1759: "British Map"

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:49 am UTC

dtilque wrote:
RAGBRAIvet wrote:Title-text: West Norsussex is east of East Norwessex, but they're both far north of Middlesex and West Norwex.
So where is Gaysex?


At Three Cocks
Or Rearsby and Backbarrow.

Alternately, there's Muff and Wombwell, then Grindlow.

Whatever your partnership, why not travel all along the A69, until it actually ends up in Cumbria, if you're going the right way. (If not, you'll just get to Denton Burn, which you might need some Salvington for.)

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:29 am UTC

chrisjwmartin wrote:Generally though, this was a pretty stupid cartoon. I don't see what the point was.

I'm pretty sure it was "people who aren't from the UK think that British towns and cities have silly-sounding names; here are some words and names that are similar enough that they might be mistaken for the names of British towns. And also some real ones that I legitimately mistook for not really British towns because Poe's Law maybe?"
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Sableagle » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:26 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
dtilque wrote:
RAGBRAIvet wrote:Title-text: West Norsussex is east of East Norwessex, but they're both far north of Middlesex and West Norwex.
So where is Gaysex?


At Three Cocks
Or Rearsby and Backbarrow.

Alternately, there's Muff and Wombwell, then Grindlow.

Whatever your partnership, why not travel all along the A69, until it actually ends up in Cumbria, if you're going the right way. (If not, you'll just get to Denton Burn, which you might need some Salvington for.)

Cumbria's lovely, but how do I get there from Kateridden, Cock Lake Side, Dyke House, Cumratph Crag, Hell Holes, Horcum Slack, Cumboots, Cockayne, Cock Heads and Bell End?

It's easy to get there from Slack Dyke, of course.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby somitomi » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:55 pm UTC

RAGBRAIvet wrote:Title-text: West Norsussex is east of East Norwessex, but they're both far north of Middlesex and West Norwex.

That kind of reminds me of the conundrum I had as a child with the three main railway stations in Budapest. They have cardinal directions for names (East, West and South) but these are not related to their relative locations at all. Not to mention the irritating absence of a northern one...
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Reka » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:36 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:That kind of reminds me of the conundrum I had as a child with the three main railway stations in Budapest. They have cardinal directions for names (East, West and South) but these are not related to their relative locations at all. Not to mention the irritating absence of a northern one...

There is a northern one, it's just called West to confuse the enemy1. What there isn't is a southern one; what's called South is actually western. So really, the truly confusing part is that East Station is actually the eastern station.

1 And everyone else, too, but whatever.

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm UTC

In some parts of southern California, the US-101 Northbound freeway will see you driving into the sunset, and the Southbound likewise into the sunrise.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby somitomi » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:00 pm UTC

Reka wrote:
somitomi wrote:That kind of reminds me of the conundrum I had as a child with the three main railway stations in Budapest. They have cardinal directions for names (East, West and South) but these are not related to their relative locations at all. Not to mention the irritating absence of a northern one...

There is a northern one, it's just called West to confuse the enemy1. What there isn't is a southern one; what's called South is actually western. So really, the truly confusing part is that East Station is actually the eastern station.

1 And everyone else, too, but whatever.

I know that (I live close enough to spend a lot of my time in Budapest and I'm also a railfan1), which station is missing depends on wether you go by names (northern missing) or by location (southern missing). The names start to make more sense, once you look up where they came from.

1: Not this kind.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby svenman » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:56 am UTC

somitomi wrote:That kind of reminds me of the conundrum I had as a child with the three main railway stations in Budapest. They have cardinal directions for names (East, West and South) but these are not related to their relative locations at all. Not to mention the irritating absence of a northern one...

What has always struck me as odd: until a few years ago a typical rail journey from Budapest to Vienna started at Budapest Eastern station, from where you'd travel westwards; then after approaching Vienna from the East you'd arrive there at the Western station! (Which was, and is, indeed to the west of the city centre; however, international trains in Vienna now generally call at the new Main station, which is at the location of the former Southern station, and south of the city centre).

Fellow railfan here, btw.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:19 am UTC

svenman wrote:What has always struck me as odd: until a few years ago a typical rail journey from Budapest to Vienna started at Budapest Eastern station, from where you'd travel westwards; then after approaching Vienna from the East you'd arrive there at the Western station!

