1368: "One Of The"

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby PointSpecial » Wed May 14, 2014 10:25 pm UTC

Anybody else notice that "The Arch" was featured on the main search page of bing.com?


... or am I the only one who uses Bing...

Come on, they practically PAY me to do so! I've earned a whole bunch of Amazon gift cards! At least they're PAYING me to use my data (unlike Google, who just takes it and then tries to sell me... exactly.. what... I... want...)

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby speising » Wed May 14, 2014 10:34 pm UTC

Brace wrote:
speising wrote:"after killing the woman the alledged perpetrator ...."


Respect for due process is a pet peeve?


it's not alledged when the subject is defined via the crime, and not a specific person.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Mortomes » Wed May 14, 2014 10:51 pm UTC

One of my greatest pet peeves

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Wed May 14, 2014 11:04 pm UTC

You know what pisses me off about the Gateway Arch? You can't actually go under it! It's not positioned over anything at all; it's just standing there in the middle of a plot of land. That's not how "gateways" work! And don't give me that "symbolism" jargle; if I were to erect a statue of a door in the middle of my front yard and say its "symbolic" of the entrance to my house, people would think I was crazy.

speising wrote:
Brace wrote:
speising wrote:"after killing the woman the alledged perpetrator ...."

Respect for due process is a pet peeve?

it's not alledged when the subject is defined via the crime, and not a specific person.

Exactly. The alleged perpetrator is the suspect the police arrested. The actual perpetrator is the person who committed the crime. Ironically, by stating that the alleged perpetrator actually killed someone, you're saying that the suspect is the one whodunnit. It's like it cancels itself out or something, like how nerds think double negatives work. If you want to qualify your statement about what witnesses say happened, then throw in a "witnesses report..." somewhere.
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby madaco » Thu May 15, 2014 12:22 am UTC

Why not

"The perpetrator ( alleged to be [...]) [...], and it is alleged that the perpetrator then [...]."

(To cover the case of if it is not entirely clear whether the perpetrator did the other thing at that time, or at all)

(Though maybe that is known to not be a possibility in the situations being described, I don't know.)
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby chris857 » Thu May 15, 2014 12:31 am UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:You know what pisses me off about the Gateway Arch? You can't actually go under it!


Huh? I can go under it. I can even go underground under it. Sure, I can also go around it. I did all this a couple weeks ago.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby ps.02 » Thu May 15, 2014 1:59 am UTC

speising wrote:"after killing the woman the alledged perpetrator suspect ...."

FTFY.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby jc » Thu May 15, 2014 2:26 am UTC

Coyne wrote:Someone else notices! I hate this in all its variations. It's like saying:

"Mount Everest, one of the tallest mountains on Earth."


I once heard a fun case of this, in which the guy started off saying that Everest is one of the three tallest mountains on Earth. After a brief pause, when some of the audience started laughing, he said "No, really; there are three 'tallest mountains' on our planet, for three reasonable definitions of 'tallest mountain'." He went on to challenge them to come up with the list, and explain why each of the three qualifies as "the tallest mountain on Earth". It's kinda fun to realize that this phrase is actually rather ambiguous. It's also kinda fun that no two of the three are on the same continent (and one's not on any continent at all).

I'll let y'all think about it for a while ... (and no fair googling it; figure it out for yourself ;-).

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Mikeski » Thu May 15, 2014 2:44 am UTC

Of all the funny threads I've posted in, this is definitely one of them.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Mikeski » Thu May 15, 2014 3:01 am UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:
speising wrote:
Brace wrote:
speising wrote:"after killing the woman the alledged perpetrator ...."

Respect for due process is a pet peeve?

it's not alleged when the subject is defined via the crime, and not a specific person.

Exactly. The alleged perpetrator is the suspect the police arrested. The actual perpetrator is the person who committed the crime.

And because speising stopped to soon with his 133% ellipses, his original post could refer to the "alleged perp" or the "actual perp". So he's right, and Brace is right.

"after killing the woman, the alleged perpetrator stole her wedding ring and fled from her home by an egress window" ... using "alleged" is kinda silly.

"after killing the woman, the alleged perpetrator fled to his home on Wedding Ring Lane" ... correct (well, more correct than the other one, but the first clause is still presuming guilt when it probably shouldn't. Stop tainting the jury pool, you half-behinded newspaper reporters!)

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby MTGradwell » Thu May 15, 2014 7:14 am UTC

Envelope Generator wrote:You call that a pet peeve? Puny. The Gateway Arch is one of the only arches in St. Louis.

