1539: "Planning"

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higgs-boson
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby higgs-boson » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:23 am UTC

The Bomb has much in common with common blackmail. It is a bullet you can fire only once. Although having it helps a lot (at the very least because you cannot be brought to justice easily), you are not allowed to boast about it, and the day-to-day domination has to be supported by other means.

The pursuit of world domination isn't the U.S.' unique selling point. It's their success.

Spoiler:
Moody's, S&P et al. are still granting gold status to the U.S. and did not lose their worldwide influence. The U.S. never ratified the signatory to the Rome statute of the International Criminal Court, meaning that U.S. marines could invade Den Haag if anyone has been stupid enough to drag an American citizen to that court (hurry, or the Global Warming enthrilled ocean beats you to it unless someone drills a hole into the ocean). Any country engaging in war of aggressions would be in trouble, well, any other country. ...


I guess, the U.S.* are doing a pretty good job at world** domination.


*Of course, it is not "the U.S.", but "the U.S. 1%".
**And it is not "world", it is "world, including 99% of U.S.' citizens".***
***Now I'm being watched by the three-letter-agencies**** more closely.
****G-O-O-G-L-E ... well, that one just counts twice.
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:55 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:
brenok wrote:
Turing Machine wrote:100 million dead, and we still have to deal with this apologism. Holy shit.

WTF are you talking about?

Communism's body count, apparently.

As for people believing the USA has nukes to try to take over the world, it's interesting that the one country we actually used them on is still an independent country and not our 51st state. Heck, we haven't even gotten around to taking over Canada and Mexico yet, and we can walk there (and New York City has as many people in its police force as Canada has in it's army... it should be pretty easy, eh?) As evil overlording goes, we're apparently pretty terrible at it.

The neat thing with nukes is that you usually don't even have to threaten with them at all. You see, every country wants to be friends with the country with a massive nuclear arsenal. A simple paper that tells them you'd nuke any country that invades them is usually sufficient to get a lot done. If you include "don't invade any of our friends, or else we'll nuke you" in that contract and get them to most countries of the world you have a kind of peace.
Now you have a lot of countries that want to continue being your friend. They would do just about anything to remain so. That is control. That is world dominiation. Much easier than directly controlling every nation in the world and you can still force your laws unto them (see copyright).

Now one of the risks is that two countries build similar arsenals and delivery mechanisms, but what are the chances of that? (oh and even that worked out just fine in the end.)
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby The Devils Engineer » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:32 pm UTC

This comic is the reason I both admire Mr. Randall and wish I had just a smidgeon of his talent. Two totally separate concepts/ideas that get humorously joined at the end. And a nice observation of the human condition. I laughed at the Alt Text. My compliments Mr. Randall :D
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby The Devils Engineer » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:55 pm UTC

jc wrote:
Flumble wrote:How does she even switch the subject from giving away control to "big-picture planning"? For all we know, google and facebook aren't even after world domination.


The Americans and other folks who built the nuclear weapons have never admitted that world domination was their goal. Their excuse was always <i>defense</> against all those evil people in the rest of the world who want to do bad stuff to us. Since the evil Commies lost all their credibility back in the 1980s, the people here in the US who are sending the troops around the world (and maintaining the nuclear weapons) changed the terminology a bit; it's now the evil Terrists that we need to defend against. But it's the same story. Nope; we're not after world domination at all. We just have to defend ourselves from all those people that populate the rest of the planet and want to hurt us.


Uhmmmm......I'm sorry, but your a bit wrong on that. If you'd do some reading, you'd find that the Pre-WWII American society had a very large percentage of people who were isolationist. They did not want to get involved in another war "over there" in Europe. Please see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ventionism . It was only the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor that forced us into the War. And Please note that the original declaration of was was against Japan, NOT the Germans and Italians. Everyone knew that the US would eventually have to help fight all three, but the President and Congress specifically waited until Germany and Italy declared War Against us before declaring war against them.

