1601: "Isolation"

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Tova
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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Tova » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:56 am UTC

It's another "someone is wrong on the internet" strip, but I happen to agree with this one, so I'm okay with it.

I AM SUCH A HYPOCRITE.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Whizbang » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:02 am UTC

Tova wrote:It's another "someone is wrong on the internet" strip, but I happen to agree with this one, so I'm okay with it.

I AM SUCH A HYPOCRITE.


Image

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Mikeski » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:02 am UTC

Scheod wrote:[black-and-white picture of everyone on a train reading a newspaper]
This picture always comes to mind every time I hear someone complain about cell phone usage.

And how often is this trope used in the media: everyone suddenly notices the famous person in their midst because, rather than interacting with each other, they're all reading the same newspaper with his face on page one?

It happens (twice) in Bridge of Spies, which takes place from 1956-1962.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby pixeldigger » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:31 pm UTC

I am not addicted to cell phone use, or magazine reading, but I have found that if you DON'T do it in public, invariably SOMEONE will want to talk to you.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby førtito » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:52 pm UTC

pixeldigger wrote:I am not addicted to cell phone use, or magazine reading, but I have found that if you DON'T do it in public, invariably SOMEONE will want to talk to you.


Indeed. Once an elderly woman asked me at the platform whether the train was going in the right direction, clarifying she did ask me since all other people had "these plugs in their ears".

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Whizbang » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:00 pm UTC

I once several times had other people tell me all about their day, job, children, pets, health issues (in great detail), bowel movements, aliens, sexual encounters, and, worst of all, politics.

All of which I don't want to hear from people I know, let alone some smelly person invading my personal space.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby fibonacci » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:33 pm UTC

The good news is you'll just be able to unfriend Roko's Basilisk when it keeps asking you to play candy crush.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby MOH » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:26 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:I have yet to see any compelling argument for the case that says immediate, physical proximity significantly improves communication, especially to the point where communication with strangers on the street/bus/train is preferred over communication with friends/relatives at a remote location.


Aside from all the non-verbal stuff you pick up on when communicating with someone face-to-face?

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:22 pm UTC

You really don't want to pick up the non-verbal stuff when someone is chatting with you from their toilet. They also tend to take particular exception when you try to talk face-to-face.


The main question is why would you prefer a stranger's non-verbal communication to a friend's chat?

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby speising » Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:39 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:You really don't want to pick up the non-verbal stuff when someone is chatting with you from their toilet. They also tend to take particular exception when you try to talk face-to-face.


The main question is why would you prefer a stranger's non-verbal communication to a friend's chat?

Because strangers can become new friends? In fact, how did you get those friends in the first place?

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:50 pm UTC

speising wrote:In fact, how did you get those friends in the first place?
You ask, on an online forum through which many of us have made many new friends without ever meeting them face-to-face...
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Flumble » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:06 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
speising wrote:In fact, how did you get those friends in the first place?
You ask, on an online forum through which many of us have made many new friends without ever meeting them face-to-face...

Those friends aren't real! (just kidding, I've made friends on the internet too, who(m) I hadn't met in person for a long time)

By the way, what constitutes a friend, actually?

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Keyman » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:31 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
speising wrote:In fact, how did you get those friends in the first place?
You ask, on an online forum through which many of us have made many new friends without ever meeting them face-to-face...

Those friends aren't real! (just kidding, I've made friends on the internet too, who(m) I hadn't met in person for a long time)

By the way, what constitutes a friend, actually?

A friend will help you move.

A really good friend will help you move... a body.
Nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. - A. Hamilton

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:37 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:By the way, what constitutes a friend, actually?
Pretty much however you care to define it, as long as the definition doesn't presuppose face-to-face interaction (in which case it's circular for the purposes of this discussion), I have multiple friends I have never met.

(Personally, I tend to feel that if I'd be comfortable inviting you to visit me and stay in my apartment for a few days, you're my friend. That is a subset of the people whom I'd offer crash space to if they needed it, which includes a lot of friends-of-friends and people I know better than they know me.)
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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:38 pm UTC

Plasma Mongoose wrote:As long as introverts exist, they will seek some means to isolate themselves from other people one way or another.


