Page 1 of 1

1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:19 am UTC
by keithl
Image
alt text: And when I think about it, a lot of "things I want to do" are just learning about and discussing new tools for tinkering with the chain.

And don't forget the hardware upgrades because your old devices are not supported by the new software.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:48 am UTC
by slinches
This is true for the people who create the tools. That seemingly useless loop produces things the rest of us use to productively pursue meaningful goals.

Thanks.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:08 am UTC
by siebje
"Soley"?

Solely?

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:17 am UTC
by commodorejohn
This is why I find myself moving more and more away from modern software and operating systems; the newer the system, the more it feels like I'm sacrificing my time to it (update! Create an account! Update again! Create another account! Update and learn an entirely new workflow because they completely broke the old one! Maybe fit some work in there somewhere!?) rather than having it serve to improve my time.

If we get to a point where PC-on-PC emulation is satisfactorily fast and stable, I'll probably just go back to using Windows 2000 and period software for everything but web browsing...

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:21 am UTC
by cjmcjmcjmcjm
Just wait until he hears about Linux and then gets frustrated and moves to BSD!

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:44 am UTC
by pareidolon
What's most unsettling about this is that following the flow from just about any point will sink you in "repository," suggesting that the whole network exists for the maintaining of "repository."

On a different note, now do one for the human body!

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:05 am UTC
by orthogon
commodorejohn wrote:This is why I find myself moving more and more away from modern software and operating systems; the newer the system, the more it feels like I'm sacrificing my time to it (update! Create an account! Update again! Create another account! Update and learn an entirely new workflow because they completely broke the old one! Maybe fit some work in there somewhere!?) rather than having it serve to improve my time.

If we get to a point where PC-on-PC emulation is satisfactorily fast and stable, I'll probably just go back to using Windows 2000 and period software for everything but web browsing...


That, and the way all the different bits of software actively fight each other in constant turf battles. The antivirus tries to stop Adobe updating, then the browser gets tense because the Adobe plugin is out of date, and meanwhile underneath everything, in some pre-Cambrian layer of the desktop, there's that window asking you what type of network you've connected to, which places subtle and incoherent restrictions on what you can do until you answer it.

Did you just coin the phrase "period software"? (Google didn't find any hits that weren't coincidental occurrences of the two words in different sentences or phrases like "trial period software"). If so, you totally win the internets. Given that current computers in fiction use the Hollywood Operating System*, I wonder what computers used in future period dramas will run...

* Actually I've noticed a significant improvement in this recently; at least ordinary office desktop computers are shown running something pretty similar to Windows and searching using something that looks very close to Google.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:13 am UTC
by bigglesworth
siebje wrote:"Soley"?

Solely?
Sóley

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:18 am UTC
by speising
orthogon wrote:* Actually I've noticed a significant improvement in this recently; at least ordinary office desktop computers are shown running something pretty similar to Windows [...]


that is, sometimes very annoying, product placement. Just like when the protagonists suddenly start to discuss the wonderful features of their car without any motivation.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:23 am UTC
by Murderbot
orthogon wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:Did you just coin the phrase "period software"? (Google didn't find any hits that weren't coincidental occurrences of the two words in different sentences or phrases like "trial period software"). If so, you totally win the internets. Given that current computers in fiction use the Hollywood Operating System*, I wonder what computers used in future period dramas will run...

The 2010 film Rien à déclarer, which is set in 1993 has something that looks like Windows 95 with Windows 2.0 graphics., i.e. windows have a minimize, maximize/restore and close button in the top right corner.

speising wrote:that is, sometimes very annoying, product placement. Just like when the protagonists suddenly start to discuss the wonderful features of their car without any motivation.

In Breaking Bad, Gus' laptop avoids product placement by having something that looks like Windows 7 with a missing start button.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:49 am UTC
by orthogon
Murderbot wrote:
speising wrote:that is, sometimes very annoying, product placement. Just like when the protagonists suddenly start to discuss the wonderful features of their car without any motivation.