Secondly, if you do a bit more reading, you'll find that the construction of nuclear weapons was driven mostly by the fear that Nazi Germany would develop it first, thereby giving them a very powerful weapon to possibly destroy the US. Link here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein% ... 1rd_letter .

And you seem to "po po" the idea that the US doesn't need to defend itself. I hate to break the news to you, but there are people and countries out there that don't particular like us. They hate us and our way of life. And they would like to see us wiped off the face of the earth. Whether or not the US has done things to deserve that hatred I won't go into here. I'll take the good with the bad with my country. And I, along with a lot of other folk, will work to defend it against the people who would like to do us harm.

G.
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:58 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:You can't expect what you really, truly want to be done unless you're capable of articulating precisely what it is that you want, which is hard work, without which you're going to get at best "do exactly what I say, shit wait no I didn't mean for that to happen" or "do what you think I would want, no not like that, no not like that either, damnit!"

Honestly, I don't see how it is any different from saying the same to yourself when you rule the world on your own.

Yeah that's kind of what I mean. Just like there is no programming language possible that will free you from having to articulate what it is you really want the computer to do, there is no way of ruling the world (either directly or by proxy) that frees you from the responsibility of articulating what exactly it is you really want the world to do.

What you could have, in either case, that would actually help, is some mechanism for helping you clarify what exactly it is you really want, such as by highlighting the perhaps-unforeseen consequences of the things you say you want and suggesting alternatives that might achieve the consequences that it looks like maybe you really want. An advisor like that is possible, and could be very helpful, but still doesn't free you from the burden of command, which you cannot escape if you want to retain control.

(Suddenly I'm imagining Clippy for World Rulers: "Hi! It looks like you're trying to stop global warming! Would you like some help with that?")
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby drunken » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:43 pm UTC

The Devils Engineer wrote:They hate us and our way of life


A journalist was interviewing an old man whose village in Afghanistan was destroyed by a drone attack. The journalist asked him "Why do you think the US destroyed your village?". The man answered "They hate our way of life".

It never ceases to amaze me how many people swallow the propaganda whole without chewing at all, and then don't feel embarassed to regurgitate it in public.
***This post is my own opinion and no claim is being made that it is in any way scientific nor intended to be construed as such by any reader***

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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:55 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Kit. wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:You can't expect what you really, truly want to be done unless you're capable of articulating precisely what it is that you want, which is hard work, without which you're going to get at best "do exactly what I say, shit wait no I didn't mean for that to happen" or "do what you think I would want, no not like that, no not like that either, damnit!"

Honestly, I don't see how it is any different from saying the same to yourself when you rule the world on your own.

Yeah that's kind of what I mean. Just like there is no programming language possible that will free you from having to articulate what it is you really want the computer to do, there is no way of ruling the world (either directly or by proxy) that frees you from the responsibility of articulating what exactly it is you really want the world to do.

What you could have, in either case, that would actually help, is some mechanism for helping you clarify what exactly it is you really want, such as by highlighting the perhaps-unforeseen consequences of the things you say you want and suggesting alternatives that might achieve the consequences that it looks like maybe you really want. An advisor like that is possible, and could be very helpful, but still doesn't free you from the burden of command, which you cannot escape if you want to retain control.

(Suddenly I'm imagining Clippy for World Rulers: "Hi! It looks like you're trying to stop global warming! Would you like some help with that?")


The thing is, I mostly don't care about what's going on in the rest of the world so long as it keeps going and doesn't get in my way. Sure, it would be nice if there was no hunger or poverty or war, but I'd much rather have a ruler for whom my happiness and well-being is important than be ruler myself.

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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby higgs-boson » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:02 pm UTC

drunken wrote:
The Devils Engineer wrote:They hate us and our way of life


A journalist was interviewing an old man whose village in Afghanistan was destroyed by a drone attack. The journalist asked him "Why do you think the US destroyed your village?". The man answered "They hate our way of life".

