1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Znirk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:57 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It actually bothers me almost as much when complete gringos make a point of pronouncing "Latino" as a Spanish word in the middle of an otherwise entirely English conversation with other Anglophones as it does to hear those same gringos completely butcher the pronunciation of Spanish words in a Spanish conversation.


I'm confused ... how would you expect them to anglicise latino? /'ɫætnəʊ/?

(native German speaker, reasonably fluent in English and Spanish)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:32 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Mikeski wrote:Eh, I guess I just find it goofy when proper names are mispronounced. [...] Like a Japanese co-worker of mine with a -suke given name, that far too many people pronounce to rhyme with "cookie".

That drives me nuts too. I had a housemate many years ago named Zhang Xiaohua, or as we'd write it in the west, Xiaohua Zhang, who everyone called Jon because Zhang = Jon to the American ear I guess? He was introduced to me as "Jon" and I called him that until I first saw mail addressed to his proper name arrive and I asked (since he was the only Chinese person in the house) if he was Xiaohua… and he was kind of shocked that I could actually pronounce his name. Guess he just gave up and rolled with "Jon"?

(The Zhang => Jon thing always reminded me of the Chon Wang => John Wayne gag from Shanghai Noon, though).

All the younger Chinese and Taiwanese people I know have an "English name", which I think they chose fairly early at school. It doesn't in general have any similarity to their "Chinese name", it's just a name they liked the sound of or had an association with an American movie or TV programme they liked. I have a friend called Zhenfen, whose English name is completely unrelated; another friend suggested she could call herself "Jen", which works in English and isn't too far from "Zhen" in pronunciation. But she'd chosen her English name because she liked it, and strongly identifies with it - it is in fact her name, and to start using a different English name now would be to change her name. And I have a colleague who I started introducing by his Chinese name, feeling all internationalist, upon which he made it clear that he'd rather be called "Sean". (There's also an interesting area for social/psychological research: I get the impression that for some people the two names relate to slightly different identities: the westerner and the Chinese/Taiwanese person).

My feeling is that foreign names ought to be rendered as the closest approximation to the native pronunciation that is allowed by the phonology of the host language. But this will inevitably lead to imperfections; those of us who have a smattering of other languages may feel a scornful superiority when somebody gets a name wrong that belongs to a language we are familiar with, but we'll all screw up in ways we aren't even aware of when we have to attempt a name from Azerbaijani, Quechua or Zulu. Distinctions of phonology that aren't really important in the host language are liable to be overlooked, so we'll use single-syllable diphthongs and multiple vowel syllables interchangeably, replace unaspirated with aspirated and retroflex with normal consonants in South Asian languages, and of course tone in far eastern languages will go out of the window (seriously, even if you can do them, suddenly going tonal in the middle of an English sentence is going to sound ridiculous and potentially offensive). This may be an argument for using essentially different words (like Munich) or even completely unrelated proper names as in the Chinese people's "English names".
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby da Doctah » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:18 am UTC

zombie_monkey wrote:This is the first time I've heard of 'The Purple People Eater'.


It was the number one song the week I was conceived. (Mom? Dad? You're weird!)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:01 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:
HES wrote:
brenok wrote:Toh-KEE-oh

...as heard at 1:12 or so here. Anglophones pretty much all slaughter the pronunciation of Tokyo.

Though not as badly as we slaughter karaoke. How we got "kair-ee-oh-kee" from "ka-ra'ow-keh" I'll never understand.


We're only returning the favour, though, since the "oke" part comes from orchestra, but for some reason the double vowel 'ou', which is a good approximation to the "or" of "orchestra" in a non-rhotic accent, was shortened to a single vowel. And it's not that hard to understand: both the a'o and the final -e are completely alien to English. They were always going to be distorted; the only question was how.

Depending on exactly where oop north HES is from, and how strong his/her accent is, his/her pronunciation of Tokyo might actually be closer than most to the Japanese pronunciation, at least as far as the vowels are concerned.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby HES » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:18 am UTC

orthogon wrote:Depending on exactly where oop north HES is from, and how strong his/her accent is, his/her pronunciation of Tokyo might actually be closer than most to the Japanese pronunciation, at least as far as the vowels are concerned.

