0377: "Journal 2"

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rrwoods
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby rrwoods » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:17 pm UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:Blayze seems to be reading "growth" as "YOU MUST CONFORM!"

I'm not so sure -- I think that Blayze seems to be reading many other peoples' definitions of growth as conformity. I'm not sure I agree (different people, different environments; regardless, it doesn't change my point about what I think you said) but Blayze: Props or slops here?
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby cathrl » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:24 pm UTC

Nope, not reading eight pages of discussion. I just popped in to say YAY! Way to slap down an arrogant prick!

(And now she's off to laugh about him with her friends :D )

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Blayze » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:39 pm UTC

Blayze: Props or slops here?


As in the comic? Well, part of me is glad to see an asshole (Even a classhole) get taken down a peg or two. It's the part of me that loved watching Revenge of the Nerds, after all. The part of me that enjoys watching assholes cause havoc, however, is apprehensive at this latest event.

I'm sad to see the hat get stolen, though. I'll always remember the good times... Then again, Guy is probably the sort of person who SmartWaters everything he owns.

So yeah, "Good comic and waiting to see how this develops, and hoping for the return of the hat."

I'm not so sure -- I think that Blayze seems to be reading many other peoples' definitions of growth as conformity.


It's not so much a person evolving as it is them changing to suit the opinions and decisions of other people. Even if you don't call into question their motives (Are they setting me up for a fall here?), you do have to ask yourself this: "Why should I listen to them? They're not me, so they don't know me. Since they don't know me, how can they know what's best for me?"

Heh. I guess I've got some Ferenghi in me.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Olivaise » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:39 am UTC

Post deleted by user.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby smallfried » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:59 am UTC

I smell revenge. And then a counter. And then romance. And then a collaboration. The ultimate duet!

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:12 am UTC

I wonder how much the writer looks at these postings before following up strips?

Retribution came much sooner than I thought it would.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Belial » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:27 am UTC

you do have to ask yourself this: "Why should I listen to them? They're not me, so they don't know me. Since they don't know me, how can they know what's best for me?"


You seem to be having issues with the line between "learning from other people" and "blindly obeying other people"
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Platypodes » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:17 am UTC

Kalos wrote:I really hope this "arc" comes to a twist ending, or our lovely classhole otherwise springs back from this one. He was the character who did all those things that we occasionally fantasized of doing ourselves but are prevented by pesky laws or a lack of engineering ability [...]

Not by conscience? Damn, that's one dismal view of human nature.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby pKp » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:23 am UTC

double entendre wrote:I don't know, maybe it's because of the general interpretations of the comics which may be the intended interpretations. For example, in "To Be Wanted", the general interpretation of the alt-text was that it was a meta-level, in which the "reader" or author hopes that there is a pirate girl hoping that the computer guy is thinking about her. If the reader identifies with the pirate girl instead of the (male) computer guy, then the alt-text "Or so I hope?" would not be at a meta-level. If the alt-text is supposed to be at a meta-level, then the comic would be androcentric (and heterosexual-centric).

Newsflash : The author of this comic is a heterosexual male person. It is a subjective view. Of course the comic is andocentric...

If he doesn't see her for a few more days, any details he will have picked up will almost certainly have been forgotten beyond a few vague things he drills into himself--"smooth shoulder-length brown hair" for example. A level of uncertainty would arise sufficient to the level that if she walked by him or sat down at the same restaurant with him, she'd be unlikely to ring any bells in his mind, and if he did happen to accuse her, a blank, politely surprised look would be enough to convince him that his memory is in error.


Anyway, neither of them has a mouth, nose, eyes or ears, so the hair is the only way they have to remember each other :mrgreen:
(and the Hat, of course).

