1595: "30 Days Hath September"

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby yakkoTDI » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:59 pm UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:But by the looks of things I've pulled that completely out of my arse.


Good for you! I had a friend only pull it halfway out and that caused a nasty infection.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby orthogon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:13 pm UTC

CharlieP wrote:Let's revert to the year starting in March - that way September, October, November and December mean something again, and the fiddly month is right at the end. :)

I gather that that's part of how the integer algorithm I lunk to above works.

Some months are obvious to me, whereas others require some thought.

Spoiler:
January: Easy. The 31st is my brother's birthday
Feb: Easy, it's the special case
March: Easy too - perhaps because 31st March is a common deadline?
April: Fairly easy, but I probably need to recite the rhyme to be sure
May: Easy, but no idea why
June: Easy. I just know it has 30 days.No idea why.
July: Easy.
August: Easy.
September: Since it comes first in the rhyme, it's hard to tell whether I'm remembering it has 30 or just running the rhyme and short-cutting when I get the answer.
October: Easy. Halloween.
November: Most difficult, and/because it comes at the end of the rhyme
December: Easy: New Year's Eve
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby SimonMoon5 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:15 pm UTC

I'm amazed that the guy in the comic doesn't know how many days there are in October? Doesn't he celebrate holidays?

After all, Christmas is December 25th. And DEC 25 = OCT 31, so it's the same thing as October 31st, so October must have 31 days.

Also, Halloween.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby golden.number » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:29 pm UTC

Montago wrote:I still dont understand why we havent implemented the 13 month / 28 day calendar yet ??


I'm not sure of all the reasons, but I would imagine that the superstitions around the number 13 would be a big one. People would freak out about their children being born in the 13th month (and let's not even mention the poor children born on the 13th day of the 13th month). So, you can blame it all on King Phillip killing the Templar Knights on the 13th.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby ucim » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:31 pm UTC

Montago wrote:I still dont understand why we havent implemented the 13 month / 28 day calendar yet ??


We have. Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction. We also fixed the start of the calendar to align with the beginning of time, fixing a seaish amount of other mustard.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby DemonSlayer » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:40 pm UTC

Halloween is on October 31st...

Every...year...

October should be the one month that everyone knows has 31 days.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby orthogon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:53 pm UTC

If you ninja somebody, but in a spoiler, so they don't notice, is there a word for that? A spinja? Anyway, whatever it's called, I totally did it on the whole Halloween thing.

Does anyone find themselves saying things like "I can't make the 27th; it'll have to be a week later - so that's the 34th..."?
Thought not.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Whizbang » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:08 pm UTC

In Excel, the 34th is a perfectly valid day of the month.

Enter "=Date(2015,10,34)" and see what happens. Also there is a Zero day and negative days.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Rossegacebes » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:13 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:In Excel, the 34th is a perfectly valid day of the month.

Enter "=Date(2015,10,34)" and see what happens. Also there is a Zero day and negative days.


I use the zeroth day of a month to specify the last day of the previous month.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby HES » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:14 pm UTC

On as topical side note, it is nearing the end of the working day and it is well and truly dark out :(
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby DStaal » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:18 pm UTC

For everyone comparing versions of the poem, an interesting resource is the game Batman Arkham City - the Calendar man recites multiple versions. (I'm not sure exactly how many, but I think it's about 5.)

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby JetstreamGW » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:21 pm UTC

Man, all these fresh mnemonics. Seems more trouble than it's worth...

Thirty days hath September, April, June, and November.

Did you mention the month you need? If yes, then 30 days. If no then 31 days unless February :P

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:18 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Does anyone find themselves saying things like "I can't make the 27th; it'll have to be a week later - so that's the 34th..."?

I do that in my head, and then subtract the number of days in the first month to get the actual date.