Welcome to the world of everyone in the western hemisphere. :mrgreen:

"The West" is where you wind up if you leave the east coast and go east, and "The East" is reached by leaving the west coast and going west.

(Also, "The Far East" is near, and "The Near East" is far. Unless you go through the West to get there.)

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:40 am UTC

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And it's even worse on the west coast, where "the midwest" is slightly to the east, "the west" is even further to the east, and "the middle east" is somewhat further west of "the east" which, as you've noted, is to the west.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby CharlieP » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:42 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:"The West" is where you wind up if you leave the east coast and go east, and "The East" is reached by leaving the west coast and going west.


I disagree. Norway/Denmark/Germany/The Netherlands and Ireland/Canada are all "The West", if you ask me.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby chrisjwmartin » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:57 am UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:Generally though, this was a pretty stupid cartoon. I don't see what the point was.

I'm pretty sure it was "people who aren't from the UK think that British towns and cities have silly-sounding names; here are some words and names that are similar enough that they might be mistaken for the names of British towns. And also some real ones that I legitimately mistook for not really British towns because Poe's Law maybe?"

Sure, but why are British town names specifically silly? Almost every place name in the US is stupid. "Chicago" - what the hell is that? "Mississippi" - why not go the whole way and call it "Missississississississippi"? So many places have that dumb "New" prefix, like the city founders had insufficient braincells to come up with a real name. How about "New New York" as a silly name that might be mistaken for a real one? There's also your creepy habit of naming places after former leaders - Washington foremost. How about you rename "Schenectady" (bless you!) or wherever to "Trump"? Makes as much sense as "Washington" or "Lincoln" or "Jacksonville". Or you love "San ..." names - let's have "San Donald" and "San Barack" to go with the rest of them, that way you can indulge two of your stupidest naming conventions at once.

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Wee Red Bird » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:05 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:And it's even worse on the west coast, where "the midwest" is slightly to the east, "the west" is even further to the east, and "the middle east" is somewhat further west of "the east" which, as you've noted, is to the west.

Being in Scotland, we are forever hearing of places referred to as "up north", on British TV, which are always far down south to us."

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby CharlieP » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:40 am UTC

chrisjwmartin wrote:How about "New New York" as a silly name that might be mistaken for a real one?


Hey. Matt Groening's been on the money with a lot of his cartoon predictions so far...
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:45 pm UTC

chrisjwmartin wrote:
Steve the Pocket wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:Generally though, this was a pretty stupid cartoon. I don't see what the point was.

I'm pretty sure it was "people who aren't from the UK think that British towns and cities have silly-sounding names; here are some words and names that are similar enough that they might be mistaken for the names of British towns. And also some real ones that I legitimately mistook for not really British towns because Poe's Law maybe?"

Sure, but why are British town names specifically silly? Almost every place name in the US is stupid. "Chicago" - what the hell is that? "Mississippi" - why not go the whole way and call it "Missississississississippi"? So many places have that dumb "New" prefix, like the city founders had insufficient braincells to come up with a real name. How about "New New York" as a silly name that might be mistaken for a real one? There's also your creepy habit of naming places after former leaders - Washington foremost. How about you rename "Schenectady" (bless you!) or wherever to "Trump"? Makes as much sense as "Washington" or "Lincoln" or "Jacksonville". Or you love "San ..." names - let's have "San Donald" and "San Barack" to go with the rest of them, that way you can indulge two of your stupidest naming conventions at once.
Most of the "new" cities were named by British colonists, so you can hardly blame us for that. They also started the "naming after leaders" thing, with a bunch of states and cities named after inbred royals. And "San" cities were all named by the Spanish colonists who got there before the British or Americans. Names like Mississippi come from Native Americans, which doesn't exactly make up for the whole continuing genocide thing but is at least a slight nod to the fact that all of this land was stolen by white people.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Liri » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:16 pm UTC

A healthy fraction (a majority, maybe?) of state names are American Indian in origin. Plenty of cities, too. "Paris" is no less silly than "Chicago".

We do have towns like "Truth or Consequences" though, which sounds awesome and is menacingly located in the desert. So what if it was named as part of a radio program competition.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:42 pm UTC

Wee Red Bird wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:And it's even worse on the west coast, where "the midwest" is slightly to the east, "the west" is even further to the east, and "the middle east" is somewhat further west of "the east" which, as you've noted, is to the west.