I really hope that we'll see Journal 3 tomorrow, and not some random piece...I want to know what happens next ! *stamps foot*
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:27 am UTC

Dear lord, all y'all are taking this whole thing as being way too deep. Just sit back and enjoy the ride Randall has in store for us. Or the random gag he posts tonight. Whatev, peeps.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:35 am UTC

What are you, newer than me here?
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby zotquix » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:10 am UTC

I thought a lot about registering for the forums after reading Journal. I thought (as some others did) that it was a creative idea but not exactly something to celebrate. I thought about how frequently girls sometimes do what the classhole does in the strip (but then I suppose it does go both ways). It had such a romantic start, only to be dashed so tragically. It was exactly summed up in the conclusion, "This is why we can't have nice people."

Not that I get too bent out of shape about such things, but it moved me enough that I thought about registering where before I had only lurked. Still, I either didn't have the time or the will and that's probably how things would've stayed. Then today's gem came.

In the fanfic in my mind he chases after her and falls in love in some sort of Breakfast at Tiffanysesque finish. I love that she bested him, and had more fight in her than you would (or at least I would) expect. I'm not always a fan of story arcs, but this is great (even if it is just a two panel thing). Journal compelled people (possibly to an extent not anticipated) as evidenced by the passionate debating in the discussion thread, and the sequel did not disappoint. And, um, I just delurked to say so. It made me happy, and it was cute and romantic, and I wish I saw it happen in the real world. But then, I'm a sap like that.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby gamma-normids » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:34 am UTC

i don't understand how anyone could feel offended by Journal I. Personally, I wouldn't. At least our dear classhole is honest being himself. Many people actually carry a journal just to meet people. Anyway, back to the reality of the comic, when I saw Journal I, the first thing that came to my mind was the "lovely" story of the guy that saw a girl on the subway and then created a website to meet her again because he was so fascinated it by it. She had a flower on her hair, she had a journal, and so and so. They then appear on tv, became famous. Hungry for love or hungry for attention?

So, what's next? the de-hatted classhole will set up a website looking for his hat? which was stolen by the girl of his dreams? I (think I) hope so.

And yes, I registered because of "Journal". But I will keep posting around. English is not my first language, so be patient.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Blayze » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:09 am UTC

You seem to be having issues with the line between "learning from other people" and "blindly obeying other people"


I learn from the actions and mistakes of other people, not their words. From what they do, I learn what not to do and how people respond to situations. Words are cheap, but seeing someone get back-handed is educational (And amusing).
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby savage » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:12 am UTC

Blayze wrote:
You seem to be having issues with the line between "learning from other people" and "blindly obeying other people"


I learn from the actions and mistakes of other people, not their words. From what they do, I learn what not to do and how people respond to situations. Words are cheap, but seeing someone get back-handed is educational (And amusing).

:roll: <- there, it's an action. Learn.

In news completely unrelated to 11 year olds with internet access, DO WE HAVE A NAME? http://xkcd.com/177/ :mrgreen:
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby scarletmanuka » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:18 am UTC

savage wrote:DO WE HAVE A NAME? http://xkcd.com/177/ :mrgreen:

I don't think you can assume that there is only one woman in the xkcdverse with dark, shoulder-length hair. And since we don't have any other features by which to identify her...

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby savage » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:21 am UTC

scarletmanuka wrote:
savage wrote:DO WE HAVE A NAME? http://xkcd.com/177/ :mrgreen:

I don't think you can assume that there is only one woman in the xkcdverse with dark, shoulder-length hair. And since we don't have any other features by which to identify her...

clearly you're missing the big green grinning face there. Also you probably don't get the cryptography reference in strip 177. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_and_Bob

Also I was referring more to the attitude shown than the 'hur, black haired girl stick figure'.
The thing about revenge is, you have to do it right.

Death is quick, humiliation is forever.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Stanistani » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:59 am UTC

I would like to see Black Hat Woman become the new classhole.

Black Hat Man is hatless. It is the emblem of his power. All Hail Black Hat Woman! All shall love her and despair!

