1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

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queueingtheory
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby queueingtheory » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:31 pm UTC

EDIT: never mind.
Last edited by queueingtheory on Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to get defenestrated.

Postby queueingtheory » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:55 pm UTC

Eternal Density wrote:Ladies, this comic is about time travel, not mansplaining.


More creepily:
This comic is about time travel, not mansplaining ... ladies.

I don't know. Maybe he is, or maybe he's just a nerd who's a bad conversationalist. (I recommend watching https://www.ted.com/talks/celeste_headl ... nversation: if you watch it and feel bad about yourself, just be happy that you can now become a better person.)

This strip uses time travel in a clever way: the guy's just seen the reality of time travel, yet right there and then he'd be feeling like complete crap, having been subjected to the ultimate put down.

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Wee Red Bird » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:38 pm UTC

sharpnova wrote:Is it supposed to be part of the joke that the girl he is talking to seems autistic? Or is that a running gag with her or what?

I mean.. I assume that's obvious here. She was unable to form even a basic conversational connection with someone or execute a theory of mind. (i.e. she was incapable of comprehending that what she did her thesis on was new and imminently interesting to him and that the idea of discussing it with someone who knew a lot about it would be exciting for him)

I think most of the time the female characters in xkcd seem autistic. I don't know if it's supposed to be a sexist jab at women or something but it's odd.


But on hearing that she knows quite a lot on the subject, does he ask if she knows something before starting to explain it? No, he incorrectly assumes she knows nothing about what happens regarding exotic matter and starts explaining. A sensible person would have asked if she knew about it before launching in to an explanation.

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby jeslek » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:58 pm UTC

addams wrote:
jeslek wrote:Hello everyone, I made an account just for this post after years of lurking when this week's comic was linked to me by a friend.I feel compelled to reference a summary of my own thesis from 2001, Later put into two arxiv papers because I have "too much time on my hands". https://arxiv.org/abs/1302.3298, https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.6632,and others' http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0412187, http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.2615
---
I'm sorry Mike. I can not hold up my end of that conversation. I was recently surprised to learn Wikipedia has a page on Time Travel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

I compressed the quotes a little bit here. Thanks for the reply. It's not super complicated, really. I have been thinking of maybe doing a for dummies book about it. I like teaching people and lecturing about things, and this is one of those niche topics I feel like a big expert at, so I was hoping there would be a lot of interest in it.


Mike

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby orthogon » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:01 pm UTC

Since I feel partially responsible for the mansplaining debate and wholly responsible* for the stuff about types of windows, may I attempt to make amends by pointing out that "thesis" is only one letter away from "tmesis". Perhaps we can put aside our differences and come together in proposing possible Time Travel Tmeses? I'll start the ball rolling with "worm-fucking-hole", which sounds actually rather filthy and is unsatisfactory insofar as the word being modified is actually a compound of two monosyllables to begin with. ("Timelike" has the same issue).

*
Spoiler:
Having said that, I have been wondering to what extent that discussion was inevitable, and would have happened even had I not raised it. That made me wonder whether you could experiment with the development of a thread about a given topic, and how you'd do it. That made me think about whether you could have multiple fora associated with the same webcomic, and randomly assign users to different versions of the forum. And, of course, that made me wonder whether exactly that had happened, and that all of you lovely people are just members of one small parallel xkcd subforum.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:56 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:I take it that you're planning a defenestration?
Now the geographical difference in window openings make sense: German's need them to settle political disputes.

Or whatever the antonym of settle is, when it expands the conflict to last 30 years and kills/displaces a third of the population.
sharpnova wrote:Is it supposed to be part of the joke that the girl he is talking to seems autistic? Or is that a running gag with her or what?.
Well, in the same sense that the characters from Seinfeld were all sociopaths. She suffers from being a comedic character; having literally cartoonist flaws.

The comic forms also truncates detail to a minimum. We only see two sentences of cue-ball explaining, because more would be redundant. We have to guess as such about Cueball's manner based off Megan's reaction as the other way around.

Randal could have shown Cueball talking for five minutes, reciting things Megan already knows 30 times, but Randal chose to spare us the tediousness Megan suffered through.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby trpmb6 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:24 pm UTC

Why must everything be stripped down to an argument about sexism or racism?

I came to the forums expecting some sort of intellectual conversation about time travel. I even flirted with the idea of how one could show up to a thesis defense with their identical twin as proof their theory works. (as one or two other posts had touched on briefly) Instead, I have come to find that our society would prefer to bicker about some perceived sexism. That is what is wrong with society today. Instead of thinking intellectually about a topic we jump to some fabricated social issue.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby somitomi » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:46 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Having said that, I have been wondering to what extent that discussion was inevitable, and would have happened even had I not raised it. That made me wonder whether you could experiment with the development of a thread about a given topic, and how you'd do it. That made me think about whether you could have multiple fora associated with the same webcomic, and randomly assign users to different versions of the forum. And, of course, that made me wonder whether exactly that had happened, and that all of you lovely people are just members of one small parallel xkcd subforum.

