0513: "Friends"

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Plasma Man
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Plasma Man » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:00 pm UTC

Read the comic. First reaction: Ouch

Been there, done that, lost good friends through it.

Sadly, my current plan for meeting someone involves skipping the first part and just going straight to "In a moment of weakness and loneliness you give in" :( *sigh*
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:04 pm UTC

Diskobolos wrote:Registered just to reply to this one. It bothered me a lot, so this'll be LONG.


I refer you to my Nice Guy Plan earlier:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Go have sex with multiple girls more attractive than she is
5. Ask her out again
6. She says yes!
7. Profit!

Doesn't fit your situation perfectly, but the fact that you got step 4 down means you're not really a "Nice Guy(tm)".

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Diskobolos » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:10 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
Diskobolos wrote:Registered just to reply to this one. It bothered me a lot, so this'll be LONG.


I refer you to my Nice Guy Plan earlier:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Go have sex with multiple girls more attractive than she is
5. Ask her out again
6. She says yes!
7. Profit!

Doesn't fit your situation perfectly, but the fact that you got step 4 down means you're not really a "Nice Guy(tm)".


Heh, pretty good. Though I never did step 4 to hurt her or make her jealous, I was just keeping options on my table. Doesn't make me any less of a nice guy to be on speaking/friendship/dating terms with more than one person at a time, as long as everything's on the up-and-up.
So many guys zero in on one girl and think she's the end-all-be-all -- you can't possibly know that unless you've ALREADY been dating for a good long time, and statistically speaking, not even then.

(Also, Step 6.5: ???)

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby suzi » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:17 pm UTC

I'm afraid I have a friend who's waiting to do this to me :O /scared

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mikbeth » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:18 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:The next comic should be from the perspective of the jerk.

"Hey, I want to fuck you."
"Ok."
"Sweet."


Why do we refer to the other guy as the "jerk" is it a defense mechanism? So we don't have to face the fact that maybe they're a better choice for the girl? Or we don't want to face the imperfections in the girl we're attracted to? we're all horrendously imperfect, maybe her horrendous imperfection is compatible with his, and we just don't want to self-analyze our own horrendous imperfections.

Another comment I might add has to do with sexual liberation. An earlier poster commented:

"Ohh, I'm vibrating," and after checking the message she looks at me and kind of winks saying, "But I don't need a vibrator, I've got a boyfriend." Granted I'm sure she's as innocent as the day is long, but it's the naughtyness behind it that's what makes it so appealing.

Why do you assume she's as innocent as the day is long? Why would you care? Women are just as sexual as men and have their own sexual needs. Maybe as the nice guy you're projecting an inability to fulfill those sexual needs(i.e. I would never proposition a woman sexually so early on, etc.), or maybe the woman doesn't want to be with someone who sees her as a "perfect little angel who can never screw up nor take pleasure in sex." I hate to be blunt, but as the nice guy interested in "some girl" whoever she is, you're obviously not what she really wants or needs. Some people need someone who's going to stand up to them. If she's a strong woman, she doesn't want a pushover, because where's the room for her to grow? Where's the room for her to grow if she's not allowed to make her own mistakes and observe someone who she sees as strong, making their own mistakes and their own successes. Maybe she's in a place in her life, where she's still learning and there's something in this guy that reflects a part of her personality she's looking to grow, even if it's subconcious or even if he's not "the one"

Further more, this "nice girls dating jerks" thing is not limited to women. I know several girls who are into me right now who are very sweet, but I just couldn't do it, whether it's because I don't feel they challenge me or because I want someone who shares my neuroses, I don't know. I think what it comes down to is that I'm _going_ to fuck up in the relationship, and so will this girl you idealize. And I don't want to be with someone who I don't think can handle that.

Either way, I think the real question is to try to look at the woman you're interested in holistically, are you really the guy for her. Do you see her as a real person with faults and weaknesses, insecurities strengths and desires, who may in fact need someone who is more than just "there for them" or do you idealize her to a standard she can't hope to live up to.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:24 pm UTC

mikbeth wrote:Why do we refer to the other guy as the "jerk" is it a defense mechanism? So we don't have to face the fact that maybe they're a better choice for the girl? Or we don't want to face the imperfections in the girl we're attracted to? we're all horrendously imperfect, maybe her horrendous imperfection is compatible with his, and we just don't want to self-analyze our own horrendous imperfections.

Another comment I might add has to do with sexual liberation. An earlier poster commented:

"Ohh, I'm vibrating," and after checking the message she looks at me and kind of winks saying, "But I don't need a vibrator, I've got a boyfriend." Granted I'm sure she's as innocent as the day is long, but it's the naughtyness behind it that's what makes it so appealing.

