1647: Diacritics

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby orthogon » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:21 pm UTC

CharlieP wrote:
orthogon wrote:My guess is that the psychological process was something along the lines of: it's still a loan-word; it's foreign; it's written in italics; it hasn't yet been granted Indefinite Leave to Remain, let alone citizenship. It ought to be pronounced in a foreign way, though that needn't be based on the language it was adopted from. In this case the anglicised French pronunciation would be indistinguishable from the common English word fort, so let's go with "fortay".


But doesn't the fact that the OED says "formerly /fɔːt/" suggest it originally came across from French unharmed?

Yes, absolutely; the process I'm imagining would have happened later. It looks as though the spelling changed sometime in the late 18th Century, and that probably led to the pronunciation change. Perhaps people saw it written down and assumed it was a different word. Arguably it is a different word, albeit a similar one with identical etymology and synonymous in meaning.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby ps.02 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:21 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
ps.02 wrote:What? You use Compose more often than Ctrl? Must be a vi user.

Did you misread xtifr's post, or do you map Caps Lock to Ctrl instead?

The latter. Something as easy to reach as the key above left shift is completely wasted on Caps Lock. xtifr uses it for Compose, I use it for Ctrl. Hence my next comment, as vi makes far less use of Ctrl as does emacs, the One True Editor.
Reaching Ctrl in its conventional, non-home-row location is not even a little bit difficult, so there'd be no reason to remap it even if you use it constantly.

It sure makes a difference to me. Especially for things like Ctrl-w or Ctrl-t, as I never developed the habit of using the right-side Ctrl key. (Which is why I remapped that one to Multi_key, aka Compose.)
(I have an old netbook with a broken 'o' key and I got to be so good at typing Ctrl-v with an 'o' in the clipboard that I could type faster that way than a lot of people with completely functional computers.)

Nice. And I suppose Alt-7-9 when you need a capital O?
if you're typing a lot of stuff in other languages, Compose likely is more commonly used than Ctrl.

Maybe. I'm reliably informed that informal French is often just typed with pure ASCII. Likewise informal German, but with some transliterations (e.g., ue for ü). I don't know how common this is in other "ASCII plus a few diacritics" languages.

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:44 pm UTC

"Forte" as in "not my forte" didn't come to English from modern French, it came from old French, which didn't have silent letters. The correct way to pronounce "forte" in France at the time the word made it's way into English is with a pronounced, unaccented, unstressed e, just as most English speakers still do today.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby orthogon » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:53 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:"Forte" as in "not my forte" didn't come to English from modern French, it came from old French, which didn't have silent letters. The correct way to pronounce "forte" in France at the time the word made it's way into English is with a pronounced, unaccented, unstressed e, just as most English speakers still do today.

That may be the case (though to my ear the most common English pronunciation renders the 'e' as a diphthong), except that originally it didn't have the 'e' at all, silent or otherwise. The 'e' was apparently added later to make it seem "more French". (The OED cites locale and morale as other examples of this phenomenon of transgender loanwords).
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:29 pm UTC

CharlieP wrote:
orthogon wrote:My guess is that the psychological process was something along the lines of: it's still a loan-word; it's foreign; it's written in italics; it hasn't yet been granted Indefinite Leave to Remain, let alone citizenship. It ought to be pronounced in a foreign way, though that needn't be based on the language it was adopted from. In this case the anglicised French pronunciation would be indistinguishable from the common English word fort, so let's go with "fortay".


But doesn't the fact that the OED says "formerly /fɔːt/" suggest it originally came across from French unharmed?

No, because the French still know what 'r' means.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby orthogon » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:04 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
CharlieP wrote:But doesn't the fact that the OED says "formerly /fɔːt/" suggest it originally came across from French unharmed?

No, because the French still know what 'r' means.