In Breaking Bad, Gus' laptop avoids product placement by having something that looks like Windows 7 with a missing start button.

Is this a Windows 8 reference? ;-)

I don't buy it as product placement, anyway. Surely in product placement, the company pays the programme maker / broadcaster and in return they show the actual brand name and product. The guy drives off and you see the badge on the back of the car; or the heroine looks at her watch and you see the manufacturer's logo. You see that all the time with computer hardware manufacturers, so why don't you get shots of Windows splash screens, Google search pages etc.? Is there some legal reason why you aren't allowed to product-place software? In the past I would have said it was down to the Hollywood Operating System: if you really showed Windows/MacOs it would have to look like that product, which would interfere editorially with the need for huge flashing "ACCESS DENIED" banners across the middle of the screen and the like. But since things seem to be getting more realistic, why not show a real product? (I've seen realistic-looking search engines used recently on both NCIS and Midsomer Murders).

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:56 am UTC
by Kalium_Puceon
orthogon wrote:
Murderbot wrote:
speising wrote:that is, sometimes very annoying, product placement. Just like when the protagonists suddenly start to discuss the wonderful features of their friend Catherine without any motivation.

In Breaking Bad, Gus' laptop avoids product placement by having something that looks like Windows 7 with a missing start button.

Is this a Windows 8 reference? ;-)

I don't buy it as product placement, anyway. Surely in product placement, the company pays the programme maker / broadcaster and in return they show the actual brand name and product. The guy drives off and you see the badge on the back of the cat; or the heroine looks at her watch and you see the manufacturer's logo. You see that all the time with computer hardware manufacturers, so why don't you get shots of Windows splash screens, Google search pages etc.? Is there some legal reason why you aren't allowed to product-place software? In the past I would have said it was down to the Hollywood Operating System: if you really showed Windows/MacOs it would have to look like that product, which would interfere editorially with the need for huge flashing "ACCESS DENIED" banners across the middle of the screen and the like. But since things seem to be getting more realistic, why not show a real product? (I've seen realistic-looking search engines used recently on both NCIS and Midsomer Murders).


I don't think software companies feel the need to show off their software on TV, where you can't really see much of what it does, and often the things it IS used for on TV are so everyday that there's no need to advertise. Likewise, if you want to advertise some new Autodesk Simulation Software, selling it through a movie probably isn't the best way to promote it.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:16 am UTC
by cellocgw
slinches wrote:This is true for the people who create the tools. That seemingly useless loop produces things the rest of us use to productively pursue meaningful goals.

Thanks.


Not really. First off, half the time the updated version is less useful than the previous one and/or has moved menus and buttons around so you have to relearn the damn thing. Second, if your phone / tablet isn't constantly telling you there are 43 updates waiting, either you're off the grid or you somehow managed to delete all your apps.

I'd add to the original picture some comment about how all those updates running in the background are improperly prioritized so the stuff I'm actually trying to do gets slowed to a crawl, but I'm not sure how to plot that. Z-axis maybe?

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:48 am UTC
by Yu_p
That comic perfectly describes my relation ship to emacs.

I started using it because a lecturer recommended it. After a year of CUA, I began to realize the power of the “dated” concepts of mark/point, kill, yank, and I had come to love the dabbrev-expand as a way to avoid typos and speed up typing.

Then I began to dig into emacs-lisp to customize everything.

Then I started writing code to enhance the emacs-lisp editing process.

Just recently I spent a weeks worth of evenings reorganizing the directory tree (totalling 19k lines of code) that had replaced my .emacs file.

It is fun though *laughs maniacally*


cellocgw wrote:Second, if your phone / tablet isn't constantly telling you there are 43 updates waiting, either you're off the grid or you somehow managed to delete all your apps.


Personally I just have disabled those notifications. I don't need to be told if an app gets updated automatically after all.