He's a southerner, actually.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby PayasYouDraw » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:23 am UTC

Japanese speakers are in no position to criticise, given the butchering they do on English words to adapt them to Japanese, especially when the letters L and R are involved.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:27 am UTC

Znirk wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:It actually bothers me almost as much when complete gringos make a point of pronouncing "Latino" as a Spanish word in the middle of an otherwise entirely English conversation with other Anglophones as it does to hear those same gringos completely butcher the pronunciation of Spanish words in a Spanish conversation.


I'm confused ... how would you expect them to anglicise latino? /'ɫætnəʊ/?

(native German speaker, reasonably fluent in English and Spanish)
Make the unstressed 'a' a schwa, aspirate the 't', end with the usual English long-o diphthong. It's not a radical change, by any means, but it is still an easily noticeable difference in most English accents.

Rossegacebes wrote:
jackal wrote:
Philbert wrote:
almafuerte wrote:I couldn't make "San Diego City Council" fit, until I realized English speakers can't pronounce "Diego" properly. It's Die-go, not Di-e-go.


You make it seem like it should be "Dye-Go" while it would be closer to "Jay-go", I think? (I'm not a Spanish speaker)

Are Americans beholden to stick to the original Spanish pronunciation in their own country? Look at what they did to "New Orleans".
It so happens that the city of New York is full of names with a Dutch origin, that are so mangled that most Dutch people do not recognize them as such anymore.

Although I'm a fan of retaining the native place name (at least where possible, given phonetic abilities--like rendering München in English as "Myoon-chen" instead of Munich), it's not as if Spanish speakers can claim superiority on this. Yeah, we ruin Diego as "Dee-yay-go" and Buenos Aires as "Bway-nos Air-ees," but ask a Spanish speaker what the largest city in the US is and it's not New York but rather "Nueva York," and the capital of the UK isn't London, it's "Londres." (?!)

So I'm not so sure los hispanohablantes can claim the moral high ground on this issue.


"Nueva York" is not a mis-pronounciation, it's a translation; the same treatment that English do to Nouvelle Orléans... And London is Londres in Latin languages (Londra in Italian, Londres in French/Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan) since always (XII century: Geoffrey of Monmouth mentions "Lundres").
Obviously not "since always", given that Latin itself called it Londinium.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:19 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Znirk wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:It actually bothers me almost as much when complete gringos make a point of pronouncing "Latino" as a Spanish word in the middle of an otherwise entirely English conversation with other Anglophones as it does to hear those same gringos completely butcher the pronunciation of Spanish words in a Spanish conversation.


I'm confused ... how would you expect them to anglicise latino? /'ɫætnəʊ/?

(native German speaker, reasonably fluent in English and Spanish)
Make the unstressed 'a' a schwa, aspirate the 't', end with the usual English long-o diphthong. It's not a radical change, by any means, but it is still an easily noticeable difference in most English accents.

Can't using an unnatural pronunciation like this function as a verbal equivalent of the use of italics in writing to indicate a foreign word that has not been completely naturalised? It's a warning to the listener that they need to widen the search space in order to decode the word.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby mathmannix » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:25 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Mikeski wrote:Eh, I guess I just find it goofy when proper names are mispronounced. At least as long as the phonemes exist in English...
So do "Moscow" and "Rome" bother you as much as "Tokyo"?

Tokyo's only "worse" because we manage to spell Tokyo the way it should be pronounced, and then fail to pronounce it that way. We pronounce Rome and Moscow like we spell them, at least. I have seen Tokyo spelled "Tokio", which would make the pronunciation make sense...

I also live a short drive from New Prague. Whose original Czech settlers could probably pronounce both Prague and Praha correctly.

For some reason, New Prague, MN, is pronounced to rhyme with "plague". :|

English is weird.


Yes, but some Americans pronounce Moscow as "moss-koh", rather than the correct[citation needed] Americanization of "ma's cow" (which is how Moscow, Idaho is pronounced - it doesn't rhyme with its state.)

