0378: "Real Programmers"

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Tyris and Cortle
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby Tyris and Cortle » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:23 pm UTC

Ah, how happy we are to not be real programmers.
Not even fake programmers, in fact.
Real engineers let a programmer do their programming. Or something. A real engineer would probably disagree with us. :lol:
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rrwoods
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby rrwoods » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:25 pm UTC

Notch wrote:
Triggerhappy938 wrote:So what do fake programmers use?


I use eclipse, thanks for asking. =)

Seconded.
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby GMontag » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:32 pm UTC

Triggerhappy938 wrote:So what do fake programmers use?


The antonym of "real programmer" is not "fake programmer", it's "quiche eater". And, as everybody knows, quiche eaters use Pascal.

woktiny
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby woktiny » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:40 pm UTC

Azzaman wrote:The alt-text (title, whatever) made me think of HHGTTG for some reason...

It's because of the discovery that revolutionized manufacturing in the galaxy... that everything we could produce already occurs naturally somewhere, like mattresses:

HHGTTG wrote:Arthur prodded the mattress nervously and then sat on it himself: in fact he had very little to be nervous about, because all mattresses grown in the swamps of Squornshellous Zeta are very thoroughly killed and dried before being put to service. Very few have ever come to life again.


Also, I miss real programming... it seems like everything now-a-days is some high level language that controls some framework that runs in some VM... where's the metal?

pnevma
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby pnevma » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:01 pm UTC

gormster wrote:REAL, ACTUAL PROGRAMMERS USE IDES BECAUSE THAT BIZARRE COMMAND LINE BULLSHIT TAKES WAY TOO MUCH TIME AND YOU GET FIRED

thank you


I'd like to you see you use your "fancy" ide faster than my prof can use vim... and he used emacs until a year ago.

OR...

You could just learn how to use a functional programming language and spend half the time anyway.

I've never liked IDE's, they always try to "help me" and they just piss me off.
"The computer is meant to do work for you, not you for the computer. If you find yourself doing something repetitive for the computer, you are doing something wrong; stop what you're doing, a learn how to do it right."
The "Command line bullshit" allows you to decide what's repetitive and needs speeding up. You can do anything an IDE can do at least as fast in in vim or emacs, and you can through in a few hacks to make it bow to your will.

*
Edit: almost forgot, the one handy thing is seeing a list of files for your project, but if you're not an idiot, you let the computer do your finding for you anyway.
*
Also:
Eschatokyrios wrote:but it's not like :wq [in vi] Alt+A N [screen] (load "file.scm") [scheme interpreter] is that much more difficult.
. Why the q? just :w do when you screen back, you have a file waiting for you!
Last edited by pnevma on Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:04 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby tgape » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:03 pm UTC

Flewellyn wrote:There's nothing I hate more during geekfests than a programming dicksize war.

Real programmers use whatever tools are most useful and convenient for solving the problem!

(Except Java. Real programmers do not use Java.)


Seconded. Especially those of us who are allergic to coffee in all of its forms.

Unless, of course, they're told by their boss, "I need you to help these guys out with this Java program they're working on. They can't figure out what their obstacle is, and I'm hoping you can figure it out. Oh, and their problem isn't that they've chosen to write their code in Java." Ugh.

(Technically, it turned out their problem wasn't actually that they wrote it in Java, but rather they couldn't format code properly to save their lives, but they tried, and managed to confuse themselves greatly as a result. Oh, and they were the sort who get confused and think that if you know 'if a then b', and you know 'b', then 'a'. That is, they really weren't programmers, merely cabbages disguised as programmers. Oddly enough, eventually the Java program worked - and run-time performance wasn't that bad, either.)

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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby xquared » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:24 pm UTC

the alt-text reminded me of sirens of titan by vonnegut
X_x² ... ò_Ô

yitzle
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby yitzle » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:51 pm UTC

gormster wrote:REAL, ACTUAL PROGRAMMERS USE IDES BECAUSE THAT BIZARRE COMMAND LINE BULLSHIT TAKES WAY TOO MUCH TIME AND YOU GET FIRED

thank you

Hm. This might well be worth your time.
aerojad wrote:
Triggerhappy938 wrote:So what do fake programmers use?

visual basic

That makes sense. I've heard VB wasn't designed as a programming but as a modeling language.
Tyris and Cortle wrote:Ah, how happy we are to not be real programmers.
Not even fake programmers, in fact.
Real engineers let a programmer do their programming. Or something. A real engineer would probably disagree with us. :lol:

I'm a third year engineering student. Is that enought to disagree?