Thankfully with Android 5.x notification management works reasonably well. Can't figure out to reduce the notifications from some app? Just turn them off (for that app) entirely in the OS! Now I'm waiting for Android 6 to come around with permission management on par with that of iOS...

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:55 pm UTC
by Vir4030
pareidolon wrote:What's most unsettling about this is that following the flow from just about any point will sink you in "repository," suggesting that the whole network exists for the maintaining of "repository."


Yes, please remove that unnecessary repository immediately! Then we can remove the chat client and a whole VM! Then two libraries and a tool also are no longer required. Although this computer is a steaming pile, it's a smaller one now.

Image

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:03 pm UTC
by Whizbang
This is what we in the Buzz Word industry call "Synergy".

Or "Synergisticalitudism". We haven't decided.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:28 pm UTC
by Showsni
Vir4030 wrote:
pareidolon wrote:What's most unsettling about this is that following the flow from just about any point will sink you in "repository," suggesting that the whole network exists for the maintaining of "repository."


Yes, please remove that unnecessary repository immediately! Then we can remove the chat client and a whole VM! Then two libraries and a tool also are no longer required. Although this computer is a steaming pile, it's a smaller one now.

Image


Well now it looks like the whole computer is just used to run IRC, and the only reason you go on IRC is to get advice on running the computer.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:45 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
Of course, mapping out activities in one's life is just a bigger version of this....

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:08 pm UTC
by Coyoty
Apparently Bill Gates and Windows don't exist in the CW shows, and have been replaced by Lex Luthor and whatever platform he created. The browsers and other applications they show on the screens don't exist in our world. Unless they're doing product placement promotions in Arrow or Flash.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:14 pm UTC
by commodorejohn
If I ever make a TV show/movie, I'm going to populate it with Amigas, Acorns, BeBoxen, and NeXTStations, all running their actual operating systems, just because.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:37 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
I've been watching Smallville lately and Chloe's computer in the school newspaper is obviously an iMac (hard to miss) and everything they show on screen is an actual shot of some actual app actually on the screen of the actual computer.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:07 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
Pfhorrest wrote:I've been watching Smallville lately and Chloe's computer in the school newspaper is obviously an iMac (hard to miss) and everything they show on screen is an actual shot of some actual app actually on the screen of the actual computer.

My favourite "Hollywood computer" was the soap Neighbours, which, for a decade or more, whenever someone played a computer game, the sound effects and music were always from Magic Carpet (and they never filmed the screen to show what was on it)

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:44 pm UTC
by Rombobjörn
commodorejohn wrote:Update and learn an entirely new workflow because they completely broke the old one!

Yeah, that annoys me immensely. Fortunately I've been able to find alternatives in the most disruptive cases. When Gnome was replaced with Gnome 3 I quickly concluded that I'm not the kind of user that Gnome 3 was designed for. Previously I had been switching back and forth between Gnome and KDE, but recent KDE with its obfuscated start menu and its heavy focus on eyecandy doesn't appeal to me either. I switched to XFCE instead, and have been using that ever since. After some initial configuration XFCE stays out of my way and lets me work.

I've also noticed that Firefox has morphed a lot lately. Fortunately I was already using Seamonkey, which just keeps working the way I'm used to.

commodorejohn wrote:If we get to a point where PC-on-PC emulation is satisfactorily fast and stable, I'll probably just go back to using Windows 2000 and period software for everything but web browsing...

That would work pretty well if security holes didn't exist.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:56 pm UTC
by commodorejohn
Rombobjörn wrote:Yeah, that annoys me immensely. Fortunately I've been able to find alternatives in the most disruptive cases. When Gnome was replaced with Gnome 3 I quickly concluded that I'm not the kind of user that Gnome 3 was designed for. Previously I had been switching back and forth between Gnome and KDE, but recent KDE with its obfuscated start menu and its heavy focus on eyecandy doesn't appeal to me either. I switched to XFCE instead, and have been using that ever since. After some initial configuration XFCE stays out of my way and lets me work.