Us introverts are not seeking to isolate ourselves from people, hermits isolate, introverts filter. :lol:
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:40 pm UTC

We're not seeking long-term isolation the way a hermit would, but I think "isolate" is a perfectly apt word for what we sometimes need to do in group settings if the socialization is getting a bit overwhelming.
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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:58 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote: The Internet provides just the right amount of filter to turn this person from an annoyance into a great friend.

Today we can filter out what we are not interested in.
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:04 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We're not seeking long-term isolation the way a hermit would, but I think "isolate" is a perfectly apt word for what we sometimes need to do in group settings if the socialization is getting a bit overwhelming.


I agree, we don't want to cut all social input, just filter it down to what we want/need instead of trying to absorb everything.
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:06 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:Anybody who thinks that slabphones aren't making people more disconnected from the world around that has clearly never witnessed an iPhone zombie shuffling across a crosswalk at .05 MPH on a green light. Q.E.freaking.D.

I *never* saw someone do that with a book. No no no.

And I've certainly never done that... with a book... No no no.


Hey! I resemble that remark.
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:12 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I thought "take a hint" meant "the reason everybody's burying themselves in technology instead of talking to you is nobody wants to talk to you, go away".

It could be read as a dis at that particular stick man, but I prefer to read it as a more general "now that we have things to do by ourselves, the introverts of the world finally don't have to deal with you extroverted people, now stop complaining that we're not playing your favorite game anymore, now that we have alternatives, and leave us alone".


+1
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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:17 pm UTC

You can edit posts to add additional text, instead of creating four new posts in a row. And there is never a valid need to quote something simply so you can add "+1".
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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:19 pm UTC

speising wrote:
SuicideJunkie wrote:You really don't want to pick up the non-verbal stuff when someone is chatting with you from their toilet. They also tend to take particular exception when you try to talk face-to-face.


The main question is why would you prefer a stranger's non-verbal communication to a friend's chat?

Because strangers can become new friends? In fact, how did you get those friends in the first place?


I didn't get them while either one of us were on the toilet.
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:22 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
speising wrote:In fact, how did you get those friends in the first place?
You ask, on an online forum through which many of us have made many new friends without ever meeting them face-to-face...

Those friends aren't real! (just kidding, I've made friends on the internet too, who(m) I hadn't met in person for a long time)

By the way, what constitutes a friend, actually?


hmmm I'm more interested in what re-constitutes a friend... it was only a small lab accident, no really, very small.
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:33 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:You can edit posts to add additional text, instead of creating four new posts in a row. And there is never a valid need to quote something simply so you can add "+1".

So I got to the forum during a slow time, sometimes there will be several posts between my string of replies. How else can I give a +1, this fourm doesn't have an "upvote" button. :)
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:54 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
PsiSquared wrote:[...] brainless entertainment becomes cheaper and more thrilling every year.

... cheaper and more readily available, as does "brainful" entertainment, along with educational content, training, information, news, debate, art, music, ...

If there are problems, I think these are some of them:

1. It's not that we're socially isolated; it's just that the people with whom we're interacting aren't necessarily those who are physically next to us. Whether this is a problem or not comes down to manners: if the people around us are strangers on a train, they probably weren't going to interact anyway. If it's your family, colleagues or partner who you're snubbing, it's less of a good thing.


This. Sometimes I don't wish to engage with the people around me. Or they're alright, but I'd rather do something else instead. This might include engaging with other people at a distant location.

I don't see this as a problem. It's a simple choice. Yes, one of those choices, in some circumstances, may be rude to those around you. So? Rudeness is always an option in communication.

Izawwlgood wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:Anybody who thinks that slabphones aren't making people more disconnected from the world around that has clearly never witnessed an iPhone zombie shuffling across a crosswalk at .05 MPH on a green light. Q.E.freaking.D.

I *never* saw someone do that with a book. No no no.

And I've certainly never done that... with a book... No no no.


Yeah....I once almost ran into a deer because I was a reading a book while riding a bike.

Disconnecting is a choice. It doesn't require technology. Hell, one can stop paying attention to the world around them without a book or phone or anything, simply by being lost in one's own thoughts.

xtifr wrote:
Whizbang wrote:Reading is, like, my favorite thing to do while walking.