Hmm. Well, they give 'r' a value. It's not the same value it has in American English. And in the rhotically-challenged dialects of British English the letter itself is silent, but it does affect the pronunciation of neighbouring vowels. (In earlier times, it would probably have become a diacritic). In other words, 'r' means something different in the three languages. So do most of the other letters. And, if I might add, respect for citing French, of all languages, on the side of pronouncing silent letters :-P
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:13 pm UTC

I suppose I should have said they know what *that* 'r' means.

Still, the French pronunciation is different enough from the way most British people pronounce "fort" that it is still a bit silly to call that "unharmed".
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:51 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:The 'e' was apparently added later to make it seem "more French".
Right you are.

I was thinking "from French fort 'strong point (of a sword blade)' " would make the adjective feminine, because "sword" (épée) is female, but no, the adjective has to agree with "point", which is male.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:53 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Just keeping it auditorily distinct from fort/fought/thought sounds like a good enough reason for adding an accent.

wort ða thuck brits. first "r", now you can't pronounce "th" either?
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby orthogon » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:04 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Just keeping it auditorily distinct from fort/fought/thought sounds like a good enough reason for adding an accent.

wort ða thuck brits. first "r", now you can't pronounce "th" either?

No, that puzzled me, too. There are some accents in which thought would be pronounced like fought, but it's decidedly nonstandard.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:41 pm UTC

I think it's one of those many not-standard-but-it's-been-around-for-centuries things.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby xtifr » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:20 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
ps.02 wrote:What? You use Compose more often than Ctrl? Must be a vi user.

Did you misread xtifr's post, or do you map Caps Lock to Ctrl instead?

The latter. Something as easy to reach as the key above left shift is completely wasted on Caps Lock. xtifr uses it for Compose, I use it for Ctrl. Hence my next comment, as vi makes far less use of Ctrl as does emacs, the One True Editor.
Reaching Ctrl in its conventional, non-home-row location is not even a little bit difficult, so there'd be no reason to remap it even if you use it constantly.

It sure makes a difference to me. Especially for things like Ctrl-w or Ctrl-t, as I never developed the habit of using the right-side Ctrl key. (Which is why I remapped that one to Multi_key, aka Compose.)

Although when I started using computers, Ctrl was normally located where Caps Lock is currently found, I've been using it in its below-shift location for so long now that switching again would be way more of a pain in the ass than it's worth. (I was a contractor for one of the companies that created some of the software released with the original PC, so I've been using PC-style keyboards for longer than they've been on the market.)

As it happens, I use both vi and emacs, though I'm a lot more fluent in the latter.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:21 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Just keeping it auditorily distinct from fort/fought/thought sounds like a good enough reason for adding an accent.

wort ða thuck brits. first "r", now you can't pronounce "th" either?

If pronounced with care, "fought" and "thought" will sound different; in casual conversation, the difference often gets lost.

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:31 pm UTC

*in some dialects
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby orthogon » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:48 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I think it's one of those many not-standard-but-it's-been-around-for-centuries things.

Maybe nonstandard isn't quite the right term. I associate the th->f pronunciation with the cockney accent (as in Lionel Bart's musical Fings ain't what they used t'be; actually for consistency it ought to be "what vey used t'be"*). It's not only a regional accent, it's low prestige and likely to be perceived as uneducated. Again, I'm fumbling for the linguistic terms here, no offence intended to anyone who has this accent.

* Incidentally, I always understood that the title number from the show was the basis of that piano duet for three hands that lots of people play without knowing what it's called. The duet has a slightly different tune, probably modified to be easier to play; and the original has an AABA structure whereas the duet stays doggedly on the A section; again presumably the bridge was too difficult for novice pianists to manage. On the other hand it might be a different tune altogether. Google didn't help last time I tried to investigate.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:58 pm UTC

I think nonstandard is an appropriate term, I just think it's often worth mentioning when something is nonstandard for reasons other than being a new innovation in the language.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby CharlieP » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:50 am UTC

orthogon wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I think it's one of those many not-standard-but-it's-been-around-for-centuries things.

