1902: "State Borders"

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1902: "State Borders"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:49 pm UTC

Image

Alt-text: "A schism between the pro-panhandle and anti-panhandle factions eventually led to war, but both sides spent too much time working on their flag designs to actually do much fighting."

It was only when the Euclideanists took over that all spherical aberrations went away… at the expense of the antipodes.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:11 pm UTC

My wrists are aching just imagining trying to hold a pot from the end of that handle.

For those who are lucky enough not to see me on FB, here's a sketch I did of a proposed USA wall.

wallmap1.jpg
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Cee-Ell » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:14 pm UTC

I dunno... if they give the Upper Peninsula to Wisconsin, Michigan for sure is gonna come back after the Toledo Strip in Ohio. Which admittedly was probably theirs in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War

Maybe they can fix the algae problem there; Ohio sure can't seem to.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby hamjudo » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:18 pm UTC

If Wisconsin gets the Upper Peninsula from Michigan, does that mean Michigan finally gets Toledo from Ohio?

If we get Toledo, can we get people to pronounce it "Too Lee Due"? That pronunciation is more fun than the one they use now.

Michigan-Ohio War over Toledo Strip.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby somitomi » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:28 pm UTC

I personally think New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachusetts should all be unified into a single state. You know what, Delaware, New Jersey and Maryland should be merged with Pennsylvania or Virginia (speaking of which, either rename it to "East Virginia" or unify it with West Virginia). Having separate state government and administration for such small areas in a continent-sized country is a waste of everyone's time. Besides, it would free up some space on the flag for Puerto Rico's star.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby sheltrk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:49 pm UTC

As a resident of Oklahoma, I approve of this plan. Clearly, Oklahoma needs to border more states--nine sounds like an excellent number! Also, I would no longer need to drive to Colorado or New Mexico to go skiing; we'd have Taos. Plus, we'd get a nice little slice of the Grand Canyon. That would be spiffy.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:54 pm UTC

hamjudo wrote:If Wisconsin gets ... Toledo, can we get people to pronounce it "Too Lee Due"? That pronunciation is more fun than the one they use now.


Depends -- how do you pronounce "sudo" ?
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby halkun » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:57 pm UTC

I wanted to see what the corrected version looked like. Looks like Two new states are created, but it does clean up the east coast

Image
Image

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby moody7277 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:02 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:I personally think New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachusetts should all be unified into a single state. You know what, Delaware, New Jersey and Maryland should be merged with Pennsylvania or Virginia (speaking of which, either rename it to "East Virginia" or unify it with West Virginia). Having separate state government and administration for such small areas in a continent-sized country is a waste of everyone's time. Besides, it would free up some space on the flag for Puerto Rico's star.


I'm sure Repubs would love that first part, makes 10 Dem senators (or rather 9 dems and 1 dem-socialist) into 2. As for the whole West Virginia thing, you may recall that it came about as a counter-secession at the start of the Civil War, so I don't know how they'd feel about reunifying.

The part of Alaska that those funny guys want to give to Canada contains the state capitol, so a bit of complication there.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby DanD » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:26 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:I personally think New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachusetts should all be unified into a single state. You know what, Delaware, New Jersey and Maryland should be merged with Pennsylvania or Virginia (speaking of which, either rename it to "East Virginia" or unify it with West Virginia). Having separate state government and administration for such small areas in a continent-sized country is a waste of everyone's time. Besides, it would free up some space on the flag for Puerto Rico's star.


Which is more complex to manage, land or people? Because if you're going to fuse the 1 million people in Rhode Island, then Wyoming wants to be fused with something else as well. Heck, you could fuse Wyoming, Montana, and the both Dakotas, and still have fewer people than Connecticut alone. Toss in Idaho and Nebraska and you're still less populous than New Jersey or Massachusetts.
Last edited by DanD on Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:28 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby ericgrau » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:27 pm UTC

The pan handle is an abomination that must be wiped from existence. The 3 states to the North should be brought down South to fix it. Also yes I counted right, they should be 3 states not 4. Utah likewise needs to merge with that silly mini-state.

There's actually an entire "How the States Were Made" series (Netflix I think) explaining why certain states got pieces that look like they should belong to their neighbor. Often it was for water rights and so on. Because such and such state would have little or no access to water or some other thing otherwise. I suspect a real attempt to try to clean up the state borders would be a political catastrophe.