<Attention all units, user "orthogon" has unwittingly revealed the nature of our research to usergroup C137. All experiments are suspended until the users in group C137 are distributed into other groups. User "orthogon" and any other users who've read this post are to be moved into an isolated usergroup, and excluded from experiments until further notice. This message will self-erase in 48 hours.>
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby ucim » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:26 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:I came to the forums expecting some sort of intellectual conversation about time travel. [...] Instead, I have come to find that our society would prefer to bicker about some perceived sexism...
If you want an intellectual conversation about time travel in the xkcd forums, you need to start with a comic about sexism or racism. :)

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Flumble » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:58 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:Why must everything be stripped down to an argument about sexism or racism?

Instead of complaining about a metadiscussion about said sexism, which has both died out and is definitely not the default in these threads, how about adding something of value to the thread to get the ball rolling? Bickering more doesn't encourage anyone to discuss time travel, which is what you'd like.

But I bet you're very much aware of that and you're just posting this to show your discontent with what the majority of this thread has become and you don't really care for a discussion about time travel at this point. Actually, you don't even really care about what has happened to this thread, but it's a great opportunity for you to bicker about the current "hot topics" in society.

Now the real question is: why write it down like this?* You could've communicated more clearly, like "I hate that this thread has spent so much time about perceived sexism and I hate that this happens so much in society at large", instead of hiding it behind the façade of wanting to discuss time travel and mixing up 'this thread' and 'society'.

*I'm writing this post like this because I'm not happy with non-constructive posts. I'm writing it like this because I want to point that out, and to point out that you're late to the party anyway, and to show my assumptions as to why you posted it (so you can quote and reject assumptions I made, if any), and to ask you to speak your mind more clearly and, originally, to refrain from generalizations.
Well, that last part mostly activated me to think why/how we talk around things instead of communicating in a more direct manner. The first part of this footnote states what I actually want to communicate, whereas the three paragraphs... do what exactly?

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:25 pm UTC

In my experience, the men who complain about the term "mansplaining" are likely to be the most guilty of it themselves.

Yes, the know-it-all attitude that you must know more about a topic than your interlocutor can exist in any gender, but there is a specific gendered way that attitude often manifests itself between men and women. The fact that some of you aren't aware of having witnessed (or participated in) it doesn't mean it isn't real.

(I didn't personally see this comic as an obvious example of mansplaining, perhaps because time travel is one of those things so esoteric that people need only a little knowledge about to be *relatively* more informed than just about everyone else. But the perception that this is mansplaining certainly isn't a huge leap here, either, expecially as it's a particularly nerdy interest and male nerds quite often assume women couldn't possibly be equally or more knowledgeable about nerdy things.)
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby operagost » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:32 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:In my experience, the men who complain about the term "mansplaining" are likely to be the most guilty of it themselves.

Is this the meaniehead version of "you denied it, you supplied it"?

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Draconaes » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:53 am UTC

sharpnova wrote:Is there a reason why these forums are very sexist towards men? It's disgusting and anti-intellectual.


Is there a reason why this post is very terrible? It's disgusting and anti-intellectual.

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby addams » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:51 am UTC

ucim wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:I came to the forums expecting some sort of intellectual conversation about time travel. [...] Instead, I have come to find that our society would prefer to bicker about some perceived sexism...
If you want an intellectual conversation about time travel in the xkcd forums, you need to start with a comic about sexism or racism. :)

Jose

oh, ... That's funny.
Someone had a signature that said,
Only on xkcd can a conversation start out about Hitler and end up with three pages arguing computer languages.

Back to Time Travel.
There are sane adults that take the idea seriously, today.

We seem to have one in Mike.
ok, Mike; I'll try.
jeslek wrote:
addams wrote:
jeslek wrote:Hello everyone, I made an account just for this post after years of lurking when this week's comic was linked to me by a friend.I feel compelled to reference a summary of my own thesis from 2001, Later put into two arxiv papers because I have "too much time on my hands". https://arxiv.org/abs/1302.3298, https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.6632,and others' http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0412187, http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.2615
---
I'm sorry Mike. I can not hold up my end of that conversation. I was recently surprised to learn Wikipedia has a page on Time Travel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

I compressed the quotes a little bit here. Thanks for the reply. It's not super complicated, really. I have been thinking of maybe doing a for dummies book about it. I like teaching people and lecturing about things, and this is one of those niche topics I feel like a big expert at, so I was hoping there would be a lot of interest in it.


