2076: "Horror Movies 2"

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2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:33 pm UTC

Image
Title text: “When I was a kid, someone told me the end of The Giver was ambiguous, which surprised me. I had just assumed Jonah died--because the book had a medal on the cover, and I knew grown-ups liked stories where sad stuff happens at the end for no reason.

I hate roller coasters too, but that's mostly just because they discriminate against tall people.
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I hate roller coasters too, but that's mostly just because they discriminate against tall people.


And short people.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby da Doctah » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:05 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I hate roller coasters too, but that's mostly just because they discriminate against tall people.


Interesting. That's the reason I hate the mirrors in public restrooms.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:09 pm UTC

Discrimination takes many forms.
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Weeks » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:22 pm UTC

"But why not *good* feelings?" romcoms, straight up comedies, action movies, adventure movies, animated movies...
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby DavidSh » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:28 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I hate roller coasters too, but that's mostly just because they discriminate against tall people.

In what way do roller coasters descriminate against tall people? Leg room? Your head gets different accelerations from the heads of short people? What?

Weeks wrote:"But why not *good* feelings?" romcoms, straight up comedies, action movies, adventure movies, animated movies...

Animated movies like Grave of the Fireflies?

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:36 pm UTC

DavidSh wrote:
SDK wrote:I hate roller coasters too, but that's mostly just because they discriminate against tall people.

In what way do roller coasters descriminate against tall people? Leg room? Your head gets different accelerations from the heads of short people? What?

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Weeks » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:33 pm UTC

DavidSh wrote:
Weeks wrote:"But why not *good* feelings?" romcoms, straight up comedies, action movies, adventure movies, animated movies...

Animated movies like Grave of the Fireflies?

yes I knew I would get a pedant to nitpick my comment, apologies for my lack of elaboration dear sir!

SOME animated movies. Like Shrek. Or Kung-fu Panda. Or The Incredibles.
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Weeks » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:35 pm UTC

DavidSh wrote:Animated movies like Grave of the Fireflies?
Horror movies like The Cabin in the Woods?!?!?!? Comedy movies like Life is Beautiful?!?!?!?!?!????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??!?!?!!????????????????????
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Jorpho » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:53 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I had just assumed Jonah died--because the book had a medal on the cover, and I knew grown-ups liked stories where sad stuff happens at the end for no reason.
So much of the time as a youth I felt like whoever was handing those things out were entirely clueless as to what children might actually enjoy reading. Dear Mr. Henshaw was kind of neat. Maybe Island of the Blue Dolphins. I was about to mention Hatchet, but it turns out it did not win the Newberry medal.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby ijuin » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:55 am UTC

Meh, literature awards have nothing to do with how entertaining the story is and everything to do with whatever the literary critics consider to be “high art”.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Sableagle » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:10 am UTC

Oh, that kind of medal on the cover.

I thought you meant something like this:

Image
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The stories behind those often include the main character dying.

After all, a medal is just the nicest of the MoD's many ways of calling its junior employees stupid bastards.
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:45 am UTC

ijuin wrote:Meh, literature awards have nothing to do with how entertaining the story is and everything to do with whatever the literary critics consider to be “high art”.

Nailed it. I'm always a little comforted to be reminded that I was not the only child to be variously baffled, depressed, and/or pissed off by the Newberys.

(Though what's really crazy is to look through the list and see how many actually totally great reads are in the also-rans - it's like a bunch of people individually recommend some really excellent books but somehow they can only ever form a consensus on miserable, mopey junk, outside of the rare occasions where something like A Wrinkle in Time breaks through that barrier.)
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby New User » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:09 am UTC

But some people like what I don't like! Shouldn't something be done about that?

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Kit. » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:51 am UTC

New User wrote:But some people like what I don't like! Shouldn't something be done about that?

You can be taught to like some of it.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby rhhardin » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:43 pm UTC

Nicholas Sparks is your screenwriter for killing off the love interest at the end. Women love that stuff.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby rhhardin » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:48 pm UTC

Dilbert makes a movie date
https://dilbert.com/strip/2010-12-10

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby GlassHouses » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:02 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Meh, literature awards have nothing to do with how entertaining the story is and everything to do with whatever the literary critics consider to be “high art”.

Sometimes they get it right. Example: one birthday many years ago, a relative gave me One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez. I had never read anything by Márquez before, but I knew he had won the Nobel Prize for Literature at some point, which of course meant that this guy wrote Literature with a big L, i.e. unreadable.