Maybe nonstandard isn't quite the right term. I associate the th->f pronunciation with the cockney accent (as in Lionel Bart's musical Fings ain't what they used t'be; actually for consistency it ought to be "what vey used t'be"*). It's not only a regional accent, it's low prestige and likely to be perceived as uneducated. Again, I'm fumbling for the linguistic terms here, no offence intended to anyone who has this accent.


When I was backpacking around Australia in 1997 I ended up travelling in a small group, amongst whose number was a young man from Portsmouth who pronounced 'th' as 'f' this way. When pushed it turned out he couldn't actually make the 'th' sound without genuine difficulty, as he'd never been taught to, thanks to growing up in an area where it wasn't used in speech, and going to the kind of school where it wouldn't have been "corrected". I found that both fascinating and incredibly sad.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby ijuin » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:48 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:
xtifr wrote:Otherwise, I'd have to say that my en_US keyboard with Caps Lock mapped to Compose is the one with the advantage. :)

What? You use Compose more often than Ctrl? Must be a vi user.

(My Multi_key is below right shift. I don't see how a keyboard without Control_L on the home row can even be considered usable.)



What is this "Compose" key? or "Multi" key? I don't think I have seen any keyboards using those . . .

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:12 pm UTC

Wikipedia is your friend. Personally, I find dead keys awkward and find AltGr to be enough for my diacritics-and-awkward-symbols needs....
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby ps.02 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:02 pm UTC

CharlieP wrote:When I was backpacking around Australia in 1997 I ended up travelling in a small group, amongst whose number was a young man from Portsmouth who pronounced 'th' as 'f' this way. When pushed it turned out he couldn't actually make the 'th' sound without genuine difficulty, as he'd never been taught to

Myke Hurley from the world of podcasting-for-profit does this. (Though I don't know if it's that he can't make the ovver sound, or just doesn't bovver.) I like to think I'm generally pretty tolerant of mother tongue accents, but this one hasn't yet ceased to bug me. To my American ears it just always sounds like an early-childhood speech impediment. But I suppose it says something good about the modern Internet world, that someone whose paid job is wrapped up in public speaking feels no need to coach himself toward a more standard or higher-class-marker accent.

ijuin wrote:What is this "Compose" key? or "Multi" key? I don't think I have seen any keyboards using those . . .

Copper Bezel gave the obligatory link (xkcd is all about the wikipediae), but here's my take:

ASCII has 95 printable characters, and you'll notice the "symbol-producing" part of your keyboard has about 48 keys. Not coincidentally, 95 is almost exactly double 48, so each key except Space needs to produce 2 symbols. Obviously this is where the Shift key comes in.

So what if you need some non-ASCII characters? One way is to define another Shift-like key, called AltGr, usually just right of the spacebar. You can hold down AltGr and hit a letter and get a different symbol, depending on your language-specific keyboard layout. For example, on a German keyboard, AltGr+o might give you ö. Shift+AltGr+o would then be Ö. So now the physical O key can produce not two but four symbols.

But say you speak French and you need all of E e É é È è Ë ë Ê ê Œ œ. Now the limitations of AltGr start to show. I don't actually know how a typical French keyboard layout solves this problem. But the Compose key doesn't just modify one other physical key, but two. This opens up the possibilities considerably. Probably for ergonomics reasons, Compose works as distinct keypresses rather than holding it down while pressing the other keys. Thus to get é, you type <Compose> then ' then e. Likewise œ is <Compose> o e, and þ is <Compose> t h. (Thorn represents a th sound in Icelandic and formerly other Germanic languages. Also useful in emoticons.)

Compose is somewhat less efficient then AltGr. It's more keystrokes. So, many language-specific keyboard layouts use AltGr instead. But if you're like me and you just want to be able to type a wide variety of ASCII-derived characters from many different languages, without switching layouts, Compose is pretty handy. I love that if a combination has been defined at all, I can almost always guess it. How to get ç from Portuguese or Provençal? Compose-,-c. Ł from Polish? Compose-/-Shift+L. ð from Icelandic or Old English? Compose-d-h. Å from physics? Well, technically, the Angstrom unit has its own Unicode symbol, for reasons I've never understood, but it looks exactly like the Swedish Å, which is Compose-o-Shift+A.