Mike

These may be very link heavy posts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon
Maxwell's Demon ...
That Demon is put to work by Someone using lasers to cool sodium and rubidium.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drnq_6ffTbo

This thing is going to require some Quantum Mechanics.
This thing is going to require me to 'study up' to keep up.

Third party paradox? I can only find the usual paradox.
Spoiler:
Time travel[edit]
Bootstrap paradox, (also ontological paradox) Can a time traveler send himself information with no outside source?

Polchinski's paradox: A billiard ball can be thrown into a wormhole in such a way that it would emerge in the past and knock its incoming past self away from the wormhole entrance, creating a variant of the grandfather paradox.

Predestination paradox: A man travels back in time to discover the cause of a famous fire. While in the building where the fire started, he accidentally knocks over a kerosene lantern and causes a fire, the same fire that would inspire him, years later, to travel back in time. The bootstrap paradox is closely tied to this, in which, as a result of time travel, information or objects appear to have no beginning.

Temporal paradox: What happens when a time traveler does things in the past that prevent him from doing them in the first place?

Grandfather paradox: You travel back in time and kill your grandfather before he conceives one of your parents, which precludes your own conception and, therefore, you couldn't go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Hitler's murder paradox: You travel back in time and kill a famous person in history before they become famous; but if the person had never been famous then he could not have been targeted as a famous person.

It seems the serious minds are Not thinking of sending a DeLorean.
Only pieces of light.

Pieces of light that will make computers so fast important tasks are not put off until tomorrow.
Those tasks are done tomorrow, today. Or; The task is done half a fraction of a second before, Now.

I'm only reading the abstracts.
The pdf's might eat my machine and my head.

The second abstract made me Google, too.
Novikov self-consistency principle?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_s ... _principle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronolog ... conjecture
ok...umm...That's a little dense. And, that has been dumbed down.

After considering the problem, two students at Caltech where Thorne taught, Fernando Echeverria and Gunnar Klinkhammer, were able to find a solution beginning with the original billiard ball trajectory proposed by Polchinski that managed to avoid any inconsistencies. In this situation, the billiard ball emerges from the future at a different angle than the one that generates the paradox, and delivers its younger self a glancing blow instead of knocking it completely away from the wormhole, a blow that changes its trajectory in just the right way so that it will travel back in time with the angle required to deliver its younger self this glancing blow. Echeverria and Klinkhammer actually found that there was more than one self-consistent solution, with slightly different angles for the glancing blow in each case. Later analysis by Thorne and Robert Forward showed that for certain initial trajectories of the billiard ball, there could actually be an infinite number of self-consistent solutions.[6]:511–513

ok.ok.
They are going to be photons not billiard balls.

And; ....(hangs and shakes head) Nope.
I can't. I can't catch up.

It seems, inside the lifetimes of many xkcd Posters,
Time Travel may very well be, just, another tool.

We will use it to be Nobel.
We will use it to be Petty.

We will be as we are.
At the caves at Lascaux we have porn and pictures of Kitties.
To our neighbors in Space we will send porn and pictures of Kitties.

oh excuse me, Mike
Mike;...
How is Time Travel going to be used?
Explain like I'm five years old. ok?
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:22 am UTC

addams wrote:Third party paradox? I can only find the usual paradox.
Spoiler:
Time travel[edit]
Bootstrap paradox, (also ontological paradox) Can a time traveler send himself information with no outside source?

Polchinski's paradox: A billiard ball can be thrown into a wormhole in such a way that it would emerge in the past and knock its incoming past self away from the wormhole entrance, creating a variant of the grandfather paradox.

Predestination paradox: A man travels back in time to discover the cause of a famous fire. While in the building where the fire started, he accidentally knocks over a kerosene lantern and causes a fire, the same fire that would inspire him, years later, to travel back in time. The bootstrap paradox is closely tied to this, in which, as a result of time travel, information or objects appear to have no beginning.

Temporal paradox: What happens when a time traveler does things in the past that prevent him from doing them in the first place?

Grandfather paradox: You travel back in time and kill your grandfather before he conceives one of your parents, which precludes your own conception and, therefore, you couldn't go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Hitler's murder paradox: You travel back in time and kill a famous person in history before they become famous; but if the person had never been famous then he could not have been targeted as a famous person.

It seems the serious minds are Not thinking of sending a DeLorean.

Futurama spoiler (although everyone probably saw it)
Spoiler:
Futurama features a sick cross between the Bootstrap paradox and the Grandfather paradox: They travel back in time and Fry lands in bed with someone from that time, who turns out to be his own grandmother. Fry turns out to be his own grandfather.
Mikeski wrote:A "What If" update is never late. Nor is it early. It is posted precisely when it should be.

patzer's signature wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:I'm being quoted too much!

he/him/his

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:15 am UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:
addams wrote:Third party paradox? I can only find the usual paradox.
Spoiler:
Time travel[edit]
Bootstrap paradox, (also ontological paradox) Can a time traveler send himself information with no outside source?