Why do you assume she's as innocent as the day is long? Why would you care? Women are just as sexual as men and have their own sexual needs. Maybe as the nice guy you're projecting an inability to fulfill those sexual needs(i.e. I would never proposition a woman sexually so early on, etc.), or maybe the woman doesn't want to be with someone who sees her as a "perfect little angel who can never screw up nor take pleasure in sex." I hate to be blunt, but as the nice guy interested in "some girl" whoever she is, you're obviously not what she really wants or needs. Some people need someone who's going to stand up to them. If she's a strong woman, she doesn't want a pushover, because where's the room for her to grow? Where's the room for her to grow if she's not allowed to make her own mistakes and observe someone who she sees as strong, making their own mistakes and their own successes. Maybe she's in a place in her life, where she's still learning and there's something in this guy that reflects a part of her personality she's looking to grow, even if it's subconcious or even if he's not "the one"

Further more, this "nice girls dating jerks" thing is not limited to women. I know several girls who are into me right now who are very sweet, but I just couldn't do it, whether it's because I don't feel they challenge me or because I want someone who shares my neuroses, I don't know. Either way, I think the real question is to try to look at the woman you're interested in holistically, are you really the guy for her. Do you see her as a real person with faults and weaknesses, insecurities strengths and desires, who may in fact need someone who is more than just "there for them" or do you idealize her to a standard she can't hope to live up to.


*makes that noise Peter makes on Family Guy when Buzz Killington speaks*

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Flewellyn » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:26 pm UTC

One thing I have to wonder at, is the number of (presumably) men here who are saying "Oh, this is so me!", and not realizing that the comic is not on their side.

Seriously. The comic is saying this is a bad thing to do. Bad thing! No do!

Sheesh.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:27 pm UTC

Flewellyn wrote:One thing I have to wonder at, is the number of (presumably) men here who are saying "Oh, this is so me!", and not realizing that the comic is not on their side.

Seriously. The comic is saying this is a bad thing to do. Bad thing! No do!

Sheesh.


SHHHHH!!! We want them to keep doing what they're doing!

Say it with me: Keep doing what you're doing! Next time it'll be different! Hang in there Nice Guys!

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mikbeth » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:28 pm UTC

*makes that noise Peter makes on Family Guy when Buzz Killington speaks*[/quote]

l-o-l! why am I a buzzkill?

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby radtea » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:32 pm UTC

There's a flip-side to this: I've dated women who were convinced all the previous guys they were with were jerks, and I figured, "Hey, no problem, I'm not a jerk, so no big deal." The thing I rapidly learned is that women who date jerks do so because they are incapable of distinguishing a jerk from a decent guy. They date jerks because they expect everyone to act badly, all the time, so jerks look like normal people to them.

But when they are dating a decent guy they are STILL incapable of distinguishing a jerk from a decent guy. They expect decent guys to act like jerks, and tend to interpret the most innocent action as having ulterior motives.

As soon as I stopped dating women who had a self-described history of jerky boyfriends I suddenly found myself keeping company with women who appreciate my sterling qualities.

Moral of the story: dating is like sales. You should "always be qualifying"--asking if this person is the right one for you, and ready to drop them sooner rather than later, knowing that there's always another one in the queue. You still have to have a reasonable standard of "good enough", but if a woman can't figure out you aren't a jerk, there's no way she meets it.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Rinsaikeru » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:35 pm UTC

The number is astonishing Flewellyn--they honestly don't realize that the 'nice guy' in this comic is not someone to emulate, aspire to be, comiserate with or even pity. This 'nice guy' is an absolute manipulator that then blames his target for his own failings.

What many fail to see is that this is not a guy who makes friends with someone and then becomes romantically involved. This guy is NEVER HER FRIEND because he's always trying to manipulate her emotions such that he can profit from the situation. There are as many female manipulators as there are men--so I won't make any claims that this is just guys--but I've had to deal with lots of whining tripe from guys about this sort of thing.

I'm sick of it. Her boyfriend may or may not be a jerk--if you try to use his failings to get her into bed...you ARE a jerk.

There are plenty of women who like guys who are kind, honest, and shy. I'm one of them. I don't like guys who claim they are nice but prove the opposite by trying to ingratiate me to them when I'm feeling down.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:36 pm UTC

mikbeth wrote:l-o-l! why am I a buzzkill?


Maybe there are people who need to hear it, but to the ears of someone for whom this is blindingly obvious, the long-winded treatment of the subject is kind of a buzzkill.
Last edited by FireZs on Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Susy » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:37 pm UTC

Plasma Man wrote:Read the comic. First reaction: Ouch

Been there, done that, lost good friends through it.

