1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby operagost » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:35 pm UTC

"Spotted Giant Flying Squirrel" movie?

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pidgeot » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:38 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Clearly there is a feeling that each kana represents one syllable, so kimashita is four syllables, and yet the same word pronounced the same way would clearly be only three syllables in English (kimashta).


One kana represents one mora, not a syllable (except for small characters, where only っ/ッ add a mora, and the rest do not). Syllables don't really apply to Japanese; the mora is the basic unit of speech, unlike e.g. English.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:50 pm UTC

Pidgeot wrote:
orthogon wrote:Clearly there is a feeling that each kana represents one syllable, so kimashita is four syllables, and yet the same word pronounced the same way would clearly be only three syllables in English (kimashta).


One kana represents one mora, not a syllable (except for small characters, where only っ/ッ add a mora, and the rest do not). Syllables don't really apply to Japanese; the mora is the basic unit of speech, unlike e.g. English.

Thanks, that's interesting. But this is exactly what I'm getting at: is a syllable, or isn't it, a thing? Surely it's either a thing in both English and Japanese, or in neither? After all there are utterances that lie in the intersection of English and Japanese phonology: what happens to the syllables when the Japanese speaker utters it?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby mathmannix » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:16 pm UTC

alanbbent wrote:I think "screeched" is considered the longest one-syllable word. But it's hard to fit into one syllable. And how many syllables is meow? (or miaow)


One or more, depending on the particular cat and its particular mood. But it definitely can be as few as one.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby drazen » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:32 pm UTC

I, too, was trying to figure out how to work in the other lyrics that didn't fit the TMNT pattern.

Personally, I usually do "song badly translated into Spanish on the fly," not "one song as another." The Beatles' "Hello, Goodbye" works nearly perfectly for it (Dices sí, digo no, dices Para!, y digo ve, ve, ve. Ay, no. Dices adiós, y digo hola. Hola, hola! No sé porque dices adiós, digo hola...)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby HES » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:44 pm UTC

alanbbent wrote:And how many syllables is meow?

One and a half.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:08 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:A long time ago a friend of mine introduced me to a challenge he'd invented, which required him to think of an N letter word with N-1 syllables. He'd got any number of two-letter monosyllables, and he'd got oil for N=3 and oily for N=4. Whether these are really allowed hinges on the whole question of whether a diphthong is one syllable or two. I've wondered ever since whether there's a solution for N>4.

There's sometimes *also* a question of how many syllables a given pronunciation is, but I think the issue here is between two actually distinct pronunciations. "Oil" could be one syllable which happens to be a diphthong, or to, the first ("oy") of which is a diphthong and the second of which ("yul") isn't.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Samik » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:25 pm UTC

alanbbent wrote:I think "screeched" is considered the longest one-syllable word. But it's hard to fit into one syllable. And how many syllables is meow? (or miaow)

Along with "scratched", "stretched", "strengths", and... probably others?


cellocgw wrote:
mathmannix wrote:Also, I always want to pronounce "Gloucester" as glau-CHESS-ter, which obviously wouldn't work, but of course the title Duke of Glo[uce]ste[r] would work with the letters that England (and Massachusetts) forget.


Even worse, we here in MA have "Wuhster" aka Worcester, but we have "Dorchester" aka Dorchester. And pronounce "Trapelo Road" at your own risk.


Maybe I'm nuts, but the whole Worcester/Gloucester thing never troubled me very much. Just imagine taking away the "ster", and how would you pronounce what's left? Would you really pronounce "Worce" as "Woor-Che"?

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby chris857 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:35 pm UTC

LtPowers wrote:Tut tut, "Church of Jesus Christ Creator" is just a redirect, not an article.


And "Places named for Adolf Hitler" redirects to "Streets named after Adolf Hitler".

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:42 pm UTC

chris857 wrote:
LtPowers wrote:Tut tut, "Church of Jesus Christ Creator" is just a redirect, not an article.


And "Places named for Adolf Hitler" redirects to "Streets named after Adolf Hitler".