Polchinski's paradox: A billiard ball can be thrown into a wormhole in such a way that it would emerge in the past and knock its incoming past self away from the wormhole entrance, creating a variant of the grandfather paradox.

Predestination paradox: A man travels back in time to discover the cause of a famous fire. While in the building where the fire started, he accidentally knocks over a kerosene lantern and causes a fire, the same fire that would inspire him, years later, to travel back in time. The bootstrap paradox is closely tied to this, in which, as a result of time travel, information or objects appear to have no beginning.

Temporal paradox: What happens when a time traveler does things in the past that prevent him from doing them in the first place?

Grandfather paradox: You travel back in time and kill your grandfather before he conceives one of your parents, which precludes your own conception and, therefore, you couldn't go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Hitler's murder paradox: You travel back in time and kill a famous person in history before they become famous; but if the person had never been famous then he could not have been targeted as a famous person.

It seems the serious minds are Not thinking of sending a DeLorean.

Futurama spoiler (although everyone probably saw it)
Spoiler:
Futurama features a sick cross between the Bootstrap paradox and the Grandfather paradox: They travel back in time and Fry lands in bed with someone from that time, who turns out to be his own grandmother. Fry turns out to be his own grandfather.

Heinlein's story All You Zombies takes it one step further with questionable understanding of human hermaphroditism.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:56 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:
addams wrote:Third party paradox? I can only find the usual paradox.
Spoiler:
Time travel[edit]
Bootstrap paradox, (also ontological paradox) Can a time traveler send himself information with no outside source?

Polchinski's paradox: A billiard ball can be thrown into a wormhole in such a way that it would emerge in the past and knock its incoming past self away from the wormhole entrance, creating a variant of the grandfather paradox.

Predestination paradox: A man travels back in time to discover the cause of a famous fire. While in the building where the fire started, he accidentally knocks over a kerosene lantern and causes a fire, the same fire that would inspire him, years later, to travel back in time. The bootstrap paradox is closely tied to this, in which, as a result of time travel, information or objects appear to have no beginning.

Temporal paradox: What happens when a time traveler does things in the past that prevent him from doing them in the first place?

Grandfather paradox: You travel back in time and kill your grandfather before he conceives one of your parents, which precludes your own conception and, therefore, you couldn't go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Hitler's murder paradox: You travel back in time and kill a famous person in history before they become famous; but if the person had never been famous then he could not have been targeted as a famous person.

It seems the serious minds are Not thinking of sending a DeLorean.

Futurama spoiler (although everyone probably saw it)
Spoiler:
Futurama features a sick cross between the Bootstrap paradox and the Grandfather paradox: They travel back in time and Fry lands in bed with someone from that time, who turns out to be his own grandmother. Fry turns out to be his own grandfather.

Heinlein's story All You Zombies takes it one step further with questionable understanding of human hermaphroditism.

Ah, I see. This is one of those cases where the weird Futurama episode is a simple version of an older story. That is a weird story, and presumably not very medically realistic.
Mikeski wrote:A "What If" update is never late. Nor is it early. It is posted precisely when it should be.

patzer's signature wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:I'm being quoted too much!

he/him/his

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby orthogon » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:59 am UTC

addams wrote:It seems the serious minds are Not thinking of sending a DeLorean.

I am disappoint that there isn't a "McFly Paradox". Possibly dealing with the issues of whether performing rights are payable for a song that hasn't been written yet?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:17 pm UTC

sharpnova wrote:
orthogon wrote:
xtifr wrote:Maybe I, too, have been mansplained to.


Is there a reason why these forums are very sexist towards men? It's disgusting and anti-intellectual.

Every time you use autistic as a pejorative, I oppress a dude by pointing out some discovery credited to a guy was actually from a woman who did all the work and analysis, and the dude just happened to get the credit - even if there is no woman and I have to create one from nothing.

Muah hah hah hah hah!

So, really, you have no one to blame but yourself.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:53 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:even if there is no woman and I have to create one from nothing.
God was lazy and used a rib.
Mikeski wrote:A "What If" update is never late. Nor is it early. It is posted precisely when it should be.

patzer's signature wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:I'm being quoted too much!

he/him/his

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby somitomi » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:17 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
addams wrote:It seems the serious minds are Not thinking of sending a DeLorean.

I am disappoint that there isn't a "McFly Paradox". Possibly dealing with the issues of whether performing rights are payable for a song that hasn't been written yet?

