1572: "xkcd Survey"

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:19 am UTC

ubikuberalles wrote:
HES wrote:
orthogon wrote:Manoeuvre

No word should have that many vowels in a row.


Then you'll probably hate this page: https://www.wordnik.com/lists/words-wit ... ive-vowels

And the word "queueing" has five - I said FIVE - vowels in a row. Oh me yarm! ;)


Yeah, well, I know a word with lots more vowels in a row than that. Hint: announcer on TV Futbol broadcasts :oops:
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:51 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
ubikuberalles wrote:
HES wrote:
orthogon wrote:Manoeuvre

No word should have that many vowels in a row.


Then you'll probably hate this page: https://www.wordnik.com/lists/words-wit ... ive-vowels

And the word "queueing" has five - I said FIVE - vowels in a row. Oh me yarm! ;)


Yeah, well, I know a word with lots more vowels in a row than that. Hint: announcer on TV Futbol broadcasts :oops:


I assume you mean "GO[...]OAL"? I dispute that as a word, and for that matter I dispute it as a valid way of transcribing what is said. GOOOAL doesn't look to me like "goal" said slowly, it looks like either "goo-oal" (rhymes with "new foal") or "goo-al" (rhymes with "new towel"). Similarly, I reject a "Big No" as "NOOO", which is clearly a homophone of "new".
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby orthogon » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:47 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:Similarly, I reject a "Big No" as "NOOO", which is clearly a homophone of "new".

"NOOO" is not a homophone of "new". The latter contains a diphthong. </EN-GB>
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Znirk » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:24 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
cellocgw wrote:Yeah, well, I know a word with lots more vowels in a row than that. Hint: announcer on TV Futbol broadcasts :oops:

I assume you mean "GO[...]OAL"? I dispute that as a word, and for that matter I dispute it as a valid way of transcribing what is said. GOOOAL doesn't look to me like "goal" said slowly, it looks like either "goo-oal" (rhymes with "new foal") or "goo-al" (rhymes with "new towel"). Similarly, I reject a "Big No" as "NOOO", which is clearly a homophone of "new".

That's really mostly a statement about the ... um, particular use which English spelling makes of the latin alphabet. (If your language has too many vowels for the script you've chosen, I recommend diacritics over digraphs.)

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:02 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:"goo-al" (rhymes with "new towel")

Do you pronounce "towel" to rhyme with "fall" rather than "fowl"?
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby orthogon » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:35 pm UTC

Znirk wrote:
mathmannix wrote:
cellocgw wrote:Yeah, well, I know a word with lots more vowels in a row than that. Hint: announcer on TV Futbol broadcasts :oops:

I assume you mean "GO[...]OAL"? I dispute that as a word, and for that matter I dispute it as a valid way of transcribing what is said. GOOOAL doesn't look to me like "goal" said slowly, it looks like either "goo-oal" (rhymes with "new foal") or "goo-al" (rhymes with "new towel"). Similarly, I reject a "Big No" as "NOOO", which is clearly a homophone of "new".

That's really mostly a statement about the ... um, particular use which English spelling makes of the latin alphabet. (If your language has too many vowels for the script you've chosen, I recommend diacritics over digraphs.)

Woah, I've been only too happy to go on about how unsuited Japanese is to the Chinese writing system, but that's the first time I've properly thought of English as using an inappropriate foreign writing system. Still, it's about five orders of magnitude worse in the Japanese case.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:58 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
mathmannix wrote:"goo-al" (rhymes with "new towel")

Do you pronounce "towel" to rhyme with "fall" rather than "fowl"?

No. (Confused).

These words all rhyme to my ears: Al, bowel, cowl, dowel, foul/fowl, gal, howl, jowl, owl, pal, Powell, shall, towel, vowel, yowl. I can see how some distinguish {Al, gal, pal, shall} from the others, but I don't in my pronunciation. (And I'm not certain that that's the correct subset, but I picked the ones that don't have u's or w's.)