So two weeks from today is October 40th, and since October has 31 days that means November 9th. Two weeks from November 26th will be December 10th.
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby orthogon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:30 pm UTC

I think gmal's point about the incantation having the months out of order is part of the issue, because you have to go through the whole list to be sure your month isn't in it. It's done to make it "rhyme", of course, though that isn't enough since nothing about the rhyme or meter helps you remember which of the "embers" are 30-dayers: you just have to learn. In which case you may as well just learn "April, June, September and November have 30 days"; you'd probably also be able to split it into the two pairs, and search the first two unless you're in the -bers. This would also make it sort of O(log N) as opposed to O(N) like the other methods. I'm using the notation loosely, but the incantation is basically a linear search, and the knuckle method also involves counting off the knuckles against the months. What's really needed is an O(1) method: the binary XOR method mentioned above is such a method but only works for a particular type of nerd.

Unfortunately the incantation has such a memetic hold that it seems to have prevented any better verbal mnemonic from coming along, even though almost anything would be better.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Keyman » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:43 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:If you ninja somebody, but in a spoiler, so they don't notice, is there a word for that? A spinja? Anyway, whatever it's called, I totally did it on the whole Halloween thing.

Does anyone find themselves saying things like "I can't make the 27th; it'll have to be a week later - so that's the 34th..."?
Thought not.

Me! Me! I do!

Sort of... I work at a bookstore, and have to call customers when their order's arrived. The "convention" it to mark the day you call, and then mark a date, one week, later to call again to remind them. So tonite when I go in, if there are orders to call, the order slip will show:

10/26 - SWC (spoke to customer)
Recall - 10/33 ___________

Then, if still not picked up by October 40th, the book goes back into regular stock.
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Djehutynakht » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:51 pm UTC

I don't get why he needs this for October.

Halloween has always made it clear to me exactly how many days October has.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby orthogon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:52 pm UTC

As Randall once said, thank you for making me feel less alone!

In terms of calendar reform, if you had February go between 29 and 30 days, you'd need 6 short months, so the odd months could be 31 and the evens 30 (or 29). Leap years would be quite elegant, with the 31-30 pattern repeating throughout. It would be a kind of minimal reform, but probably still too much to swallow.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Whizbang » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:56 pm UTC

I think we should do away with months altogether and just use Julian.

Today is the 299th day of the year.

Or at least only count weeks. Today is the 1st day of the 44th week of 2015. But then you start getting issues with weeks not neatly lining up into 365/366 days.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:18 pm UTC

We should just revert to Shire Reckoning.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:45 pm UTC

DemonSlayer wrote:Halloween is on October 31st...

Every...year...

October should be the one month that everyone knows has 31 days.


Well, technically, Halloween is the day before All-Saints' Day, which is Nov 1st. So if October had 17 days, then Halloween would be on Oct 17th. And we'd have alot fewer shopping days before Xmas :oops:
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby AceTracer » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:50 pm UTC

Image

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby jedrifkin » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:03 pm UTC

cal |tr -s ' ' '\n' |tail -n 1 works for the current month.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby mikrit » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:05 pm UTC

I am a knuckle counter. We have the poem in a Swedish version, but with three -embers that fit the rhyme, combined with having Swedish words for June and July that very nearly rhyme, I have never found the poem useful.

At my job, we once had an important costumer who wanted an assignment done and delivered by September 31. It was so tempting to look innocent and say: "Yes, we promise to deliver the next time the date is September 31". Would have given us many, many years of time.

No one has mentioned the French Revolutionary Calendar. I think it is the 5 Brumaire CCXXIV today. This is the only truly decimal calendar, with a ten-day "week", a ten-"hour" day, with 100 "minutes" per "hour" and 100 "seconds" per "minute". But twelve months, 30 days per month plus five or six extradays. A shame that it didn't become a world standard, really.

(Edited to fix typo.)

