1479: "Troubleshooting"

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1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby chris857 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:18 am UTC

Image
alt: "Oh, you're using their Chrome APP, not their Chrome EXTENSION. They're very similar but one handles window creation differently." is a thing I hope I can stop saying soon.

Um, ctrl+insert and shift+insert work to copy and paste.

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da Doctah
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby da Doctah » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:01 am UTC

Why would you want to use ctrl+insert and shift+insert when the standard Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V are so convenient? I mean, to confirm that you weren't just talking about some alien Apple thing I had to go on safari just to find the insert key.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby phlip » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:06 am UTC

Another way to move offscreen windows into view: Hit alt+space to bring up the window menu (alt+minus if it's a window inside another window, MDI-style, though that isn't very popular these days), then pick "Move". Press any of the arrow keys on your keyboard to start actually moving the window, then you can move your mouse to move the window onto the screen (the reason you have to hit an arrow key first, and not just move your mouse immediately, is as arcane as it is stupid), then click to place the window and you can interact with it as you see fit.

... is information I wish I didn't have to know.

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby rhomboidal » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:17 am UTC

After years of working with multiple monitors, I've become a master of the blind click-and-drag off-screen window rescue. I'm THIS close to listing it in the skills section of my resume.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby savageorange » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:43 am UTC

Or just.. use a WM that doesn't permit this silly shit?

(of course, if the dialog's got the input focus, you can probably use Enter, Escape, (some number of <Tab>s) + Enter, Alt+O (Ok), or Alt+C (Cancel) to tell the dialog you have read and understood its unreadable message and it can go away now.)

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Tyrannosaur » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:15 am UTC

I haven't had to do it for a while, but at one point when I was troubleshooting a lot with multiple monitors that weren't working I got good at "feeling around" with the mouse on the non-existent second monitor to drag the window back...
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby sfmans » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:59 am UTC

Ctl-Shift-Esc for Task Manager, search and destroy.

I'm still feeling a little bit sad every time I realise that my extensive knowledge of twerking autoexec.bat and config.sys is probably never going to get used ever again ...

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby NotAllThere » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:36 am UTC

I use Windows-Left Arrow recovers lost Chrome windows.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Wooloomooloo » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:11 am UTC

sfmans wrote:Ctl-Shift-Esc for Task Manager, search and destroy.

I'm still feeling a little bit sad every time I realise that my extensive knowledge of twerking autoexec.bat and config.sys is probably never going to get used ever again ...

Well, this is one case where it's totally appropriate to say "I've forgotten more about optimizing memory for DOS games with QEMM than you'll EVER KNOW!", considering it's highly unlikely anyone will ever do that again, and I most certainly forgot all about it... On the other hand, nowadays you can probably convince anyone you're truly a powerful wizard just by deploying a folder / drive letter SUBST on the command line... :D

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby orthogon » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:18 am UTC

phlip wrote:Another way to move offscreen windows into view: Hit alt+space to bring up the window menu (alt+minus if it's a window inside another window, MDI-style, though that isn't very popular these days), then pick "Move". Press any of the arrow keys on your keyboard to start actually moving the window, then you can move your mouse to move the window onto the screen (the reason you have to hit an arrow key first, and not just move your mouse immediately, is as arcane as it is stupid), then click to place the window and you can interact with it as you see fit.

... is information I wish I didn't have to know.

This really is a MS classic. The bug has been around since the dawn of time, but in Win7 (or maybe Vista) they don't bother to fix it; nevertheless they do decide to get rid of the ability to get that menu by right-clicking on the taskbar. Seriously, Alt+Space? What the heck even is that? The special secret context menu? Why couldn't "move" be on the right-click menu somewhere near "close window"? I almost wish this happened more often so that I'd remember how to fix it, but it's just long enough between incidents that I have to go off to StackOverflow or (!) MSDN each time. (When I say bug, I mean the fact that windows can appear off screen at all, not the additional quirk of having to press an arrow key. And it doesn't just happen in complicated multi-monitor setups where it might take a microsecond or so to calculate whether the window is on the screen.).

sfmans wrote:Ctl-Shift-Esc for Task Manager, search and destroy.

Oh yeah, that too. I was really pleased when I found out about that, but the trouble is, it still waits until the CPU usage drops to 0% before launching. Why oh why can't it give the task manager priority? Why can't Ctrl-Alt-Delete make it stop what it's doing and tell you what's hogging the CPU/IO/whatever?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:27 am UTC

orthogon wrote:This really is a MS classic.

It wouldn't be a proper MS classic unless it was inherited by a few Linuxes and kept as a legacy feature. And here I am in Ubuntu Unity, and Alt+Space still brings up that damn menu, despite the newer dock not supporting it.

Edit: Right-click on the titlebar kept it in the new window decorator, though. That's something.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Killroy » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:09 am UTC

My method:
ALT+Space -> Open system menu
M -> Move window
Up/Down/Left/Right -> Initiate moving of window via keyboard. This attaches the window to the mouse cursor
Wiggle Mouse -> Bring window onto screen of choice.