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Firnagzen » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:04 am UTC

uBHM and BHW have different classhole styles though, if this strip is anything to go by. BHW appears to use more headology, but uBHM uses gadgetry as part of that. So, well, I'm afraid I don't agree.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Antimatter Spork » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:31 pm UTC

Firnagzen wrote:uBHM and BHW have different classhole styles though, if this strip is anything to go by. BHW appears to use more headology, but uBHM uses gadgetry as part of that. So, well, I'm afraid I don't agree.

We've only seen BHW once, and BHM used plenty of headology himself. (Journal, "I'm less than zero", etc.)
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby blondie » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:11 pm UTC

EtzHadaat wrote:Dude it was River!


That's what I was going to say! I think it's the "you like to hurt people" line, coupled with the fact that I watched "Objects in Space" a couple of nights ago... Ok, it probably isn't actually River, but that would be pretty awesome.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby GiantSnowman » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:12 pm UTC

Wow, nice comic! Will the Black Hat Woman be the classhole from now on? Will Black Hat Man go live a hermit's life in Alaska? I can't wait to find out.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby feureau » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:33 pm UTC

cathrl wrote:Nope, not reading eight pages of discussion. I just popped in to say YAY! Way to slap down an arrogant prick!

(And now she's off to laugh about him with her friends :D )


And he'd be outside their window, listening in to them with his giant elliptical dish... Finally, in this whole wide world, there is a girl who understands me... And she wield it . . . only to diss 'em...
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stzein wrote:Now I have a möbius strip made of win and grease 8)

There is no other context of conversation possible in any language in which this sentance would make perfect sense.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby double entendre » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:40 am UTC

Blayze wrote:I have not once stated that I find the comic leaning towards "feminism" (I don't see how a movement that only seeks benefits for one half of the species can be one that seeks equality, but that's another topic entirely).

In general, it is a good idea to look up words that you are unfamiliar with before you use them.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby AySz88 » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:04 am UTC

Blayze wrote:
Girls don't exist for dating.
Geek girls don't exist for geek guys to date.


Which is why I hope he's unaffected ("I'll never see her again. How will I ever live? Oh, that's right. Careface."). After all, guys don't exist for dating either (And, despite what others may say, neither gender needs the other for anything other than procreation, and hopefully soon that will no longer be necessary for any of us), especially not Guy. The ability to break a person is insignificant next to being immune to being broken. If he's affected by her little show, then he wasn't worthy of the Hat in the first place.

"Growth" is overrated. It's just a case of other people complaining about you until you do what they want you to do.

I'm also willing to bet that many of those people who complained about "Journal 1" were aghast at the thought that he could even *think* about hurting women. I mean, emotionally hurting a woman is *so* much worse than getting a man killed by a truck, right?


<many many layers of quotes snipped>

While I agree that "growth" is bogus when meant as a person changing because others are talking behind their back saying "X should be 'mature' enough to do Y", "growth" as in change from one's own initiative is not - as people learn and gather conclusions about the world, their views and actions naturally get more depth. I'd find it a little odd if one can't explain their views to themselves before 15, and articulate them convincingly (at least, to like-minded people) before 20, so "growth" is not all bad. (Though, I don't really like the word "growth" to describe this, as it doesn't necessarily take the form of positive change - it can take the form of pigheadedness, or bigotry, since some views don't get built up from rational foundations, but down from ingrained conclusions. I do get the sense that these depth changes are called "growth" only when in line with peer pressure, so I see where "growth is overrated" might come from.)