ETA 2: One can still make a French Revolutionary poem:

30 jours ont Vendémiaire, Brumaire, Frimaire,
Nivôse, Pluviôse, Ventôse,
Germinal, Floréal, Prairial,
Messidor, Thermidor et Fructidor.
Last edited by mikrit on Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:23 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Mikeski » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:18 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:We should just revert to Shire Reckoning.

Using "Internet Reckoning" works, too.

Today is September 8091, 1993.

(My Internet presence predates the Eternal September, but only by a year.)

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby mikrit » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:28 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:I think we should do away with months altogether and just use Julian.

Today is the 299th day of the year.


Yeah, but if we go Julian, we should go all the way. Today is Julian day 2457322 since the epoch start at 12h Jan 1, 4713 BC.

What are those things "year" and "month" of which you speak?
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:32 pm UTC

I don't do this. Mostly because...I'm lucky if I remember what month it is, let alone what day it is. So, I do what civilized people do, and pull out a cell phone.

If there's ever a point where I'm without all electronic aides, it is probable that civilization has ended, and I no longer care what month has 31 days.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Causality » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:37 pm UTC

Thirty days hath September,
All the rest I can't remember.

- Ogden Nash

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby bayerf » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:21 am UTC

Valarya wrote:
bayerf wrote:Another simple hack:

Look at a piano keyboard, 12 keys in an octave, 12 months in a year, starting chromatically at
F = january, white (long) keys correspond to long months, short keys to short months. So simple!


I've been playing the piano my entire life and have never heard this 'hack.' I love it!


Even more, the piano keyboard IS a calendar:
52 white keys - 52 weeks in a year
36 black keys - 36 decades in a year (3 per month)
88 keys altogether - 88 constellations in the sky
Coincidence?

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby dp2 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:58 am UTC

Montago wrote:I still dont understand why we havent implemented the 13 month / 28 day calendar yet ??

13 * 28 = 364

then every year we relax and chill for 1 day
every 4 years we relax and chill for 2 days

and EVERY FREAKING person on earth would know what date each week-number would have and everyone would know what day-of-week each date would have...

i dont get it... whyyyy do we keep this shitty Gregorian calendar ?

Let me guess: your birthday would be on a Saturday under that system.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby ijuin » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:01 am UTC

Nobody is going to agree to do away with the seven-day week (or to insert days that aren't a day of the week), because of religious reasons. The Sabbath comes every Saturday (or Sunday, or Friday, depending on whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or whatever), and "must" be every seven days, and to many strongly religious people, deviating from this ancient cycle is the same as spitting in God's face.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby serutan » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:23 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
orthogon wrote:Does anyone find themselves saying things like "I can't make the 27th; it'll have to be a week later - so that's the 34th..."?

I do that in my head, and then subtract the number of days in the first month to get the actual date.

So two weeks from today is October 40th, and since October has 31 days that means November 9th.


I do it that way too. Works quite well.
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:57 am UTC

Christians continue to calculate the date of Easter on the basis of the Jewish calendar, even while otherwise using variations of the Roman calendar for day-to-day living. There's no reason why we can't switch to a calendar system for most secular purposes that ignores the seven-day cycle, and not have people continue counting the seven-day cycle on top of it. Doesn't matter that the first Sunday of the year was a Onesday this year and will be a Twosday next year. If devoutly religious people need to rearrange their work schedules to take every seventh day off even if it would normally fall within the secular workweek... well, people of some religions whose important holidays aren't nationally recognized in their home countries already have to do that. Or, you know, people could just attend an evening service after work (or early morning before work, whatever).

Oh also I forgot to comment earlier:
keithl wrote:If we launch a WHOLE BUNCH of mass EASTWARD, we can slow the earth's rotation enough to have exactly 30 days per month. Of course, we will have to add leap seconds every minute or so, because we don't want to redefine the second.