So, I was thoroughly intimidated, and the book gathered dust, unread, on my night stand, for a long time.

I finally started reading it, thinking, well it's a gift, I should at least give it a try, if only because it would be embarrassing if the giver ever asked me about it.

To my great surprise, it turned out to be a great read, and I loved it, start to finish.

Still can't stand most Literature, though.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby xtifr » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:39 pm UTC

Well, at least this time, Randall is acknowledging that some people might have reasons for liking things he doesn't. Which is an improvement over Horror Movies 1. On the other hand, he's now dismissing not just horror, but all of drama, which is a bit over the top, I think.

On the topic of "great literature": when I was a teen, my grampa, worried that my parents were rotting my mind with all that "sci-fi crap" that they read, got me a huge box of classics of literature, and a promise that if I finished it all, he'd get me piloting lessons. I gave it a fair go, and I'd estimate that around 40% of it was actually pretty decent, and another maybe 20% was stuff I could see why people might like, even if it wasn't to my tastes.

My later experience suggests those percentages hold pretty well for most stuff that's called "great literature". More than half of it is stuff I have no interest in reading, but less than half is actually bad. Some of it (like, I agree, One Hundred Years of Solitude) is actually quite good.

(And my grampa did not manage to "cure" me of liking science fiction, but at least he didn't have to shell out for expensive lessons.) :)
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby astrus » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:23 pm UTC

Offhand, I can't think of a single genre I'd dismiss in its entirety.
Romance generally makes me groan or at least roll my eyes but there's a handful of stories I still find enjoyable.
Lately I've found myself watching sports movies, despite having no interest whatsoever in any sports, and I find some of the stories pretty engaging aside from the sports angle.

As for Horror, I don't care for jumpscares either and am pretty indifferent about stories where the whole point is people getting killed but Horror ist still one of my favorite genres. I absolutely dig psychological and/or existential horror, I'm just steering clear of the splatter titles (unless it's so over the top the whole thing gets a dark comedic twist I do enjoy those).

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Sprocket » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:28 pm UTC

See, I don't like horror movies, cuz I don't like being scared, and even worse don't like the tricks my mind plays on me for two terrified weeks after I watch one. But I love stuff like The XFiles and Supernatural. It's spooky but not scary I guess?

But drama and such don't bother me, except when it feels over manufactured. In many ways I should love a movie like The Prestige but there was all this MELLOW DRAMA and PAIN that just felt so overwrought and try hard. Made the whole movie feel stupid to me. Some Amanda Palmer songs feel like that to me too. I just get this feeling like "this whole thing is just an attempt to provoke a feeling, but you forgot about sincerity."
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby ysth » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:38 am UTC

I found this comic concerning, given the number of people who real-life enacted https://m.xkcd.com/249/.
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Showsni » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:13 am UTC

xtifr wrote:Well, at least this time, Randall is acknowledging that some people might have reasons for liking things he doesn't. Which is an improvement over Horror Movies 1. On the other hand, he's now dismissing not just horror, but all of drama, which is a bit over the top, I think.


Not all of drama - just tragedies. I can get behind that. I always prefer a happy ending.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Sableagle » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:15 am UTC

ysth wrote:I found this comic concerning, given the number of people who real-life enacted https://m.xkcd.com/249/.

What are you afraid is going to happen? A reprint of the original My Little Pony movie sold out in pre-order?
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby rhhardin » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:01 pm UTC

According to the professor in Stranger than Fiction (2006) the difference between a tragedy and a comedy is that in a tragedy you die and in a comedy you get married.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby oreoexpo » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:50 pm UTC

" I had just assumed Jonah died"

Jonas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giver

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:28 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
ysth wrote:I found this comic concerning, given the number of people who real-life enacted https://m.xkcd.com/249/.

What are you afraid is going to happen? A reprint of the original My Little Pony movie sold out in pre-order?

Shakespeare is going to get so many emails about how to improve his stories...

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby DanD » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:54 pm UTC

xtifr wrote:\ I gave it a fair go, and I'd estimate that around 40% of it was actually pretty decent, and another maybe 20% was stuff I could see why people might like, even if it wasn't to my tastes.

My later experience suggests those percentages hold pretty well for most stuff that's called "great literature". More than half of it is stuff I have no interest in reading, but less than half is actually bad. Some of it (like, I agree, One Hundred Years of Solitude) is actually quite good.