... which has the same meter, anyway.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:56 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
mathmannix wrote:I'm sure many of these don't work universally, based on differences in pronunciation.

Also, I always want to pronounce "Gloucester" as glau-CHESS-ter, which obviously wouldn't work, but of course the title Duke of Glo[uce]ste[r] would work with the letters that England (and Massachusetts) forget.


Even worse, we here in MA have "Wuhster" aka Worcester, but we have "Dorchester" aka Dorchester. And pronounce "Trapelo Road" at your own risk.


In Cumbria, there's the village of Torpenhow, pronounced "Trepenna" (folk wisdom has it that there's a "Torpenhow Hill" somewhere since "Tor", "Pen", "How" and "Hill" all loosely mean the same thing in different historical British dialects)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

Only if you destress "named" to fit that meter.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:35 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Only if you destress "named" to fit that meter.

Yeah... sounds quite natural to me, but I can't really tell anymore.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pidgeot » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:36 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:
orthogon wrote:Clearly there is a feeling that each kana represents one syllable, so kimashita is four syllables, and yet the same word pronounced the same way would clearly be only three syllables in English (kimashta).


One kana represents one mora, not a syllable (except for small characters, where only っ/ッ add a mora, and the rest do not). Syllables don't really apply to Japanese; the mora is the basic unit of speech, unlike e.g. English.

Thanks, that's interesting. But this is exactly what I'm getting at: is a syllable, or isn't it, a thing? Surely it's either a thing in both English and Japanese, or in neither? After all there are utterances that lie in the intersection of English and Japanese phonology: what happens to the syllables when the Japanese speaker utters it?


Note: I am not a linguist, so this may be a simplified and/or partially incorrect understanding of things.

A syllable is essentially the basic unit of speech: sequences of sound that you use to build the language. Each syllable is a unit because if you tried to break the sequence, you get something that sounds very different.

A mora, on the other hand, is more about timing; it is a sequence of sound that takes a certain amount of time to say. Syllables contain one or more morae.

From a linguistic perspective, syllables are of course a thing, for any language. As an example, Tokyo (とうきょう) is two syllables (tō-kyō), but four morae (to-o-kyo-o)*. Because you're continuing the vowel, you can't break it up without getting a very different sound.

That's certainly something you can look at and study in Japanese, but it's generally not really a very meaningful thing to do, because it is based on a lower level than syllables - morae.

*This is a representation of sounds, not a transliteration. In Japanese, "u" following an -o sound extends the o.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:44 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Only if you destress "named" to fit that meter.

Yeah... sounds quite natural to me, but I can't really tell anymore.

If I saw that sentence in isolation, the content words "streets", "named", and "Adolf Hitler" would be stressed, whereas the preposition "after" wouldn't.

There's nothing wrong with destressing "named" and stressing "after", but it doesn't sound especially natural out of context, even if it does in the context of a whole bunch of trochees.

Pidgeot wrote:That's certainly something you can look at and study in Japanese, but it's generally not really a very meaningful thing to do, because it is based on a lower level than syllables - morae.
Not meaningful unless you're looking at the timing, which is a pretty useful thing to do in things like poetry. (Traditional haiku don't have 17 syllables, they have 17 morae, for example.)
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby HES » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:12 pm UTC

Pidgeot wrote:As an example, Tokyo (とうきょう) is two syllables (tō-kyō), but four morae (to-o-kyo-o)*. Because you're continuing the vowel, you can't break it up without getting a very different sound.

So when I pronounce it To-ky-o, is that morae or syllables?
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby brenok » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:18 pm UTC

HES wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:As an example, Tokyo (とうきょう) is two syllables (tō-kyō), but four morae (to-o-kyo-o)*. Because you're continuing the vowel, you can't break it up without getting a very different sound.

So when I pronounce it to-ky-o, is that morae or syllables?

I'm having difficulty imagining how you'd pronounce that. What precisely do you mean by "to-ky-o"? Toh-KEE-oh? Toh-kee-OH? Tok-AYE-oh?

