2005: "Attention Span"

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2005: "Attention Span"

Postby MistyCat » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:28 am UTC

Image

Alt Text: "I didn't even realize they MADE a novelization of "Surf Ninjas." How did you-- Oh my god, it's signed by the author?!"

I'm confused.
The image did not appear. Clicking where the image should have been took me to:
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Re: Attention Span

Postby rhomboidal » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:32 am UTC

So the number "1" painted on Thomas the Tank Engine's side stood for ONE world government. It all makes sense now...

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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby theoriok » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:50 am UTC

Kwantzu Dudes!

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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby HES » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:37 am UTC

And now the Thomas the Tank Engine theme tune is stuck in my head.
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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:40 am UTC

(Actual TitleText, taken from the page-source and de-SafeWebCharred, is I didn't even realize they MADE a novelization of "Surf Ninjas." How did you-- Oh my god, it's signed by the author?! - But I was so distracted by OP's apparent failure to find it¹ and my own need to find out that I really haven't taken in the actual message of today's strip. Or notice that the TitleText was provided. At least by the time I finally posted this!)

¹ ((And, *cough cough*, maybe later subject to a Mod clearing up their first-comic-post in several ways. Even though it's all mostly there now.))

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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby cellocgw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:13 pm UTC

TL;DR
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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:14 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:(Actual TitleText, taken from the page-source and de-SafeWebCharred, is I didn't even realize they MADE a novelization of "Surf Ninjas." How did you-- Oh my god, it's signed by the author?! - But I was so distracted by OP's apparent failure to find it¹ and my own need to find out that I really haven't taken in the actual message of today's strip. Or notice that the TitleText was provided. At least by the time I finally posted this!)

¹ ((And, *cough cough*, maybe later subject to a Mod clearing up their first-comic-post in several ways. Even though it's all mostly there now.))


I think it's just the quotes round the comic title that are missing now.

Personally, what I want to know is what the book is - I don't own any books that are thicker than they are wide, and I don't think I own any that have a dragon holding a sword in its teeth (neither by the handle nor by the blade) on the cover (which, with certainty approaching 1, doesn't contain any such incident anywhere in the thousands of pages) despite having a number of fantasy novels that would be described as classics by outraged fans...

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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby Jorpho » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:37 pm UTC

I didn't notice the link to the New Yorker article the first time I saw the strip, though I had heard the theory about Thomas the Tank Engine previously. It's a good rabbit hole.

The missing piece, then, is the Surf Ninjas novelization:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9792011-surf-ninjas

Which is indeed written by a respectable character:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lerangis

I wonder if Randall has actually read it? Maybe it's another trip-fest like the Back to the Future novelization, which diverged so far from the movie that Ryan North wound up writing an eBook about it.
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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby Sableagle » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:05 pm UTC

Surf Ninjas was narrated by the Police Chief from Jaws?

There's an epic battle scene in there somewhere, isn't there? Tanada ninja clan on surf-boards versus Megalodon.
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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby cellocgw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:05 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Personally, what I want to know is what the book is - I don't own any books that are thicker than they are wide, and I don't think I own any that have a dragon holding a sword in its teeth (neither by the handle nor by the blade) on the cover (which, with certainty approaching 1, doesn't contain any such incident anywhere in the thousands of pages) despite having a number of fantasy novels that would be described as classics by outraged fans...

Neither Pinterest nor Google book cover image search turned up that picture.

A possible guess is Eragon by Christopher Paolini at 503 pages. Or maybe Randall's just trolling us.
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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm UTC

A rough and ready visual pick of the selection of books within my easy sight that seemingly most closely resemble "thicker than it is wide" (not including boxed collections, such as the whole ASoF&I one) are:

"Hack Attacks Revealed" (57mm vs 190mm, thickest of this larger-format books, though proportionally not so extreme)
Just discovered behind another book: "Mastering Delphi 4" (68mm vs 190mm, but similarly impressively thick only in its footprint-category)
"Teach Yourself Turbo C++ 4.5 for Windows In 21 Days" (48mm vs 185mm)
"Rainbow Six" (hardback, 62?mm vs 160mm including cover, 58mm vs 152 of only the nearly 750 paper page-quires within)
"The World of Contemporary Architecture" (43mm vs 140mm ,near identical thickness to The Gormenghast Trilogy, but that's 145mm wide)
"A Clash of Kings" (53mm vs 130mm, the only one of that boxset currently where I am)
"Blue Mars" (43mm vs 111mm, and Red/Green Marses are elsewhere at the moment so uncheckable)
"The Popular English Dictionary" (43mm, hardbacked, vs a tad over 100mm, or a tad under just of the quires within the cover)