It never ceases to amaze me how many people swallow the propaganda whole without chewing at all, and then don't feel embarassed to regurgitate it in public.


Calm down to the full quote, please. He wrote
The Devils Engineer wrote:They hate us and our way of life. And they would like to see us wiped off the face of the earth. Whether or not the US has done things to deserve that hatred I won't go into here. I'll take the good with the bad with my country [...]

See, that's not quite just repeating government fairy tales. He (a) just don't cares if the behaviour of his country is justified or not (which is very much the whole damned thing about world domination), (b) is fully aware of his not caring, and (c) admits it. This would never happen in the typical U.S. propaganda (see political suicide).

I suppose, the United States have done their share for being hated. Just pick the Drone Strikes, for one thing - Would killing people out of the blue sky not be a pretty good way to terrorize people (literally) to death?

Of course, bashing the U.S. for the whole goddamn music the world has now to face because of the wholepursuit of world domination ... it would be more easier, if all the world's misbehaviour would be found with the U.S. only. Which is not the case. Every country's administration (including Western Europe countries like the UK, or Germany) tend to ignore International law here and then if following the law would be too inconvenient (and they expect getting away with it).

Neil is most probably right:
Neil_Boekend wrote:The neat thing with nukes is that you usually don't even have to threaten with them at all. You see, every country wants to be friends with the country with a massive nuclear arsenal.

This leads to some inconvenience in Germany, lately:
  • The U.S. Base in Ramstein, Germany, may play a major role in the drone strike issue, which would make (according to international law of war) this base a legitimate target for any opponent of the U.S. forces. The German administration prefers not to know anything.
  • As a post-Snowden-issue, the Parlamentarisches Kontrollgremium (the people who are to oversee the intelligence agencies) found signs that the U.S. NSA spied on European industry and got help from the German BND. Out of fear to disgruntle the U.S., the administration denied proper investigation on the issue. Well, if U.S. senators fail to rein in the U.S. intelligence agencies, why on earth should the Germans succeed?
So, in short, German administration insists in being BFF with the U.S. Well, given the Bomb issue, given Germany being an country of exportation in need of market access, who could blame them? Suddenly switching to lawful good would probably make things even worse (we all know that D&D paladins get themselves into trouble all the time because they haven't developed a self-preserving kind of diplomacy skill). The bully-boy would win anyway, and the mood would be ruined for both and any bystanders. For decades.
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby orthogon » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:04 am UTC

0800 UTC and no comic; no activity on the ICT forum* for ten hours... Have they come and spirited Randall and my forum friends away to Guantanamo?

* Except for Time, obviously.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Flumble » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:19 am UTC

orthogon wrote:0800 UTC and no comic; no activity on the ICT forum* for ten hours... Have they come and spirited Randall and my forum friends away to Guantanamo?

Now I imagined Spirited Away to be set in Guantanamo Bay. :(

2015-06-19T11:19:00Z and still no comic

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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Kit. » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:53 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Kit. wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:You can't expect what you really, truly want to be done unless you're capable of articulating precisely what it is that you want, which is hard work, without which you're going to get at best "do exactly what I say, shit wait no I didn't mean for that to happen" or "do what you think I would want, no not like that, no not like that either, damnit!"

Honestly, I don't see how it is any different from saying the same to yourself when you rule the world on your own.

Yeah that's kind of what I mean. Just like there is no programming language possible that will free you from having to articulate what it is you really want the computer to do,

When I tried to reply, my line of thought made me giggle:
Spoiler:
1. Options. We've got lots of them. So many in fact, that you
need two strong people to carry the documentation around. So many
that it will be a cold day in hell before half of them are used.
So many that you are probably not going to do your work right
anyway. However, the number of options isn't all that important,
because we picked some interesting values for the options and called
them...

2. Defaults. We put a lot of thought into our defaults. We like
them. If we didn't, we would have made something else be the
default. So keep your cotton-picking hands off our defaults.
Don't touch. Consider them mandatory. "Mandatory defaults" has
a nice ring to it. Change them and your system crashes, tough.
See figure 1.