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby HES » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:22 pm UTC

brenok wrote:Toh-KEE-oh
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Mikeski » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:27 pm UTC

HES wrote:
brenok wrote:Toh-KEE-oh

...as heard at 1:12 or so here. Anglophones pretty much all slaughter the pronunciation of Tokyo.

Though not as badly as we slaughter karaoke. How we got "kair-ee-oh-kee" from "ka-ra'ow-keh" I'll never understand.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pidgeot » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:51 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:That's certainly something you can look at and study in Japanese, but it's generally not really a very meaningful thing to do, because it is based on a lower level than syllables - morae.
Not meaningful unless you're looking at the timing, which is a pretty useful thing to do in things like poetry. (Traditional haiku don't have 17 syllables, they have 17 morae, for example.)


That was my point; traditional syllables is a term that doesn't really make sense for Japanese, therefore it makes much more sense to just consider the morae. Reading my post again, that probably wasn't very clear.

HES wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:As an example, Tokyo (とうきょう) is two syllables (tō-kyō), but four morae (to-o-kyo-o)*. Because you're continuing the vowel, you can't break it up without getting a very different sound.

So when I pronounce it To-ky-o, is that morae or syllables?

Both; 3 syllables of 1 mora. (As far as I can tell; again, I'm not a linguist.) I'm talking about the Japanese pronunciation, though, and yours is the English one.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pidgeot » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:51 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:That's certainly something you can look at and study in Japanese, but it's generally not really a very meaningful thing to do, because it is based on a lower level than syllables - morae.
Not meaningful unless you're looking at the timing, which is a pretty useful thing to do in things like poetry. (Traditional haiku don't have 17 syllables, they have 17 morae, for example.)


That was my point; traditional syllables is a term that doesn't really make sense for Japanese, therefore it makes little sense to study it. Reading my post again, that probably wasn't very clear.

HES wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:As an example, Tokyo (とうきょう) is two syllables (tō-kyō), but four morae (to-o-kyo-o)*. Because you're continuing the vowel, you can't break it up without getting a very different sound.

So when I pronounce it To-ky-o, is that morae or syllables?

Both; 3 syllables of 1 mora. (As far as I can tell; again, I'm not a linguist.) I'm talking about the Japanese pronunciation, though, and yours is the English one.
Last edited by Pidgeot on Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:21 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:05 am UTC

I just realized that I (a native English speaker) apparently don't pronounce Tokyo the way my fellow native English speakers do. "To-kee-oh" sounds as weird as if "go blow" were pronounce "go bul-oh". Do people also say "Kee-oh-toh" instead of "Kyo-to"?
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Istaro » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:12 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:Anglophones pretty much all slaughter the pronunciation of Tokyo.

Which takes us back to my original point—how could it possibly be the case that "Anglophones pretty much all slaughter the pronunciation of Tokyo" (assuming we're talking about "in English")? The way that Anglophones pronounce Tokyo in English, i.e. "TOH-kyo" or "TOH-kee-oh" (with Deep Purple's "toh-KEE-oh" being an exception for lyrical purposes), is by definition the way Tokyo is pronounced in English. Sure, the Japanese word "東京" is pronounced differently from the English word "Tokyo", but that's to be expected, seeing as how they're different words in different languages, and it's no different from the way the Japanese words "オレンジ" and "シカゴ" are pronounced differently from the English words "orange" and "Chicago", respectively.

After all, when speaking English to monolingual Anglophones, to avoid sounding like a douche, you wouldn't suddenly throw a foreign word into the middle of an English sentence, e.g. "so I went to 東京 last week" or "pass me that オレンジ, would you?", unless the other language is itself an actual topic of the conversation.

Pidgeot wrote:From a linguistic perspective, syllables are of course a thing, for any language. As an example, Tokyo (とうきょう) is two syllables (tō-kyō), but four morae (to-o-kyo-o)*. Because you're continuing the vowel, you can't break it up without getting a very different sound.

