rapists, whatever. That's when you become in the wrong, because two wrongs don't make a right, and I'll keep saying it until it's smashed into people's heads.

Aliquid wrote:I am in no way suggesting that you are doing something wrong, but if this happens to you more than to other women, then there is something about you that is causing this to happen (even if it isn’t intentional on your part).
I like you, you're a good feminist, even if you don't realize it. An important part of feminism is understanding that the victim isn't at fault, and a bad thing is still a bad thing even if the door is unlocked.

To use a stereotypical situation: You're not at fault for walking alone at night and getting robbed. You are at fault if the person you were robbed by happened to be a black person and adopt the mindset that all black people are muggers. Was walking alone at night something that makes you more vulnerable to getting robbed? Yeah sure, but that doesn't make it your fault, it was the person's fault for robbing you, BUT it wasn't the fault of all the black people in the world. If you think that, you're a racist and being racist IS your fault.

Just like having low self-esteem makes you more vulnerable doesn't make it your fault if you are taken advantage of, but it is your fault if you blame all the men, or all the women of the world for taking advantage of you, because that's sexism. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:
TheKhan wrote:As well as swearing and insulting people you don't agree with, by the way.

The fuck's wrong with swearing?

I love you, again, I love you. Like you don't even fucking know, holy fucking shit. If you we were both single and not on opposite sides of the internet, I would so fucking give a chance at dating you. Oh well. You're a goddamn bitch I can fucking get behind with a strap-on.

nohomo nocreepyinternetperson.

EDIT: Also, Weeks likewise get's my kudos for being the right kinda feminist. I felt this deserved a note alongside Aliquid.
Last edited by Karilyn on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:20 pm UTC, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:59 pm UTC

mythago wrote:"Being bitter"? The comic is targeting Rejected Dude for making foolish and sexist generalizations, not for being bitter. (Frankly, he doesn't seem bitter. Pompous, maybe.) Why is it "suspect"?

In fairness? Randall has done several strips targeting the Nice Guy, and none targeting the Nice Girl. The guy's complaint isn't totally bizarre here.

Nobody's telling you that you're wrong for wanting to be with someone, what they're telling you is that you're wrong with wanting to be with someone so you can stick your dick in them. If that's your primary motive for getting a girl, you're fucking failing at understanding the single most important reason for being with a girl. Companionship, and not of the fucking sexual kind.

It'd be cute if, for once, someone would make an argument defending "Nice Guys" that doesn't include "Why wouldn't they be upset that they can't stick a dick in every person they meet?" Because I'm sure someone could do it. I just haven't seen it yet.

...

Try "having a friend" vs "having a romantic partner. And then the analogy fucking works. Friends and romantic partners are for most practical purposes, the same thing. Most of the time they are short-lived, but sometimes you find someone you spend the rest of your life with.

Still hilarious.

"I get totally turned on by people who are affable, friendly and nice." - No one, ever.

Me, here, fuck you.

Nice is in fact, the opposite of that 7th trait. "Nice" is a shallow coat of paint under which a festering rot can be on the inside. For crying out loud, most serial killers are described as "affable, friendly and nice." That should tell you something about how fucking useless of a descriptor "nice" really is.

(non-obsolete definitions):
6.Respectable; virtuous. [from 18th c.]
7.Pleasant, satisfactory. [from 18th c.]
8.Of a person: friendly, attractive. [from 18th c.]

So, no.

Ok I'm just going to break it down here.

If you act FRIENDLY towards a female and they treat you as a FRIEND that is how that works.

If you try to be ROMANTIC towards a female and they decide they don't want to date you, that's their prerogative, that's free will, that's their decision and if you try to argue against it you are saying that their decision is false without putting the thought into thinking maybe this other person has their own reasons for saying that and I really have no clue what their life story is, even if I am literally holding their autobiography.

Oh for fuck's sake. Not only is the "Nice Guy" thing the comic talks about and what most of the people are complaining about not the same thing as Friendzoning, but the way several of the defenders of the comic are formulating it is exhausting.