American namesake cities do not have to have the same pronunciation as their sources - like Nevada, Ohio (neh-VAY-dah) or Notre Dame, Indiana (NO-ter dame, like it looks).
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby zukenft » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:18 pm UTC

going back to topic: randall should've made another turtles logo with power rangers on it. confuses people up :D

go go ninja turtles, teenage mutant ninja turtleeeessss

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Rossegacebes » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:26 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Rossegacebes wrote:
jackal wrote:
Although I'm a fan of retaining the native place name (at least where possible, given phonetic abilities--like rendering München in English as "Myoon-chen" instead of Munich), it's not as if Spanish speakers can claim superiority on this. Yeah, we ruin Diego as "Dee-yay-go" and Buenos Aires as "Bway-nos Air-ees," but ask a Spanish speaker what the largest city in the US is and it's not New York but rather "Nueva York," and the capital of the UK isn't London, it's "Londres." (?!)

So I'm not so sure los hispanohablantes can claim the moral high ground on this issue.


"Nueva York" is not a mis-pronounciation, it's a translation; the same treatment that English do to Nouvelle Orléans... And London is Londres in Latin languages (Londra in Italian, Londres in French/Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan) since always (XII century: Geoffrey of Monmouth mentions "Lundres").
Obviously not "since always", given that Latin itself called it Londinium.


I meant since those languages were such. Modern Latin languages (OK: Romance languages) diverged from low Latin and consolidated around the X century, give or take a couple of hundreds of years. The oldest mentions of London appear to be "Londres".

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby HES » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:28 pm UTC

zukenft wrote:going back to topic: randall should've made another turtles logo with power rangers on it. confuses people up :D

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:44 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:Yes, but some Americans pronounce Moscow as "moss-koh", rather than the correct[citation needed] Americanization of "ma's cow" (which is how Moscow, Idaho is pronounced - it doesn't rhyme with its state.)


Anecdotally, "moss-koh" is the pronunciation people in Australia seem to use.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:58 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Znirk wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:It actually bothers me almost as much when complete gringos make a point of pronouncing "Latino" as a Spanish word in the middle of an otherwise entirely English conversation with other Anglophones as it does to hear those same gringos completely butcher the pronunciation of Spanish words in a Spanish conversation.


I'm confused ... how would you expect them to anglicise latino? /'ɫætnəʊ/?

(native German speaker, reasonably fluent in English and Spanish)
Make the unstressed 'a' a schwa, aspirate the 't', end with the usual English long-o diphthong. It's not a radical change, by any means, but it is still an easily noticeable difference in most English accents.

Can't using an unnatural pronunciation like this function as a verbal equivalent of the use of italics in writing to indicate a foreign word that has not been completely naturalised? It's a warning to the listener that they need to widen the search space in order to decode the word.

That logic might work for words that aren't solidly within the English lexicon, but "Latino" isn't one of them.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pidgeot » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:10 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:All the younger Chinese and Taiwanese people I know have an "English name", which I think they chose fairly early at school.


Anecdotally, I can say it isn't completely universal; I recently had two Chinese colleagues, both in their 20s, and everyone referred to them by their Chinese name. They never made any indication that they wanted us to call them anything else; they always used that name about themselves as well. (Maybe they used an English name among friends at some earlier point in their life, but in that case, they had stopped using it before leaving for my country).

orthogon wrote:We're only returning the favour, though, since the "oke" part comes from orchestra, but for some reason the double vowel 'ou', which is a good approximation to the "or" of "orchestra" in a non-rhotic accent, was shortened to a single vowel.


Japanese likes to abbreviate things, and in my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience, they always drop long vowels to get more information in the two or three morae they use for the abbreviation (two morae seems to be preferred).

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby cellocgw » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:53 pm UTC

RogueCynic wrote:
dash wrote:This one was pretty good.

Many years ago I came up with the hack of singing the A,B, C song to whatever tune I liked, since I can never remember the words.

Try it! For example, sing the ABC's to the tune of My Darling Clementine. It gets to be fun. Great to do with little kids.