Don't agree with the second part, though. (If you've read the original thread, you can skip this, since this is just a refactoring of stuff from that thread.) The complaining seems to be more due to just "but that's not funny!" than anything else, and that reaction taken for various reasons. I'm sure a couple of readers thought what you said, but they sure didn't post in the thread. A lot of the non-humor seems like it has to do with realism - it's funnier when it's unrealistic enough to be made fun of, and "nerd sniping" is obviously something that wouldn't happen in real life (...I hope...well, at least, there'd be a lot more police involved). But Journal hit closer to home, too real or too common for much of the audience to take it light-heartedly. Personally, it was mostly just empathy, how I'd feel if placed in that situation, and I had a twinge of "oh crap, people are going to try this IRL because there aren't consequences", too. I don't recall anyone invoking gender as a determining factor in their reaction (unless it was a meta-reaction over choosing the genders that way); I hypothesized that there'd be even more of an response if it were a girl doing it to a guy, as there's probably more [shy] guys here reading the comic than [shy] girls.
I really suggest you read the actual thread before posting incorrect assumptions about it.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby krynd » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:34 am UTC

Obligatory:
Girls don't exist for dating

What about your mom?
[/oblig.]

XilDarkz, thanks for the sigging. I didn't think about it until just now, how much that would sound like something I'd say to my girlfriend (especially in a crowded restaurant).
Spoiler:
If I had one...


Geek girls don't exist for geek guys to date

Wouldn't it be fun for geek-on-geek romance? The thrill of compiling code, tunnelling ports, and building Goldberg devices together? Isn't that far better than her dating the captain of the football team, even though he's just doing it to show his friends that he can sleep with anyone he wants?
What was that movie called?
[/joke]

PinkGothic wrote:
SomeonePGQuoted wrote:Something about abandoning gender identity


In our anonymous, Internet-centered world, is that so difficult to predict? With the exception of live video chat, it's next to impossible to tell if who you are talking to is male or female. For all you know, I'm Stephen Colbert (and this is The Colbert Report). Maybe I'm Richard Stallman (GNU FTW!). What about if I was Paris Hilton (look at me, I have money, and I supposedly found Jesus!)? How about Jessica Alba (a perennial favorite of the androcentric, heterosexual uber-nerd)?

What if I was your mom? Would you really want me reading everything you write?

Anyway, the point is, does it really matter anymore? I personally take the idea that I jokingly claim to have got from OOP (Object-Oriented Programming) (which is why it is worded strangely): We're all objects, created equal. Our properties/atributes may change depending on how methods are accessed, but we're fundamentally the same. For instance, with modern science, doctor's and psychologist's permission, and a lot of money, we could switch genders at will (well, every couple weeks, or however long the recovery time is). So, if today I'm female*, does that mean that by next month I could be male? What difference would it ultimately make? Still the same person, just a different look (sort of like switching between GNOME and KDE. Same OS, different GUI).

*
Spoiler:
Am I? I dunno. By some definitions I may be. Nerd-hair is funny like that... Does it matter? If I hack, does my physical appearance modify the code? Etc...

http://xkcd.com/322/
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby double entendre » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:41 am UTC

3.14159265... wrote:Randall was recently flogged with feminist emails.
Strike Reyhi wrote: Frankly I find this in bad taste, it seems as if he were flooded with bitchy emails and decided to write this to shut them up.

I doubt this. I'm a shy (and shy-looking) girl who rides the subway, and I'm also a feminist.

I didn't like Journal 1, but my reasons why are not what you think. I didn't like it because it was unrealistic enough that it didn't work as a comic. Shy girls don't work like that.

1. For a shy girl, getting a glare and eye-roll from some loner guy on the subway with a journal is weak sauce. Try getting an eye-roll from one of the popular girls, after which she laughs with her friends and they start whispering behind your back, shutting you out from the social "in-group", for x number of years throughout high school. Adolescent and teenage girls are way better at social alienation, as female social hierarchies in high school are based on headology. Boys fight to gain dominance, girls humiliate each other to gain dominance. For the shy girl, uBHM is not even a drop in the bucket.