I agree completely. But then I got to wondering: how can the postulate that

Pidgeot wrote:Syllables contain one or more morae.

be rectified with orthogon's "来ました" (Hepburn: "kimashita") example? It's four morae, but most often pronounced as three syllables, yeah? So I'd say that syllables are a real thing in just about every human language, and morae are a real thing in some, including Japanese, but both n-to-1 and 1-to-n correspondences are possible between the two.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:16 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I just realized that I (a native English speaker) apparently don't pronounce Tokyo the way my fellow native English speakers do. "To-kee-oh" sounds as weird as if "go blow" were pronounce "go bul-oh". Do people also say "Kee-oh-toh" instead of "Kyo-to"?


"Kee-oh-toh" is the way I've always heard. The second pronunciation still sounds like three syllables when I say it. I have to pause and think before speaking in order to make "kyo" one syllable.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:34 am UTC

Pidgeot wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:That's certainly something you can look at and study in Japanese, but it's generally not really a very meaningful thing to do, because it is based on a lower level than syllables - morae.
Not meaningful unless you're looking at the timing, which is a pretty useful thing to do in things like poetry. (Traditional haiku don't have 17 syllables, they have 17 morae, for example.)

That was my point; traditional syllables is a term that doesn't really make sense for Japanese, therefore it makes much more sense to just consider the morae. Reading my post again, that probably wasn't very clear.
Ah right, gotcha. I misunderstood what the last "it" referred to.

Istaro wrote:After all, when speaking English to monolingual Anglophones, to avoid sounding like a douche, you wouldn't suddenly throw a foreign word into the middle of an English sentence, e.g. "so I went to 東京 last week" or "pass me that オレンジ, would you?", unless the other language is itself an actual topic of the conversation.
Yeah, pretty much. It actually bothers me almost as much when complete gringos make a point of pronouncing "Latino" as a Spanish word in the middle of an otherwise entirely English conversation with other Anglophones as it does to hear those same gringos completely butcher the pronunciation of Spanish words in a Spanish conversation.

I think it sticks out more for people in words like "Tokyo", that are direct Romanizations of the Japanese word, than for words like "Moscow", which have obviously been different in English than in their original languages for centuries already.


Istaro wrote:
Pidgeot wrote:From a linguistic perspective, syllables are of course a thing, for any language. As an example, Tokyo (とうきょう) is two syllables (tō-kyō), but four morae (to-o-kyo-o)*. Because you're continuing the vowel, you can't break it up without getting a very different sound.

I agree completely. But then I got to wondering: how can the postulate that

Pidgeot wrote:Syllables contain one or more morae.

be rectified with orthogon's "来ました" (Hepburn: "kimashita") example? It's four morae, but most often pronounced as three syllables, yeah? So I'd say that syllables are a real thing in just about every human language, and morae are a real thing in some, including Japanese, but both n-to-1 and 1-to-n correspondences are possible between the two.
What's to rectify?

As I see it, 4 morae in 3 syllables means each syllable includes one or 2 morae, as Pidgeot said.

The times when one mora is pronounced as multiple syllables as in "kyo", the pronunciation is actually different in the two cases. Are there morae that, within Japanese, are pronounced with more than one syllable?
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby mekily » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:48 am UTC

All of these work perfectly to the tune of the fast part of Weird Al's "Hardware Store".

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:51 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:Though not as badly as we slaughter karaoke. How we got "kair-ee-oh-kee" from "ka-ra'ow-keh" I'll never understand.
It's the same way we get the intrusive-y pronunciations of Naomi and dais, presumably. Vowels as two syllables don't really happen much in English without an intrusive y, w, or r (in non-rhotic accents), and I guess the y took over the /a/ in karaoke completely, instead of merely changing it to the long-i it gets in other words.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Istaro » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:03 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:What's to rectify?

As I see it, 4 morae in 3 syllables means each syllable includes one or 2 morae, as Pidgeot said.

The times when one mora is pronounced as multiple syllables as in "kyo", the pronunciation is actually different in the two cases. Are there morae that, within Japanese, are pronounced with more than one syllable?


. . .

Whoops, that was a complete brain fart on my part. Never mind the second half of my previous post!