A,B,C,D,E,F,G
all the rest are beyond me
When you play an instrument
The other letters make no sense
A,B,C,D,E,F,G
All the rest are beyond me.


Just wait until you learn about the German "H" . (How else could Bach have written inventions based on his name? :D )
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:11 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:Yes, but some Americans pronounce Moscow as "moss-koh", rather than the correct[citation needed] Americanization of "ma's cow" (which is how Moscow, Idaho is pronounced - it doesn't rhyme with its state.)

Anecdotally, people who actually live in Moscow, Idaho, pronounce their city's name as moss-koh. So it does rhyme with the state.

Source: Half my family lives there.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_idaho
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Klear » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:20 pm UTC

I've been thinking of it, and American cities are pretty much the only ones we call the same as the people who live there, except for some oddities, I suppose.

Venezia (Venice) is "Benátky", Wien (Vienna) is Vídeň, Paris is "Paříž" (it looks similar, but the pronunciation is way different) etc. Asian city names are (probably) butchered even more. There hasn't been enough time for us to make up new names for the American cities though.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby PM 2Ring » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:37 pm UTC

doranchak wrote:This must be how Billy Joel came up with the lyrics for We Didn't Start The Fire...

Ayatollah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan,
"Wheel of Fortune", Sally Ride, heavy metal suicide,
Foreign debts, homeless vets, AIDS, crack, Bernie Goetz, Hypodermics on the shore, China's under martial law, Rock and roller cola wars, I can't take it anymore.


Perhaps. :)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Mirkwood » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:51 pm UTC

What bothers me is when foreign city names are adapted into a language with the same spelling, and the locals attempt the foreign pronunciation but are unable to do so due to their native language. It occurs most often when the offenders profess an understanding of a foreign language, but only a rudimentary on. For example, the Dutch pronounce "New" in "New York" much like the Dutch word "Nieuw"; the pronunciations are similar but not quite identical. It's like listening to an off-key instrument.

If you want to have lots of fun, try saying Aztec place names. You see, Nahuatl as a written language uses phonetic spelling--but as it sounded to 16th-century Spanish person.
Last edited by Mirkwood on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:59 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby freezeblade » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:54 pm UTC

More anecdotal evidence on the “San Diego is butchered” thing: I lived there for college, and we had a very large latino population, some of them living in Tijuana and coming up to the city during school hours. Their pronunciation of “San Diego” was nearly identical to how everyone else pronounced it. This corresponded with how it was said when I was taught Spanish as well. However, how much gringos butchered “Tijuana” is a whole different story.

Other California cities that have Spanish names don’t always keep this pattern up though, near my hometown is a city called San Luis Obispo, and the way you could spot a tourist a mile away is if they pronounced the second word as “Louie.” Drove me nuts every time.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:57 pm UTC

In case anyone is getting tired of the TNMT theme running through thwir heads, the following also by sheer fortuitous coincidence have the same stress pattern:

"Here's a llama there's a llama",
"And another little llama", and
"Fuzzy llama fluffy llama".
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby jackal » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:01 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:More anecdotal evidence on the “San Diego is butchered” thing: I lived there for college, and we had a very large latino population, some of them living in Tijuana and coming up to the city during school hours. Their pronunciation of “San Diego” was nearly identical to how everyone else pronounced it. This corresponded with how it was said when I was taught Spanish as well. However, how much gringos butchered “Tijuana” is a whole different story.

A lot of Americans seem to have an Aunt Wanna living somewhere south of San Diego. Could never figure that one out.

freezeblade wrote:Other California cities that have Spanish names don’t always keep this pattern up though, near my hometown is a city called San Luis Obispo, and the way you could spot a tourist a mile away is if they pronounced the second word as “Louie.” Drove me nuts every time.

Ditto!

I grew up in and near Paso Robles. I have to admit being slightly guilty in this changing-the-pronunciation thing, as I and every other local pronounced it "Pass o' Rubbles" (which loosely translates to "pass of small rocks" instead of "pass of the oaks"). Even native-bilingual Latino friends of mine pronounced it the same. I never once heard "Pahso Rrrroblays."