Then, given Sturgeon's law, it's doing quite well.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby GlassHouses » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:00 pm UTC

astrus wrote:Lately I've found myself watching sports movies, despite having no interest whatsoever in any sports, and I find some of the stories pretty engaging aside from the sports angle.

In that case, take a look at Bull Durham, if you haven't already. I found it highly enjoyable, despite not giving a fig about baseball. In fact, I think I'll go look for it on iTunes tonight. :)

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby xtifr » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:49 pm UTC

DanD wrote:
xtifr wrote:I gave it a fair go, and I'd estimate that around 40% of it was actually pretty decent, and another maybe 20% was stuff I could see why people might like, even if it wasn't to my tastes.

My later experience suggests those percentages hold pretty well for most stuff that's called "great literature". More than half of it is stuff I have no interest in reading, but less than half is actually bad. Some of it (like, I agree, One Hundred Years of Solitude) is actually quite good.


Then, given Sturgeon's law, it's doing quite well.

Yes, well, given that "great literature" is stuff that is supposed to have already gone through a crap filter, you wouldn't expect Sturgeon to apply. While Sturgeon did say "90% of everything is crap", I don't think me meant that to be applied recursively--if it were, you could easily prove that everything is crap, which rather contradicts the thesis and undermines Sturgeon's main point.

The fact that so much of this stuff which is supposed to be "the other 10%" is still crap simply demonstrates that our collective filtering skills are not-so-great...

astrus wrote:Offhand, I can't think of a single genre I'd dismiss in its entirety.
Romance generally makes me groan or at least roll my eyes but there's a handful of stories I still find enjoyable.

Romance is tricky, because the term is applied both to simple love stories and to girly-porn. Which really should be separate genres, but re-using the name allows people to pretend they're not reading porn. But yes, Sturgeon's law definitely applies here.

The failure mode of Romance can be particularly annoying: sticky, cloying and saccharine. Which can make the genre off-putting. But the good stuff is indeed still good. By an amazing coincidence. :)
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Reka » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:37 pm UTC

rhhardin wrote:Nicholas Sparks is your screenwriter for killing off the love interest at the end. Women love that stuff.

Speak for yourself. I can't stand the stuff. Also, I'll always choose a superhero movie over a rom-com.

I totally agree with Randall about horror movies (and roller coasters), by the way. Life is short, why spend it watching bad things happen/subjecting yourself to unpleasant sensations?

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:13 pm UTC

xtifr wrote:Yes, well, given that "great literature" is stuff that is supposed to have already gone through a crap filter, you wouldn't expect Sturgeon to apply. While Sturgeon did say "90% of everything is crap", I don't think me meant that to be applied recursively--if it were, you could easily prove that everything is crap, which rather contradicts the thesis and undermines Sturgeon's main point.


Sturgeon's main point was that, while it was hard to defend against the critics that dismissed SF because 90% of it was crud, applying the same standards to mainstream literature or any other genre or just about anything else would let you dismiss them for being 90% crud too.

There is an argument to be made that creations are graded on a curve - if you discarded the 90% that's currently judged as crud, then standards would adjust to make 90% of that surviving 10% crud by those standards.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Keyman » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:16 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
xtifr wrote:Yes, well, given that "great literature" is stuff that is supposed to have already gone through a crap filter, you wouldn't expect Sturgeon to apply. While Sturgeon did say "90% of everything is crap", I don't think me meant that to be applied recursively--if it were, you could easily prove that everything is crap, which rather contradicts the thesis and undermines Sturgeon's main point.


Sturgeon's main point was that, while it was hard to defend against the critics that dismissed SF because 90% of it was crud, applying the same standards to mainstream literature or any other genre or just about anything else would let you dismiss them for being 90% crud too.

There is an argument to be made that creations are graded on a curve - if you discarded the 90% that's currently judged as crud, then standards would adjust to make 90% of that surviving 10% crud by those standards.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Archgeek » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

Keyman wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
xtifr wrote:Yes, well, given that "great literature" is stuff that is supposed to have already gone through a crap filter, you wouldn't expect Sturgeon to apply. While Sturgeon did say "90% of everything is crap", I don't think me meant that to be applied recursively--if it were, you could easily prove that everything is crap, which rather contradicts the thesis and undermines Sturgeon's main point.