(As for Multi_key: that's just another name for Compose, used in the X Window System.)

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:24 pm UTC

I have some keys remapped on my laptop, but I don't remember how I did it. Any recommendations for the simplest way to get Compose (instead of capslock, probably) on my Win10 desktop?
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:39 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:Myke Hurley from the world of podcasting-for-profit does this. (Though I don't know if it's that he can't make the ovver sound, or just doesn't bovver.) I like to think I'm generally pretty tolerant of mother tongue accents, but this one hasn't yet ceased to bug me. To my American ears it just always sounds like an early-childhood speech impediment. But I suppose it says something good about the modern Internet world, that someone whose paid job is wrapped up in public speaking feels no need to coach himself toward a more standard or higher-class-marker accent.
I was listening to a TED Talk (audio podcast version), the other day, with some woman who continually pronounced "ask" as "aks". I wouldn't go so far as to say that it disqualified her to public speaking (I think she was talking about dealing with "Father/Daughter Prom Night" problems with daughters with fathers couldn't attend because they were in prison by getting permission to take the daughters into the prisons so that their fathers could dance with their daughters... which is something worth discussing more but might at least explain her default mode of speech), but it did rather make my brain flinch whenever she said it, more than anything else she said...

ASCII has 95 printable characters
...yes, if restricting yourself to the 7-bit original. Although realistically most people would have been at least using their own system variation of 8-bit Extended ASCII (e.g. ISO-8859-1 /Latin1 - to at least include the £ character) for a number of decades, now... And these days you probably won't even get 'mistranslation' errors as a one codepage is blindly used to display something written abroad by someone with a different one! ;)

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby ps.02 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:21 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
ASCII has 95 printable characters
...yes, if restricting yourself to the 7-bit original. Although realistically most people would have been at least using their own system variation of 8-bit Extended ASCII

Yes, well, the term "Extended ASCII" led to widespread misunderstandings, I think. Like, for example, that there is a single Extended ASCII, based on CP437 or whatever. I saw those sorts of assumptions a lot in the 90s. But anyway, when I say ASCII I mean ASCII, the "7-bit original" as you put it. Latin-1 is not a different form of ASCII, it is ASCII plus another 95 or 96 characters. (And don't get me started on Microsoft taking Latin-1, filling in the gap between 127 and 160 with more stuff, and acting as though that were standard. They atoned for it later, somewhat, by leading the charge toward universal Unicode support. (Yes, I know Plan 9 got there first, nobody cares about Plan 9.))

But... my post did incorrectly imply that all keyboard layouts would start with the ability to type every printable ASCII character. (You could call this my "95" Thesis.) Not true. As you point out, there's nothing sacred about the full ASCII set, and it makes sense in many places for various non-ASCII characters such as £ (Compose-hyphen-L, for me) to take precedence in ease of typing. Mea culpa.

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Flumble » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:35 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I have some keys remapped on my laptop, but I don't remember how I did it. Any recommendations for the simplest way to get Compose (instead of capslock, probably) on my Win10 desktop?

I'd recommend searching for "windows 10" compose key, leading to WinCompose which hopefully supports win10.
I'm inclined to replace the alt-latin layout (which installs as a native keyboard layout and supports most diacritics for latiṇ̨̧̦̣̣̃́̄̃̃̆̌̂̈ and additional leþðers) now that I've seen WinCompose.

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:54 am UTC

Flumble wrote:which hopefully supports win10
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby ijuin » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:37 am UTC

Strangely enough, I have never figured out how to make the ~ or the ` appear over a letter as I type . . . (using standard USA keyboard).