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Showsni » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:06 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
mathmannix wrote:I'm sure many of these don't work universally, based on differences in pronunciation.

Also, I always want to pronounce "Gloucester" as glau-CHESS-ter, which obviously wouldn't work, but of course the title Duke of Glo[uce]ste[r] would work with the letters that England (and Massachusetts) forget.


Even worse, we here in MA have "Wuhster" aka Worcester, but we have "Dorchester" aka Dorchester. And pronounce "Trapelo Road" at your own risk.


Apparently the Gloster Aircraft Company spelt its name wrong on purpose just so people would realise how it was supposed to be pronounced. Generally, British names with the h in chester pronounce it in full (Chester, Dorchester, Silchester) and ones without don't (Gloucester = Gloster, Worcester = Wooster)... But even then there are exceptions (Cirencester, for instance, has four syllables).

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby freezeblade » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:23 pm UTC

jackal wrote:I grew up in and near Paso Robles. I have to admit being slightly guilty in this changing-the-pronunciation thing, as I and every other local pronounced it "Pass o' Rubbles" (which loosely translates to "pass of small rocks" instead of "pass of the oaks"). Even native-bilingual Latino friends of mine pronounced it the same. I never once heard "Pahso Rrrroblays."

I lived right accross the mountins from you, Los Osos. I nearly used Paso Robles as an example, but I had never heard someone say it the way you would in spanish.

Another good example is the main drag in San Luis Obispo, Higuera St. The locals all pronounce it "high-gar-a" as opposed to the spanish pronounciation, "he-gar-rah" which I have only ever heard from tourists. I know that it's a spanish misson town and all, bit it really gets me.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:25 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:Other California cities that have Spanish names don’t always keep this pattern up though, near my hometown is a city called San Luis Obispo, and the way you could spot a tourist a mile away is if they pronounced the second word as “Louie.” Drove me nuts every time.

Or Lompoc = "lahm-pohk". Spot the tourists saying "lahm-pahk" or "lohm-pohk", even though the latter is etymologically more correct, being a Spanish transliteration of a Chumash (Amerindian) word.

Or in Santa Barbara is a street spelled San Roque, pronounced by all the locals as "sæn ROW-kee", even though it should be "sahn roh-KAY". (Or my dad, who believes he speaks Spanish, but insists that the name of the street is "san ROHK").

Or tourists who pronounce Goleta as "guh-LET-uh", which is in some ways closer to the etymologically correct "goh-LAY-tah", but all the locals say "goh-LEE-tuh".

Or Paso Robles, which is universally "pæ-soh roh-buls", instead of the correct Spanish "pah-soh rohb-lays".
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby jackal » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
jackal wrote:
freezeblade wrote:I grew up in and near Paso Robles. I have to admit being slightly guilty in this changing-the-pronunciation thing, as I and every other local pronounced it "Pass o' Rubbles" (which loosely translates to "pass of small rocks" instead of "pass of the oaks"). Even native-bilingual Latino friends of mine pronounced it the same. I never once heard "Pahso Rrrroblays."


I lived right accross the mountins from you, Los Osos. I nearly used Paso Robles as an example, but I had never heard someone say it the way you would in spanish.

Another good example is the main drag in San Luis Obispo, Higuera St. The locals all pronounce it "high-gar-a" as opposed to the spanish pronounciation, "he-gar-rah" which I have only ever heard from tourists. I know that it's a spanish misson town and all, bit it really gets me.

Yup! Same pet peeves here. Thanks for helping me relive my childhood. :)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:38 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Or in Santa Barbara is a street spelled San Roque, pronounced by all the locals as "sæn ROW-kee", even though it should be "sahn roh-KAY".
No, it shouldn't. No accent, ergo no stressed final vowel.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:53 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Or in Santa Barbara is a street spelled San Roque, pronounced by all the locals as "sæn ROW-kee", even though it should be "sahn roh-KAY".
No, it shouldn't. No accent, ergo no stressed final vowel.