According to most record companies, yes.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby jeslek » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:14 pm UTC

addams wrote:ok, Mike; I'll try.

yay :^) This could get really long so I will cut out some things. As a disclaimer this has little practical use, it's just fun to think about mainly.
My big paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.6632
Seth's paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0412187,
Scott's paper:http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.2615
Thesis paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1302.3298
wiki's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_protection_conjecture
addams wrote:Third party paradox? I can only find the usual paradox.

This is just the name I chose, since it didn't have a standard one. (most people never hear of it)
It forms the basis of Maldacena/Lloyd/Preskill final state projection theory of black holes. ( I did include the idea in my thesis years before them but no one cares what a lowly undergrad thinks. ;) https://arxiv.org/abs/1308.4209
The idea is simple, time machines/time loops can affect things that are only indirectly related to them, even events outside the "causal diamond".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space#Causal_structure ( causal diamond is the intersection of the forward light cone of the earliest part of the loop, and the past light cone of its latest part. ) To see how this can happen we need a model.
Classical Model
Let's describe the classical model as an information channel that sends one bit of information from a future point F to a point in F's causal past P. Think of a box with two buttons and two lights, say red and blue. The machine is a time machine with fidelity value K (important later) if pushing the button at F causes the same color to light up at P with probability K, and the other color with probability 1-K ( the classical error rate ). It turns out that modelling the error rate is important, since some quantities diverge at K=1, but are otherwise manageable. To figure out what happens in a particular paradox in this classical model, we basically consider 4 scenarios, based on what light lights up, and what button is pressed, and then we weight them using the fidelity constant K. The probability of scenarios where the button and the light agree gets the weight K, and the scenarios where they disagree get the weight 1-K. Then we renormalize so all probabilities add up to 100. So you could say this time machine is just a box with randomly blinking lights that also affects the probability of events connected to it. Using this basic framework, you can pretty much resolve all the paradoxes, and derive some really neat results. The quantum version of this is similar but we have to allow the light and buttons to be in a superposition of the two colors, with an arbitrary phase coefficient between them, which allows for some more exotic effects and even new paradoxes.

Lets test out the model. First label our 4 scenarios:
scenario RR red lights up and is pushed ; We give this weight K
scenario RB red lights up and blue is pushed ; we give this weight 1-K
scenario BB blue lights up and is pushed ; we give this weight K
scenario BR blue lights up and red is pushed ; we give this weight 1-K

Test 1:Suppose I am determined to press the blue button no matter what. Since I am going to definitely push blue, BR and RR are not going to happed, unless my assumption is wrong. XD
BB will happen with probability K and RB will happen with probability 1-K. So we can see in the case where I am not affected by the lights that the systems behaves like a normal communications channel.

Test 2 Suppose I plan to press the same button as whichever light lights up. Again unless I fumble, only RR and BB are possible.
Both RR and BB are weighted with probability K, which means we need to divide by 2K. This gives us a 50/50 chance of either color appearing. A somewhat surprising result since it seems the color that appears is independent of any external cause now. This is the bootstrap/Futurama/predestination/chicken and egg paradox in its most simple form. In some circles it is also called the unproven proof paradox. The quantum version has even befuddled experts. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1108.0153.pdf

Test 3 Suppose I instead decide to thwart the time machine by pressing the opposite button of whichever light goes on. In this case only BR and RB are possible. Each of those gets weighted by 1-K, and then divided by 2-2K. This gives us again the same 50/50 split. This is the grandfather/hitler/polchinsky paradox. The interesting thing here is that the denominator of our probability ( 2-2K ), goes to zero when K goes to 1. This vanishing denominator is actually one of the important fingerprints of paradox.

Test 4 This one's a doozy so hold on. Suppose I can't decide whether I want to do test 2 or test 3 of the above tests. So I pull out a coin and flip it, heads I do test 2, tails I do test 3. We can use H and T to describe the coin toss so our now 8 possible scenarios are: BHB,BTB,BHR,BTR,RHR,RTR,RHB,RTB. If it's a fair coin all 8 of these get multiplied by 1/2, we only toss once.
Since test 2 only has BB and RR, and test 2 only happens if it's heads, we can eliminate BTB and RTR.
Likewise if we only do test 3 which has RB and BR if it's tails, we eliminate BHR and RHB.
Now assign weights based light/button agreement we get:
BHB = K/2
RHR = K/2
RTB = (1-K)/2
BTR = (1-K)/2
This adds up to 1 so we have no paradox nor need to divide. But if we ignore the lights and buttons we see the coin behaves strangely.
H = BHB + RHR + RHB + BHR = K
T = BTB + RTR + RTB + BTR = 1 - K
The coin is no longer fair, but is skewed by the presence of the time loop.
This interaction opens up a whole world interesting things. The coin doesn't have to be anywhere near the time loop when flipped, the effects back-propagate along the causal connections to skew the initial flip. In the quantum version we can replace the coin with a pair of spin entangled particles. When this skew effect hits one of them, the other one is also skewed through the entanglement, wherever it is. Unlike unitary entanglement that can't be used to communicate, this non-unitary skew effect can convey information outside of a light cone, and therefore even from inside a black hole event horizon onto Hawking radiation outside.