Sorry, couldn't resist. But I hope you got the idea. So, sometimes it's just enough to tell the compiler: "OK, C++, put the object A into the queue B" without specifying if B should be implemented as a deque, as a list, or as your own custom container type, but sometimes you need to articulate the same kind of needed action in greater detail. Most of the time, though, you don't, and that's what the defaults (whose values you might even not need to know) are about.

Pfhorrest wrote:there is no way of ruling the world (either directly or by proxy) that frees you from the responsibility of articulating what exactly it is you really want the world to do.

Most of the time you don't really care what exactly you want the world to do. Like, "wow, it's even better than I thought I would be getting!"

Pfhorrest wrote:(Suddenly I'm imagining Clippy for World Rulers: "Hi! It looks like you're trying to stop global warming! Would you like some help with that?")

Well... what is an English word for a feeling that a cruel punishment was well-deserved?

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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Keyman » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:18 pm UTC

Well... what is an English word for a feeling that a cruel punishment was well-deserved?


"Schadenfreude"

We don't need an English word. We just take what we want from other countries.
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Flumble » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:43 pm UTC

Keyman wrote:
Well... what is an English word for a feeling that a cruel punishment was well-deserved?


"Schadenfreude"

We don't need an English word. We just take what we want from other countries.

That's the sadistic enjoyment of other's suffering, deserved or undeserved.

Series and films always try to convince me that it's called "justice". Although Watchmen took a nice jab at that idea.

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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Keyman » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:33 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
Keyman wrote:
Well... what is an English word for a feeling that a cruel punishment was well-deserved?


"Schadenfreude"

We don't need an English word. We just take what we want from other countries.

That's the sadistic enjoyment of other's suffering, deserved or undeserved.

Series and films always try to convince me that it's called "justice". Although Watchmen took a nice jab at that idea.

That's the German definition. Not the English one! :wink:

But seriously, I know this is kind of an international forum, so I defer. It was the first word I though of, and tried to 'source' it and found this:
Why do most American dictionaries provide an incorrect definition of "schadenfreude"?
Even Wiki blows it with this: Schadenfreude
is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

Nope. Sorry. That's plain wrong.

There's something vitally important missing in the above from the original German. In the original the word means pleasure derived from the deserved misfortune of others. Let me illustrate the difference.

If something bad happens to an average person, for instance they lose their job, get into a car accident, or slip on an icy sidewalk, there is no pleasure to be derived from that--unless you're a sociopath.

However, when the arrogant and hypocritical get into trouble it's often very amusing. Think of all the holier-than-thou televangelists who have been busted over the years for stealing money, hiring hookers (even male ones), and having affairs. Recall the rabidly anti-gay Senator Larry Craig being arrested for "foot-tapping" in an airport men's room by a vice cop.

When you enjoy the fact that someone has received their just desserts, that's schadenfreude. It's a healthy normal response to seeing something all too rare in life: justice being meted out by the gods.

I bring this up because the English language needs this word.
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:45 pm UTC

That's interesting because the American understanding of schadenfreude is exactly the same as the original meaning you gave; I haven't looked in too many dictionaries, but it's odd that they would neglect that key point.
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby drunken » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:45 pm UTC

I think you are overstating the point Keyman. While it is true that normal people who aren't psychologically sick don't feel schadenfreude for the suffering of others unless they feel it was deserved, that is not part of the definition of the word. It really is as simple as the wikipedia entry, except that misfortune is possibly the wrong word. The damage doesn't have to be accidental, which is implied by the word misfortune. I guess that is part of the English language though, I am struggling to find a word for misfortune that doesn't imply luck. The only one that comes to mind is 'karma'.
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Re: 1539: "Planning"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:55 pm UTC

"Suffering"? Just implies a bad thing happened, not anything about the cause of it.
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