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redthegreat
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby redthegreat » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:05 pm UTC

lazarus89 wrote:
aerojad wrote:I use Kate.

...the text editor.


I use Kate.

... the woman.

I write code on her boobs with a sharpie; she then transcibes this code (with auto -completion and -correction) to the terminal. A simple voice command ("compile <project>") results in compilation and execution of the project.

I find this to be a more effective stimulating paradigm than regular direct interaction with the computer.


You write code on boobs? Boobs are binary mate, go a row of woman and arrange them into which ones turn you on and which turn you off, thats what real programmers do
Please don't correct my spelling, I am lisdexic and know it is probably wrong.

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Triggerhappy938
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:39 pm UTC

This has turned out to be the most educational thing I've seen on the internet it some time.
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genewitch
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby genewitch » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:43 pm UTC

I like this one a lot. Last week i was annoyed because neither IPCop nor the default install of ubuntu come with emacs, and my laptop can't use VI, because it has no Q key. :-(

I like it, though. my friend always says "you use your silly IDE, i'll stick with notepad" :-)
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Kleppner
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby Kleppner » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:47 pm UTC

Jesus this is spooky, we just learned about Unix and LaTeX in school a month ago.
Oh emacs. <3

Kalos
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby Kalos » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:52 pm UTC

redthegreat wrote:Boobs are binary mate, go a row of woman and arrange them into which ones turn you on and which turn you off, thats what real programmers do

Real programmers don't have the social skills to get that many attractive women in one rom.

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DeadCatX2
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby DeadCatX2 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:11 pm UTC

Professional programmers (aka Software Engineers) use graphical IDEs with auto-completion, multi-threaded debuggers, and built-in source control. Oh, and they use other people's code; it's always linked against libraries.


woktiny wrote:Also, I miss real programming... it seems like everything now-a-days is some high level language that controls some framework that runs in some VM... where's the metal?

C? Assembly? Machine code? Ha! Screw metal...take me all the way down to the glass.

REAL programmers use VHDL or Verilog. They design Mealy-Moore Finite State Machines to control datapath logic. There is no opcode. There is no instruction pointer. There is no stack. There are only flip flops and gates. Digital Design FTW!


Kalos wrote:
redthegreat wrote:Boobs are binary mate, go a row of woman and arrange them into which ones turn you on and which turn you off, thats what real programmers do

Real programmers don't have the social skills to get that many attractive women in one rom.

That's okay, most bits are 0 anyway. And (at least for me) I could use males in place of unattractive females; they both turn me off.

yitzle
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby yitzle » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:19 pm UTC

DeadCatX2 wrote:
woktiny wrote:Also, I miss real programming... it seems like everything now-a-days is some high level language that controls some framework that runs in some VM... where's the metal?

C? Assembly? Machine code? Ha! Screw metal...take me all the way down to the glass.

REAL programmers use VHDL or Verilog. They design Mealy-Moore Finite State Machines to control datapath logic. There is no opcode. There is no instruction pointer. There is no stack. There are only flip flops and gates. Digital Design FTW!

Two thumbs up for Verilog! While the multiplier array I wrote last night was a pain, the results of a HDL design project can be so rewarding! Though that's not software engineering...

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DeadCatX2
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby DeadCatX2 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:32 pm UTC

yitzle wrote:While the multiplier array I wrote last night was a pain, the results of a HDL design project can be so rewarding!

Ugh, multiplier arrays. It's a pain to remember where the half-adders go. Partial sums are made of lose, fail, and defeat.

Xilinx ISE supports inferring multipliers through the use of *, much like it can infer adders and subtracters with + and -. To boot, a lot of more recent FPGA architectures also sport embedded multipliers. A signed 18x18 in a single cycle, baby! Makes doing DSP stuff a cinch, and you can use it for all kinds of neat tricks if you don't use all of the multipliers (absolute value and shift register, for example)
Last edited by DeadCatX2 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Nyarlathotep
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:33 pm UTC

Real programmers write in D'ni. :o
'Gehȳrst þū, sǣlida, hwæt þis folc segeð?
hī willað ēow tō gafole gāras syllan,
ǣttrynne ord and ealde swurd,
þā heregeatu þe ēow æt hilde ne dēah.

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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby dskippy » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:34 pm UTC

Real programmers find the program then need in consecutive digits of Pi.

-skippy

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nynexman4464
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby nynexman4464 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:42 pm UTC

What about TECO? Not only is TECO turing complete, but Emacs was originally written in TECO, clearly making it The One True Text Editor.

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TheDisreputableDog
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby TheDisreputableDog » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

I would buy a shirt that said "Real programmers use butterflies."