I have a feeling that at least three more of the Clancy books (paperback!) I have stored elsewhere are going to have nearer-unity thickness to width than any of the ones above, plus perhaps one or two of my reference books there. Maybe a Lord Of The Rings compilation 'lazily' put together largely from the originally separate volume imprints into one single bound copy might be close to the practical manufacturing/handling, limit (for near-terminal stress upon the binding sleeve) and there are ultra-small "Little Book Of <Foo>"s that seem to be made cubic (or nearly so) in bound format, but mostly because they're below A7 in head-on footprint and aren't actually that thick to handle (though must be a pain to machine-bind!).

"Clash Of Kings" only has a crown on its cover (one or more of its siblings may have dragon and/or sword). I have a number of books depicting dragons and/or swords (Guards! Guards! with its Josh Kirby cover is the obvious one, with a sword held very close to a dragon's flaming mouth) but they're not notably thick, except for this Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire (twice as thick as any of the prior three, and has a dragon on the front in this series of the covers - which either did not continue or sold out, as I never bothered buying further in the series and mis-matching the covers just for the hum-drum derivative tale that I'd only started reading because I was told it was worthwhile). The very old badgered (maybe or maybe not dragonned) copy of The Hobbit would be my best guess off the top of my head of all those I could claim to possess, but is in the other location right now so I can't check. Besides which, post-Tolkein (and -Conan, etc) derivative fantasy literature is probably the main culprit you might bring to mind, and I've got relatively little in that line, myself, though I may well have borrowed just such a book from the library back in the '70s or '80s.

Now I' ve got to put all these books back. Once I've read some of them again. Hmm, page 934, Kidodaki House, by Tadao Ando. "This building stands on an irregularly shaped plot. The main building consists of a perfect cube with 12m (39ft) sides, around which is arranged thr rest of the house…" How apt a random find! But it has a further neobrutalist exterior and wrapping around that cube, out to meet the boundaries so it seems a bit of a cheat to call that cubeness its main feature. (And has no obvious dragons or swords in its design!)

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby heuristically_alone » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:33 pm UTC

The caste system is very rigid. There is one diesel engine, a black train known just as “Diesel,” who struggles to prove that he’s as useful as the steam trains. Less useful than Diesel are the female passenger coaches named Annie and Clarabel, who are awarded to Thomas as prizes after he helps with a train breakdown.

Kind of messed up.
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby MartianInvader » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:28 pm UTC

"Thomas, if you spend all your time worrying about silly things like freedom and equality, you'll never be REALLY useful!"
Let's have a fervent argument, mostly over semantics, where we all claim the burden of proof is on the other side!

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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby Old Bruce » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:30 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:TL;DR

Ditto

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Jorpho » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

A book thicker than it is wide is simply impractical, is it not? One would struggle to read it without a special stand. It would be something people would publish with the expectation that no one would actually read it.

I might suggest the Death Gate Cycle, but as far as I can tell it has never been published in a single volume.

The Great Book of Amber also springs to mind, but dragons do not feature at all in that series, and it is far from being thicker than it is wide.

Also, for a less-dark take on Thomas the Tank Engine, may I suggest Trains Formers?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWTCgkmlK-M

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby orthogon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:36 pm UTC

heuristically_alone wrote:
The caste system is very rigid. There is one diesel engine, a black train known just as “Diesel,” who struggles to prove that he’s as useful as the steam trains. Less useful than Diesel are the female passenger coaches named Annie and Clarabel, who are awarded to Thomas as prizes after he helps with a train breakdown.

Kind of messed up.

In fairness, black is the standard colour for diesel, at least at filling stations in the UK. And in the latest movie they introduced a genderfluid character and another who was on the spectrum.
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Sunidesus » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:10 pm UTC

I'm not at home so I can't actually measure but I'm thinking my paperback of Les Mis might get the closest. That thing is a brick. Or maybe Battlefield Earth, which is similarly brick shaped.

I have managed to plow my way through Les Mis (by purposely only taking that one book on vacation, pre-ereader), haven't managed to make it through Battlefield Earth.

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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby Sandor » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:17 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:A rough and ready visual pick of the selection of books within my easy sight that seemingly most closely resemble "thicker than it is wide" (not including boxed collections, such as the whole ASoF&I one) are:
[...]
"The Popular English Dictionary" (43mm, hardbacked, vs a tad over 100mm, or a tad under just of the quires within the cover)

I have a feeling that at least three more of the Clancy books (paperback!) I have stored elsewhere are going to have nearer-unity thickness to width than any of the ones above, plus perhaps one or two of my reference books there.