I got alot more but this should be enough for one post.
-Mike

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby PsiCubed » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:49 pm UTC

addams wrote:You may be setting the foundation stones on the discipline that saves us from ourselves.


I doubt that giving a bunch of hairy apes access to a f***-ing time machine is going to make the world any safer.

Don't get me wrong. Time travel is super-duperly cool, but it isn't exactly safe.

As for the comic:

I'm less worried about the gal being rude, and more worried about her apparent lack of interest in discussing her own field of study. People who don't like to blabber about time travel with the nerdy boy next door, should not be allowed to build time machines.
Image

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby doogly » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:09 pm UTC

Have you missed how he's being an ass? Why have you missed that?

Disclosure: I have a PhD in Time Machine.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby ucim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:57 pm UTC

jeslek wrote:The coin is no longer fair, but is skewed by the presence of the time loop.
That's not the only way to look at it.

Since
jeslek wrote:The coin doesn't have to be anywhere near the time loop when flipped,
... the coin doesn't even have to be flipped for that purpose. I can decide to use the results of the first coin that happens to fall off the counter at the diner down the block.

Based on its outcome, I do test 2 or test 3. But I have to choose to do this (use the above coin to decide). The coin could be perfectly fair, but it just so happens that the only times I will choose to do this are the ones where K=.5 (where the first point is a decimal point and the second point is the period at the end of the sentence, but I don't need to explain this because doing so separated the period from the number, but if I didn't explain this (which I didn't need to do), I'd need the explanation).

Of course, this a variant of "only stable time loops are possible". And it also raises the question of what a "fair" coin is when time travel enters the picture.

edit:
Image

redundant:
Spoiler:
timetravel.png
Jose
Last edited by ucim on Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:23 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:21 pm UTC

ucim wrote:where K=.5 (where the first point is a decimal point and the second point is the period at the end of the sentence, but I don't need to explain this because doing so separated the period from the number, but if I didn't explain this (which I didn't need to do), I'd need the explanation).
Where I come from, one pretty much never writes a decimal point without preceding it by the units value (even/especially when that is the sole leading zero).

Verbally, "point five" is a shorthand (prior context defining whether it is "zero point five" or "<previously stated value> point five", and "one point one, point two, point three, four, five..." might drop the "point" even), but outside of definite column demarkation of magnitude (pre-printed or implied-but-ommited decimal marker) its misreadable laziness to go with ".5".

I bet you say "point fifteen", too, for "(...) point one five", you monster!!!
:P

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby ucim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:28 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Where I come from, one pretty much never writes a decimal point without preceding it by the units value...
Well, K is a pure number, so there are no units. I could have written 0.5 but that would not remove the ambiguous-looking graphology. (No, it wasn't actually ambigiuous, but it just looked ambiguous). It would end up being K=0.5. Admittedly though, this looks less funny than K=.5.

So, I'll grant you the point. Even though you wanted units, and I gave you literally bubkus.

Soupspoon wrote:I bet you say "point fifteen", too, for "(...) point one five", you monster!!!
Oh my god NEVER! You probably have me voting for Trump too! :)

Jose
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby jeslek » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:01 pm UTC

jeslek wrote:The coin is no longer fair, but is skewed by the presence of the time loop.
That's not the only way to look at it.[/quote]
Of course, it is just convenient. :D
ucim wrote:Since
jeslek wrote:The coin doesn't have to be anywhere near the time loop when flipped,
... the coin doesn't even have to be flipped for that purpose. I can decide to use the results of the first coin that happens to fall off the counter at the diner down the block.
Based on its outcome, I do test 2 or test 3. But I have to choose to do this (use the above coin to decide). The coin could be perfectly fair, but it just so happens that the only times I will choose to do this are the ones where K=.5