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:48 am UTC

ijuin wrote:Strangely enough, I have never figured out how to make the ~ or the ` appear over a letter as I type . . . (using standard USA keyboard).

Sharpies? (Warning: Not portable between computer platforms; Not portable between computers; Not even portable once your text scrolls up the screen! But it's a basic workaround. ;) )

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:47 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Strangely enough, I have never figured out how to make the ~ or the ` appear over a letter as I type . . . (using standard USA keyboard).

The standard US keyboard doesn't have that option, so it's not particularly strange.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Neil_Boekend » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:55 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Strangely enough, I have never figured out how to make the ~ or the ` appear over a letter as I type . . . (using standard USA keyboard).

Not exactly what you ask, but this is a handy workaround for many. It places the chosen character in the copy-paste buffer.
By the way, the standard keyboard setting here in the Netherlands has that option. If you use it and type a : followed by an i you'll get an ï. I don't like it because you have to type a " " after a lot of punctuation characters in order to get the character you typed, but many people love it. Despite Dutch not using many diacritics (we only use two points above some characters for pronounciation clarity.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:30 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:Not exactly what you ask, but this is a handy workaround for many. It places the chosen character in the copy-paste buffer.
Running "charmap" (or your own system equivalent) is less user-friendly in layout, but also works without drilling out to an external web-page. Îţ‛š мŸ ŗāρĩđ ŵåŷ øƒ çħơơςٳŋğ őďď ţĥįņġś…

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby orthogon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:17 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Wikipedia is your friend. Personally, I find dead keys awkward and find AltGr to be enough for my diacritics-and-awkward-symbols needs....

I keep forgetting that Alt-Gr is even a thing, but then I got really excited when I saw all those lovely characters you can get. But then it turns out that I have the "UK & Ireland" keyboard, which infuriatingly offers only a subset of the Alt-Gr goodness available on the US-International keyboard. Basically, it has the five fully-fledged vowels with acute accents, but strictly they're "fadas" used for writing Irish. As for grave accents, tildes, cedillas and the like, we can go whistle. What is that all about? Once you've got this modifier key, why the blinking flip wouldn't you make all the keys do something? Why not make them do the same as in the US-International? Is this an act of deliberate isolationism? Is this preparation for Brexit?

The best bet appears to be UK-Extended, which I've enabled on my PC, but it uses a bizarre combination of Alt-Gr + key, Alt-Gr + key forming a deadkey, and backtick (`) which is a permanent dead-key. And it still doesn't cover everything, and doesn't have useful characters like the degree symbol or µ. And messing with backtick isn't great if you want to write bash scripts. Why didn't they make the grave accent Alt-Gr+\ or something?

Compose might be good, but I find the idea of installing extra software just to be able to use the keyboard a bit clunky. And the trouble with all this is, what I really want is a straightforward way of doing things on any machine; not just my main PC that I've lovingly configurated over the years.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:33 pm UTC

My standard US keyboard lets me put accents and tildes over things by typing option-` or option-n and then the thing the diacritical goes over. Same for other diacriticals: umlauts are option-y, carats are option-i, etc.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:58 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:I keep forgetting that Alt-Gr is even a thing


For as long as I've bothered with it (by whatever codepage/keyboard setting I've used, whilst knowing that AltGr even matters), "AltGr+<foo>" has basically always been a shortcut for "Ctrl+Alt+<foo>". (Where <foo>≠Del, that is... and thank you again Charmap, for "≠", although "!=" would of course have been far easier to type.)

Ctrl+Alt+E: é
AltGr+E: é
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+E: É
AltGr+Shift+E: É
Ctrl+Alt+4: €
AltGr+4: €
Ctrl+Alt+<that one weird key with the back-apostrophe on it>: ¦ (broken pipe1, if that actually comes out at all differently on your display)
AltGr+<towkwtboi>: ¦ (ditto)


And nothing (so far as I can tell) gives me the £-sign, except for Shift-3, which is the key with the £ above it in a British setup. But of course that means that I don't need it... ;)

("€"/euro displays as "?" in DOS, or perhaps never even prints as anything but a question mark, as it remains so when marking/copying as "?" into this textbox, even though the identical pipes - see footnotes - paste as 'what they should be'.)