Good point, but ignoring the stress issue, the rest is still a problem. That terminal "que" should not sound like "key", and that "san" should not be as in "sandwich".
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:56 pm UTC

A tangent off of a tangent, but I was surprised, when I started learning Spanish, to find that the accent marking stress is known as a tilde, whereas the squiggle known to nerds as a tilde may or may not have a name, because an "n" adorned with one is considered a separate letter ("enye").
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby da Doctah » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:16 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:A tangent off of a tangent, but I was surprised, when I started learning Spanish, to find that the accent marking stress is known as a tilde, whereas the squiggle known to nerds as a tilde may or may not have a name, because an "n" adorned with one is considered a separate letter ("enye").

Something that's never occurred to me before just now. Is tilde cognate with tittle?

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:21 pm UTC

Yes.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:50 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:A tangent off of a tangent, but I was surprised, when I started learning Spanish, to find that the accent marking stress is known as a tilde, whereas the squiggle known to nerds as a tilde may or may not have a name, because an "n" adorned with one is considered a separate letter ("enye").

My concise OED disagrees: a "tilde" is the accent "~" (including cases where it accents the n, forming an enye I guess), they even drew it out. I did learn today that it's "tilde" and not "tidle".

Wikipedia seems to say something similar but some of their sources were unavailable so I went with the dictionary option. Internet dictionaries also had similar definitions for "tilde".

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby San Fran Sam » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:18 am UTC

Introbulus wrote:
San Fran Sam wrote:well, goes to show how old I am. I have heard of the TMNT but am absolutely clueless as to what their theme song is.

On the other hand I can relate to this guy.

Colonel Bleep.jpg


And it's not as if you don't know who they are, if that avatar of yours is any indication (unless I'm totally mistaken, it's from the comic isn't it?)


I do know who they are but not all of their names. I absorbed that somehow.

Yes, my avatar is a spinoff of the comics. good catch. hadn't thought of that.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Klear » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:54 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:In case anyone is getting tired of the TNMT theme running through thwir heads, the following also by sheer fortuitous coincidence have the same stress pattern:

"Here's a llama there's a llama",
"And another little llama", and
"Fuzzy llama fluffy llama".


You MONSTER!

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Mirkwood » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:43 am UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:
orthogon wrote:A tangent off of a tangent, but I was surprised, when I started learning Spanish, to find that the accent marking stress is known as a tilde, whereas the squiggle known to nerds as a tilde may or may not have a name, because an "n" adorned with one is considered a separate letter ("enye").

My concise OED disagrees: a "tilde" is the accent "~" (including cases where it accents the n, forming an enye I guess), they even drew it out. I did learn today that it's "tilde" and not "tidle".

Wikipedia seems to say something similar but some of their sources were unavailable so I went with the dictionary option. Internet dictionaries also had similar definitions for "tilde".


The Collins English Dictionary, via Dictionary.com, suggests "swung dash" as a synonym for "tilde." However, the Free Online Dictionary (also via Dictionary.com) notes that the swung dash appears in the middle of a line, rather than at the top like a tilde. It also notes that ASCII does not contain a swung dash but does include a tilde, which is used to replace it.

This suggests to me that while "tilde" is an import originally referred only to the accent, the term now also includes the "swung dash," even if this might originally have been considered erroneous.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby brenok » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:46 am UTC

Mirkwood wrote:
PinkShinyRose wrote:
orthogon wrote:A tangent off of a tangent, but I was surprised, when I started learning Spanish, to find that the accent marking stress is known as a tilde, whereas the squiggle known to nerds as a tilde may or may not have a name, because an "n" adorned with one is considered a separate letter ("enye").

My concise OED disagrees: a "tilde" is the accent "~" (including cases where it accents the n, forming an enye I guess), they even drew it out. I did learn today that it's "tilde" and not "tidle".

Wikipedia seems to say something similar but some of their sources were unavailable so I went with the dictionary option. Internet dictionaries also had similar definitions for "tilde".


The Collins English Dictionary, via Dictionary.com, suggests "swung dash" as a synonym for "tilde." However, the Free Online Dictionary (also via Dictionary.com) notes that the swung dash appears in the middle of a line, rather than at the top like a tilde. It also notes that ASCII does not contain a swung dash but does include a tilde, which is used to replace it.