2. Girls don't look for romance in public places. In fact, all shields are up. Especially if you're shy and vulnerable-looking, you are seen as easy prey for creeps on the subway and other public places. There are the creeps that sexually harass you, creeps that try to follow you home, and creeps that try to get to know you, asking things like, "What's your name?" Public places are open to the dregs of society, much like the internet. Stalker-type people tend to be males, and stalked people tend to be women. (Tip for hetero guys: Don't try to meet girls in public places. If you try to make contact, you'll come off as a creep, even if you consider yourself "normal" and are "just asking what [their] name is.") Shy Girl is probably not going to smile at a strange, loner-type guy on the subway, especially if the car is empty of witnesses. If she does, she's probably (1) laughing at him, or (2) thinking it's "cute" that he has a journal, in a patronizing way.

If Randall did get any angry emails, they're probably from guys who think that women are weak and psychologically weak and need to be protected.

Either way, I generally don't like uBHM. BHW is more realistic, as girls are better at playing mind games, as a general rule.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby double entendre » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:48 am UTC

krynd wrote:In our anonymous, Internet-centered world, is that so difficult to predict? With the exception of live video chat, it's next to impossible to tell if who you are talking to is male or female.

No. On the internet, people make the default assumption that you are male.

One can hide it by avoiding topics related to relationships, dating, and gender, but relationships and dating are pretty common topics.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby krynd » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:30 am UTC

What Interweb places do you go to? I've never participated in an online discussion about relationships/dating/etc. Unless you're IMming someone, talking in an IRC channel related to it, or bringing the topic up yourself, I don't see how often it could come up.

I never make assumptions about people. Sometimes, if they are ambiguous enough, and not paying close enough attention, I'll switch pronouns on them. It's fun, you should try it sometime (guaranteed to make you laugh at least once).

Also, what places would someone meet a person of the opposite (or same) gender? If you don't meet someone in public, where would you meet them? I find it highly unlikely that it would be possible to have met all your friends through a friend you've known since childhood (probably a kid your mommy set you up on a playdate or something when you were 2).

We all have to leave our safe zones for a while and talk to people. Suppose I'm standing in a queue, and would like to make casual conversation. Obviously I wouldn't start with a line, but something more like "Bit of a wait today". Would that be considered creepy? I don't think so, and neither would many of the people with whom I talk (obviously we're regulars at the same store). Maybe it's just your (presumably) terrible experiences (of which I don't want to know) that color your view. As someone said once, most people are nice, and aren't evil (or in this case creepy). It's entirely possible to talk to someone you don't know without being creepy, you just have to do it right, and it isn't all that hard either.

Sorry, but you offended me with that bit.
Spoiler:
Note to self: take own advice.

Also, society isn't here to solve our problems. Emotional abuse early on is bad, but honestly I find it a bit much that a pessimistic view should be the default because of a few (years) of bad experiences. I personally loathed high school, and was in a similar situation to the one de mentioned. However, I just accepted that they were shallow people, and moved on with my life. I'm far happier, and hope that one day, de may follow suit.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Antimatter Spork » Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:52 am UTC

double entendre wrote:No. On the internet, people make the default assumption that you are male.

Not everywhere. The internet is a big place. Some communities (especially those devoted to video games) assume males, others (like large parts of fandom) presume females. Really, I find it's best not to assume at all.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby double entendre » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:00 am UTC

krynd wrote:What Interweb places do you go to? I've never participated in an online discussion about relationships/dating/etc. Unless you're IMming someone, talking in an IRC channel related to it, or bringing the topic up yourself, I don't see how often it could come up.

Well, discussions about Journal 1 and Journal 2 involved discussing relationships. Usually, relationships/dating are not the main topic, but there are offhand comments or anecdotes about relationships.

For example, I used to be a digg'er, and digg has a healthy dose of misogynist comments, which are often dugg way up. These are often generalizations based on personal experiences with women or perhaps lack of.

Here is a recent example, although the title itself invites gender wars:

Second comment: "I feel so emasculated." +82 diggs -- The 82 people who dugg that comment were probably male, as you have to be male first to be emasculated.