(For the record I use Smultron, Cyberduck, and Terminal in succession, because emacs on Apple and Windows doesn't have a freaking scroll bar.)

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pinkgothic
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Re: Four Yorkshiremen Discussion

Postby pinkgothic » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:10 pm UTC

muteKi wrote:Damn butterflies, I swear, those have to be the creepiest animal in existence.


Of course they are! Has no one ever told you they're packhunting carnivores?! They're like little miniature raptors with wings. Except in the case of butterflies, you can deal with one, or even with a small pack, but you are generous amounts of pwned if you encounter a swarm.

A bit like piranhas.

...

Trust me, I know. :shock:

Nyarlathotep wrote:Real programmers write in D'ni. :o


Haha! What would 'programmer' be in D'ni, anyway... ooshahehts rovtee?

...

Okay, that was bad. I apologise. :P
Note to self: don't approach D'ni without Rehchoortahn's help.
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby zahlman » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:32 pm UTC

Eschatokyrios wrote:I kind of miss vi's h-j-k-l in emacs, though.


Why on earth would you use hjkl to navigate around when there are arrow keys on your keyboard? vi was originally built to allow for maximum compatibility with a variety of rather strange, early keyboard designs. Now those kinds of things are only there for backwards compatibility.

Anyway. Anyone else think that just the last guy in the last panel, with the line and "Dammit, Emacs." comment, would make a great T-shirt?
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby LarrySDonald » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:44 pm UTC

I use hjkl because they are right there (ok ok, one key over) in touch-type position rather then having to fling my hand over to the arrow keys. There's always the option of not doing so, but I never do.

As implied, I use vi or appropriate clone (most often vim). I tried emacs, intentionally using it and it only for a month, but it didn't quite do it for me. I often end up having to use the visual studio IDE though, just because that's what I'm often expected to deliver files in and I don't bother going in and out battling the interface to get to use vi. I miss it when I do and duck out to cygwin to edit stuff and think sometimes when I need to free up more brain then used to wrestle the IDE. I would be even more positive toward a vi-like IDE though, I'm no masochist and will cheerfully use IDEs especially for things like layout - I just don't like their idea of what a good text editor is (usually very close to notepad). I've wondered sometimes about some type of "standard windows"->vi interface plugin, but it's beyond my skill level.

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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby purplepolecat » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:58 pm UTC

I was going to edit a file
But then I got vi
I was sure that it would compile
But then I got vi
Now my code is all messed up, and I know why
It's cause I got vi, cause I got vi, cause I got vi

PHaze
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby PHaze » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:03 pm UTC

The end of this comic and especially the alt text remind me of the "Universal Will To Become" from the Kurt Vonnegut novel Sirens of Titan.

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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby eolanys » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:06 pm UTC

Post deleted.
Last edited by eolanys on Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:23 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

RaptorAttack
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby RaptorAttack » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:08 pm UTC

I use Bluefish. It's got pretty colors, and I don't have to open up the nasty Ubuntu command prompt and type arcane commands like "nano" or "emacs".

I remember when I had to restore a backed up X11 config file using the command line after failing to enable a third mouse button and killing my mouse functionality. Screwing up mouse configuration makes your mouse stop responding... go figure! *Shudder* I still have the night terrors from that...

So, yeah, clearly I am as hardcore as programmers get.

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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby DeadCatX2 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:31 pm UTC

purplepolecat wrote:I was going to edit a file
But then I got vi
I was sure that it would compile
But then I got vi
Now my code is all messed up, and I know why
It's cause I got vi, cause I got vi, cause I got vi

Oh. My. God. That is made of liquid Win, now featuring Success and Victory.

tmallen
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby tmallen » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:38 pm UTC

Real programmers are using TextMate :^)

Seriously, look at most screencasts (even non-Rails ones) or programming tutorials from seasoned programmers, and a sizable chunk use TextMate. Reason? Macs are a usable Unix system, and TextMate's the best editor for the Mac. The only thing that I miss from Vim is the great navigation, but the code-completion abilities and Unix integration of TextMate make it a dream to program in.

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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby treblemaker » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:09 pm UTC

DeadCatX2 wrote:REAL programmers use VHDL or Verilog.

And fake programmers use a Silicone Compiler.

larsh
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby larsh » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:19 pm UTC

Real programmers set the universal constants at the start such that the universe evolves to contain the disk with the data they want.
Response 1: So, you're an intelligent design theorist after all. I knew you'd come around.

Response 2: What does the debugging process look like? Are we in a debug run right now, or is this the real thing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestor_simulation
(Yeah I know, real programmers don't have to debug.)