This suggests to me that while "tilde" is an import originally referred only to the accent, the term now also includes the "swung dash," even if this might originally have been considered erroneous.

Spanish Wikipedia says that in Spanish "tilde" is a generic term for anything above a letter, including, of course, the tilde (~).

Also, the English Wikipedia says that the name "tilde" comes from Spanish and Portuguese. In the latter, my native language, I can assure you that the word "tilde" (or, more accurately, its cognate "til") refers uniquely and exclusively to the tilde (~).

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby PayasYouDraw » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:31 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Or in Santa Barbara is a street spelled San Roque, pronounced by all the locals as "sæn ROW-kee", even though it should be "sahn roh-KAY". (Or my dad, who believes he speaks Spanish, but insists that the name of the street is "san ROHK").

Or tourists who pronounce Goleta as "guh-LET-uh", which is in some ways closer to the etymologically correct "goh-LAY-tah", but all the locals say "goh-LEE-tuh".

Or Paso Robles, which is universally "pæ-soh roh-buls", instead of the correct Spanish "pah-soh rohb-lays".[/



I live within minutes of the original San Roque, and it is most definitely "San RO-ke".

Incidentally, it's inhabitants still consider themselves the "real" Gibraltarians, even though they were kicked out 300 years ago. Get over it already!

The others are actually "Go-LET-a" and "PA-so ROB-less".

Edited for messing up the quotes.

Showsni wrote:

Apparently the Gloster Aircraft Company spelt its name wrong on purpose just so people would realise how it was supposed to be pronounced. Generally, British names with the h in chester pronounce it in full (Chester, Dorchester, Silchester) and ones without don't (Gloucester = Gloster, Worcester = Wooster)... But even then there are exceptions (Cirencester, for instance, has four syllables).


I think that one is true.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:47 am UTC

I meant only that the word "tilde" is used that way in Spanish or in reference to Spanish, not that anybody was wrong to call the ~ a tilde. In fact, "tilde" seems to be the word for it in Spanish too, but you never hear it used because there's rarely a need to refer to the diacritic in isolation. Presumably what happened is that Spanish developed the word to mean any mark above a letter; there was never an ambiguity since the stress marker only goes above vowels and the tilde as we know it only modifies the "n". The word was then borrowed into English and used to denote this quintessentially Spanish diacritic.

Another thing I find interesting is that the sound written "ñ" in Spanish is written "nh" in Portuguese and "gn" in French. (I have a feeling there's yet another language that writes it differently again.)

BTW I made a mistake: the letter is of course called "eñe", not "enye".
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby chrisjwmartin » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:06 am UTC

alanbbent wrote:And how many syllables is meow? (or miaow)

You would enjoy Joyce's Ulysses:
James Joyce wrote:-- Mkgnao!

-- O, there you are, Mr Bloom said, turning from the fire.

The cat mewed in answer and stalked again stiffly round a leg of the table, mewing. Just how she stalks over my writing-table. Prr. Scratch my head. Prr.

Mr Bloom watched curiously, kindly, the lithe black form. Clean to see: the gloss of her sleek hide, the white button under the butt of her tail, the green flashing eyes. He bent down to her, his hands on his knees.

-- Milk for the pussens, he said.

-- Mrkgnao! the cat cried.

They call them stupid. They understand what we say better than we understand them. She understands all she wants to. Vindictive too. Wonder what I look like to her. Height of a tower? No, she can jump me.

-- Afraid of the chickens she is, he said mockingly. Afraid of the chookchooks. I never saw such a stupid pussens as the pussens.

Cruel. Her nature. Curious mice never squeal. Seem to like it.

-- Mrkrgnao! the cat said loudly.

She blinked up out of her avid shameclosing eyes, mewing plaintively and long, showing him her milkwhite teeth. He watched the dark eyeslits narrowing with greed till her eyes were green stones. Then he went to the dresser, took the jug Hanlon's milkman had just filled for him, poured warmbubbled milk on a saucer and set it slowly on the floor.

-- Gurrhr! she cried, running to lap.


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