We're just starting with simple cases and working up. Normally one might expect that only things in the future of P would be changed, but this case shows that things in the past of F are also affected. Using 'changed' and 'affected' pretty loosely to mean a deviation from what we would expect if there were no time machine. The case where K= 1/2 is exactly that base case of no time loop, this is because if K is .5 then so is the error rate, which means the channel is completely random. If you look at other things besides coin flips, you start to see a trade off between the K value and the skew in the 'affected' or entangled system. The time loop 'raw' K value is similar to a battery voltage in a circuit, and different amounts of skew in the probabilities result based on what the 'raw' original unskewed probabilities would be. For example if we tried to similarly 'alter' the probability of a rigged coin, the expression is slightly complex. In that case the coin's bias also has an effect back onto the error rate, causing K to go down to an 'effective' value. Some portion of the time loop's 'K-force' is used up skewing the coin. If we try to skew multiple coins, the effect on each individual coin is weaker, and the new effective K value even lower. This is similar to loading up a battery with more and more resistance. The more variable we try to affect with the time loop, the less each one is affected, just as light bulbs in series get dimmer as you add more of them to a line of Christmas lights. The main question is, what is the limit? Is there one? It turns out that there is a maximum amount of 'k-force' that can be drawn from a particular time loop. It is a slightly messy function of K and the total number of bits of information passing through the loop, or channel capacity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem
This value I call the negentropy potential or work capacity of the time machine in my thesis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_entropy This value would represent a minimum amount of by-product entropy that it would take to create a time loop of a given value of K. Time loops act in a way, a lot like heat engines, but they move probability, or entropy. You could say that they are a very peculiar type of refrigerator.

In dealing with tricky concepts, it is important not to let oneself get overwhelmed by the large number of interdependencies. The quantitative side is important too. While a single time loop could have an impact on every coin toss in the universe, so too could a butterfly. This gets along to the tourist paradox which I am sure everyone would like to hear resolved.:D Perhaps next post.

-mike
edit: typos, it was gonna happen

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby ucim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:35 pm UTC

jeslek wrote:but this case shows that things in the past of F are also affected.
Isn't that the essence of the "only stable time loops" idea? An unstable time loop affects the past inasmuch as it makes it not happen.

jeslek wrote:If you look at other things besides coin flips, you start to see a trade off between the K value and the skew in the 'affected' or entangled system.
In other systems, the "natural" K might not be .5 either. Swap a coin flip for a die roll, for example. Same mechanism, different number.

In any case, QM might apply differently when time is free. That is, the "location" of a particle might have to be specified in time as well... so with a high enough precision of momentum, a particle might be located in the past, or future (as well as to the left or to the right). Does this matter? (After all, it's moving through time and space anyway, and if you treat a particle as a complete world-line, the issue may vanish).

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby jc » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:36 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:I bet you say "point fifteen", too, for "(...) point one five", you monster!!!
Oh my god NEVER! You probably have me voting for Trump too! :)

Jose


I've been known to say things like "... point one and a half", just to watch the confusion on some listeners' faces. ;-)

But there's no way I'd vote for Trump, or have any business dealings with him. He does have a bit of a documented record. (Oops; I didn't mean to start the political flamewar that follows ....)

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:37 pm UTC

PsiCubed wrote:I'm less worried about the gal being rude, and more worried about her apparent lack of interest in discussing her own field of study. People who don't like to blabber about time travel with the nerdy boy next door, should not be allowed to build time machines.
If you're not paying me to teach you, I am under no obligation to teach you about something, even if it is my area of particular interest or expertise.

I sometimes like to do so out of kindness or my own excitement for the topic, of course, but if you furthermore try to explain things to me when I'm the expert and your knowledge comes from WIkipedia, I will be even less inclined to give you a free education than I might have been to start with.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:10 pm UTC

ucim wrote:[Even though you wanted units, and I gave you literally bubkus.
Ah, no. Units as in "..., hundreds, tens, units (point) tenths, hundredths, ...".

But nice to know you're not a monster. :)

jc wrote:I've been known to say things like "... point one and a half", just to watch the confusion on some listeners' faces. ;-)
If people didn't say it already, apparently under the impression that it is sensible, I'd be tempted to play with phases like "five times less again".

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby ucim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:01 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Ah, no. Units as in "..., hundreds, tens, units (point) tenths, hundredths, ...".
Gotcha. Although I tend to call them "ones".

Maybe we should call them "eaches"
Spoiler:
How much a pound are your lobsters?
We don't sells 'em by the pound, we sells 'em by the each.

Ok, how much each are your lobsters?
Ten fifty a pound. Each.
Soupspoon wrote:But nice to know you're not a monster. :)
If I were a monster, I'd run for... well, let's not go there. :)

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:01 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
jeslek wrote:If you look at other things besides coin flips, you start to see a trade off between the K value and the skew in the 'affected' or entangled system.
In other systems, the "natural" K might not be .5 either. Swap a coin flip for a die roll, for example. Same mechanism, different number.

In order to deal with a die roll (four sided or two coins, for simplicity) with the same strength of interaction instead of one coin, wouldn't you need twice as many bits in your time machine, thus balancing things out again?
As in; if you describe your system in terms of bits of information, you'd have the same K/bit in everything?

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby jeslek » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:43 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:
ucim wrote:
jeslek wrote:If you look at other things besides coin flips,
you start to see a trade off between the K value and the skew in the 'affected' or entangled system.
In other systems, the "natural" K might not be .5 either. Swap a coin flip for a die roll, for
example. Same mechanism, different number.