"Yeah... And who found this information out?
Probably a Male.
HA.. Take that... You Females would be screwed without us :P" +133 diggs

"Women don't need us? Ya right. Without men around it would be chaos. Pickle jars everywhere would be unopenable, spider infestations would be rampant and completly unmanageable, and lets not even get started on working the DVD players!" +244 diggs

"I beg to differ. Who is going to kill all the spiders and drink all the beer?" +166 diggs

"Buried as innacurate, someone has to reach the top shelf, build the homes, move heavy things, and take out the garbage." +107 diggs

Yeeahhh... I don't think the digg gender ratio is 50/50.

krynd wrote:Also, what places would someone meet a person of the opposite (or same) gender? If you don't meet someone in public, where would you meet them? I find it highly unlikely that it would be possible to have met all your friends through a friend you've known since childhood (probably a kid your mommy set you up on a playdate or something when you were 2).

Well, I guess at a bar, a club, at school, or through friends. Bars and clubs are different because you actually go there to meet people, although some girls do go clubbing just to dance. Anyway, it's different from being approached in the subway or at the mall or on the street, because it's not so random (random -> suspicious).

krynd wrote:We all have to leave our safe zones for a while and talk to people. Suppose I'm standing in a queue, and would like to make casual conversation. Obviously I wouldn't start with a line, but something more like "Bit of a wait today". Would that be considered creepy? I don't think so, and neither would many of the people with whom I talk (obviously we're regulars at the same store). Maybe it's just your (presumably) terrible experiences (of which I don't want to know) that color your view. As someone said once, most people are nice, and aren't evil (or in this case creepy). It's entirely possible to talk to someone you don't know without being creepy, you just have to do it right, and it isn't all that hard either.

No, that's not creepy. "What's your name?" is creepy because it seems like they are trying to find information about you to stalk you/find out where you live.

krynd wrote:Sorry, but you offended me with that bit.
Spoiler:
Note to self: take own advice.

Also, society isn't here to solve our problems. Emotional abuse early on is bad, but honestly I find it a bit much that a pessimistic view should be the default because of a few (years) of bad experiences. I personally loathed high school, and was in a similar situation to the one de mentioned. However, I just accepted that they were shallow people, and moved on with my life. I'm far happier, and hope that one day, de may follow suit.

I'm a constructive pessimist; I tend to focus what's wrong with the world and believe that they can be fixed.

Anyway, I'm not bitter. I was just trying to make the point that uBHM overestimated his own classholeness.
Last edited by double entendre on Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:06 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby double entendre » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:05 am UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:
double entendre wrote:No. On the internet, people make the default assumption that you are male.

Not everywhere. The internet is a big place. Some communities (especially those devoted to video games) assume males, others (like large parts of fandom) presume females. Really, I find it's best not to assume at all.

Yes, you're right. I was making an over-generalization. There are sites I frequent that I assume female as the default.

I should have said that for most geeky areas of the internet, the default assumption is that you are male. This is changing slowly; hopefully, it'll change faster.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Gelsamel » Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:42 pm UTC

I hope he caught up with her and stole her away...
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Antimatter Spork » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:08 pm UTC

double entendre wrote:For example, I used to be a digg'er, and digg has a healthy dose of misogynist comments, which are often dugg way up. These are often generalizations based on personal experiences with women or perhaps lack of.

Here is a recent example, although the title itself invites gender wars:

Second comment: "I feel so emasculated." +82 diggs -- The 82 people who dugg that comment were probably male, as you have to be male first to be emasculated.