Indeed, one of the reasons that I still like paper books is that walking down the street reading a paper book doesn't seem to have the social stigma that walking down the street with a phone does. In fact, oddly, I still get people who inquire, "how can you read while walking?" despite the fact that the streets are now filled with people who are reading while walking. But apparently, if you do it with an actual physical book, it's some kind of astonishing stunt. Whereas, if you do it with an electronic device, you're just being an asshole or something.


That is a curious, but totally correct observation.

Being introverted, I find it annoying to note how many people will attempt to strike up a conversation with me due to the fact that I'm reading a book. Even if I also put on headphones, apparently the social signal of "go the hell away and don't talk to me" isn't quite strong enough. Ipad works better.

I prefer reading a book over the ipad though, so that's kind of annoying.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Flumble » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:53 pm UTC

david.windsor wrote:
Flumble wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
speising wrote:In fact, how did you get those friends in the first place?
You ask, on an online forum through which many of us have made many new friends without ever meeting them face-to-face...

Those friends aren't real! (just kidding, I've made friends on the internet too, who(m) I hadn't met in person for a long time)

By the way, what constitutes a friend, actually?


hmmm I'm more interested in what re-constitutes a friend... it was only a small lab accident, no really, very small.

According to the dictionary, glass of water should do.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:09 am UTC

david.windsor wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:You can edit posts to add additional text, instead of creating four new posts in a row. And there is never a valid need to quote something simply so you can add "+1".

So I got to the forum during a slow time, sometimes there will be several posts between my string of replies. How else can I give a +1, this fourm doesn't have an "upvote" button. :)


It does have a private-message function.

If you don't consider it important enough for you to write out that you approve of and wish to endorse someone else's message (or whatever else you wish to convey with a "+1") then why is it important enough for everyone else to read it?

It's not a good thing when it takes longer to skim through the quoted material in your post than it does to read your actual comment.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:43 am UTC

david.windsor wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:You can edit posts to add additional text, instead of creating four new posts in a row. And there is never a valid need to quote something simply so you can add "+1".

So I got to the forum during a slow time, sometimes there will be several posts between my string of replies.
And other times, there won't be, in which case you should just edit your last post.

How else can I give a +1, this fourm doesn't have an "upvote" button. :)
You can't.

That is intentional.
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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby ijuin » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:50 am UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:I'm reminded of Socrates in Phaedrus bitching about how literacy was destroying memory.


Well, can you or any of us here recite the entire Illiad from memory? People used to memorize long stuff like that back before the printing press made it possible to own your own copy of a text.

Plasma Mongoose wrote:As long as introverts exist, they will seek some means to isolate themselves from other people one way or another.


And as long as other people keep trying to harass introverts when they do try to socialize, then introverts will try to flee from social interaction.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby warcupine » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:36 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Well, can you or any of us here recite the entire Illiad from memory? People used to memorize long stuff like that back before the printing press made it possible to own your own copy of a text.

Most people didn't. Some did. Fast-forward to the present day, where, in a shocking twist... most people still don't, but some people still do. O brave new world!

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:46 pm UTC

But without any research supporting one way or the other, I would expect a connection. I write loads of things down in order not to forget them. An illiterate person would have to remember it all. Since brain functions get better with training this would mean that person would probably have a better memory.
Mikeski wrote:A "What If" update is never late. Nor is it early. It is posted precisely when it should be.

patzer's signature wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:I'm being quoted too much!

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby orthogon » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:27 pm UTC

Yeah, but these days our memories are fully exercised remembering our logins and passwords for all the various websites we access, each with their own rules, PIN numbers* for our cards and phones, and passwords for our computers and VPNs.

* Yeah. I said PIN numbers. Not PINs.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:25 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:Anecdotal case-in-point in support of electronic communication being preferred to physical proximity:
I have a close relative that, in person, drives me up the wall. They are gruff, loud, full of self-righteous opinions and derision toward dissenters, and in general is exhausting (for me) to be around. Yet we chat on Facebook all the time. We talk about family and friends, discuss current events, and share photos and recommendations of entertainment. We like a lot of the same things (movies, music, games, books, etc.) and often discuss these things at length. The Internet provides just the right amount of filter to turn this person from an annoyance into a great friend.