I've also noticed that Firefox has morphed a lot lately. Fortunately I was already using Seamonkey, which just keeps working the way I'm used to.

The day Gnome 3 rolled out in Debian was the day I decided I was done with Gnome forever. Went to XFCE that very afternoon. (Nowadays I'm using WindowMaker...)

As for Firefox, I've been using PaleMoon (FF without the bullshit - no Chrome-wannabe interface, no attempts to push you onto Mozilla's social-networking products, 90% of the options and about:config entries that they took away restored) for about a year and a half now, and I haven't looked back.

That would work pretty well if security holes didn't exist.

If you don't give it an Internet connection, that's completely irrelevant.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:44 pm UTC
by Rombobjörn
commodorejohn wrote:
That would work pretty well if security holes didn't exist.

If you don't give it an Internet connection, that's completely irrelevant.

And never exchange data with another computer in any other way either.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:08 pm UTC
by commodorejohn
Well, sure, if you do something stupid like open random Excel spreadsheets with VBA enabled or install software from any random FREE SHITTY GAMES AND SPYWARE!!!1 page you could still have issues, but in that case you really only have yourself to blame.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:10 am UTC
by NTN
I'd recommend using Arch Linux with awesome or i3 as window manager. As far as I know neither WM has changed in a disrupting way in the last years. And Arch Linux lets you not update or even install old versions of packages while updating the rest of your system.

Both are tiling WMs. Awesome has a good non-tiling mode and good mouse controls. i3 focuses on being "suckless". For example, i3 does not use .desktop entries for its program launcher, which is a bit ugly, but in Awesome opening the launcher the first time takes long (and it needs a restart to show new entries). Complex tilings also suck in Awesome. In i3 you can easily build tilings by slicing windows in half.

So yeah, I recommend learning a lot of new technology to never have to learn anything again. The strange thing is that this actually works. I have become rather uninterested in learning to use new interfaces. When I started using Linux, I did not believe in the command line, but now I feel like it is the only thing nowadays that works the same everywhere.

Can anyone think of a better window manager paradigm than tiling with virtual desktops? I would guess that there won't be anything better in a while, because so little of my time is spent in opening and positioning windows that it hardly matters. The next thing would have to be nearly autonomous. Maybe a window manager that utilizes an environment where programs can co-operate like on the command line, but without the user explicitly chaining them.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:28 am UTC
by speising
Yes, don't forget: your computer isn't here for actually working!

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:15 am UTC
by RogueCynic
slinches wrote:This is true for the people who create the tools. That seemingly useless loop produces things the rest of us use to productively pursue meaningful goals.

Thanks.

By "productively pursue meaningful goals." you mean watching videos of cats doing cute things, right?

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:21 am UTC
by RogueCynic
Yu_p wrote:That comic perfectly describes my relation ship to emacs.

I started using it because a lecturer recommended it. After a year of CUA, I began to realize the power of the “dated” concepts of mark/point, kill, yank, and I had come to love the dabbrev-expand as a way to avoid typos and speed up typing.

Then I began to dig into emacs-lisp to customize everything.

Then I started writing code to enhance the emacs-lisp editing process.

Just recently I spent a weeks worth of evenings reorganizing the directory tree (totalling 19k lines of code) that had replaced my .emacs file.

It is fun though *laughs maniacally*


cellocgw wrote:Second, if your phone / tablet isn't constantly telling you there are 43 updates waiting, either you're off the grid or you somehow managed to delete all your apps.


Personally I just have disabled those notifications. I don't need to be told if an app gets updated automatically after all.

Thankfully with Android 5.x notification management works reasonably well. Can't figure out to reduce the notifications from some app? Just turn them off (for that app) entirely in the OS! Now I'm waiting for Android 6 to come around with permission management on par with that of iOS...


I made the mistake of leaving automatic updates on once. I needed 49 updates one night, so I left my laptop running. I got up in the morning and Windows was only 49% finished. Never again.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:17 am UTC
by Kalium_Puceon
keithl wrote:Image
alt text: And when I think about it, a lot of "things I want to do" are just learning about and discussing new tools for tinkering with the chain.