A lot of Peter F Hamilton paperbacks beat those. My copy of Judas Unchained is 55mm x 110mm x 177mm, or 0.5 times thick as it is wide. They're definitely thicker than any of my Clancy paperbacks.

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:32 pm UTC

Sunidesus wrote:I'm not at home so I can't actually measure but I'm thinking my paperback of Les Mis might get the closest. That thing is a brick. Or maybe Battlefield Earth, which is similarly brick shaped.
.


So you're saying that those books are....

... wait for it ...


Thick as Brick?
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Keyman » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm UTC

Sunidesus wrote:.... haven't managed to make it through Battlefield Earth.

You say that as if you're thinking "And someday I really should." If it helps you decide, wherever you are in the book, the rest is pretty much just like that. :roll:
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Sunidesus » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:04 pm UTC

Keyman wrote:
Sunidesus wrote:.... haven't managed to make it through Battlefield Earth.

You say that as if you're thinking "And someday I really should." If it helps you decide, wherever you are in the book, the rest is pretty much just like that. :roll:


Yeah, that wasn't great wording on my part. The only possible way I would try that thing again is out of some sick fascination. More of an "it can't really be as bad as I remember can it?" kind of thing. It's currently in the category of "books I know I should get rid of to give myself more shelf space", I just have a *really* hard time getting rid of books. Which would be why my bedroom walls are nearly all bookshelves.

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:06 pm UTC

Sunidesus wrote:I'm not at home so I can't actually measure but I'm thinking my paperback of Les Mis might get the closest. That thing is a brick. Or maybe Battlefield Earth, which is similarly brick shaped.

I have managed to plow my way through Les Mis (by purposely only taking that one book on vacation, pre-ereader), haven't managed to make it through Battlefield Earth.


I have a physical Battlefield Earth (unless I've managed to dispose of it at some point), but only a virtual Les Mis - and have completed both more than once.

Battlefied Earth sticks in my mind for its aggressive ignorance of mathematics - it's a key plot point that a) base ten arithmetic is intrinsically superior to all other number systems, to the point that its inventor is invariably celebrated (just like they are on Earth?) and b) base eleven arithmetic is so obtuse that the entire combined mathematical minds of the galaxy have been unable to decipher it.

The tank cunningly shaped so that a shell coming from any angle will come in at a glancing angle rather than hitting straight on is just an afterthought.

The book still managed to be better than the movie somehow...

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:09 pm UTC

Sunidesus wrote:I'm not at home so I can't actually measure but I'm thinking my paperback of Les Mis might get the closest. That thing is a brick. Or maybe Battlefield Earth, which is similarly brick shaped.

I have managed to plow my way through Les Mis (by purposely only taking that one book on vacation, pre-ereader), haven't managed to make it through Battlefield Earth.

I read BE (well before the film, and before I knew of Hubbard's whole other 'thing') as a loan from the library¹. I think that each of the Mission Earth books (decalogy) were similarly lengthy. And even less likely to be made into a Hollywood film. Without loads of edits and abridgement.

I read a lot of rubbish, back then. Pre-web (and, for me if not for DARPA et al, pre-Internet). That's changed now, of course. I'd tell you more, but I've just going to Google @realDonaldTrump to see how much fresh banging of my head against the desk I shall need to do tonight.


(It wasn't so much the maths that got me in BE, as the existence of a natural gas (to the alien world, which apparently spontaneously generated it in its own substrate exogeology or something) that reacts explosively to radiation. The stuff that's even more pervasive in the universe than 'stable' matter. Some nutty physics. You'd surely have to have some Anathem²-like alternate universe separation to make that physics work alongside our physics. And then allow enclaves of the Psyclos to be set up anywhere we exist, never mind the bassaltic regions then protected by a line of nuclear detonations as a New Hadrians Wall, for the benefit of the Scottish, or whatever. As you can probably tell, I'm not entirely sure I remember everything about the plot. But I definitelt had my doubts, back then.)

¹ L Ron's stuff was tame (in perversity) compared to some of the stock, when I think back.

² Anathem is a thick book!

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Showsni » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:45 pm UTC

heuristically_alone wrote:
The caste system is very rigid. There is one diesel engine, a black train known just as “Diesel,” who struggles to prove that he’s as useful as the steam trains. Less useful than Diesel are the female passenger coaches named Annie and Clarabel, who are awarded to Thomas as prizes after he helps with a train breakdown.

Kind of messed up.