The comic does bring up one of the several other reasons for the border locations: survey errors that were simply left in place once discovered decades later.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby orthogon » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:30 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
hamjudo wrote:If Wisconsin gets ... Toledo, can we get people to pronounce it "Too Lee Due"? That pronunciation is more fun than the one they use now.


Depends -- how do you pronounce "sudo" ?

It rhymes with "enum".
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby DanD » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:31 pm UTC

DanD wrote:
somitomi wrote:I personally think New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachusetts should all be unified into a single state. You know what, Delaware, New Jersey and Maryland should be merged with Pennsylvania or Virginia (speaking of which, either rename it to "East Virginia" or unify it with West Virginia). Having separate state government and administration for such small areas in a continent-sized country is a waste of everyone's time. Besides, it would free up some space on the flag for Puerto Rico's star.


Which is more complex to manage, land or people? Because if you're going to fuse the 1 million people in Rhode Island, then Wyoming wants to be fused with something else as well. Heck, you could fuse Wyoming, Montana, and the both Dakotas, and still have fewer people than Connecticut alone. Toss in Idaho and Nebraska and you're still less populous than New Jersey or Massachusetts.


Or, to put it another way:
Image

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:19 pm UTC

halkun wrote:I wanted to see what the corrected version looked like. Looks like Two new states are created, but it does clean up the east coast

Image

Aligning to grid isn't supposed to create any new states, because the original borders are eliminated, so Utah and Kansas just extend farther than they used to.

Also, I think RI is supposed to get all of Cape Cod in Randall's map.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby dtobias » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:36 pm UTC

They didn't address Point Roberts, WA, another quirky place that ought to be given to Canada.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Jorpho » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:57 pm UTC

Gee. You probably want to avoid this rabbit hole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Angle

DanD wrote:Which is more complex to manage, land or people? Because if you're going to fuse the 1 million people in Rhode Island, then Wyoming wants to be fused with something else as well.
Nah, there's no such place as Wyoming.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby pkcommando » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:23 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:Virginia (speaking of which, either rename it to "East Virginia" or unify it with West Virginia)

You're going in the wrong direction here. We kept Virginia and West Virginia as is, but add an East Virginia, a North Virginia, and a South Virginia. This is clearly the more logical solution.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:00 pm UTC

That grid alignment job is sloppy. Still need to pull up Wyoming's southern border to align with Oregon's and Idaho's, and New Mexico's eastern border similarly needs to be pulled in to align with Montana's, Wyoming's, and Colorado's new east too.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby airdrik » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:38 pm UTC

As a long-time resident of Idaho I have to say: Yay, Yellowstone!

Except that given his new border Idaho only gets about 1/3 of it (but hey, that's a lot more than the sliver we get currently - who drew that up like that anyway)
Now a problem with how he drew that new border is that the Idaho-Montana border is (well half of it because somehow the senator in charge of drawing that got offended about something and gave a bunch of what should have been more Idaho to Montana; but at least the half that connects with Wyoming is) the continental divide. So when extending that border it should also follow the continental divide which takes a quick dive to the south before connecting with Wyoming's new border.
I think that won't be acceptable to the graphic designers, so while we're adjusting Wyoming's southern border to align with the Oregon-Nevada border two options open up to try to account for Montana's new shape while also addressing the size of Wyoming compared to the states around it: Extend Wyoming west instead of east to line up with Utah's western border (no more Yellowstone, but eastern Idaho is practically a different state anyway), though that starts to intrude on the chin of the profile-of-a-face that forms the majority of the Idaho-Montana border; or extend Wyoming further north to either align with the inter-Dakota border (still a little small) or the Canada border (but then it looks really tall and skinny, but hey if they did that to Oklahoma..)

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby jello34543 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:22 pm UTC

As long as we're moving Long Island to Connecticut, can we move Staten Island to New Jersey too? Kill Van Kull and Arthur Kill are ~1/3 the width of the Verrazzano Narrows.

I'm also in favor of combining tiny population states. My senate neutral proposal:

Wyoming-Montana-Idaho
Vermont-New Hampshire-Maine
North Dakota-South Dakota-Nebraska
Maryland-Delaware-DC
Rhode Island-Connecticut

Alaska and Hawaii are annoyingly unmergable.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby pkcommando » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:39 pm UTC

jello34543 wrote:Alaska and Hawaii are annoyingly unmergable.

That's a problem for the engineers, we just need to be the idea people.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Eutychus » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:42 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:Gee. You probably want to avoid this rabbit hole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Angle
Hasn't Randall given it to Canada?