Yes, why would anybody do that? "Only" is not a synonym for "few". That's one of the only things I really hate!!!

Another pet peeve: People who use multiple asterisks!!!! :).

And another: People who use unnecessary smileys when it's obvious anyway that they were joking :) .

Oh, and another one (to pre-empt the replies): People who think you're being serious even though you used a smiley and it should be obvious anyway that you were joking :( .

And finally, people who use too many smileys, and inappropriate ones at that :o :shock: :? 8-) :oops: :evil: .

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby PayasYouDraw » Thu May 15, 2014 7:59 am UTC

writerbenjamin wrote:I would think that the many Golden Arches would be the more recognizable than the Gateway Arch. "One of the" is appropriate here.


We all know the McDonald's logo is really a letter M though.
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby orthogon » Thu May 15, 2014 9:02 am UTC

MTGradwell wrote:Another pet peeve: People who use multiple asterisks!!!! :).

Quite so: multiple "zero-or-more" quantifiers can be collapsed into one with no change in meaning. ;)
EDIT: Actually I'm not sure that's true in a regex. It is in an ordinary wildcard match, though (e.g. for a filename).
EDIT2: OK, it looks like multiple asterisks are a syntax error.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Philbert » Thu May 15, 2014 11:22 am UTC

"One of the best" is not clearly objective.
If I say "George W. Bush" is one of the best presidents of all time, is that an objective statement?

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby cellocgw » Thu May 15, 2014 11:32 am UTC

orthogon wrote:That it has an arch is one of the few things I know about St Louis. This morning, I didn't even know that. I did know, however, that it is one surprisingly few US cities with an eponymous blues.

BTW, is the "s" silent?


Yeah, the first one is :P
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby brenok » Thu May 15, 2014 11:39 am UTC

Philbert wrote:"One of the best" is not clearly objective.
If I say "George W. Bush" is one of the best presidents of all time, is that an objective statement?

Yes. Independently of which subjective meter you classify the presidents, if there were N presidents, any president is on the list of N best presidents.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby orthogon » Thu May 15, 2014 1:34 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
orthogon wrote:That it has an arch is one of the few things I know about St Louis. This morning, I didn't even know that. I did know, however, that it is one surprisingly few US cities with an eponymous blues.

BTW, is the "s" silent?


Yeah, the first one is :P

"It ain't Louis if it ain't Saint Louis". Thank you. I was hoping somebody would say that. :) It wasn't a deliberate set-up, but after I posted it I realised what an open goal I'd left...

I've heard Louis Armstrong's name pronounced three different ways, by people who appear to know all about him. I've always wondered which is correct. (Though not enough to google it, obviously).

ETA:
brenok wrote:
Philbert wrote:"One of the best" is not clearly objective.
If I say "George W. Bush" is one of the best presidents of all time, is that an objective statement?

Yes. Independently of which subjective meter you classify the presidents, if there were N presidents, any president is on the list of N best presidents.

This might be the conclusion from mapping the idea to the mathematical concept of the i largest members of a set of N objects then taking a degenerate case as i->N, but I doubt that most English speakers would agree that it was a reasonable interpretation of "one of the best". It's not reasonable to argue that an individual in the bottom half is nevertheless "one of the best". It's like the situation I've encountered twice in my recent working life, where I have wanted to argue that "multiple" includes "single". For an engineer, mathematician or computer scientist it kind-of does, but I think our learned friends would disagree.
Last edited by orthogon on Thu May 15, 2014 2:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby jameslovecraft » Thu May 15, 2014 1:43 pm UTC

This is one of the most interesting xkcd comics ever. ;) And one of the easiest to make puns about in the comments!

Mikeski wrote:"Alex" might be both a male and female name, but a specific Alex would be "he" or "she". No need to try to get "one" to work there.


Not necessarily. Alex could be genderqueer, or genderfluid, or androgynous, or agender... etc. The singular "they" has been in use since the inception of English grammar. And if we can put made-up words like "google" and "app" in the dictionary, then we can accommodate our language to use other gender neutral and nonbinary pronouns. There is no thing as an "opposite" sex or gender and saying that, or saying "both genders/sexes" (not to mention, defining those on one's physical attributes), erases anyone who doesn't identify within the gender binary.