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Mikeski » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:04 am UTC

Istaro wrote:
Mikeski wrote:Anglophones pretty much all slaughter the pronunciation of Tokyo.

Which takes us back to my original point—how could it possibly be the case that "Anglophones pretty much all slaughter the pronunciation of Tokyo" (assuming we're talking about "in English")? The way that Anglophones pronounce Tokyo in English, i.e. "TOH-kyo" or "TOH-kee-oh" (with Deep Purple's "toh-KEE-oh" being an exception for lyrical purposes), is by definition the way Tokyo is pronounced in English.

Eh, I guess I just find it goofy when proper names are mispronounced. At least as long as the phonemes exist in English... I guess I don't expect people to get things like tones and rolled R's correct.

I'm an engineer; half the people I deal with on a daily basis have non-Anglo names. So it grates on me when people continually mispronounce them. Like a Japanese co-worker of mine with a -suke given name, that far too many people pronounce to rhyme with "cookie". Is that Daisuke/"Dice-K" baseball player not famous enough to get people to pronounce it right? :roll:

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:25 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:Eh, I guess I just find it goofy when proper names are mispronounced. At least as long as the phonemes exist in English...
So do "Moscow" and "Rome" bother you as much as "Tokyo"?
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Mikeski » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:41 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Mikeski wrote:Eh, I guess I just find it goofy when proper names are mispronounced. At least as long as the phonemes exist in English...
So do "Moscow" and "Rome" bother you as much as "Tokyo"?

Tokyo's only "worse" because we manage to spell Tokyo the way it should be pronounced, and then fail to pronounce it that way. We pronounce Rome and Moscow like we spell them, at least. I have seen Tokyo spelled "Tokio", which would make the pronunciation make sense...

I also live a short drive from New Prague. Whose original Czech settlers could probably pronounce both Prague and Praha correctly.

For some reason, New Prague, MN, is pronounced to rhyme with "plague". :|

English is weird.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby zombie_monkey » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:52 am UTC

This is the first time I've heard of 'The Purple People Eater'.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:09 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:we manage to spell Tokyo the way it should be pronounced
Yeah but we arguably also spell it the way toe-key-yo should be pronounced. (Consider for example the number of syllables in "embryo" and "Wyoming".)
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Mikeski
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Mikeski » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:17 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Mikeski wrote:we manage to spell Tokyo the way it should be pronounced
Yeah but we arguably also spell it the way toe-key-yo should be pronounced. (Consider for example the number of syllables in "embryo" and "Wyoming".)

Also valid for tock-yo, I suppose.

Curse our many-to-many pronunciations-to-spellings system! :)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby RogueCynic » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:53 am UTC

dash wrote:This one was pretty good.

Many years ago I came up with the hack of singing the A,B, C song to whatever tune I liked, since I can never remember the words.

Try it! For example, sing the ABC's to the tune of My Darling Clementine. It gets to be fun. Great to do with little kids.


A,B,C,D,E,F,G
all the rest are beyond me
When you play an instrument
The other letters make no sense
A,B,C,D,E,F,G
All the rest are beyond me.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:00 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:Eh, I guess I just find it goofy when proper names are mispronounced. [...] Like a Japanese co-worker of mine with a -suke given name, that far too many people pronounce to rhyme with "cookie".

That drives me nuts too. I had a housemate many years ago named Zhang Xiaohua, or as we'd write it in the west, Xiaohua Zhang, who everyone called Jon because Zhang = Jon to the American ear I guess? He was introduced to me as "Jon" and I called him that until I first saw mail addressed to his proper name arrive and I asked (since he was the only Chinese person in the house) if he was Xiaohua… and he was kind of shocked that I could actually pronounce his name. Guess he just gave up and rolled with "Jon"?

(The Zhang => Jon thing always reminded me of the Chon Wang => John Wayne gag from Shanghai Noon, though).
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby chris857 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:16 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Mikeski wrote:Eh, I guess I just find it goofy when proper names are mispronounced. [...] Like a Japanese co-worker of mine with a -suke given name, that far too many people pronounce to rhyme with "cookie".