Being in Scotland, we are forever hearing of places referred to as "up north", on British TV, which are always far down south to us."

You don't count. You're 'beyond the Wall'. Probably at least two of them... ;)


(Speaking as a southern Northerner myself, by my own estimation* with family back through the middle North and possibly skipping straight over the north North when my patronymic ancestor(s) moved there from the Borders. Which is to say that they would still be Southerners, probably (and/or Lowlanders, although then you have Furry Boot Tooners are Lowlanders but not Southerners), to yourself.)

* There would be people south of me who consider themselves Northern (not Midlanders), and people north of me who would not consider me Northern (possibly a Midlander). There are also people to my north who I'd class as mentally more southern, and people to the south who I'd just class as mental. That's without considering who I'd meet if I went West or East. ;)

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:03 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:And it's even worse on the west coast, where "the midwest" is slightly to the east, "the west" is even further to the east, and "the middle east" is somewhat further west of "the east" which, as you've noted, is to the west.

And in addition to east/west in the USA being centered on Washington DC & NYC ("east" is a cluster of tiny states in the northeast, with the rest split between "west" in the west and "midwest" in the center), north/south is defined by a war and a cultural attitude (mostly the war), so "south" means "southeast" and "north" means "northeast", and there are "north" states physically further south than "south" states, and nothing west of Texas is really either "north" or "south" (despite California and Oregon being "north" states in the war).

And Alaska and Hawaii don't matter at all in any direction.

It happens everywhere. We've covered my hemisphere, my country, and my city. So, my state of Minnesota has:
- "The Metro" (Minneapolis/St. Paul and its suburbs, if you live there)
- "The Cities" ("The Metro", if you don't live there)
- "Outstate" (not the metro)
- "Up North" (the central and north-central part of the state, which is probably only north of you if you live in the metro)
- "The Valley" (the northwest corner of the state. The name implies a change in elevation; the actual geography is ruler-flat, with a gradient of about 1:5000. There are also few trees, so when your dog runs away, you can watch him leave for two days. And despite Minnesota being the start of the largest river in North America, the Mississippi, "The Valley" is defined by the Red River of the North, which is about ten feet deep and a couple hundred feet wide.)

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby ps.02 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:40 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Image

Yeah, the Amerocentric Mercator always bugged me too, splitting the largest continent. That joke doesn't work nearly so well when you split the globe in the Pacific like a sane person.

Count me as another US "midwest" resident who is bemused that "the midwest" stretches as far east as Ohio and only barely west of the geographic center, and (to people on the coasts) mostly means "Chicago". (Is it fair if, in return, I choose to assume that the US east and west coasts can pretty much be summed up as NYC, LA and Portland?)

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:22 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:(Is it fair if, in return, I choose to assume that the US east and west coasts can pretty much be summed up as NYC, LA and Portland?)

Yeah that's about right except what's a Portland? Do we have a third coast somewhere I didn't know about?
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby chrisjwmartin » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:34 pm UTC

Liri wrote:A healthy fraction (a majority, maybe?) of state names are American Indian in origin. Plenty of cities, too.[/size]

Yes, and they all sound stupid. No wonder they were so easily wiped out.

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:23 pm UTC

[Nod to the troll, and] For quite a lot of my life, I'd only heard Somerset referred to in American places named for it, and assumed it was a Native American name until I found out about the British original.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:43 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:[Nod to the troll, and] For quite a lot of my life, I'd only heard Somerset referred to in American places named for it, and assumed it was a Native American name until I found out about the British original.

Tha's be "Zummerzet", innit snugh...

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:54 pm UTC

It did occur to me a while ago to wonder if Native American names sound more comical to non-Americans. Most of us grow up within easy driving distance of at least a few places with Native names, and several others are the names of states or major cities (and thus taught in elementary school) or got famous for other reasons (pardon me, boys, is this the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?) At a certain point, people tend to recognize the recurring patterns and internalize them to the point where even ones they've never heard before sound about as natural and normal as any English word they're learning for the first time. Though a few might cross the line into "Is that real or did you just make that one up" territory. I remember Sesame Street using "Kookamonga" as a punchline a few times, and if you're from the US, "Mississauga" might sound like a play on "Mississippi" and... I dunno, "Geauga" I guess?