Also, a nitpick from someone's earlier comment: "hermaphrodite" is an outdated and fairly offensive term. People born with indeterminate genitals are intersex people.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Carteeg_Struve » Thu May 15, 2014 2:44 pm UTC

"... one of the most recognizable arches in St. Louis. [one of the citations allegedly needed]"

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby mathmannix » Thu May 15, 2014 3:19 pm UTC

Number3Pencils wrote:I'm kind of mystified as to why a reporter would currently be doing a story about Eero Saarinen (d. 1961) or Hannskarl Bandel (d. 1993), the designers of the Gateway Arch.


Actually, even more mystifyingly, the reporter seems to be doing an article on something Saarinen designed before he designed the Gateway Arch in 1947, with a tangent on Saarinen having later designed the Arch. Which looks to be a couple of music halls, and a few houses in Michigan, nothing that really jumps out at me for being noteworthy. There are several college buildings farther down the list, including at MIT and UIC, that are more worthy of an article - and most notably, the TWA termianal at JFK (1956), Dulles International Airport near D.C. (1958), and the CBS Building in New York (1960), but they were years later, near the end of his career.
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby BunsenH » Thu May 15, 2014 3:24 pm UTC

ilduri wrote:Actually, gendered pronouns are not chosen on the basis of a person's sex, but on the basis of their gender. Sex refers to what chromosomes\genitals\gonads a person was born with; gender refers to wether someone is a man or a woman (or neither). Sex and gender don't always align: not all men have penises, not all women have XX chromosomes, and so on. It may be pedantic, but the distinction between sex and gender becomes pretty important around folks who are intersex, transgender, or transsexual.


Your point is well taken. The old rule was "pronouns have gender, people have sex" (with an implied snigger) but we pay more attention to such distinctions now (and rightly so).

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby shooop » Thu May 15, 2014 3:33 pm UTC

PSUnderwood wrote:For even greater annoyance, preface "one of the" with "arguably".

Spot on. Qualify any opinion with "Arguably one of the" and you can make a statement that sounds bold but is so inclusive that it is meaningless.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby orthogon » Thu May 15, 2014 3:46 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
chridd wrote:The difference between xe/ze/etc. and it, at least to me, is that xe etc. are animate, whereas it is inanimate.

That's a rat's nest, too. Ask someone who knows Japanese about the difference between iru and aru. ("to be", for animate and inanimate things.) When the zombie apocalypse comes, you don't want to be arguing whether a zombie is "xe" or "it". You'll just get your brains eaten.

If that's too clear-cut, what about a virus? A venus flytrap? A slime mold? A sunflower? A robot? A (human) sperm cell & egg cell?

At least in English it's ok to use "it" to refer to animals. Animal lovers might disagree, but overall there's quite a wide range of overlap where you can use "he" or "she" if for some reason you know the sex (and some animals are notoriously difficult to sex, leaving aside intersex individuals) or "it" if you don't. I guess the iru/aru divide is more difficult because it's not ok to use aru for an animal.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby chris857 » Thu May 15, 2014 4:24 pm UTC

jc wrote:
Coyne wrote:Someone else notices! I hate this in all its variations. It's like saying:

"Mount Everest, one of the tallest mountains on Earth."


I once heard a fun case of this, in which the guy started off saying that Everest is one of the three tallest mountains on Earth. After a brief pause, when some of the audience started laughing, he said "No, really; there are three 'tallest mountains' on our planet, for three reasonable definitions of 'tallest mountain'." He went on to challenge them to come up with the list, and explain why each of the three qualifies as "the tallest mountain on Earth". It's kinda fun to realize that this phrase is actually rather ambiguous. It's also kinda fun that no two of the three are on the same continent (and one's not on any continent at all).

I'll let y'all think about it for a while ... (and no fair googling it; figure it out for yourself ;-).


And here we go, with no help from the Internet:

-Mount Everest (Asia), highest point above sea level
-Mauna Kea? (Pacific Ocean), tallest from base to peak
-Some mountain in Latin America (Peru?), highest point from center of Earth

PS. I hear K2 is a harder climb than Everest.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby cellocgw » Thu May 15, 2014 4:47 pm UTC

[quote="chris857"


PS. I hear K2 is a harder climb than Everest.[/quote]

Depends where you start from :mrgreen:
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu May 15, 2014 5:02 pm UTC

chris857 wrote:
jc wrote:
Coyne wrote:Someone else notices! I hate this in all its variations. It's like saying:

"Mount Everest, one of the tallest mountains on Earth."