Not true, though - what about BoCo, Mavis and Daisy? They're all diesel engines, who might sometimes start out a bit stuck up in some cases but end up friends of the other engines.

I don't know why anyone would be surprised at some of the darker themes in Thomas, though - engines escaping from being scrapped is pretty common. I suppose it's because it's set in a world that both treats engines as mere objects (as in the real world) but also humanises them. I have Stepney the Bluebell Engine, and, yeah, pretty dark...

Spoiler:
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby RogueCynic » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:27 am UTC

... and Ringo's part in this scheme is?


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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby orthogon » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:34 am UTC

RogueCynic wrote:... and Ringo's part in this scheme is?

Well, no conspiracy theory is complete without a dollop of antisemitism, so ...

(Did I just Godwin the thread?)
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby AverageWriter » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:21 am UTC

Not entirely sure about the rest of that New Yorker article, but I can say that it's being blatantly dishonest about Henry.

The episode where he is walled up is only a smaller part of a larger story arc that finishes with Henry To The Rescue, where they restart his boiler, put his tracks back and he redeems himself and saves the day.

But the article fails to mention that, talking darkly about train "death sentences" and other such.

That kind of dishonesty in writing makes me suspect the rest of anything that is written by that author, as it degrades his credibility significantly.

This is Henry to the Rescue, the follow up to the episode mentioned prior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWtNGzGZTCo

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby freezeblade » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:55 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Anathem is a thick book!


I was going to list another Stephenson book that may fit the "thicker than it is wide" criteria: Cryptonomicon.

That book is a beast. I'll check if I still have it when I'm at home. I may not have it anymore though, I eventually lost interest in all of the characters somewhere around half-way though. If I don't care about the characters, I have a hard time caring about the plot.
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Lode » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:59 pm UTC

"Dystopian world of thomas the tank engine" reminds me of "Thomas The Tank Engine : Shed 17" (warning: not for sensitive viewers)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=462KBuAhncU
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:52 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:Anathem is a thick book!


I was going to list another Stephenson book that may fit the "thicker than it is wide" criteria: Cryptonomicon.

That book is a beast. I'll check if I still have it when I'm at home. I may not have it anymore though, I eventually lost interest in all of the characters somewhere around half-way though. If I don't care about the characters, I have a hard time caring about the plot.

I have it! Should have it. Somewhere. Not sure where.

I think I know what you mean about the characters (across both eras, with co-dynastic coincidences abounding. Though I obviously held on better than you indicate. Some interesting touches along the way helped, such as the bit with Turing. And the the ad-hoc 'anti-snooping' protocol developed to defeat the attempts to use equally technologically outrageous methods of bugging on that laptop.

(One might suggest that it's 'classic' Neal, perhaps made more troubling by being placed in a contemporary(/living memory) setting rather than beyond any 20-minutes-into-the-future threshold, and/or across in an avowedly alternate universe of some form or other.)

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby freezeblade » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:25 pm UTC

Spoilered for off-topic talk about Stephenson
Spoiler:
I feel like Stephenson style is best applied to story-lines that take place in the future. I loved both Snowcrash and Diamond Age (Diamond Age especially), but have a hard time with any of his "historical fiction." Maybe it's a suspension of disbelief thing, or that I feel that his sci-fi world building (of which I love) works out better when it does not have a concrete historical structure he must work around.

Then there's Stephenson syndrome, where all of the storyline threads tie together, ramping up to what appears to be a crescendo, a high point, then...it walks into the sea.

Soupspoon wrote:
freezeblade wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:Anathem is a thick book!


I was going to list another Stephenson book that may fit the "thicker than it is wide" criteria: Cryptonomicon.

That book is a beast. I'll check if I still have it when I'm at home. I may not have it anymore though, I eventually lost interest in all of the characters somewhere around half-way though. If I don't care about the characters, I have a hard time caring about the plot.

I have it! Should have it. Somewhere. Not sure where.

I think I know what you mean about the characters (across both eras, with co-dynastic coincidences abounding. Though I obviously held on better than you indicate. Some interesting touches along the way helped, such as the bit with Turing. And the the ad-hoc 'anti-snooping' protocol developed to defeat the attempts to use equally technologically outrageous methods of bugging on that laptop.

(One might suggest that it's 'classic' Neal, perhaps made more troubling by being placed in a contemporary(/living memory) setting rather than beyond any 20-minutes-into-the-future threshold, and/or across in an avowedly alternate universe of some form or other.)
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby GlassHouses » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:27 pm UTC

I like that in this comic, the phrase "just saying" is followed by an actual statement.

