1676: "Full-Width Justification"

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rmsgrey
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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed May 04, 2016 10:39 pm UTC

The Moomin wrote:
orthogon wrote:
StormAngel wrote:
The Moomin wrote:Is there not an issue of the snake eating nearby full-stops, increasing in length, and ruining the justification of the document?

No, I believe you're thinking of worms

You don't need non-breaking worms: if a worm breaks over a line, a new head and tail are automatically added.


I find the problem with using worms is that the resultant falling concrete donkeys tend to displace the text erratically.


And you can't do numbered lists properly - they keep going 1, 2, 5...

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed May 04, 2016 11:20 pm UTC

Three, sir!

...sorry, reflex.
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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby mfb » Wed May 04, 2016 11:50 pm UTC

  = non-breaking snake's place

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby PM 2Ring » Thu May 05, 2016 8:16 am UTC

linotype wrote:My Linotype keyboarding manual talks quite a bit about justification. On a Linotype, automatic justification was achieved by adjusting the space between words with variable width spaces that would evenly divide up the space when the line was sent to cast. [...]


ETAOIN SHRDLU

Many years ago, I was given a copy of Linotype Machine Principles, by the Mergenthaler Linotype Company, copyright 1940. I treasure this book, not only because Linotype machines were wonderful things, but because this manual is a masterful example of technical documentation. I don't think I've ever read any modern manual for hardware or software that approaches its quality of clear and methodical exposition. IMHO, all documentation writers could benefit from reading this manual.

gcgcgcgc
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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby gcgcgcgc » Thu May 05, 2016 8:51 am UTC

Just pad out the words on the shorter line with extra vowels

On the relationship
Beeeeeeetweeeeen
Deindustrialization

Etc

AndrewGPaul
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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby AndrewGPaul » Thu May 05, 2016 11:07 am UTC

I wonder if in this instance, a better solution would be to change "the relationship between deindustrialisation and the growth of ..." to "the relationship between the growth of ... and deindustrialisation ". That might be easier to justify into this narrow column.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Marsh'n » Thu May 05, 2016 12:08 pm UTC

ThemePark wrote:
cellocgw wrote:
ThemePark wrote:There can be no Unicode snakes without Unicode ladders.


I see what you did there. On this side of the pond, it was changed to 'chutes,' so you'll have to chute your snakes.

And then throw them off this mother-effing plane onto the mother-effing chute? :D


Wouldn't the norm be to throw them off the plane without a chute?

When we get the unicode(s) I hope someone will design a font called Zapf Dingsnakes. Just 'cuz.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby orthogon » Thu May 05, 2016 12:42 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
linotype wrote:My Linotype keyboarding manual talks quite a bit about justification. On a Linotype, automatic justification was achieved by adjusting the space between words with variable width spaces that would evenly divide up the space when the line was sent to cast. [...]


ETAOIN SHRDLU

Many years ago, I was given a copy of Linotype Machine Principles, by the Mergenthaler Linotype Company, copyright 1940. I treasure this book, not only because Linotype machines were wonderful things, but because this manual is a masterful example of technical documentation. I don't think I've ever read any modern manual for hardware or software that approaches its quality of clear and methodical exposition. IMHO, all documentation writers could benefit from reading this manual.


YMMV, but personally I admire the documentation for FFTW, clearly written by people who have a mastery not only of their topic but of the English language too. It's direct without being overly informal, and has jokes and humorous footnotes that enhance readability without detracting from the clarity of the prose. They also manage to convey a sense of wonder and humility at their creation:
FFTW wrote:FFTW's code generator also produces new algorithms that we do not completely understand.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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DennyMo
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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby DennyMo » Thu May 05, 2016 12:58 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:There's one valuable strategy that's missing:

Adjust the margins so the text wraps better.

I logged in just to say that, and then you beat me to it. :D

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu May 05, 2016 3:44 pm UTC

AndrewGPaul wrote:I wonder if in this instance, a better solution would be to change "the relationship between deindustrialisation and the growth of ..." to "the relationship between the growth of ... and deindustrialisation ". That might be easier to justify into this narrow column.
For manual typesetting by a competent writer/editor (sounds like a mish-mash job, in anything larger than a small-town newspaper/leaflet-producer where at least half the jobs are undertaken equally by at least half the employees, and the other employee is probably the spouse of the first and knows clearly enough what's in their mind) this is equivalent to the Filler solution, but perhaps with an expected level of competance.