So, yes, one could probably slap together an equivalent map of the US or North America in general. But since the vast majority of it would be essentially making fun of native peoples, it would be in far worse taste.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Liri » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:54 am UTC

Actually, you're probably right. The same thing is probably true with Australians and Aborigine place names. Names like Kalgoorlie, Barangaroo, and Wagga Wagga sound kinda silly to USian ears, for example.

An interesting thing I noticed when I was living there was that Australians tend to shorten names for everything that they could, which was vaguely irritating after a while. "Veg" for vegetable, "Aggro" for aggressive, "Breckie" for breakfast, etc. The one group of nouns they didn't shorten were Aborigine terms, no matter how onerous they might seem to non-Aussies. Which was kinda nice. Sort of a, "sorry about the Stolen Generations, let's make it up to you some other way!"
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:48 am UTC

We talk about "Veg(/gies)", "(a bit of) Aggro" and "Breckie" in the UK, too...

But I must admit that a lot of Aussie phraseology is that bit more exotic to our ears... (Or even to their own?)

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Liri » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:53 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:We talk about "Veg(/gies)", "(a bit of) Aggro" and "Breckie" in the UK, too...

But I must admit that a lot of Aussie phraseology is that bit more exotic to our ears... (Or even to their own?)

Yeah, well, Australian ones have their own Wikipedia page.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby da Doctah » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:25 am UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:It did occur to me a while ago to wonder if Native American names sound more comical to non-Americans. Most of us grow up within easy driving distance of at least a few places with Native names, and several others are the names of states or major cities (and thus taught in elementary school) or got famous for other reasons (pardon me, boys, is this the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?)


East-coast Native American names sound comical to me out here in the West. "Rappahannock", "Narragansett" and "Adirondack" seem silly next to perfectly sensible names like "Tlaquepaque", "Tumacacori" and "Lukachukai". And it's not just an east-west thing, because northwestern names like "Snoqualmie", "Queets" and "Puyallup" come off just as goofy.

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:55 am UTC

Liri wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:We talk about "Veg(/gies)", "(a bit of) Aggro" and "Breckie" in the UK, too...

But I must admit that a lot of Aussie phraseology is that bit more exotic to our ears... (Or even to their own?)

Yeah, well, Australian ones have their own Wikipedia page.

Almost half of those (43 out of 98 listed, if I tallied correctly) are common enough to the UK. Not even counting that I'd understand it when a suitably accented bloke in a light safari shirt talks about salties, or one in a singlet about the Abos...

I did count "compo", although most UKers would probably know that best as the everyday nickname of William Simmonite, even if they didn't actually connect it with that regional abbreviation of what is presumed to be his main, if meagre, source of income over many of his 'working' years (perhaps all, if "First of..." is considered correct in its retroactive continuity).

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby chrisjwmartin » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:09 am UTC

Liri wrote:Actually, you're probably right. The same thing is probably true with Australians and Aborigine place names. Names like Kalgoorlie, Barangaroo, and Wagga Wagga sound kinda silly to USian ears, for example.

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby chrisjwmartin » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:13 am UTC

da Doctah wrote:
Steve the Pocket wrote:It did occur to me a while ago to wonder if Native American names sound more comical to non-Americans. Most of us grow up within easy driving distance of at least a few places with Native names, and several others are the names of states or major cities (and thus taught in elementary school) or got famous for other reasons (pardon me, boys, is this the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?)


East-coast Native American names sound comical to me out here in the West. "Rappahannock", "Narragansett" and "Adirondack" seem silly next to perfectly sensible names like "Tlaquepaque", "Tumacacori" and "Lukachukai". And it's not just an east-west thing, because northwestern names like "Snoqualmie", "Queets" and "Puyallup" come off just as goofy.

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Felstaff » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:38 am UTC

chrisjwmartin, your noisome immaturity and mule-like whingeing is annoying. Take your tear-streaked face and throw your toys out of another forum's pram (i.e. no more posting in here for you).
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:41 pm UTC

chrisjwmartin wrote:
Liri wrote:Actually, you're probably right. The same thing is probably true with Australians and Aborigine place names. Names like Kalgoorlie, Barangaroo, and Wagga Wagga sound kinda silly to USian ears, for example.