Although it makes me a bit meta-sad that this makes me happy, sort of like when I see "as far as" and there actually is an "is concerned" or at least "goes" at the end of the sentence.

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby tibfulv » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

I have the same attention span problem. And I think I've been afflicted by it since I was 17, though it only became obvious as a problem when I found I couldn't finish books any more ten years ago. Went to a psychologist to get it fixed, and she told me I was so out of shape reading exhausted me. Told me to get some exercise. She didn't tell me which exercise though, so I had to do some testing. Turned out 30 minutes a day of 60-70% of maximum pulse rate for three months fixes it. Though you'll want more if you don't want to slip right back in. By the way, that will also fix suicidal urges, but don't ask how I know that, lol.

Edit: By the way, consistent exercise is better than variable. So get an exercise bike if you can.
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby orthogon » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:19 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:I like that in this comic, the phrase "just saying" is followed by an actual statement.

Although it makes me a bit meta-sad that this makes me happy, sort of like when I see "as far as" and there actually is an "is concerned" or at least "goes" at the end of the sentence.

The reason being, is that language is changing.

IMHO, "the reason being" is pointless anyway: I'm not sure there's any situation where replacing it with "because" (and adjusting the punctuation accordingly) doesn't improve the sentence in every way.

"As far as <X> is concerned" is a useful construction: it allows us to qualify a statement as applying only within the limited scope of <X>. This is usefully different to "regarding" or "concerning", which just indicate the topic without restricting the scope in the same way. But the syntax is unfortunate in that it's liable to create centre-embedded constructions, which are cognitively taxing. A proficient listener will know the "... is concerned" is coming and can disregard it, but it's still an encumbrance. Unless <X> is a very short Noun Phrase, the temptation to omit the closing words and make life easier for both parties is going to be hard to resist. And the result isn't actually that bad: unlike "the reason being is", it's ok grammatically and it kind of makes sense.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:46 pm UTC

I never encounter that "the reason being is" construction, and I really don't see why anyone would use it when they could just leave the "is" out and have something grammatically correct and shorter. E.g. "Unlike most people around here, Alice goes shopping every single day, the reason being that she doesn't have a car and so can only carry one small bag of groceries per trip." It's true that you could just substitute "because" for "the reason being that", but I don't see why anyone would ever put an "is" in there, and I don't think I ever really see that done either.
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby orthogon » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:04 pm UTC

Indeed. In my experience, it's more a spoken thing than something you see in writing, and may well be a peculiarly British affliction. It's the kind of pompous verbosity that people come out with to try to sound formal and educated, but has the reverse effect when they get it wrong. I get the impression that people parse "the reason being" as a phrase (a NP?) meaning "the reason that pertains", a bit like "the powers that be". The phrase "the time being" might also be an influence. People are so used to seeing "be" and its various forms turning up in apparently nonsensical or ungrammatical constructions (fossilised subjunctives and whatnot) that they're probably less likely to question it in this case than they would for a more ordinary, regular verb.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 2005: Attention Span

Postby colonel_hack » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:22 pm UTC

Sandor wrote:A lot of Peter F Hamilton paperbacks beat those. My copy of Judas Unchained is 55mm x 110mm x 177mm, or 0.5 times thick as it is wide. They're definitely thicker than any of my Clancy paperbacks.

Nobody's said ``novels only'' yet so
Handbook of chemistry & Physics (CRC) 29th edition (1945) 73mm x 123mm x 170mm, .59 times thick as it is wide.

And I think I'll make a cover for it with a gun toting dragon on it.

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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Keyman » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:43 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I never encounter that "the reason being is" construction, and I really don't see why anyone would use it when they could just leave the "is" out and have something grammatically correct and shorter. E.g. "Unlike most people around here, Alice goes shopping every single day, the reason being that she doesn't have a car and so can only carry one small bag of groceries per trip." It's true that you could just substitute "because" for "the reason being that", but I don't see why anyone would ever put an "is" in there, and I don't think I ever really see that done either.

Does one need the "that" here? My wife and I have this disagreement about 'that' often. She's gone so far as to pull articles from magazines, cross out the extraneous ones, and mail the article to the author/publisher/editor.

We do both agree about "where we're/you're at", though. :evil:
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:50 pm UTC

"That" is mostly a matter of style. Some omit it as unnecessary, I prefer to retain it for clarity but see no grammatical problem with omitting it.
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Re: 2005: "Attention Span"

Postby heuristically_alone » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:27 pm UTC

Every time a circumstance arises for an inclusion of "that", I spens several minutes contemplating whether to omit it or not.
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