I'm not sure I'd trust a Word Macro (or even anything in emacs) to correctly exploit such opportunities, though. It must catch potential swaps that are constrained to order by, for example, follow-up text such as "These two flags can be identified by being predominently red and vermillion, respectively." And even if syntactically linked to prior(/following) text about two swappable flag-related entities, allowing the 'respectivelies' to be switched in lockstep, what if reversing."red" and "vermillion" generates a new line-feed crisis?

(Then there's something (contrivable) like "The correct order is, A, Bbbbbbbbbbb, Cc", with no guarantee that adding in something like "reverse(d)" can even be done in a useful manner, and even if it can it may also just switch (back?) the distribution problems from offset, in the attempt to mitigate the original typographical 'mess'.)

The solution is clearly to have no line-breaks, and thus no justification is necessary. Write your text in a continuous spiral, or some variation upon setting out upon a space-covering Hilbert Curve, instead, perhaps...

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Kashida

Postby feldgendler » Thu May 05, 2016 8:10 pm UTC

Snakes are actually used as a justification strategy in Arabic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashida

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Coyne » Thu May 05, 2016 10:42 pm UTC

Well, I had to think about this one a bit. But in the end I concluded that snakes (and a goodly number of the other options) aren't really justification; they'er kind of like fake orgasms.
In all fairness...

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri May 06, 2016 8:00 am UTC

orthogon wrote:YMMV, but personally I admire the documentation for FFTW, clearly written by people who have a mastery not only of their topic but of the English language too. It's direct without being overly informal, and has jokes and humorous footnotes that enhance readability without detracting from the clarity of the prose. They also manage to convey a sense of wonder and humility at their creation:
FFTW wrote:FFTW's code generator also produces new algorithms that we do not completely understand.


Nice. I almost wish I had a need to do Fourier transforms so I could use it. :) I've only had a brief look at it, but they already had me at the name: Fastest Fourier Transform in the West. And I just saw this example of their humour:
We recommend that you read this tutorial in order.1
[1] You can read the tutorial in bit-reversed order after computing your first transform.

jrc14
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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby jrc14 » Fri May 06, 2016 8:06 am UTC

The Freda ebook reader for Windows 10 (here: https://www.microsoft.com/store/apps/9wzdncrfj43b) now implements snake-justification. For best results, use the 'settings' screen to switch 'hyphenation' to 'no', 'use snakes' to 'yes', and choose a large font size (33 or so). Then pick a book with long words and justified layout, and read it in a narrow window.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby ucim » Fri May 06, 2016 12:41 pm UTC

jrc14 wrote:The Freda ebook reader for Windows 10 (here: https://www.microsoft.com/store/apps/9wzdncrfj43b) now implements snake-justification.
That was fast!

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Rombobjörn » Fri May 06, 2016 4:22 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:The solution is clearly to have no line-breaks, and thus no justification is necessary. Write your text in a continuous spiral, or some variation upon setting out upon a space-covering Hilbert Curve, instead, perhaps...

A true master can indeed manage without any line breaks at all. Drawing snakes between the words is entirely backwards though. You're supposed to write the text on the snakes.

Those who aren't quite so masterly sometimes find that they have to break the text after all.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Yu_p » Fri May 06, 2016 6:31 pm UTC

jrc14 wrote:The Freda ebook reader for Windows 10 (here: https://www.microsoft.com/store/apps/9wzdncrfj43b) now implements snake-justification.


For ebooks, where outside of small-screen hostile PDFs, justification is never manually adjusted, what we really need is snakes that eat OCR errors. I am reading Dragon Age: Asunder right now, and the OCR artifacts are becoming rediculous ("it is my plea sure"). (I also recently read an article from 2012 where the author complained about ebooks being priced the same as printed books at the time, but not even receiving proofreading after OCR).

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri May 06, 2016 7:43 pm UTC

Yu_p wrote:For ebooks, where outside of small-screen hostile PDFs, justification is never manually adjusted, what we really need is snakes that eat OCR errors. I am reading Dragon Age: Asunder right now, and the OCR artifacts are becoming rediculous ("it is my plea sure"). (I also recently read an article from 2012 where the author complained about ebooks being priced the same as printed books at the time, but not even receiving proofreading after OCR).

I'll just leave this here...

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri May 06, 2016 7:45 pm UTC

Yu_p wrote:
jrc14 wrote:The Freda ebook reader for Windows 10 (here: https://www.microsoft.com/store/apps/9wzdncrfj43b) now implements snake-justification.