These words all rhyme to my ears: all/awl, ball, call, fall, gall, hall, mall/maul, pall, shawl, stall, tall, wall, y'all. I guess some distinguish {awl, maul, shawl} from the others (although again I'm not certain that that's the right subset.)\

EDIT: oh, I mean "Al" in "Goo-al" as in the name short for Albert or Alfred.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:43 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
cellocgw wrote:Yeah, well, I know a word with lots more vowels in a row than that. Hint: announcer on TV Futbol broadcasts :oops:


I assume you mean "GO[...]OAL"?
Why would a Spanish broadcast use the word "goal"? Clearly cellocgw is referring to a lengthening of the word "gol", which is a word in Spanish, which pronounces "o" as /o/ in all cases.

mathmannix wrote:EDIT: oh, I mean "Al" in "Goo-al" as in the name short for Albert or Alfred.
I think everyone gets that you meant that, what's confusing is why on earth you pronounce Al and owl as homophones.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:58 pm UTC

So mathmannix, would tally of towels, a "towel tally", begin with a the repetition of the same sound, "tal-"?
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Copper Bezel » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:44 am UTC

Is it a speaking quickly thing? But I can hear the glide in "towel" no matter how fast I say it....
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby theusername » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:39 pm UTC

To anyone saying that the numer 1-100 question only accepted integers: I had at least 10 decimal places.

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Wildcard » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:23 pm UTC

theusername wrote:To anyone saying that the numer 1-100 question only accepted integers: I had at least 10 decimal places.

It only accepted rational numbers in base ten decimal form.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby mathmannix » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:28 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
mathmannix wrote:EDIT: oh, I mean "Al" in "Goo-al" as in the name short for Albert or Alfred.
I think everyone gets that you meant that, what's confusing is why on earth you pronounce Al and owl as homophones.

OK, first of all I guess I should have said "goo-al" looks to me like it rhymes with "new pal", as that would be true for more people I presume.
...
Well, we all have our own different regional pronunciations. Mergers and splits or what-have-you. I know some people don't have "owl" and "Al" as homophones, and I can hear the distinction when people pronounce them differently. And I can pronounce them differently too if I focus on it, to the point where words stop sounding natural. But when I say them, quickly or not, they sound the same to me if I'm not concentrating on how I do (or should) actually pronounce them. I mean, it's like how I can pronounce "our" to sound the same as "hour", but when I say it in speech, I usually pronounce it the same as "are". Or maybe even how I make some words, like "route" and "aunt", sound differently in different situations ("root" or "rout", and "ant" or rhyming with "wont", respectively.)

Obviously your mileage will vary; I'm not saying my way is the only right way, just that it is a valid regional "right" way. I haven't done a survey, but I can't be the only one who thinks of Al and owl as homophones.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:38 pm UTC

Yes, I know how regional accents work, thanks.

The confusion is what regional accent has the rhymes and homophones you're describing, because it doesn't match anything I can think of.

Do "pal" and "Paul" also sound the same for you? How about "Powell"?

I know of the COT-CAUGHT merger, but I'm unaware of a CAT-CAUGHT merger, which seems like it would be necessary for "pal" and "Paul" to sound the same. And I still can't wrap my internal ear around a pal-Powell merger.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby mathmannix » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:54 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yes, I know how regional accents work, thanks.

The confusion is what regional accent has the rhymes and homophones you're describing, because it doesn't match anything I can think of.

Do "pal" and "Paul" also sound the same for you? How about "Powell"?

I know of the COT-CAUGHT merger, but I'm unaware of a CAT-CAUGHT merger, which seems like it would be necessary for "pal" and "Paul" to sound the same. And I still can't wrap my internal ear around a pal-Powell merger.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as patronizing(?) regarding a topic you know more about than I do. But I apparently have a Powell-pal merger. (I don't know if it has an already established (better) name.) I also don't know if it's an upper Midwest thing or what. (I found a source that describes the Philadelphia dialect as having a "merger of pal, pail, and Powell", but I don't pronounce pail the same as the other two (it's the same as pale, for the record), and my family is not from anywhere near Philadelphia.)

And no, Paul sounds the same to me as pall, but different from Powell and pal.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:13 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:However, broccoli are somewhat fractal in nature
IMHO regular broccoli is less gorgeous than Romanesco.

ubikuberalles wrote:
HES wrote:
orthogon wrote:Manoeuvre

No word should have that many vowels in a row.