1) Person 1 makes advances towards Person 2 (possibly because Person 2 says they're into "nice people")
2) Person 2 rejects those advances (possibly asking to be friends instead)
3) Person 2 then chooses to date Person 3, who is objectively a sexist/racist/moronic asshole
4) If Person 1 agreed to "remain friends" earlier, Person 2 may also, at this point, complain to Person 1 about how much of an asshole Person 3 is, wishing they could find people who are "nice like you". Alternatively, Person 1 and Person 2 are in same social circles, and Person 1 is aware of all the fighting/mistreatment Person 3 gives. Very, very rarely is Person 1 bewildered by Person 2 merely choosing a jock -- usually, the bewilderment comes from Person 3 also being a beater/cheater who genuinely mistreats them.
5) Person 1 blames the colossal irrationality of Person 2 on their gender, rather than the correct answer of "their general shittiness as a person".

Person 1 is frustrated because (1) Person 2 is implicitly saying that Person 1 is less attractive to them than someone who objectively mistreats them and is an asshole. (2) Person 2 is lying to them about why they turned them down, not allowing them to correct that behavior in the future, and (3) Person 1 has also been raised in a toxic culture that dishonestly tells him that politeness, respect, kindness will win anyone's heart, and is the most important quality as a person; a culture that also portrays toxic men or women in media as attractive, such as Marlin Brando's early roles, or any other of a multitude of utter arseholes who still get men and women swooning at them over equivalent but nicer characters. Person 1 may be influenced by this irrationality.

At no point in the comic OR the normal formulation of this "Nice Guy" thing is Person 1 required to have been trying to "sneak" a romance on Person 2 by being nice to them; that's "Friendzoning", a separate phenomena, even though, for fuck's sake, courting someone in that way isn't even obsolete in the modern West, much less globally, so why is everyone so gotdamn bewildered when someone tries it?


Person 1's sin is in allowing irrationality from their own frustration and from pop culture's toxic tropes to cause him to stereotype. Person 2's sin is in being dishonest to Person 1, NOT in "failing to let them stick their dick in it", which is both a violation of whatever trust 1 placed in 2, but also keeps 1 from fixing whatever problems they may have. In the comic we're all using as an example, Person 1 ISN'T EVEN BITCHING ABOUT NOT GETTING SEX. 1 is bitching about what they percieve as dishonesty, and irrationally applying it as a stereotype. Person 2 doesn't owe anyone sex, but DOES owe them honesty.

Person 1 needs to stop being a sexist, and be respectful. Person 2 needs to stop being a liar, and possibly also get away from Person 3 and find a Person 4, because that Person 3 sounds like a real asshole. Person 3 should probably be shot.


YES, Person 1 is being an asshole. NO, it's not because they expected sex, it's because they allowed themselves to respond to dishonesty with sexism.

As far as "friendzoning" goes, that's usually a clash between two different dating cultures -- it is a historically accepted way to court, it does still work with certain people/cultural groups. The people who come up with the idea of "friendzoning", however, are applying the method of one culture to an entirely different culture, and coming up with something irrational and stupid -- it's not that those people have a "friendzone" that you have to hurry to avoid, it's that they just don't interpret the same behavior as a flag.

Emotional manipulation is a real thing, though. You can get taken advantage of, and that's unfortunate. Some people are assholes like that (regardless of gender!). Note here that I am not blaming you for being manipulated, because that's bullshit. The onus is not on you to not be manipulated, it's on other people to stop being assholes. And it's unfortunate that you ended up in a long-term situation, as you said, because someone manipulated you.

That has nothing to do with being friendzoned.

See, rejection is not inherently harmful, and friendzoning is like, the least harmful of rejections. You get a friendship out of it. Some people don't get anything. And if you really are as nice as you say, you should be surrounded by friends. Which I'm kind of doubtful about honestly, because of how you refer to being a victim and victim-blaming here as if being rejected makes you a victim.

When people use "friendzone" and consistently describe what is clearly the "emotional manipulation" bit, it's kind of willfull naivete to claim that "friendzone" is simply "oh, it's a perfectly healthy friendship that you're simply ungrateful for". "Friendzone" is a stupid term, but the phenomena is still pretty much recognizable as either an accidental false positive, or intentionally leading someone on.