I once heard a fun case of this, in which the guy started off saying that Everest is one of the three tallest mountains on Earth. After a brief pause, when some of the audience started laughing, he said "No, really; there are three 'tallest mountains' on our planet, for three reasonable definitions of 'tallest mountain'." He went on to challenge them to come up with the list, and explain why each of the three qualifies as "the tallest mountain on Earth". It's kinda fun to realize that this phrase is actually rather ambiguous. It's also kinda fun that no two of the three are on the same continent (and one's not on any continent at all).

I'll let y'all think about it for a while ... (and no fair googling it; figure it out for yourself ;-).


And here we go, with no help from the Internet:

-Mount Everest (Asia), highest point above sea level
-Mauna Kea? (Pacific Ocean), tallest from base to peak
-Some mountain in Latin America (Peru?), highest point from center of Earth

PS. I hear K2 is a harder climb than Everest.

I only knew the first two.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby tempest69 » Thu May 15, 2014 5:04 pm UTC

Any reasonable person would reason that the golden arches are the most recognizable in St Louis.
So perhaps it might rank number 35ish
Coyne wrote:Yes, yes, yes, yes!

Someone else notices! I hate this in all its variations. It's like saying:

"Mount Everest, one of the tallest mountains on Earth."
"Our Sun, one of the most important stars we see in our sky."
"Earth, the world on which we live and which we see as one of the most important solid objects in the universe!"

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby PayasYouDraw » Fri May 16, 2014 7:57 am UTC

orthogon wrote:
Mikeski wrote:
chridd wrote:The difference between xe/ze/etc. and it, at least to me, is that xe etc. are animate, whereas it is inanimate.

That's a rat's nest, too. Ask someone who knows Japanese about the difference between iru and aru. ("to be", for animate and inanimate things.) When the zombie apocalypse comes, you don't want to be arguing whether a zombie is "xe" or "it". You'll just get your brains eaten.

If that's too clear-cut, what about a virus? A venus flytrap? A slime mold? A sunflower? A robot? A (human) sperm cell & egg cell?

At least in English it's ok to use "it" to refer to animals. Animal lovers might disagree, but overall there's quite a wide range of overlap where you can use "he" or "she" if for some reason you know the sex (and some animals are notoriously difficult to sex, leaving aside intersex individuals) or "it" if you don't. I guess the iru/aru divide is more difficult because it's not ok to use aru for an animal.


Not to mention the common English usage of "she" and sometimes "he" for inanimate (and usually human-made) objects. For example, I have a sailing boat. She's a beautiful thing and I'm going to sail her tomorrow.

A robot, being a machine, could very well be referred to as a "she", unless it's an android made to look like a man I guess.
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby jc » Fri May 16, 2014 12:51 pm UTC

chris857 wrote:And here we go, with no help from the Internet:

-Mount Everest (Asia), highest point above sea level
-Mauna Kea? (Pacific Ocean), tallest from base to peak
-Some mountain in Latin America (Peru?), highest point from center of Earth

PS. I hear K2 is a harder climb than Everest.


Yup. The one in in the Andes is Mount Chimborazo, right on the equator in Ecuador.

Actually, one of the more fun things (if you're into nit picking) is that people often confuse "highest" and "tallest". But, for example, if you go from sea level to Colorado or Tibet, you're higher but no taller. "High" normally means your position relative to some reference point (sea level aka geodesic), while "tall" is the height of the top of your head relative to the bottom of your feet.

This is sometimes used to point out that Everest may be one of the three "highest" mountains on Earth, but it's not even among the ten "tallest". Measured from its base, which is essentially the altitude of the nearby Tibetan plain, it's not all that tall. Mauna Kea is actually the tallest peak on Earth, measured from the nearby Pacific floor, though it's not the highest because its base is one of the lowest areas on the planet. Most of the "tallest" mountains are big volcanoes.

Chimborazo is one of the answers to another fun geography trivia questions: Can you name the two points on Earth where there are glaciers on the equator? Many people can get the approximate locations right, but can't correctly name the mountains. (And the glaciers in both places are shrinking rapidly; the equator may not actually cross the ice on both of them by now. It's been a couple of decades since I first ran across this question.)

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby squall_line » Fri May 16, 2014 1:04 pm UTC

jameslovecraft wrote:
Mikeski wrote:"Alex" might be both a male and female name, but a specific Alex would be "he" or "she". No need to try to get "one" to work there.


Not necessarily. Alex could be genderqueer, or genderfluid, or androgynous, or agender... etc.


The other reason, of course, is if one is attempting to be intentionally obtuse about who Alex is, and their relationship with Alex. This is sometimes used to comedic or dramatic effect in Situational Comedies, other TV shows, and movies. The introduction of the "Alex" character on The Big Bang Theory television show used this device, although the obfuscation of Alex's sex was unintentional and used for comedic effect, rather than intentional and used for dramatic effect.