Sturgeon's main point was that, while it was hard to defend against the critics that dismissed SF because 90% of it was crud, applying the same standards to mainstream literature or any other genre or just about anything else would let you dismiss them for being 90% crud too.

There is an argument to be made that creations are graded on a curve - if you discarded the 90% that's currently judged as crud, then standards would adjust to make 90% of that surviving 10% crud by those standards.

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:40 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:Shakespeare is going to get so many emails about how to improve his stories...

Too many cliches. Keeps referencing book titles for no apparent reason. Takes popular musicals/scifi and redoes them without songs/spaceships…

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby YTPrenewed » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:39 am UTC

SDK wrote:Image
Title text: “When I was a kid, someone told me the end of The Giver was ambiguous, which surprised me. I had just assumed Jonah died--because the book had a medal on the cover, and I knew grown-ups liked stories where sad stuff happens at the end for no reason.

I feel like it might have to do with perceived honesty. I know as a kid I didn't like Spider-Man 2 that much because it just felt so depressing. Now I'm more like "yeah, just about all of this and more needed to be said about the adult world."

We sugar-coat its realities way too much. I'm assuming the late 20th centure was a peak time to be a kid; you wouldn't see the same kind of strict discipline or as many depressing realities imposed on them as in 50s style parenting, (Lion King notwithstanding; and even there Simba still gets to talk to his dad's ghost) and before the Internet was powerful enough to facilitate today's narcissistic hyper-competitiveness over everything from looks to money.

I'm not too fond of downer endings (though their existence might play a role in suspense as to whether or not the story will have a happy ending; not that suspense as to how can't be comparably memorable) but bittersweet ones are a good way of saying "some things will work out, some won't." That and driving home how permanent some consequences to actions can be.

As for a modern-day alternative to Romeo&Juliet, try "The Perfect Pear" from MLP:FIM. Has singing and bright colours and everything. And you don't have to read it, just sit back and watch. Still sad, but a bit more mildly, and the sadness makes the positive note it ends on all the more unforgettable. (Good ol' mood-whiplash.)

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby da Doctah » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:45 pm UTC

YTPrenewed wrote:I'm not too fond of downer endings (though their existence might play a role in suspense as to whether or not the story will have a happy ending; not that suspense as to how can't be comparably memorable) but bittersweet ones are a good way of saying "some things will work out, some won't." That and driving home how permanent some consequences to actions can be.


Which ending do you consider the bigger downer: "1984" or "Old Yeller"? (And before you answer, remember, only one of them had a sequel.)

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:53 pm UTC

Oh, that's easy. 1984 is tonally consistent throughout and its ending, as bleak as it is, is entirely in keeping with the rest of the book. Old Yeller on the other hand is a textbook example of juvenile fiction that reads perfectly normally for most of its length before suddenly going out of its way to rub the reader's nose in disease, death, and depression.
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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby YTPrenewed » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:48 am UTC

da Doctah wrote:
YTPrenewed wrote:I'm not too fond of downer endings (though their existence might play a role in suspense as to whether or not the story will have a happy ending; not that suspense as to how can't be comparably memorable) but bittersweet ones are a good way of saying "some things will work out, some won't." That and driving home how permanent some consequences to actions can be.


Which ending do you consider the bigger downer: "1984" or "Old Yeller"? (And before you answer, remember, only one of them had a sequel.)

I'm not sure, as I've yet to watch either movie, and I'm not entirely sure any full movie I've watched has an ending that'd even count as anything worse than bittersweet. (I'm a sucker for cute and colourful content, be it family-friendly like Disney or... not so much, like anime.) I've watched the ending to Chinatown, but not having watched most of the movie, I'm not sure that fully reflects how hard it was supposed to hit.

I've heard of the Old Yeller ending, though I wish there were a better way to raise awareness about animal diseases. Maybe one where the villain dies because a rabid animal bit them or something?

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Re: 2076: "Horror Movies 2"

Postby New User » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:56 pm UTC

I'd consider Chinatown's ending a downer ending. The protagonist gains nothing, and loses his love interest. The villain gets away with his scheme unpunished, but loses his daughter. She is revealed to have lived a very troubled life, and dies after she sees hope of being able to escape that life. The villain retains custody of his granddaughter, and it's heavily implied that she will be abused by him and have a very troubled life as well. The only thing I can imagine positive about any of this is that the villain's plan to frame the protagonist failed, but the protagonist gained nothing from that.


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