The continuous misidentification about what the "Nice Guy" is frustrated about? That's usually why their defenders keep arguing on threads like this. They're not frustrated that they didn't get to "Use" a person, they're frustrated that either a specific person lied to them, or that their culture is no longer applicable (or, in some cases, was a lie all along i.e. all the bullshit in the media about "women want bad boys"). They should be criticized for letting that frustration lead them into bigotry, but all this bullshit about them being objectifying bastard that "just want to treat women as sex objects" is unwarranted, needless vitriole.

(And, as always -- yeah, there ARE a few assholes who do think women just need to make 'em a sammich, and deserve to be taken out back and shot. But that's not what all Nice Guys are.)

If you go to a genuine “nice guy” and say to him, that you have found him a girl where he can:
- Cherish her
- Genuinely care about how she feels
- Listen to her stories/concerns with genuine interest
- Understand her concerns and provide advice
- Laugh with her
- Surprise her with gifts
- Help her when she is in need
- Spend time together
- Be dedicated to her and her alone
And
She would both appreciate this behaviour, and offer the same in return

If you told a genuine lonely “nice guy” that he could have the above, but “no sex”, he would be ecstatic and jump for the opportunity.

HOLY SHIT yes. Tina Fey in 30 Rock (i.e., the sex-averse character that wants to go straight to the comfortable fifty-year-old-coot part of the relationship) was ENORMOUSLY emotionally attractive to me.

THat doesn't mean that it's not always the woman's fault. Sometimes it's the fucking woman's fault. Usually in the case of a woman who decides to abuse a man's low self-esteem. But you know what? There's men who abuse women's low self-esteem too? And that makes them bad people you're right. But it's BAD INDIVIDUALS.

FINALLY, thank god.

Getting pissed at me because I'm trying to help you discover how to get relationships is not going to exactly help you in life. Just saying. But pointing out where you're making a mistake and how to fix it, is not trying to hurt you. It's trying to help you. The pain comes from looking into the mirror and realizing that there's a lot you can do to make yourself more attractive to the sorta women you want to get. And that you can do it. That it's not the fault of all those mean nasty horrible women. But that YOU can do it. But first you have to acknowledge that you're making some pretty huge mistakes, which you're showing in glorious technicolor through your posts.

But go on, continue to tell me how me offering you free advice, to genuinely help you, is how I'm trying to hurt you. Because that is not how you get ahead in life.

He's not asking for your help. He's noting that there are clearly a lot of people who are lonely (himself included), and pointing at the books not as good tools, but as evidence that there's clearly a lot of people who want to be "fixed".

You consistently telling him (when he's said that he's not buying into that PUA bs and is just moving on with his life) "LOL YOU BELIEVE THAT BS", "there's obviously something wrong with you", etc.? That is you trying to hurt him. Yeah, he admitted that there's a part of his life that he's not entirely satisfied in. That's not a solicitation for you to run in and start criticizing him, then tell him he's being crazy when he says "wow, that's unwelcome and hurtful, please stop."

It might sound hard to believe, because I'm dishing out tough love in this thread, and it's going to sound ironic in the context of this thread, but it's honestly because I'm too nice. In most cases it's a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with people being nice to them, especially with people of the opposite sex. Because they have never had someone treat them that nice before, they work up the delusion in their mind that I must be in love with them, or that I'm their soulmate. So they start to think of me as their future girlfriend or something, then get angry when they feel like I was leading them on by being nice to them.

Unfortunately, as has been stated by several people in this thread, being nice to someone doesn't mean they should fall in love with you. Which is the mistake that "Nice Guys" tend to make, on both sides of the aisle. In thinking that women they are nice to should fall in love with them, but also thinking that if a woman is nice to them, that she must be in love with them.

Sooooo...you're deliberately sending out what you know certain types of guys will interpret as signals (for your own reasons, but still in the knowledge that there's a very real likelihood they could get interpreted as such), then mocking them when they interpret them as signals.

Jeebus, the poor bastards.
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