1351: "Metamaterials"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
PinkShinyRose
Posts: 834
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:54 pm UTC
Location: the Netherlands

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:39 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
orthogon wrote:One of the most natural set of co-ordinates to use is Hue, Saturation and Brightness, where you start more or less with a pure spectral colour, add a certain amount of white (the more white, the less saturated) and then adjust the brightness of the whole thing. In this scheme, pink is desaturated red, i.e. red mixed with white, and brown is just dark red.

That's what I would mean by "pink", but in that MinutePhysics video he seems to mean "magenta". Really, "purple" would work better, because the line of purples is the usual term for the colors between red and blue.

My girlfriend however insists that "pink" and "light red" are different colors, so that combined with this video makes me think there are some people for whom "pink" means the less-blue hues of purples, i.e. magenta more or less. And yeah, those are pink of a sort... "hot pink" is a common term for magenta, anyway.

I think maybe a pie-slice out of the color wheel deserve the name: those hues from 300 until 0, and saturations from 100 to 0, and brightnesses from 100 to 0, with how much it counts as "pink" fading as it gets closer to (0,100,100) [red], (*,0,100) [white], or (*,*,0) [black]. Making magenta (300,100,100) the only corner of that "pink space" which is definitely solidly pink, but counting "light reds" (and dim shades of all of these) as pinks too.

I was thought pink was light red too when I was a kid. But it doesn't work all that great when mixing paint, you can sometimes get some pink, depending on the paint (probably depending on what red and white tints you're using, my school stocks generally had one red and one white, which I already thought of as rather off at the time, in retrospect especially the red was rather blueish) but not usually a nice deep pink that you're often looking for, sufficient for painting pigs though. I think additive colouring is even worse when terming light red as pink (try comparing RGB 255,110,110 to RGB 255,110,150), I think pink is more of a light magenta.

Arby's Mom
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:04 am UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Arby's Mom » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:20 am UTC

All this discussion of hues, etc. is over my head, but if he ever creates a way to photobomb Instagram pics to counteract the filters, count me in!

User avatar
Steve the Pocket
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:02 am UTC
Location: Going downtuuu in a Luleelurah!

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:36 am UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:I was thought pink was light red too when I was a kid. But it doesn't work all that great when mixing paint, you can sometimes get some pink, depending on the paint (probably depending on what red and white tints you're using, my school stocks generally had one red and one white, which I already thought of as rather off at the time, in retrospect especially the red was rather blueish) but not usually a nice deep pink that you're often looking for, sufficient for painting pigs though. I think additive colouring is even worse when terming light red as pink (try comparing RGB 255,110,110 to RGB 255,110,150), I think pink is more of a light magenta.

As many a metrosexual-in-denial has said of their light-red shirt, "It's not pink; it's salmon."
cephalopod9 wrote:Only on Xkcd can you start a topic involving Hitler and people spend the better part of half a dozen pages arguing about the quality of Operating Systems.

Baige.

peregrine_crow
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:20 am UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby peregrine_crow » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:26 am UTC

orthogon wrote:Violets are violet, presumably by definition.


Roses are red,
That's mostly true.
But Violets are purple,
and not fucking blue.

I can't take credit for this one, but I've always really liked it.

User avatar
Steve the Pocket
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:02 am UTC
Location: Going downtuuu in a Luleelurah!

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:04 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Magenta isn't just a desaturated violet. It's a redder violet, fully saturated. Violets look subjectively similar to hues approaching 270 (half way between blue and magenta), as you say because of the red cones' recovering response curve there. But that recovery cuts off well before there's ever a spectral color that stimulates the red and blue cones equally as magenta does.

Also I'm pretty sure we can artificially produce cyans more intense than any of those in the rainbow. You can definitely do it via a sort of optical illusion trick: stare at a blank red screen (here's one, mostly) for a few minutes, then stare at a white screen (click the white swatch there in the middle to get one) and bam, a more electrifying cyan than you've ever seen in nature.

And then you have creatures like the mantis shrimp, which have 16 different types of cones and we can only imagine what colors must look like to them.
cephalopod9 wrote:Only on Xkcd can you start a topic involving Hitler and people spend the better part of half a dozen pages arguing about the quality of Operating Systems.

Baige.

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2426
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:03 am UTC

Freaking mantis shrimp. I feel insecure in my superiority as a highly advanced life form every time I think about them.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

User avatar
keithl
Posts: 660
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:46 pm UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby keithl » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:32 pm UTC

By now, I had expected someone to cited a recent press release or paper about a metamaterial that simultaneously downshifted and upshifted colors. I didn't find one in 30 minutes of googling, and ... oh, look at the pretty bird! I'm distractable during web searches. The comic probably does not depict our world as described in the available scientific literature - yet.