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Stargazer71 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:My wrists are aching just imagining trying to hold a pot from the end of that handle.

For those who are lucky enough not to see me on FB, here's a sketch I did of a proposed USA wall.

wallmap1.jpg


I'm sure there are several jokes in there, but I can't make out any of them. Obviously the wall around Austin is weird ... not sure why it's on that side of the wall. Also not sure why Idaho and California are on the same side of the wall ... yeah ... I don't get it.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Stargazer71 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

jello34543 wrote:As long as we're moving Long Island to Connecticut, can we move Staten Island to New Jersey too? Kill Van Kull and Arthur Kill are ~1/3 the width of the Verrazzano Narrows.

I'm also in favor of combining tiny population states. My senate neutral proposal:

Wyoming-Montana-Idaho
Vermont-New Hampshire-Maine
North Dakota-South Dakota-Nebraska
Maryland-Delaware-DC
Rhode Island-Connecticut

Alaska and Hawaii are annoyingly unmergable.


Senate neutral? Sure is. Congress neutral (and by extension, Electoral College neutral)? Not even close.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby j-beda » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:22 pm UTC

dtobias wrote:They didn't address Point Roberts, WA, another quirky place that ought to be given to Canada.


Hear, hear.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby moody7277 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:50 pm UTC

Stargazer71 wrote:Obviously the wall around Austin is weird ... not sure why it's on that side of the wall.


Austin is an island of sapphire set in a sea of crimson (using the current political party designations). The wall is there to keep the rednecks out.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby jello34543 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:53 pm UTC

Stargazer71 wrote:
jello34543 wrote:As long as we're moving Long Island to Connecticut, can we move Staten Island to New Jersey too? Kill Van Kull and Arthur Kill are ~1/3 the width of the Verrazzano Narrows.

I'm also in favor of combining tiny population states. My senate neutral proposal:

Wyoming-Montana-Idaho
Vermont-New Hampshire-Maine
North Dakota-South Dakota-Nebraska
Maryland-Delaware-DC
Rhode Island-Connecticut

Alaska and Hawaii are annoyingly unmergable.


Senate neutral? Sure is. Congress neutral (and by extension, Electoral College neutral)? Not even close.


I'll admit I didn't make any attempt to balance the House, but by design there are only a small number of seats in total in these states (29, if I can count correctly). All of the resulting states should get at least 2 Reps when reapportioned, and some quite a few more. Back of the envelope says that 21 of those 29 stay where they are just based on 5 new states plus the (former) states in my list that already have more than 1. In any event, at most 8 will move, probably fewer. Some of my new states will probably get an extra beyond the floor I'm calculating. A few seats will undoubtedly be scattered to other states, but I wouldn't expect it to be large numbers biased in one political direction. I'd be surprised if the net change of balance was more than a handful in the House.

In the Electoral College, the Dems will lose 3 due to the 23rd amendment becoming redundant (in addition to whatever changes happen in the house). Not trivial (~5%), but not a horrible shift relatively speaking. I would guess that MD-DE-DC gets one of those back anyway out of the 8 up for grabs in the House.

If you can provide better data suggesting a massive shift in the House/EC, I'd love to see it.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby somitomi » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:54 pm UTC

DanD wrote:
DanD wrote:
somitomi wrote:I personally think New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachusetts should all be unified into a single state. You know what, Delaware, New Jersey and Maryland should be merged with Pennsylvania or Virginia (speaking of which, either rename it to "East Virginia" or unify it with West Virginia). Having separate state government and administration for such small areas in a continent-sized country is a waste of everyone's time. Besides, it would free up some space on the flag for Puerto Rico's star.


Which is more complex to manage, land or people? Because if you're going to fuse the 1 million people in Rhode Island, then Wyoming wants to be fused with something else as well. Heck, you could fuse Wyoming, Montana, and the both Dakotas, and still have fewer people than Connecticut alone. Toss in Idaho and Nebraska and you're still less populous than New Jersey or Massachusetts.


Or, to put it another way:
Image

Fair point. But that looks really complicated, so let's just draw a rectangular grid over the US for aestethic's sake
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Scorpio3002 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:16 pm UTC

As a Wisconsinite, I think I can safely say that the UP is basically Wisconsin anyway.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:25 pm UTC

Didn't the whole "fifty-four forty or fight" business come from this very kind of pedantry in the first place?