That drives me nuts too. I had a housemate many years ago named Zhang Xiaohua, or as we'd write it in the west, Xiaohua Zhang, who everyone called Jon because Zhang = Jon to the American ear I guess? He was introduced to me as "Jon" and I called him that until I first saw mail addressed to his proper name arrive and I asked (since he was the only Chinese person in the house) if he was Xiaohua… and he was kind of shocked that I could actually pronounce his name. Guess he just gave up and rolled with "Jon"?

(The Zhang => Jon thing always reminded me of the Chon Wang => John Wayne gag from Shanghai Noon, though).


I too have a problem with people pronouncing my last name, which happens to be Scottish in origin (so even British Isles names are spared no mercy). With out giving it away, it is [A-Z]oi[a-z]. It rhymes with "void" and is monosyllabic. Doesn't stop people from pronouncing it with two syllables like [A-Z]long-o, i[A-Z]. (I live in US, by the way).

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby jackal » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:54 am UTC

Philbert wrote:
almafuerte wrote:I couldn't make "San Diego City Council" fit, until I realized English speakers can't pronounce "Diego" properly. It's Die-go, not Di-e-go.


You make it seem like it should be "Dye-Go" while it would be closer to "Jay-go", I think? (I'm not a Spanish speaker)

Are Americans beholden to stick to the original Spanish pronunciation in their own country? Look at what they did to "New Orleans".
It so happens that the city of New York is full of names with a Dutch origin, that are so mangled that most Dutch people do not recognize them as such anymore.

Although I'm a fan of retaining the native place name (at least where possible, given phonetic abilities--like rendering München in English as "Myoon-chen" instead of Munich), it's not as if Spanish speakers can claim superiority on this. Yeah, we ruin Diego as "Dee-yay-go" and Buenos Aires as "Bway-nos Air-ees," but ask a Spanish speaker what the largest city in the US is and it's not New York but rather "Nueva York," and the capital of the UK isn't London, it's "Londres." (?!)

So I'm not so sure los hispanohablantes can claim the moral high ground on this issue.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby PayasYouDraw » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:36 am UTC

The one I found didn't quite fit was Royal Flying Doctor Service, as in my dialect Royal is really only one syllable. I had to stretch it out to ro-yal (or possibly, Roy Al) to make it fit the song.

almafuerte wrote:I couldn't make "San Diego City Council" fit, until I realized English speakers can't pronounce "Diego" properly. It's Die-go, not Di-e-go.


It works for me. Spanish has different dialects too, and in my most local one, it isn't a stretch to have three syllables in it, "Di-e-go".
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Rossegacebes » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:45 am UTC

jackal wrote:
Philbert wrote:
almafuerte wrote:I couldn't make "San Diego City Council" fit, until I realized English speakers can't pronounce "Diego" properly. It's Die-go, not Di-e-go.


You make it seem like it should be "Dye-Go" while it would be closer to "Jay-go", I think? (I'm not a Spanish speaker)

Are Americans beholden to stick to the original Spanish pronunciation in their own country? Look at what they did to "New Orleans".
It so happens that the city of New York is full of names with a Dutch origin, that are so mangled that most Dutch people do not recognize them as such anymore.

Although I'm a fan of retaining the native place name (at least where possible, given phonetic abilities--like rendering München in English as "Myoon-chen" instead of Munich), it's not as if Spanish speakers can claim superiority on this. Yeah, we ruin Diego as "Dee-yay-go" and Buenos Aires as "Bway-nos Air-ees," but ask a Spanish speaker what the largest city in the US is and it's not New York but rather "Nueva York," and the capital of the UK isn't London, it's "Londres." (?!)

So I'm not so sure los hispanohablantes can claim the moral high ground on this issue.


"Nueva York" is not a mis-pronounciation, it's a translation; the same treatment that English do to Nouvelle Orléans... And London is Londres in Latin languages (Londra in Italian, Londres in French/Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan) since always (XII century: Geoffrey of Monmouth mentions "Lundres").


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