In order to deal with a die roll (four sided or two coins, for simplicity) with the same strength of
interaction instead of one coin, wouldn't you need twice as many bits in your time machine, thus
balancing things out again?
As in; if you describe your system in terms of bits of information, you'd have the same K/bit in
everything?

That would be one way. Or you could use a single bit with a higher raw K value.
The time machine itself can be described according to standard channel theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noisy-channel_coding_theorem
Then the weight is the joint probability of a regular channel having those same input/outputs.
When K goes to 1, then the number of flips you can control diverges, and the entropy cost does as well.
One of the points of the thesis was that a noiseless time machine was analogous to a perfectly
efficient heat engine, and forbidden by thermodynamics. Time loops must have a K between .5 and 1, and
limited further by the waste heat, just like a refrigerator has a maximum efficiency, regardless of how
any given time machine works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot%27s_theorem_(thermodynamics)
I put the minimum at .5 since any value between 0 and .5 means you just swap the colors and get a value

in the >.5 range. Also, since K is a probability measure, it can't be negative. So one lesson is we should specify some K value or range when we talk about time loops. A lot of perfectly ordinary things in physics produce paradoxes when you take things to be infinite. For example an infinite voltage battery or infinite mass particle causes problems as well. That's actually a large part of particle physics.( removing infinities )

-mike

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby da Doctah » Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:09 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:I bet you say "point fifteen", too, for "(...) point one five", you monster!!!
:P


Not round here, you don't. "Point fifteen" is 0.015, or have you never bought guitar strings?

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Echo244 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:19 am UTC

ucim wrote:Image
Jose


How about this (apologies for not caring enough to get the font right)?

Image

Cueball is actually *asking* an *expert* in the field her *opinion*! Why can't we try that?

(Also I couldn't resist slightly worsing it by making time travel not work)

Attachment:
Spoiler:
1716sw.jpg
1716sw.jpg (41.25 KiB) Viewed 4665 times
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby orthogon » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:03 am UTC

PsiCubed wrote:I'm less worried about the gal being rude, and more worried about her apparent lack of interest in discussing her own field of study. People who don't like to blabber about time travel with the nerdy boy next door, should not be allowed to build time machines.


OK, now I get it. There's a timeline in which she really engages in the conversation, inspires him to further study, and he goes on to do something truly evil with his knowledge of time travel (whatever the opposite of killing Hitler is, say). Future Megan has to come back from the future to stop this; but she has to do this in a way that doesn't excite Cueball's suspicion and encourage him to continue with his research. So rather than telling her past self that the outcome of going through with the conversation is going to be terrible, instead she just says that it's unimportant. Cueball's self-esteem is crushed, he descends into a spiral of self-questioning (am I an awful person who doesn't listen? Am I a sexist pig? Do I mansplain?), and his interest in time travel physics dissolves. Past Megan wasn't actually having too bad a time, but she realised what her future self must be doing (presumably there are quite a lot of ways of dropping a hint to yourself?), and played along with it with her "Oh, thank God".

A slightly better time-travel tmesis: "Woah, you mean I make a time ma-actual-chine? Cool!"
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:12 am UTC

orthogon wrote:
PsiCubed wrote:I'm less worried about the gal being rude, and more worried about her apparent lack of interest in discussing her own field of study. People who don't like to blabber about time travel with the nerdy boy next door, should not be allowed to build time machines.


OK, now I get it. There's a timeline in which she really engages in the conversation, inspires him to further study, and he goes on to do something truly evil with his knowledge of time travel (whatever the opposite of killing Hitler is, say). Future Megan has to come back from the future to stop this; but she has to do this in a way that doesn't excite Cueball's suspicion and encourage him to continue with his research. So rather than telling her past self that the outcome of going through with the conversation is going to be terrible, instead she just says that it's unimportant. Cueball's self-esteem is crushed, he descends into a spiral of self-questioning (am I an awful person who doesn't listen? Am I a sexist pig? Do I mansplain?), and his interest in time travel physics dissolves. Past Megan wasn't actually having too bad a time, but she realised what her future self must be doing (presumably there are quite a lot of ways of dropping a hint to yourself?), and played along with it with her "Oh, thank God".

A slightly better time-travel tmesis: "Woah, you mean I make a time ma-actual-chine? Cool!"

Or it's a causal loop and there is no such thing as an original timeline where she engages him in the conversation, just the assumption that there ever was one (which, incidentally helps cause the loop).
Or BHG has made a robotic copy of Megan just to mess with both of them.
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Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"

Postby addams » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:10 am UTC

TimeTravel on my mind.
Does Mike play with light?

(yawn) I fell asleep three times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ORLN_KwAgs

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Is it nonsense?
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