Also why not just give all of Alaska to Canada? Let them spend the rest of eternity debating whether to do anything with the oil or not.

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So is the plan to redraw the boundaries every time new census data comes out, the same way we have to redraw congressional districts?
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby da Doctah » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:44 pm UTC

When your goal is to put places together because they have a lot in common, rather than to make the lines on a map produce pretty pictures, the work was done for you a couple of decades ago by Joel Garreau in his book "The Nine Nations of North America". Here's the pertinent illustration from that work:

Image

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby qvxb » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:51 am UTC

Change the name of our nation from United States of America (no disrespect intended, Amerigo Vespucci) to Unrivaled Sections of the Sensible Right (USSR).

With some changes, the song Back in the USSR could be the new national anthem. For example, change "keep your little comrade warm" to "keep your little conservative warm".

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby ucim » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:59 am UTC

...or "keep your little conservative worm".

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Solra Bizna » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:31 am UTC

cellocgw wrote:My wrists are aching just imagining trying to hold a pot from the end of that handle.

For those who are lucky enough not to see me on FB, here's a sketch I did of a proposed USA wall.


Were you hoping to keep Mormons away by walling Utah in? If so, you should know that Idaho actually has a greater Mormon density.

>_>

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:32 am UTC

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby RogueCynic » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:18 am UTC

I should talk to Randall. I have a part time job doing international shipping at UPS. Some of the misprints on the labels would make your heads spin. At least I hope they are misprints. Strongville, postal code 44394 is in the US Virgin Islands. Columbus, postal code 43229 is in Vanuatu, Bourne, postal code 02511 is in The Marshall Islands, Olyphant is in The United Arab Emirates (4 shipments from one shipper prove it), etc. As to the East/West Virginia debate, West Virginia is not a state. One principle of the Civil War was the country is indivisible. The states could not cede from the Union. The US Constitution says what is true on the federal level is also true on the state level, and when a conflict occurs, the federal government takes precedent. Therefore, West Virginia is not a real state.
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby BlckKnght » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:30 am UTC

I'm surprised the California-Mexico border didn't get a mention in the comic, since it's not quite East-West like you might think.

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo that ended the Mexican-American war in 1848 defined that part of the border as a straight line between the mouth of the Gila river (where it meets the Colorado river near what is now Yuma, AZ) and a point on the Pacific Ocean one nautical league south of San Diego Bay. The drafters of the treaty didn't actually know the angle of that line at the time, and it turns out it runs a little bit south of due west.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Morgan Wick » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:27 pm UTC

BlckKnght wrote:I'm surprised the California-Mexico border didn't get a mention in the comic, since it's not quite East-West like you might think.

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo that ended the Mexican-American war in 1848 defined that part of the border as a straight line between the mouth of the Gila river (where it meets the Colorado river near what is now Yuma, AZ) and a point on the Pacific Ocean one nautical league south of San Diego Bay. The drafters of the treaty didn't actually know the angle of that line at the time, and it turns out it runs a little bit south of due west.

If I recall, their main concern was just making sure San Diego went to the US, as the bay was important even at the time.

Align to grid: in general, I'm less concerned about drawing neat lines than ease of administration and cultural unity. I wonder what Randall's graphic designers would make of Europe, or the post-WWI Middle East. In this area, the Continental Divide portion of the Idaho-Montana border has been mentioned, but I believe I read (in the "How the States Got Their Shapes" book that inspired the History Channel series) one reason the Utah-Wyoming border is where it is (I know it's not scribbled out but you know that's just an oversight) might be a mountain range just on the Utah side of the border in that area. That elongated Idaho looks as offensive to me as anything else, and Wikipedia's map makes the Continental Divide in that area look like a nice neat curve (obviously probably smoother than the real thing), so I wouldn't have a problem with moving the border there, maybe curving inward to hit the aforementioned Utah mountains. This could result in moving the Wyoming-Colorado border south as well, at least west of the Continental Divide.

Nevada-Arizona border: That's the Colorado River, and giving a little thin slice of it to Nevada (and, it looks like, a smaller sliver to California) doesn't make much sense (and Arizona would balk at the Hoover Dam now being entirely in Nevada). What I would fix is the northwest corner of Arizona cut off from the rest of the state that I-15 passes through. Have Arizona follow the Colorado for the duration and give Utah a piece of the Grand Canyon. While we're at it, the Gold Rush is over, have the California-Nevada border follow the Sierra Nevadas instead of a pair of straight lines that bisect Lake Tahoe and result in US 395 existing in two segments in California.