For reference, my hardware is configured as bog-standard "Standard 101/102-Key of Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard" and actually is a generically standard keyboard with UK keytops, whilst my primary Regionalisation standard is set to "English (United Kingdom)", location (not that this one matters) is "United Kingdom", Input Languages is just "English (United Kingdom)/Keyboard/United Kingdom" and Language for non-Unicode programs is "English (United Kingdom)" with a truly confusing but default smattering of the default Code Page Conversion Tables ticked. i.e. the full-on British English setup that ensures you always get what you expect and don't have to type # for $, or vice-versa.


TL;DR ...erm. Well, never mind.


1 i.e. not the "|" from Shift-\, although the pipe printed on the key, above the "\" is a broken-pipe, whilst the line printed off to the side of the "`"/backtick key is a solid-pipe. Which has been the way that it has been in DOS2/Windows for as long as I can ever remember...

2 Although, trying it at the command-line just now, while "dir | more" (solid here, but looks broken in DOS!) works as expected, "dir ¦ more" (broken here, looks identically broken to the other version, in DOS!) does not3 work.

3 Actually, it does, since at least XP onwards treating it as separate space-separated 'attempts', unless you quote-surround any (and all) space-containing LFNs. So DIR here works like typing "dir <a non-existent directory name> <another non-existent directory name>", until and unless I create a "¦" and/or "more" directories for it to have something to list for either slot... But the main point is that the pipe that is identical-looking is not a functional pipe, regardless of what it looks like. As everybody here doubtless will already anticipate...

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby xtifr » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:02 am UTC

ps.02 wrote: But the Compose key doesn't just modify one other physical key, but two.


Two or more. With X11, you used to type compose-dash-dash to get an em-dash, but there was no way to get en-dash, so they changed it, and now you have to type compose followed by three dashes to get an em-dash, but you can type compose-dash-dash-dot to get an en-dash.

Another three-key sequence I discovered while poking around semi-randomly: compose-1-1-0 gives ⅒. (Although, curiously, this only seems to work in a terminal window, not in the browser. I have no idea why.)
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby ijuin » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:14 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:My standard US keyboard lets me put accents and tildes over things by typing option-` or option-n and then the thing the diacritical goes over. Same for other diacriticals: umlauts are option-y, carats are option-i, etc.


The "option" key is only available for Mac keyboards, not Windows keyboards.

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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:53 am UTC

ijuin wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:My standard US keyboard lets me put accents and tildes over things by typing option-` or option-n and then the thing the diacritical goes over. Same for other diacriticals: umlauts are option-y, carats are option-i, etc.


The "option" key is only available for Mac keyboards, not Windows keyboards.

So by "standard" you mean "Windows". Which was my point of contention.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:15 am UTC

No, by "standard" we just mean "not the proprietary Apple keyboard".
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:39 am UTC

I'm typing this on an Insignia brand keyboard, with a proprietary (not standard) Windows key on it and everything, but it's plugged into a MacBook.

Alt-`, o = ò
Alt-e, o = ó
Alt-i, o = ô
Alt-u, o = ö
Alt-n, o = õ

...etc.

It's the software that makes the difference, not the keyboard, and just because Windows doesn't make it easy to type diacritics doesn't mean "US Standard Keyboards" can't type them.
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:46 am UTC

Fine then, "not proprietary Apple keyboard software".
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Re: 1647: Diacritics

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:51 am UTC

Yeah, from context, we were pretty clearly talking about Windows and Linux keyboards specifically. "Standard US" would be the subset of layouts within those categories. They're different layouts, but they're designed around the same set of expectations for what keys a keyboard is likely to contain, which is not true of OSX ones.
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