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That's a bold move, Cotton. Let's see how it plays out.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:54 pm UTC

da Doctah wrote:
Steve the Pocket wrote:It did occur to me a while ago to wonder if Native American names sound more comical to non-Americans. Most of us grow up within easy driving distance of at least a few places with Native names, and several others are the names of states or major cities (and thus taught in elementary school) or got famous for other reasons (pardon me, boys, is this the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?)


East-coast Native American names sound comical to me out here in the West. "Rappahannock", "Narragansett" and "Adirondack" seem silly next to perfectly sensible names like "Tlaquepaque", "Tumacacori" and "Lukachukai". And it's not just an east-west thing, because northwestern names like "Snoqualmie", "Queets" and "Puyallup" come off just as goofy.

Yeah, I think language families definitely have something to do with how strange a place name sounds. Michigan was also populated by Algonquin-speaking peoples, so the New England names don't seem too unusual to me, but I can see how they would to someone from a place with a different indigenous language family.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby orthogon » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

Speaking of Native-American-derived place names, a source of serious confusion for us is Hauppauge, the NY town that gave its name to the computer hardware company. For some reason I thought for a long time that it was a Belgian company, and vaccilated between a Francophone "hoh-pohzh" and a more Germanic "how-powguh". Then somebody pointed out that their website tells you how to pronounce it: "hop-hog", and a lot of my colleagues do so. The trouble is, that's not right for us Brits either; what we ought to be doing is pronouncing it the way an upstate New Yorker would pronounce "hop-hog", which for us is more like "hap-haag". However, if I were to attempt that, nobody would have a clue what I was on about.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:19 pm UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:So, yes, one could probably slap together an equivalent map of the US or North America in general. But since the vast majority of it would be essentially making fun of native peoples, it would be in far worse taste.

Wait, wasn't the whole point of this comic to make fun of native British names?

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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:21 pm UTC

Yes, and none of those are vulnerable groups, because they're all either comfortably a part of the majority or long dead.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:43 pm UTC

orthogon wrote: source of serious confusion for us is Hauppauge
I don't think I've ever, despite being in the computer industry in many capacities and personal interests, actually spoken their name. In my head, though, it's always been "Hope-Page". Interestingly, if you prefer, to rhyme with "Taupe/Beige". (Or maybe I also pronounce "taupe" and/or "beige" wrong, too..? ;) )

Basically, I ignore the second 'u', or maybe assume that it's like "plague" or "vague" without worrying too much about the order of the 'g' amd 'u' except for a feeling that the 'g' softens during this switch I've ignored. I can't even think of a better precedent for my actual subconscious decisions!

It appears that I'm wrong, but that's my headcannnon, and I doubt I'll switch away from it so easily...


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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby somitomi » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:16 am UTC

orthogon wrote:Speaking of Native-American-derived place names, a source of serious confusion for us is Hauppauge, the NY town that gave its name to the computer hardware company. For some reason I thought for a long time that it was a Belgian company, and vaccilated between a Francophone "hoh-pohzh" and a more Germanic "how-powguh". Then somebody pointed out that their website tells you how to pronounce it: "hop-hog", and a lot of my colleagues do so. The trouble is, that's not right for us Brits either; what we ought to be doing is pronouncing it the way an upstate New Yorker would pronounce "hop-hog", which for us is more like "hap-haag". However, if I were to attempt that, nobody would have a clue what I was on about.

I'm sure a lot of car brands cause the same problem for people familiar with the "proper" ponunciation. For example, hearing the presenters of Top Gear pronounce Dacia was weird to me, because to me it has always been [ˈdat͡ʃi.a] (thanks, Wikipedia). Not because I'm some smartass, but because that's how Hungarians pronounce it. I'm wondering if Japanese people would recognise their own car brands, if they heard them from someone in Europe.
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Re: 1759: "British Map"

Postby Mikeski » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:18 am UTC

somitomi wrote:I'm wondering if Japanese people would recognise their own car brands, if they heard them from someone in Europe.

Depends what part of Europe. Since they share the same five vowel sounds (and use the same letters for them when Japanese is Romanized), a native Spanish-speaker shouldn't mangle them too badly, at least...


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