If we have a panhandle...: Surprised Randall didn't just dump it.

Texas-Arkansas-Louisiana: The southern part of the Texas-Louisiana border is the Sabine River, which turns almost east-west shortly after the border leaves it. The point where it meets where the Oklahoma-Arkansas border would be is still a good distance south of I-20. But the Red River that forms the Oklahoma-Texas border turns almost due south a short distance east of where the Arkansas border leaves it, and stays that way all the way to Shreveport. Send the border there and send it south to rejoin the Sabine somewhere downriver of Shreveport (which effectively gives it to Texas but keeps Bossier City across the river in Louisiana).

Why should Florida get Alabama's coastline?: For those who know when Florida was Spanish, the real question is, why should Alabama, Mississippi, and arguably Louisiana get Florida's coastline?

Move Kentucky-Virginia border east: The Appalachians' mini-continental divide, separating waters flowing into the Gulf of Mexico from those flowing into the Atlantic directly, is actually a bit east of where Randall would move the border. And while I like the fact the existing border almost neatly bisects West Virginia, there's something to be said for keeping Virginia's western border at the first bank of mountains west of I-81. Randall, though, seems to want to extend the Tennessee-North Carolina border, which is doable but not particularly attractive to me since it results in I-81 running through just a sliver of Kentucky. But if the area set to change states moved to Tennessee rather than Kentucky, it would keep I-81 moving from Tennessee straight into Virginia, keep the valley it moves through in the area in a single state, and fixes the weirdness of the Tennessee-Virginia border running through Bristol (not ESPN's hometown), at the (potential) expense of Randall's graphic-design sensibilities.

Clean up West Virginia: Again, mountains. Although parts of the border with Virginia are pretty arbitrary and based more on which counties seceded during the Civil War, so there's room for improvement there, namely the chunk of the eastern handle around Martinsburg (see above), and the narrow point in Maryland is a problem, which following the Appalachians allows us to simply give it to WV (or regular Virginia if we're following the Apps' mini-divide) as Randall proposes. As for the northern/western handle, the Ohio border is the Ohio River, but I would have no problem giving the part north of the Mason-Dixon Line to Pennsylvania.

Enlarge Delaware: I'm fine with making the whole Delmarva Peninsula its own state rather than split between three (including a piece of Virginia connected to the rest by a single bridge), but it's worth noting that Delaware's western and southern borders are technically part of the Mason-Dixon Line (as it used to be part of Pennsylvania), and its northern border is this really weird circle that I guess was drawn around some church. One option would actually be to extend Pennsylvania south slightly to follow the Susquehanna and the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal, which gives it the area around Wilmington that's effectively a Philadelphia suburb anyway. If you keep the existing border with Pennsylvania, you could move the western border to the Susquehanna or Big Elk Creek.

Move Long Island: The only direct links to Connecticut are ferries, despite occasional aborted moves to construct bridges; land-based travelers must go through NYC. Move it to New Jersey and you might as well move all of New York City there. Make NYC and Long Island its own state (which some locals would love to do) and you might as well include North Jersey, Westchester County, and Connecticut's panhandle.

Straighten New York's east border: The current Massachusetts border follows nearby mountains fairly well. Those mountains then cut across the Hudson to become the Alleghenies, but that's where making NYC its own state comes in. Most of the Vermont border is Lake Champlain (which Randall seems to be fine with) with the connection to the straight-line southern part following the Poultney River; do we just keep following it into the mountains?

Enlarge Rhode Island: Surprised Randall would shrink his home state by giving away Cape Cod.

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Soupspoon
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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:20 pm UTC

Morgan Wick wrote:
BlckKnght wrote:Move Long Island: The only direct links to Connecticut are ferries, despite occasional aborted moves to construct bridges;
Mentions tunnels considered then rejected, but that was before the Chunnel finally happened. (One of the earliest proposals was actually made to Napoleon, but he rejected that one as too crazy!!!)

Distance-wise, it is almost exactly comparable. It doesn't use periodic ventilation shafts and it sits below the sea-bed (not cut'n'cover/sink'n'cover). Don't know much about the geology of Long Island Sound, but it's no longer so much of a challenge. Would still cost ($tens of billions, probably). That'd be a sticking point.

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Re: 1902: "State Borders"

Postby eran_rathan » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:32 pm UTC

Have you ever been to the South Shore? Rhode Island can have it.
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