Then you'll probably hate this page: https://www.wordnik.com/lists/words-wit ... ive-vowels

And the word "queueing" has five - I said FIVE - vowels in a row. Oh me yarm! ;)

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:25 pm UTC

I could more easily see "Pal" and "Powell" being homophones than "Pal" and "Paul". In my pronunciation, if you stuck a "w" sound in the middle of "Pal" (but not if you wrote "Pawl", which I would pronounce like "Paul"), you'd get "Powell".

Same with "tal-" in "tally" and "towel", which are more alike to my ear than either is to "tall".
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby orthogon » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:32 pm UTC

@mathmannix, gmal said what I was going to say: nobody is saying you're pronouncing anything wrong, I think we're all mystified as to what accent has the characteristics you describe. I may be a Brit but I've watched a lot of US TV and can't imagine owl not containing a diphthong for example. Any chance we might persuade you to record some of these words and share an mp3?

@Neil: that broccolus is giving me the serious creeps. I think I'm going to have nightmares.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:45 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:@Neil: that broccolus is giving me the serious creeps. I think I'm going to have nightmares.

Really? I've always thought that they are absolutely beautiful.

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Wildcard » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:22 am UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:Obligatory

I'm going to assume you meant:
Obligatory
Because that just makes more sense.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby JackHK » Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:35 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:@mathmannix, gmal said what I was going to say: nobody is saying you're pronouncing anything wrong, I think we're all mystified as to what accent has the characteristics you describe. I may be a Brit but I've watched a lot of US TV and can't imagine owl not containing a diphthong for example. Any chance we might persuade you to record some of these words and share an mp3?


One situation I could imagine these word pronounced the same is if ther's l-vocalisation, where /l/'s are sometimes pronounced like /w/'s in coda positions. In my idiolect (Northwest England) I can do this in casual speech, so I would have "Al" /aw/ and "owl" /aw/. (In practice the /w/ in "owl is slightly more prolonged and emphasised than in "Al".)

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby ps.02 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:44 pm UTC

JackHK wrote:One situation I could imagine these word pronounced the same is if ther's l-vocalisation, where /l/'s are sometimes pronounced like /w/'s in coda positions. In my idiolect (Northwest England) I can do this in casual speech, so I would have "Al" /aw/ and "owl" /aw/. (In practice the /w/ in "owl is slightly more prolonged and emphasised than in "Al".)

Reportedly common in South Australia too. But this randomly reminds me: I recently learned the terms l-vocalisation and r-labialisation. For the life of me I cannot figure out why these two phenomena, which seem so similar, have such different names.

Also, does l-vocalisation imply that the rest of us don't vocalise the \L\? 'Cause I surely do.

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:47 pm UTC

I was recently told that it's odd of me to pronounce the "l" in words like "polka" and "folk". Apparently others with my dialect say "poke-uh" and "foke", and I just never noticed.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:28 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I was recently told that it's odd of me to pronounce the "l" in words like "polka" and "folk". Apparently others with my dialect say "poke-uh" and "foke", and I just never noticed.


I do in polka; don't in folk.

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:01 pm UTC

I do in those cases, but I also pronounce the "t" in "often" despite knowing that this is incorrect, so.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:15 pm UTC

That's not incorrect. If anything, it's more correct. But god please not this argument again...
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Adacore » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:16 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I was recently told that it's odd of me to pronounce the "l" in words like "polka" and "folk". Apparently others with my dialect say "poke-uh" and "foke", and I just never noticed.

I'm the same as rmsgrey - "pol-ka" and "foke", with a fairly standard British accent somewhere between Received Pronunciation and Estuary English.

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:19 pm UTC

For people who say "foke", how do you pronounce "Volkswagon"? "Vokes-" or "volks-"?
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Adacore » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:08 am UTC

I would pronounce the 'L' in Volkswagen (Volks-wah-gon)

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Carlington » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:50 am UTC

I would also pronounce the L in polka but not in folk ("foke"). For Volkswagen, the L is there, but it's heavily velarised ("dark L"), much more so than I think happens in other words, and also possibly a little labialised as well.

ps.02 wrote:Also, does l-vocalisation imply that the rest of us don't vocalise the \L\? 'Cause I surely do.