"Yeah... And who found this information out?
Probably a Male.
HA.. Take that... You Females would be screwed without us :P" +133 diggs

"Women don't need us? Ya right. Without men around it would be chaos. Pickle jars everywhere would be unopenable, spider infestations would be rampant and completly unmanageable, and lets not even get started on working the DVD players!" +244 diggs

"I beg to differ. Who is going to kill all the spiders and drink all the beer?" +166 diggs

"Buried as innacurate, someone has to reach the top shelf, build the homes, move heavy things, and take out the garbage." +107 diggs

Most of those quotes look at least somewhat satirical. While some of them (and some of the diggs) are probably misogynist, I'd say that a good portion of their "popularity" is firmly tongue-in-cheek.

double entendre wrote:
Antimatter Spork wrote:
double entendre wrote:No. On the internet, people make the default assumption that you are male.

Not everywhere. The internet is a big place. Some communities (especially those devoted to video games) assume males, others (like large parts of fandom) presume females. Really, I find it's best not to assume at all.

Yes, you're right. I was making an over-generalization. There are sites I frequent that I assume female as the default.

I should have said that for most geeky areas of the internet, the default assumption is that you are male. This is changing slowly; hopefully, it'll change faster.

I think f_w is plenty geeky, though certainly in a different way than XKCD. A lot of people here seem to operate from a much more constrictive definition of "geeky" than I do, so take my statements with a grain of salt.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby double entendre » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:55 pm UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:Most of those quotes look at least somewhat satirical. While some of them (and some of the diggs) are probably misogynist, I'd say that a good portion of their "popularity" is firmly tongue-in-cheek.

Of course they are tongue-in-cheek, but all the same, they are not original or creative or witty. They are rehashed, stale cliches that many digg'ers believe are a breath of fresh air against the backdrop of perceived misandry and out-of-control feminism of contemporary society.

Also, the original point was that in many cases, you can tell the gender ratio of a group of people on the internet, if not the individual's gender.

Antimatter Spork wrote:I think f_w is plenty geeky, though certainly in a different way than XKCD. A lot of people here seem to operate from a much more constrictive definition of "geeky" than I do, so take my statements with a grain of salt.

Okay, then I mean most sci/tech geeky areas of the internet.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby double entendre » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:07 pm UTC

pKp wrote:Newsflash : The author of this comic is a heterosexual male person. It is a subjective view. Of course the comic is andocentric...

But often it is not, which is refreshing. Examples: Angular Momentum, Mario, Penises, Blanket Fort.

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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Antimatter Spork » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:42 pm UTC

double entendre wrote:
Antimatter Spork wrote:Most of those quotes look at least somewhat satirical. While some of them (and some of the diggs) are probably misogynist, I'd say that a good portion of their "popularity" is firmly tongue-in-cheek.

Of course they are tongue-in-cheek, but all the same, they are not original or creative or witty. They are rehashed, stale cliches that many digg'ers believe are a breath of fresh air against the backdrop of perceived misandry and out-of-control feminism of contemporary society.

I never said commenters on Digg are smart. I would suspect that the opposite is true.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Belial » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:10 pm UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:I think f_w is plenty geeky, though certainly in a different way than XKCD.


It's funny that you're holding xkcd up as the more standard, male dominated end of the geek spectrum, because outside the wasteland that is "comic discussion", the gender ratio on these here fora is closer to even than most places I've been on the internet.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby Antimatter Spork » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:55 pm UTC

Belial wrote:It's funny that you're holding xkcd up as the more standard, male dominated end of the geek spectrum

No I'm not. I'm saying that XKCD-geeky is generally different from Fandom_Wank-geeky.

Edit for clarity: they're different in the types of things they're geeky about. I suspect the gender ratio is similar, with XKCD leaning towards being mostly male, and F_W leaning towards mostly female. But of course, I don't actually have any real demographics information, and since both communities are online and semi-anonymous, there's no real way to check.
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Re: "Journal 2" Discussion

Postby krynd » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:35 am UTC

We all see what we want to see, no matter what we're looking at.