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muteKi
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby muteKi » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:50 pm UTC

When I did any programming, I used frhed.
Image

Larklight
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby Larklight » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:08 pm UTC

Real programers don't use the word 'program'. They simply do.

anthroid
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby anthroid » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:14 pm UTC

God is the only real programmer


god is a thread spawned from a program written by a Real Programmer.

outlier
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby outlier » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:15 pm UTC

Is it possibles that I picked up on a reference that everyone else missed?

From Neal Stephenson's "In the Beginning was the Command Line"

I think that the message is very clear here: somewhere outside of and beyond our universe is an operating system, coded up over incalculable spans of time by some kind of hacker-demiurge. The cosmic operating system uses a command-line interface. It runs on something like a teletype, with lots of noise and heat; punched-out bits flutter down into its hopper like drifting stars. The demiurge sits at his teletype, pounding out one command line after another, specifying the values of fundamental constants of physics:

universe -G 6.672e-11 -e 1.602e-19 -h 6.626e-34 -protonmass 1.673e-27....

and when he's finished typing out the command line, his right pinky hesitates above the ENTER key for an aeon or two, wondering what's going to happen; then down it comes--and the WHACK you hear is another Big Bang.

Now THAT is a cool operating system, and if such a thing were actually made available on the Internet (for free, of course) every hacker in the world would download it right away and then stay up all night long messing with it, spitting out universes right and left. Most of them would be pretty dull universes but some of them would be simply amazing. Because what those hackers would be aiming for would be much more ambitious than a universe that had a few stars and galaxies in it. Any run-of-the-mill hacker would be able to do that. No, the way to gain a towering reputation on the Internet would be to get so good at twerking your command line that your universes would spontaneously develop life. And once the way to do that became common knowledge, those hackers would move on, trying to make their universes develop the right kind of life, trying to find the one change in the Nth decimal place of some physical constant that would give us an Earth in which, say, Hitler had been accepted into art school after all, and had ended up his days as a street artist with cranky political opinions.

This is a piece of the "Right Pinky of God" chapter at the very end of the book.

yitzle
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby yitzle » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:21 pm UTC

RaptorAttack wrote:I use Bluefish. It's got pretty colors, and I don't have to open up the nasty Ubuntu command prompt and type arcane commands like "nano" or "emacs".

I remember when I had to restore a backed up X11 config file using the command line after failing to enable a third mouse button and killing my mouse functionality. Screwing up mouse configuration makes your mouse stop responding... go figure! *Shudder* I still have the night terrors from that...

So, yeah, clearly I am as hardcore as programmers get.

lol
Ctrl-F2 lets you execute commands as if from a terminal with a nice GUI!

fonik
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby fonik » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:54 pm UTC

scowdich wrote:54 posts of discussion, and nobody has pointed out that you can't edit code with cat?

For shame!

Sure ya can!

Code: Select all

cat `tty` > ./file.c

The `tty` command returns your current /dev/tty* device. Real programmers write every line perfectly and never have to delete or change anything. :o

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Syphon
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby Syphon » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Rea; programming forge their own platters in a kiln specifically designed to preformat the platter with the proper data.

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Jorpho
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Re: "Real Programmers" Discussion

Postby Jorpho » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:30 am UTC

I'm also reminded of this tidbit, actually.
"BTW, here's a real-life anecdote for your old-school collection. I don't know if you ever met Karl Dahlke, but he's a blind programmer with whom I worked at Rush. He ported his drivers for the Votrax voice synthesizer to Coherent -- it's a beautiful system. Anyway, he originally wrote his original voice-synthesizer driver on the Apple II. Now, you ask yourself, how did write the voice synthesizer if the voice synthesizer did not yet exist to tell him what was on the screen? The answer is that he kept the entire driver in his head, and wrote, assembled, and installed it blindly -- the only feedback he had from the machine was the bell. Now THAT'S old school!"

-From http://www.oldskool.org/tales/

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The Hyphenator
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Re: Real Programmers Discussion

Postby The Hyphenator » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:56 am UTC

littlebee wrote:Am I the only person who was reminded of the Terry Pratchett book "Interesting times" from this and thought of that before the programming?

Crap... I didn't think of that. And I call myself a Discworld fan? But hey, I bet no-one else thought of Witches Abroad (the scene where Granny Weatherwax loses her hat to a crocodile at Mrs. Gogol's place) when they read Journal 2.

Anyway, this was a pretty funny comic, although frankly I was hoping for Journal 3, where formerly-Black-Hat Man would do something cool to get his hat back.
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