Couples tend to have this happen fairly often, too, and it can become a pretty big issue in a low-trust relationship.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby addams » Fri May 16, 2014 1:28 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:This is one of my first posts in this thread.

Sorry, I meant, this is a very early post of mine in this thread.

Maybe I should just say it's possible the first post of mine in this thread?

I'm pretty sure it will be widely regarded as my first post in this thread, at the least.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby shokoshu » Fri May 16, 2014 2:03 pm UTC

One of the German language peeve corners in a magazine I read a long time ago had exactly this theme,
rendering this xkcd comic a) language invariant and b) superfluous. :twisted:

(For our German friends: Not Bastian Sick. Eike-Christian Hirsch long before him.)

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby jpvlsmv » Fri May 16, 2014 3:08 pm UTC

shooop wrote:
PSUnderwood wrote:For even greater annoyance, preface "one of the" with "arguably".

Spot on. Qualify any opinion with "Arguably one of the" and you can make a statement that sounds bold but is so inclusive that it is meaningless.

I literally explode when I hear things like that from arguably one of the [most|least|] important people on the internet.

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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby speising » Fri May 16, 2014 3:16 pm UTC

jc wrote:
chris857 wrote:And here we go, with no help from the Internet:

-Mount Everest (Asia), highest point above sea level
-Mauna Kea? (Pacific Ocean), tallest from base to peak
-Some mountain in Latin America (Peru?), highest point from center of Earth

PS. I hear K2 is a harder climb than Everest.


Yup. The one in in the Andes is Mount Chimborazo, right on the equator in Ecuador.

Actually, one of the more fun things (if you're into nit picking) is that people often confuse "highest" and "tallest". But, for example, if you go from sea level to Colorado or Tibet, you're higher but no taller. "High" normally means your position relative to some reference point (sea level aka geodesic), while "tall" is the height of the top of your head relative to the bottom of your feet.

This is sometimes used to point out that Everest may be one of the three "highest" mountains on Earth, but it's not even among the ten "tallest". Measured from its base, which is essentially the altitude of the nearby Tibetan plain, it's not all that tall. Mauna Kea is actually the tallest peak on Earth, measured from the nearby Pacific floor, though it's not the highest because its base is one of the lowest areas on the planet. Most of the "tallest" mountains are big volcanoes.

Chimborazo is one of the answers to another fun geography trivia questions: Can you name the two points on Earth where there are glaciers on the equator? Many people can get the approximate locations right, but can't correctly name the mountains. (And the glaciers in both places are shrinking rapidly; the equator may not actually cross the ice on both of them by now. It's been a couple of decades since I first ran across this question.)


so, where is the point with the lowest mean air pressure? everest or chimborazo?

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orthogon
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby orthogon » Fri May 16, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

speising wrote:so, where is the point with the lowest mean air pressure? everest or chimborazo?

The same as the place with the lowest value of g?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Pfhorrest
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 16, 2014 5:53 pm UTC

addams wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:This is one of my first posts in this thread.

Sorry, I meant, this is a very early post of mine in this thread.

Maybe I should just say it's possible the first post of mine in this thread?

I'm pretty sure it will be widely regarded as my first post in this thread, at the least.

*tisk-tisk* Pfhorrest;
You can't lie to us about your post count.

I said "this thread", not "this forum".
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
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San Fran Sam
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby San Fran Sam » Fri May 16, 2014 6:36 pm UTC

Showsni wrote:Of course, saying something is one of something is about as useful as telling you the Arch is visited by up to ten thousand people or more each year.


I'd say that pretty much covers all of your bases.

Or at lease one of all of your bases.

Burton
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Burton » Fri May 16, 2014 7:42 pm UTC

San Fran Sam wrote:
Showsni wrote:Of course, saying something is one of something is about as useful as telling you the Arch is visited by up to ten thousand people or more each year.


I'd say that pretty much covers all of your bases.

Or at lease one of all of your bases.



But to whom are all your bases belong?

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Pfhorrest
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 16, 2014 8:34 pm UTC

At least one or more of us.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

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chridd
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Re: 1368: "One Of The"

Postby chridd » Fri May 16, 2014 9:35 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:At least one or more of us.
That's just redundant (and it does give some information).
~ chri d. d. /tʃɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics, schmphonotactics) · she · Forum game scores
mittfh wrote:I wish this post was very quotable...


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