For instance, de seems intent to denounce 90% of the Intertubez as misogynic. While that view is to be respected, I must disagree. As spork said, most of the comments were satirical. Even if they weren't, they don't represent any real mass of people. Semi-social networks like the standard news aggregates (Digg, /., Technorati, etc) and full social networks (MySpace, Flickr, Facebook, etc) don't represent society. They merely represent the loudest, most self-deluded, conniving, and often lonliest people in the world. Do you honestly think someone with adequate social skills would have 5000 friends on MySpace? What about the uber-nerd on /. who always knows the right thing to say?

Internet communication is flawed compared to face-to-face contact. Online, you can live in Malibu have near infinite time to search Wikipedia (if you're IMming someone, just say you were AFK for some reason). You can re-read your post dozens of times, practically guaranteeing that you will make a funny post without unduly offending someone. You can only be as wrong as you want to be. In the real world, you have one shot, no time-outs, and worse yet, you give off constant subtle cues as to your real meaning. If you take "too long" to answer a question online, it's called lag. In the real world: lying (or at least, suspicious).

It seems you tend to confuse a few loudmouths with public opinion. If I were to stand on my soapbox and scream "Emacs is better than Vi!", does that make it true? I'd have my share of people who agreed with me, and a few who'd pull out the old "that OS needs a text editor" routine. Still, it doesn't mean Emacs is the better text editor. It's simply better suited for some things that Vi isn't.

Spoiler:
Yes, that metaphor was intentional. An engineer once said that the male is an impressive feat of engineering, and therefore God must be a great engineer. In reply, some artist said "Yes, but woman is a work of art." So, is God an engineer or an artist?.

Also, the "better suited" deal points to physical characteristics. While it is possible for females to have upper-body strength comparable to a similarly-sized male, statistically speaking, males are stronger in that area. Likewise, females tend to be smarter (despite how our society conditions against that, especially with the weekly "Brittney Spears episode" we see on TV).

I do agree with you that change is needed, but I personally am about to give up on society. Personally, there are too many things I find offensive about society that I feel they can all be fixed. It isn't easy to undo centuries of programming in only a few decades (unless you're Microsoft, in which case you just release Human 2007, "With new Ribbon Interface - It's like nothing you've ever seen before").

Anyway, I digress. We see what we want to see, especially when we reason in binary.


Your digg reference did indeed point to the most satirical posts. Further, the topic at hand was one that would make many people threatened: The idea that you are essentially irrelevent, specifically by technology you helped create.

Imagine if one day you go to work, and your boss says, "Sorry, don't need you today. Some machine's doing it for you". So, you go home, but your partner decides s/he met someone at work who they "just love more than you". So you go to the pub, but the barkeep's been replaced with a self-serve. Throw some change in the machine, your mug under the nozzle, and press a button for what size you want. Then, you go to the doctor for your massive hangover, and he "upgrades" your eyes and ears for you (do you need them? Just get a machine to do it for you). Ad infinitum...

Ultimately, we can all be replaced, and it is that fear that some of the digg'ers were talking about. So, kindly forgive the men for their initial fright, you'd probably be scared too if someday you were found to be irrelevent (yes, I know I'm greatly exaggerating the article). Have you ever watched the movie "Fight Club"? It deals with the issue you bring up, in a rather interesting way too.

As far as the distinction between "creepy" and not, I'd say something as harmless as "What's your name?" is indeed harmless. You're not under any obligation to give a real name. Besides, knowing someone's name (real or not) brings a more personal level to the conversation. Yes, if they ask you it before a conversation has started, then fine, it is creepy. But if it happens later on, I don't see what's wrong with it.

Likewise when someone asks you for your number/IM, you don't have to give your real one out. I'm somewhat well known IRL for being very hesitant about giving out information (even my closest friends often don't know more about me than one of my disposable e-mail accounts). Therefore, what basis is your paranoia, well... based? Not everyone is out to stalk you, just that creepy kid from next door who keeps walking past your window and staring. Staring with his beady little eyes, until he decides one day to break into your house, put cameras throughout it, and watch you 24/7. The only protection is a mass signal disruptor. Quick, to the EMP generator!
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