Done :D

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby phlip » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:26 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:This really is a MS classic. The bug has been around since the dawn of time, but in Win7 (or maybe Vista) they don't bother to fix it; nevertheless they do decide to get rid of the ability to get that menu by right-clicking on the taskbar.

It's still there, you just need to right-click on the individual window... so if you have your Win7-or-later taskbar set up to group windows together, you need to mouseover the icon for the application, wait for the list if windows to pop up, and then right-click the individual window in there.

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby alvinhochun » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:44 pm UTC

Now that I think about it, my knowledge is definitely getting outdated with that Windows 8+ Metro sh-...tuff being actually out there.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:59 pm UTC

I want to stab the guy that invented the popup ads specifically for phones. I CAN'T CLICK X YOU JACKASS!

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby a9s » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:33 pm UTC

phlip wrote:Hit alt+space

You crashed my Chrome.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby cemper93 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:38 pm UTC

And here I am in Ubuntu Unity, and Alt+Space still brings up that damn menu, despite the newer dock not supporting it.

I like that menu, mostly for the Move to Another Workspace options. Also, it doesn't exhibit the bug it's alleged to on Windows (you can just move the mouse after selecting Move, and the window will follow).

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby RandomMarius » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:53 pm UTC

Press Alt-SPACE, then hit 'M' and use your cursor keys to move it back onscreen. Usually when it moves a single pixel it immediately clips it back onto your screen.

Edit: I see @Killroy was here before me...

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby slicedtoad » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:28 pm UTC

As a programmer, I always feel a certain level of responsibility for this kind of crap. I feel like apologising every time I fix some bug or explain some counter-intuitive bs UI.

Instead people look at me like I'm magic...

I can't freaking wait till we have AI capable of giving us decent computer interfaces that are both customizable and intuitive.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby vortighast » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:33 pm UTC

Using win+left/right/up arrow has greatly increased my multiple-monitor effectiveness.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:38 pm UTC

On a smaller desktop, there are sometimes valid reasons for wanting windows to overlap the edge of the screen, so keeping windows from getting lost off-screen isn't quite as simple as forcing everything to stay in bounds.

What annoys me are the games that insist on starting fullscreen at some tiny resolution (though I remember when 640*480 was standard...) even when you've set them to play windowed, and, after the splash screen they're perfectly happy to do so with no problems whatsoever - I forget which it was now, but there was one game where it took longer for Windows to change the resolution twice than the changed resolution lasted - and then a good ten minutes to put my desktop back into some sensible arrangement and restore my various windows to sensible dimensions...

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:52 pm UTC

da Doctah wrote:Why would you want to use ctrl+insert and shift+insert when the standard Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V are so convenient? I mean, to confirm that you weren't just talking about some alien Apple thing I had to go on safari just to find the insert key.

I see what you did there...

But meanwhile, us old-timers still can't use Ctrl-C without a brief instant of fear that we're about to terminate the whole app. Windows is like so totally out of step with every other OS in existence.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby orthogon » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:07 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:On a smaller desktop, there are sometimes valid reasons for wanting windows to overlap the edge of the screen, so keeping windows from getting lost off-screen isn't quite as simple as forcing everything to stay in bounds.

I agree, but there's "overlapping the edge of the screen" and there's "being completely off the screen" which I believe is what happens in the pathological case we're concerned with.

cellocgw wrote:But meanwhile, us old-timers still can't use Ctrl-C without a brief instant of fear that we're about to terminate the whole app. Windows is like so totally out of step with every other OS in existence.

What's strange is that I'll happily use Ctrl-C for "Copy" in Windows and within minutes use it as "interrupt" in Linux; until recently I hadn't even noticed they were the same key combination otherwise I would have felt that fear too.

What about Ctrl-Alt-Del? That used to instantly reboot the whole PC! Now it's like coughing politely and waiting for the OS to get round to asking what you want. It reflects who's in charge, I suppose. These days, as in Soviet Russia, Computer operates You.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby DewiMorgan » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:01 pm UTC

I am delighted and saddened that there are many others who know the focus-window, alt-space, cursor-key, mouse-wiggle shortcut to recover a lost window.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby SpitValve » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:09 pm UTC

He's basically talking about this issue: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/EverythingsBrokenAndNobodysUpset.aspx.

Our life is full of complex programs that don't quite work, and we have to memorise all these weird arcane tricks to get things to do what they're supposed to.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Kit. » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:58 pm UTC

...As if my non-computer knowledge were any different.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Heimhenge » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I want to stab the guy that invented the popup ads specifically for phones. I CAN'T CLICK X YOU JACKASS!

Bugs the hell outa me too ...especially those popup ads that block relevant text and follow you when you try to scroll down. I've found that many times, but not always, simply refreshing the page makes them go away. Must be a cookie-based thing?