For ebooks, where outside of small-screen hostile PDFs, justification is never manually adjusted, what we really need is snakes that eat OCR errors. I am reading Dragon Age: Asunder right now, and the OCR artifacts are becoming rediculous ("it is my plea sure"). (I also recently read an article from 2012 where the author complained about ebooks being priced the same as printed books at the time, but not even receiving proofreading after OCR).


Most of the ebooks I've read, I haven't paid anything for - some have been entirely legal; others, I deliberately haven't enquired about. The latter variety tend to have the quality you'd expect for the price, but some of the guaranteed legit ones (like the Baen Free Library) have been good quality.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby ps.02 » Sat May 07, 2016 12:30 am UTC

Yu_p wrote:the OCR artifacts are becoming rediculous ("it is my plea sure").

Beware complaining of the mistakes of others, lest you subject yourself to redicule as well.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Yu_p » Sat May 07, 2016 11:50 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Yu_p wrote:
jrc14 wrote:The Freda ebook reader for Windows 10 (here: https://www.microsoft.com/store/apps/9wzdncrfj43b) now implements snake-justification.


For ebooks, where outside of small-screen hostile PDFs, justification is never manually adjusted, what we really need is snakes that eat OCR errors. I am reading Dragon Age: Asunder right now, and the OCR artifacts are becoming rediculous ("it is my plea sure"). (I also recently read an article from 2012 where the author complained about ebooks being priced the same as printed books at the time, but not even receiving proofreading after OCR).


Most of the ebooks I've read, I haven't paid anything for - some have been entirely legal; others, I deliberately haven't enquired about. The latter variety tend to have the quality you'd expect for the price, but some of the guaranteed legit ones (like the Baen Free Library) have been good quality.


Mine were from Amazon, many of them priced in the 6€ regime, matching the reduced price of the paperback version. In a way I am glad they even bothered creating an OCR version of some of these books, but with tie-in books to a large Ubisoft game series you'd expect some QA nonetheless.

ps.02 wrote:
Yu_p wrote:the OCR artifacts are becoming rediculous ("it is my plea sure").

Beware complaining of the mistakes of others, lest you subject yourself to redicule as well.

I'm not a native speaker and I don't sell my posts as commercial products :roll:

Uh... we're off-topic I think :(

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Mikeski » Sun May 08, 2016 2:02 am UTC

hamjudo wrote:Do we need language specific snakes? Do Japanese snakes have to be able to travel vertically and horizontally?

Whoa, dude, that's hebi. You just blew my mind.

ThemePark wrote:There can be no Unicode snakes without Unicode ladders.

...though I suppose that's the solution for vertically-written languages.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby sotanaht » Sun May 08, 2016 3:30 am UTC

I just don't see the point in full-justified at all. Left-justified only looks "bad" in extreme cases where the line-length is especially tiny, and with the exception of print mediums tiny line-lengths are usually the result of extremely variable devices (eg cell phones). Attempting to fix that with a one-size-fits-all solution, especially one that isn't necessary on larger devices to begin with, doesn't really do anything good.



On a completely unrelated note that I would much rather put in an entirely seperate post...

Yu_p wrote:
Mine were from Amazon, many of them priced in the 6€ regime, matching the reduced price of the paperback version. In a way I am glad they even bothered creating an OCR version of some of these books, but with tie-in books to a large Ubisoft game series you'd expect some QA nonetheless.


You seriously expected QA from UBISOFT of all companies? They are competing to be worse than Bethesda at that.

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby divVerent » Wed May 11, 2016 9:36 pm UTC

Seriously, nobody mentioned overfull hboxes yet?

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Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby svat » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:15 am UTC

I found this example while reading Knuth's paper Breaking Paragraphs into Lines, a fantastic read which is 66 pages of pure goodness.

http://imgur.com/a/7lmZY
Image

The Complutensian Polyglot Bible (1514–1517) really used something like "snakes" to justify text. ("Leaders", which looked like "ooo ooo ooo" on the Latin side, and something else on the Hebrew side.)

Also https://xkcd.com/276/ ("Fixed Width") seems relevant. (Unrelated: I noticed that the latest comic mentions my username :-) )

Anyway Knuth's paper (reprinted with corrections and newer notation in his book Digital Typography) is worth reading. (It does mention the overfull boxes that the previous comment talks about.)


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