And don't forget the hardware upgrades because your old devices are not supported by the new software.


We can easily see that the Library which supports the Awful Hack is the core of this whole thing. It's the only linked item that has no prerequisites, right?

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:33 am UTC
by xtifr
Kalium_Puceon wrote:We can easily see that the Library which supports the Awful Hack is the core of this whole thing. It's the only linked item that has no prerequisites, right?


No, "DLL needed by something" and "things I actually want to use my computer for" also have no prerequisites. Which, I think, is sort of the point?

I too switched to Xfce when Gnome3 originally came out, but I kept Gnome around because Xfce had occasional odd problems with my audio hardware, which switching to Gnome would fix. So I gave Gnome3 another shot to see if I could make any sense of why they did the things they did, and to my surprise, it ended up working just fine for me, and I've been using it exclusively for months and months now. Of course, it's important to have gnome-tweak-tool installed.

(I also have fvwm, blackbox, and windowmaker installed, but I haven't actually used any of them in ages. Though fvwm was my preferred environment for the longest time.)

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:00 am UTC
by Copper Bezel
I actually really like a lot of the streamlining in the Gnome 3 interface, both in the desktop "shell" as they call it as well as in the individual applications. I'd probably have seriously considered sticking with it if it performed better on my video card and if they'd opted to handle application tray indicators sensibly. Since I'm on Ubuntu, I've been using Unity instead, which is Ubuntu's blend of Gnome 3 with a different "desktop shell", and it's kinda just better Gnome 3.

But I was using a dock, search and launch in place of an applications / places menu, a hot corner for window spread window switching, funny business with panels that overlapped maximized windows, etc. long before those things were shown off in Gnome 3 or Unity, so. That way of managing things just makes sense to me.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:18 am UTC
by orthogon
In this vein is the "volume keeper-the-samer" app for android that I've so far resisted installing. Some genius thought it would be neat if to could do things like change the ringer volume when the phone is locked, for example when it's in your pocket, set to silent, and you're on your way to a classical concert. Thus was half the point of locking a phone totally missed. The fix should be a setting, perhaps described as "actually lock phone in lock mode", but no, it's to install third party spyware that keeps an eye on the volume and sets it back where you left it if it changes, in return no doubt for access to your location and address book and use of 10% of your cpu and battery.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:26 pm UTC
by Copper Bezel
Kind of an oversight that that's a problem, yeah, since you can enable interaction with some applications from the lock screen - pause and resume music and the like, as well as adjust the volume from the rockers. But god, yes, I hate hacky workarounds like that. I do use an alternative indicator toggle tray thingy on my tablet, though - but it's an all-in-one replacement with enough configurability to put the all indicators and buttons-and-knobs things I want in there. Can't stand things that require me to, say, sacrifice a goat every full moon to keep my clipboard history synced or something.

Edit: Input settings startup scripts in (full desktop flavors of) Linux fall readily into that category.

Re: 1579: "Tech Loops"

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:17 am UTC
by Hafting
orthogon wrote:The guy drives off and you see the badge on the back of the car; or the heroine looks at her watch and you see the manufacturer's logo. You see that all the time with computer hardware manufacturers, so why don't you get shots of Windows splash screens, Google search pages etc.? Is there some legal reason why you aren't allowed to product-place software?


They are allowed software product-placement. IBM placed an OS/2 bootup screen into the James Bond movie "Goldeneye". I guess the reason they don't do that much, is that software has much shorter life than movies. Paying for the placement is a bit pointless. You don't want customers to be reminded of your visibly old obsolete versions when watching movie classics. Beer manufacturers don't have such problems. Cars get old after a while too, but people are more nostalgic about cars than software programs.

The os/2 placement wasn't that good either - used by the bad guys immediately before the final destruction of their base. But fitting the way os/2 went. . .