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby HES » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:09 pm UTC

I've found that Adaway makes them go away.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby CBusAlex » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:26 pm UTC

vortighast wrote:Using win+left/right/up arrow has greatly increased my multiple-monitor effectiveness.


This also lets you dock windows onto the right side of the left monitor, which is not possible with the click-and-drag-to-the-edge-of-the-screen method. Neat!

Oh, and if the window happens to be maximized offscreen, Alt+Space+M doesn't work. You need Alt+Space+R+Alt+Space+M+arrow+mouse. Simple, right?

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby AndrewGPaul » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:33 pm UTC

Thank you, phlip. I've been unable to run the Microsoft Office photo editor on my office PC in anything other than full-screen mode for months. My other workaround was to edit the registry (somewhere in there is a field which gives the screen coordinates for the top-left corner and the width and height of the window), but someone noticed my PC wasn't "properly" locked down, and now I can't do that.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Ken_g6 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:57 pm UTC

alvinhochun wrote:Now that I think about it, my knowledge is definitely getting outdated with that Windows 8+ Metro sh-...tuff being actually out there.

My Windows knowledge has been getting outdated since I went from WinXP to Linux when I built this computer in 2009. I'll probably upgrade my laptop from Win7 to Win10, though, so maybe I can keep up a little.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Envelope Generator » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:10 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:On a smaller desktop, there are sometimes valid reasons for wanting windows to overlap the edge of the screen, so keeping windows from getting lost off-screen isn't quite as simple as forcing everything to stay in bounds.

I agree, but there's "overlapping the edge of the screen" and there's "being completely off the screen" which I believe is what happens in the pathological case we're concerned with.

cellocgw wrote:But meanwhile, us old-timers still can't use Ctrl-C without a brief instant of fear that we're about to terminate the whole app. Windows is like so totally out of step with every other OS in existence.

What's strange is that I'll happily use Ctrl-C for "Copy" in Windows and within minutes use it as "interrupt" in Linux; until recently I hadn't even noticed they were the same key combination otherwise I would have felt that fear too.


Ditto, except for "until recently" read "until I read the above". The little code-switching adaptations that enable people to use different operating systems without cognitive dissonance would make a fascinating topic in its own right. After getting into Linux I eventually learned to always put a space after "cd" in Windows too ("cd.." with no space was perfectly valid syntax dating back to DOS, but not valid in Linux) so that when I type a cd command I wouldn't have to think whether I'm in a Linux or Windows commandline.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Coyoty » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:35 pm UTC

I'll be happy not to have to minimize a foreground window to find a hiding window that should be in the foreground. Or have to remember to.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby jonawebb » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:47 pm UTC

Arcane computer knowledge only multiplies. It's enormously useful to know what kind of words to include in Google search, how to use quotes and -. And I'm getting to know the Android voice search, gradually. Siri has her foibles.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Locoluis » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:12 pm UTC

  • Bleeding edge - e.g.: Vivaldi
  • Current - e.g.: Android, IE11, Unicode, HTML5 (was bleeding edge before October 2014)
  • Dated but still important to know - e.g.: Windows XP, IE6
  • Stupid - e.g.: MS-DOS tricks, C trigraphs, National variants of ISO-646
  • Obsolete - e.g.: Punched cards, PDP assembler, WML
Last edited by Locoluis on Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Kit. » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:21 pm UTC

Locoluis wrote:Obsolete - e.g.: ... PDP assembler

014747 is eternal.

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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Dthen » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:02 pm UTC

CBusAlex wrote:
vortighast wrote:Using win+left/right/up arrow has greatly increased my multiple-monitor effectiveness.


This also lets you dock windows onto the right side of the left monitor, which is not possible with the click-and-drag-to-the-edge-of-the-screen method. Neat!

Oh, and if the window happens to be maximized offscreen, Alt+Space+M doesn't work. You need Alt+Space+R+Alt+Space+M+arrow+mouse. Simple, right?


Wouldn't Windows key + down, alt + space, M, arrow, mouse work?
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby phlip » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:19 am UTC

Dthen wrote:Wouldn't Windows key + down, alt + space, M, arrow, mouse work?

Sure, but if you have Aero Snap then you may as well just use Win+Left or Right a couple of times and shortcut the whole thing.

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby Dthen » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:20 am UTC

Good point.
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Re: 1479: "Troubleshooting"

Postby sangeoff » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:53 am UTC

Killroy wrote:ALT+Space -> Open system menu
M -> Move window
Up/Down/Left/Right -> Initiate moving of window via keyboard. This attaches the window to the mouse cursor
Wiggle Mouse -> Bring window onto screen of choice.


Exactly the same method I have used for years, always makes me feel a little superior over the computer when i get to use it.

The most frustrating this is when I'm helping a coworker on Microsoft LYNC (POS) and a windows pops up on a different monitor, i so want to use the Alt+Space and pull it over but sadly it does not work when screen sharing like that. Anyone know a good trick for moving windows on screen when screen sharing?


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