Wow. You've found the one person who's actually less insufferable on Facebook than IRL.
cephalopod9 wrote:Only on Xkcd can you start a topic involving Hitler and people spend the better part of half a dozen pages arguing about the quality of Operating Systems.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Flumble » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:31 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Yeah, but these days our memories are fully exercised remembering our logins and passwords for all the various websites we access, each with their own rules, PIN numbers* for our cards and phones, and passwords for our computers and VPNs.

* Yeah. I said PIN numbers. Not PINs.

What will happen when people start using biometrics en masse? What do we fill out memory with*?

*Yeah. I ended my sentence with a preposition. Now I'm as bad ass-as you.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:50 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:But without any research supporting one way or the other, I would expect a connection. I write loads of things down in order not to forget them. An illiterate person would have to remember it all. Since brain functions get better with training this would mean that person would probably have a better memory.


That assumes that the amount the illiterate person remembers is equal to the amount you either remember or can look up from your notes. It seems plausible that, while you may not remember as much as they do, the amount you have rapid access to is greater.

Indexing information to enable you to find a particular chunk of data in your references is, generally, going to take up less memory than the data itself would, and require less effort to memorise, so someone who writes things down for storage has more capacity than someone relying purely on organic memory.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby dg61 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:21 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:But without any research supporting one way or the other, I would expect a connection. I write loads of things down in order not to forget them. An illiterate person would have to remember it all. Since brain functions get better with training this would mean that person would probably have a better memory.


That assumes that the amount the illiterate person remembers is equal to the amount you either remember or can look up from your notes. It seems plausible that, while you may not remember as much as they do, the amount you have rapid access to is greater.

Indexing information to enable you to find a particular chunk of data in your references is, generally, going to take up less memory than the data itself would, and require less effort to memorise, so someone who writes things down for storage has more capacity than someone relying purely on organic memory.


It's not just an literacy-illiteracy thing(and in any case, the way oral epic poetry was transmitted didn't really work by "verbatim memorization" in the way we tend to use the term; it relied much more on a combination of knowing the general story with knowing a lot of stock phrases, lines, and formulas that fit the meter and could be inserted or combined as need). Prior to the widespread use of cheap printing text in many societies was rare and valuable enough that there was considerable value in memorizing things-why need to get up to go to the library's one copy of Aristotle or whatever every time you want to check what he says or quote him when you can memorize as much of what you expect to use on a regular basis and quote as needed?

More generally-the issue isn't so much "brute force memorization ability"(most human beings have that well in spades, and you probably find yourself accidentally memorizing all sorts of crap)" as the extensive use of techniques to systematize and choose what is memorized. Writing is one form of this (hence for example, memorizing something by copying it out); another form is setting it to verse and using dedicated memorization techniques like the medieval "Guidonian Hand"(a system for memorizing musical notes by essentially mapping them onto one's hand; think as though one were to memorize "Do re mi fa so la ti do" by mapping each syllable onto a knuckle and could simply check one's pitch by seeing where on the knuckle you wanted it to go) or the system of the "Memory Palace" .

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:59 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
orthogon wrote:Yeah, but these days our memories are fully exercised remembering our logins and passwords for all the various websites we access, each with their own rules, PIN numbers* for our cards and phones, and passwords for our computers and VPNs.

* Yeah. I said PIN numbers. Not PINs.

What will happen when people start using biometrics en masse? What do we fill out memory with*?

*Yeah. I ended my sentence with a preposition. Now I'm as bad ass-as you.


Endless catchy pop songs and advertising jingles.

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Krealr » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:33 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We're not seeking long-term isolation the way a hermit would, but I think "isolate" is a perfectly apt word for what we sometimes need to do in group settings if the socialization is getting a bit overwhelming.


I like this explanation of introverts.

http://romanjones.deviantart.com/art/How-to-Live-with-Introverts-PDF-available-291305760

(It certainly matches how I usually feel well)

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby david.windsor » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:17 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Flumble wrote:
orthogon wrote:What will happen when people start using biometrics en masse? What do we fill out memory with*?

Endless catchy pop songs and advertising jingles.


The entire script of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" with all required silly voices.
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1601: "Isolation"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:11 am UTC

My favorite "off my lawn" standby is this: "People are so dependent on technology that they can't even memorize phone numbers".
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

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