Two stages of nonlinear mixing, filtering, and amplification might do it. Incoming light frequency f is mixed with F1, filter out the components at F1-f and amplify them. Then mix that with F2 (smaller than F1) and filter out the components in the optical band at (F1-F2)-f, and amplify that. Two frequency steps are necessary to allow us to filter out the original signal. Lets say F1 is 2100 THz, and F2 is at 1000 THz. Red light at 450 THz, blue at 650 THz. After the first step, red becomes 1650 Thz, blue becomes 1450 THz, and we band filter from 1350 THz to 1750 THz, then amplify. After the second step, red becomes 650 THz, and blue becomes 450 THz, and we filter from 350 THz to 750 THz to recover the optical band to amplify that. The problem is, we don't have a way to optically amplify broadband light, AFAIK, and this whole kludge will involve lots of deep UV lensing and high power sources, not merely
a passive slab of layered magic molecules.

So the cartoon depicts the Randallverse, where humans have thin black torsos and limbs, colors are composed of RGB pixels, and metamaterials perform arithmetic operations on pixels. This suggests a paper for the Annals of Improbable Research, involving "metamaterials" made with a computer tablet containing a camera and image modification software. Perhaps some ambitious programmer will post a picture from such "materials research" here.
Last edited by keithl on Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:22 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
HES
Posts: 4890
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:13 pm UTC
Location: England

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby HES » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:45 pm UTC

keithl wrote:a metamaterial that simultaneously downshifted and upshifted colors.

Or, the metamaterial panel is made of two parts - the left half downshifts and the right half upshifts (or vice versa if my physics is wrong).
He/Him/His Image

Unclevertitle
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:20 am UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Unclevertitle » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:11 pm UTC

HES wrote:
keithl wrote:a metamaterial that simultaneously downshifted and upshifted colors.

Or, the metamaterial panel is made of two parts - the left half downshifts and the right half upshifts (or vice versa if my physics is wrong).

And also somehow doesn't affect any of the light passing through the other parts of the sheet. Unless those two parts are exactly shaped to the profile of those flowers, or perhaps that one of each of the meta materials selectively shifts only a small frequency band of light.

Left half downshifts some blues to red. Right half upshifts some reds to blue.

orthogon wrote:@Pfhorrest, I basically agree with you. I maybe overstated my point, which is really that the spectral colours cover a wider range of hues than might have been the case. So magenta itself is outside the range of my system (wavelength, saturation, brightness).

It seems that whatever coordinates you choose, you either get colours that are outside the space or illegal colours in the space. A colleague of mine working on video compression many years ago once told me that his algorithms sometimes generated illegal colours, e.g. with negative rgb values or saturation exceeding 100%. He claimed that he'd learned to recognise these colours on the display by their eerie unnaturalness. I never saw what he meant but liked to think of parts of the picture glowing octarine.


Was your friend the 8th son of an 8th son by any chance?

User avatar
Introbulus
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:09 am UTC
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Introbulus » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:46 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Klear wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Adding tiny text to your post and then acting smug when people don't notice it is not cleverness.
Are there such people? I always though that making text tiny is drawing attention to it.
Adding size=1 text to your post is drawing the wrath of the Large Text Baron to it, which is trouble you've not known.

Unless you've had your small text previously embiggened by the LTB, I suppose.


I wasn't aware of this baron, or his wrath...I wonder what he thinks of my signature? :shock:

...This no longer has anything to do with metamaterials, OR poetry.
If you can read this, you are wasting your time.

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Flumble » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:32 am UTC

keithl wrote:Two stages of nonlinear mixing, filtering, and amplification might do it. Incoming light frequency f is mixed with F1, filter out the components at F1-f and amplify them. Then mix that with F2 (smaller than F1) and filter out the components in the optical band at (F1-F2)-f, and amplify that. Two frequency steps are necessary to allow us to filter out the original signal. Lets say F1 is 2100 THz, and F2 is at 1000 THz. Red light at 450 THz, blue at 650 THz. After the first step, red becomes 1650 Thz, blue becomes 1450 THz, and we band filter from 1350 THz to 1750 THz, then amplify. After the second step, red becomes 650 THz, and blue becomes 450 THz, and we filter from 350 THz to 750 THz to recover the optical band to amplify that. The problem is, we don't have a way to optically amplify broadband light, AFAIK, and this whole kludge will involve lots of deep UV lensing and high power sources, not merely
a passive slab of layered magic molecules.

You really can't just swap two frequencies? Even if you use the 2011 standard?

User avatar
Jackpot777
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:19 pm UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Jackpot777 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:29 pm UTC

Image

"After reviewing the play, I'm still blind" -- Stevie Wonder.