In this context, vocalisation just means that a sound becomes more vowel-like; in this case the /l/ becomes a glide, /w/.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:28 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:That's not incorrect. If anything, it's more correct. But god please not this argument again...
Then why did you bring it up again?

Is it also more correct to pronounce the 't' in "thistle" and "rustle" and "listen" and "moisten"?
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:47 am UTC

yes and fuck off
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:54 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:yes and fuck off

nice chatting with you
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby The Moomin » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:34 pm UTC

I'd pronounce Polka as Poll-car. Earlier on someone was mentioning that they have an uh noise at the end? Am I completely out on my pronunciation?

(Also I would pronounce it Foke for Folk, and have a L in Volkswagen like I would for volt. I am not sure if I decided to do this myself or picked it up from somewhere)

I also realise that describing word sounds by using other words is probably meaningless as these words may also be pronounced wrong.

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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:12 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:That's not incorrect. If anything, it's more correct. But god please not this argument again...

Okay, despite knowing that it's a spelling pronunciation based on a misunderstanding and associated with people a century ago pretending to be more educated than they were, which is normally a set of factors I would consider sufficient to avoid the usage.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:07 am UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:That's not incorrect. If anything, it's more correct. But god please not this argument again...

Okay, despite knowing that it's a spelling pronunciation based on a misunderstanding and associated with people a century ago pretending to be more educated than they were, which is normally a set of factors I would consider sufficient to avoid the usage.

From Middle English often, alteration (probably due to Middle English selden ‎(“seldom”)) of Middle English ofte, oft, from Old English oft ‎(“oft, often”), from Proto-Germanic *ufta, *uftō ‎(“often”). Cognate with Scots oftin ‎(“often”), North Frisian oftem ‎(“often”), Saterland Frisian oafte ‎(“often”), German oft ‎(“often”), Danish ofte ‎(“often”), Swedish ofta ‎(“often”), Icelandic oft ‎(“often”). Pronunciation: (RP): /ˈɒfn̩/, /ˈɒftən/; (US): /ˈɔfn̩/, /ˈɔftən/

Looks like the "t" goes all the way back to the beginning, even if it's common dropped nowadays.
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:33 am UTC

That says nothing about whether or not it was ever actually pronounced in the "often" form until standardized spelling, but mostly I just know it was preferred against in the nineteenth century or something. It's definitely a spelling pronunciation now, for whatever that actually means to "correctness."
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby xtifr » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:15 am UTC

"Correct" pronunciation depends on the dialect and accent you're aiming for. Pronouncing the "r" in "girl" would be incorrect if you're trying to pronounce British RP (Received Pronunciation), but absolutely correct if you're trying to pronounce General American.

In the case of the "t" in "often", I believe it's optional in many accents, but it's extremely unusual in mine, and may be nearly mandatory in others.
"[T]he author has followed the usual practice of contemporary books on graph theory, namely to use words that are similar but not identical to the terms used in other books on graph theory."
-- Donald Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming, Vol I, 3rd ed.

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mathmannix
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:54 pm UTC

Hehe, that reminds me how in Pirates of Penzance, there is a joke based on "often" and "orphan" being homophones. Those of us in the musical in high school had to concentrate to say both of them as "offen", as neither of them was naturally pronounced that way to us.
I hear velociraptor tastes like chicken.

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Steve the Pocket
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Re: 1572: "xkcd Survey"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:54 am UTC

ubikuberalles wrote:Then you'll probably hate this page: https://www.wordnik.com/lists/words-wit ... ive-vowels

I like how the very first word on the list, "aeneous", only has three. I believe that is what we in the Intertubes call an "epic fail".

Pfhorrest wrote:I was recently told that it's odd of me to pronounce the "l" in words like "polka" and "folk". Apparently others with my dialect say "poke-uh" and "foke", and I just never noticed.

I just realized that I say "pole-kuh" when I'm talking about the music, but "poe-kuh" when I say "polka dot".

For that matter, what the crap does a musical genre have to do with a pattern in the first place? Was it like how ska fans wear checkerboard wristbands, or emo kids get stupid haircuts?
cephalopod9 wrote:Only on Xkcd can you start a topic involving Hitler and people spend the better part of half a dozen pages arguing about the quality of Operating Systems.

Baige.


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