Why would we redefine the second, or have to add leap seconds, just because we made the year around 452952 seconds shorter? Oh I see... you want to make the days longer, so there's fewer of them in a year, instead of making the year a few days shorter. The latter would work much better, though I guess it would be harder because we'd have to add like 86 yottagrams of mass to the earth. (That's about a hundred billion Mt. Everests).
Last edited by Pfhorrest on Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:08 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby PM 2Ring » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:01 am UTC

orthogon wrote:This is the integer division thing I was talking about. I love the way it seems to make sense to begin with, with recognisable numbers like 52 and 365... but then you start getting crazy shit like 306 and 10.

The Day Number Algorithm link wrote:All division is integer division, operator % is modulus.
Given integer y, m, d, calculate day number g as:

Code: Select all


function g
(y,m,d)
= (+ 9) % 12
= y - m/10
return 365
*+ y/- y/100 + y/400 + (m*306 + 5)/10 + ( d - 1 )
 

Here's a quick explanation (we used to have to do this sort of stuff back in Ancient Times before programming languages came with date libraries).

m = (m + 9) % 12 shifts the month cycle to put the February messiness at the end so it doesn't interfere with the other months. This makes March month zero.
y = y - m/10 adjusts the year number to be consistent with the adjusted month cycle.

In the adjusted month cycle we get this nice month length pattern: (31, 30, 31, 30, 31), (31, 30, 31, 30, 31), (31, feb). Each block of 5 months has 5×30 + 3 = 153 days, or 306 days per 10 months. So we can use (m*306 + 5)/10 to calculate the number of days in the year preceding month m, the + 5/10 rounds that number to the nearest integer.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby GulliNL » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:44 am UTC

Nobody rooting for the 28 hour day? If we are going to rearrange the calendar we might as well have all the benefits we can get.

I'm a knuckle counter too, but everytime I make a fist I automatically stick it in the air and become all revolutionary and stuff and forget what I was trying to do.
I'm not completely worthless; I can be used as a bad example.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby dtilque » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:49 am UTC

CharlieP wrote:Let's revert to the year starting in March - that way September, October, November and December mean something again, and the fiddly month is right at the end. :)


When the calendar started in March, the first day of the year was March 25th. Is that what you want to revert to?

There was a reason for that, by the way. At the time Caesar revised the Roman caledar, that was the Vernal Equinox.


ETA: I'm in favor of starting the calendar at the beginning of time. So what day did the Big Bang happen on? A Tuesday, wasn't it?
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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby da Doctah » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:58 am UTC

GulliNL wrote:Nobody rooting for the 28 hour day? If we are going to rearrange the calendar we might as well have all the benefits we can get.


No way. It's important that the number of seconds in a day be as close as possible to one-tenth the diameter of the sun in miles.

Just as Fahrenheit has the advantage that there are 180 degrees between boiling and freezing, which is exactly how many degrees there should be between opposites.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Flumble » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:18 am UTC

dtilque wrote:ETA: I'm in favor of starting the calendar at the beginning of time. So what day did the Big Bang happen on? A Tuesday, wasn't it?

That's why every calendar we have just starts at a random point in time.
I'm fine with the unix epoch as the beginning of time. Nothing weird happened on 1970-01-01 and most of our computers already use it. Except for network time, where the epoch of 1900 is used and windows time that starts in 1601 (which is not in the ANNO series).

Too bad all of these have leap seconds for some reason, so TAI is the only way to go.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby orthogon » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:24 am UTC

Flumble wrote:Nothing weird happened on 1970-01-01

[[Citation needed]]
Nothing at all? Not even anything slightly weird?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby MadeAccountToSayICountKnuckles » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:43 am UTC

I have no regrets about creating this account.

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Re: 1595: "30 Days Hath September"

Postby Flumble » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:57 am UTC

orthogon wrote:
Flumble wrote:Nothing weird happened on 1970-01-01

[[Citation needed]]
Nothing at all? Not even anything slightly weird?

I haven't seen any pictures of it, so it didn't happen.


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