(Yes, I know that being blind isn't like seeing black. It's like what you see out of your elbow.)

airdrik
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 3:08 pm UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby airdrik » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:40 pm UTC

What about the possibility of it downshifting or upshifting non-visible-light-spectrum radiation into the visible spectrum?
That is either downshifting both the blue of the violet to red while also downshifting UV rays of the rose to blue, or upshifting both the red of the rose to blue while also upshifting IR rays of the violet to red?
The answer there depends on if either flower reflects radiation in the appropriate frequencies that the necessary up or down shifting will adjust the frequency into the optical range. (I assume most flowers will reflect UV rays which are the primary rays used by insects for finding them, but I'm not sure how much a red rose will reflect; my google-foo is failing due to excess noise surrounding these keywords)

User avatar
Quercus
Posts: 1806
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:22 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Quercus » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:19 pm UTC

orthogon wrote: Conversion of short wavelengths to longer wavelengths is what happens in fluorescence - does the reverse ever happen? I guess it would require two photons of just the right energies to be absorbed and one higher energy photon to be emitted.


You've basically just described multiphoton fluorescence microscopy. It's used because most biological tissues are more transparent to longer wavelengths, therefore you get much better imaging depths. It also damages living cells less than shorter wavelength lasers and has an "optical sectioning" effect (although you can get that with confocal microscopy as well) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiphoton_fluorescence_microscope

CWR
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:19 pm UTC

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby CWR » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:04 pm UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:As many a metrosexual-in-denial has said of their light-red shirt, "It's not pink; it's salmon."


What does it mean if my shirts just smell like salmon? Am I a metrosexual dog?
Last edited by CWR on Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:22 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
PinkShinyRose
Posts: 834
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:54 pm UTC
Location: the Netherlands

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:32 pm UTC

CWR wrote:
As many a metrosexual-in-denial has said of their light-red shirt, "It's not pink; it's salmon."


What does it mean if my shirts just smell like salmon? Am I a metrosexual dog?

Possibly, but mostly because you'd be a dog wearing a shirt. The salmon smell just makes you sloppy...
Last edited by PinkShinyRose on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:23 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Eternal Density
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:37 am UTC
Contact:

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby Eternal Density » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:52 pm UTC

Guys, fix your quote tags!
Play the game of Time! castle.chirpingmustard.com Hotdog Vending Supplier But what is this?
In the Marvel vs. DC film-making war, we're all winners.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10271
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby addams » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:39 am UTC

peregrine_crow wrote:
orthogon wrote:Violets are violet, presumably by definition.


Roses are red,
That's mostly true.
But Violets are purple,
and not fucking blue.

I can't take credit for this one, but I've always really liked it.

I can understand Why you like it.
I like it, too.

I'm thinking of printing it and pasting it onto the Frig.
Spoiler:
At the Church.


Eternal Density wrote:Guys, fix your quote tags!

Gee, Eternal Density;
Who died and made you the Forum's eleven year old girl?

Don't Explode!
We need eleven year old girls.

Who knows what ugliness we would start leaving tossed here and there,
without the bright, observant, super critical Little Miss Perfects.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 3080
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby orthogon » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:31 pm UTC

addams wrote:
Eternal Density wrote:Guys, fix your quote tags!

Gee, Eternal Density;
Who died and made you the Forum's eleven year old girl?

Don't Explode!
We need eleven year old girls.

Who knows what ugliness we would start leaving tossed here and there,
without the bright, observant, super critical Little Miss Perfects.

ED and I may disagree on the existence of God, but we're on absolutely the same page regarding the proper nesting and matching of quote tags. The unresolved tension is almost too much to bear. I think I may have lost sleep over it. In fact I was about to post almost exactly word-for-word what ED wrote. I mean, we've all done it, but by the time PSR had quoted the already messed-up quote by CWR, it was anyone's guess who'd said what. ;-) Thankfully, it looks as though PSR has responded to ED's exhortation.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

User avatar
PinkShinyRose
Posts: 834
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:54 pm UTC
Location: the Netherlands

Re: 1351: "Metamaterials"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:46 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
addams wrote:
Eternal Density wrote:Guys, fix your quote tags!

Gee, Eternal Density;
Who died and made you the Forum's eleven year old girl?

Don't Explode!
We need eleven year old girls.

Who knows what ugliness we would start leaving tossed here and there,
without the bright, observant, super critical Little Miss Perfects.

ED and I may disagree on the existence of God, but we're on absolutely the same page regarding the proper nesting and matching of quote tags. The unresolved tension is almost too much to bear. I think I may have lost sleep over it. In fact I was about to post almost exactly word-for-word what ED wrote. I mean, we've all done it, but by the time PSR had quoted the already messed-up quote by CWR, it was anyone's guess who'd said what. ;-) Thankfully, it looks as though PSR has responded to ED's exhortation.

It being a quote, I did consider adding a zero-width space in the quoted quote tag to fix my quote. I then decided to trust CWR would fix their quote and so everything was fixed after they did.


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 50 guests