Sadly, my current plan for meeting someone involves skipping the first part and just going straight to "In a moment of weakness and loneliness you give in" :( *sigh*


You know, actually I am not sure this is the right approach to take. Being a girl, I have done that, go straight to the bussines: I like you, you like me, no promises. And still!!!! I get rejected!!! How crazy is that, eh?!! Ain´t men supposed to follow the saying: "why buy the cow if I can get the milk for free"

My theory, is that I am attracted to gay guys... :( kinda of a curse or something.
Last edited by Susy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:39 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:37 pm UTC

Flewellyn wrote:One thing I have to wonder at, is the number of (presumably) men here who are saying "Oh, this is so me!", and not realizing that the comic is not on their side.

Seriously. The comic is saying this is a bad thing to do. Bad thing! No do!

Sheesh.


It also shows that we're(since im one of them) too in love to do what the beginning of the comic suggests and let them turn you down; and it also has the "Nice Guy" or "Jerk" or "Creep" win in the end, regardless of which is a better thing to do

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Re: Friends Discussion

Postby BingsF » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:38 pm UTC

masamune55 wrote:I took this approach. It took me 6 months to get with the girl I now love. <3


Congratulations.

I'm rounding on 6.5 years of this approach. For one girl. So far unsuccessful, but hey... there's always tomorrow? Were I anyone else, I'd slap me in the teeth and tell me to move on. Good to know I'm as hypocritical as anyone else.

Sigh.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby The_Beige_Volvo » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:42 pm UTC

Susy wrote:
Plasma Man wrote:Read the comic. First reaction: Ouch

Been there, done that, lost good friends through it.

Sadly, my current plan for meeting someone involves skipping the first part and just going straight to "In a moment of weakness and loneliness you give in" :( *sigh*


You know, actually I am not sure this is the right approach to take. Being a girl, I have done that, go straight to the bussines: I like you, you like me, no promises. And still!!!! I get rejected!!! How crazy is that, eh?!! Ain´t men supposed to follow the saying: "why buy the cow if I can get the milk for free"

My theory, is that I am attracted to gay guys... :( kinda of a curse or something.


...or you just go for guys like me who have more of the attitude of: "I'd really like a nice cow to fall in love with and casual milk drinking just doesn't give me the intimacy that I want."

Ahem.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:43 pm UTC

Susy wrote:You know, actually I am not sure this is the right approach to take. Being a girl, I have done that, go straight to the bussines: I like you, you like me, no promises. And still!!!! I get rejected!!! How crazy is that, eh?!! Ain´t men supposed to follow the saying: "why buy the cow if I can get the milk for free"

My theory, is that I am attracted to gay guys... :( kinda of a curse or something.


You sound fat.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Ari » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:45 pm UTC

Flewellyn wrote:One thing I have to wonder at, is the number of (presumably) men here who are saying "Oh, this is so me!", and not realizing that the comic is not on their side.

Seriously. The comic is saying this is a bad thing to do. Bad thing! No do!

Sheesh.


Indeed, I found this kinda disturbing and was struggling to find a way to say it without personal abuse. Mostly because I know how bad a mistake this sort of thing is. HUGE MISTAKE. Manipulating people and using their personal tragedies to make you feel better is bad, okay? Thankyou.
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Re: Friends Discussion

Postby endolith » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:51 pm UTC

dennisw wrote:I calculate that [imath]e[/imath] months is approximately 82 days, 16 hours and 20 minutes. Sounds like she's a little slow on the uptake.


http://www.google.com/search?q=e+months

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:52 pm UTC

Indeed, I found this kinda disturbing and was struggling to find a way to say it without personal abuse. Mostly because I know how bad a mistake this sort of thing is. HUGE MISTAKE. Manipulating people and using their personal tragedies to make you feel better is bad, okay? Thankyou.


worse is when u dont comfort ppl to make them feel better, which in turn makes you happier, and they think that u are using it to enjoying hugging them

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:53 pm UTC

Indeed, I found this kinda disturbing and was struggling to find a way to say it without personal abuse. Mostly because I know how bad a mistake this sort of thing is. HUGE MISTAKE. Manipulating people and using their personal tragedies to make you feel better is bad, okay? Thankyou.


worse is when u dont comfort ppl to make them feel better, which in turn makes you happier, and they think that u are using it to enjoying hugging them

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:55 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:
pacific14586 wrote:1. Loneliness is spelled lonliness in the comic.

2. I hate when humor is mixed into an otherwise insightful comic. I've taken the liberty of making today's xkcd more real, more beautiful. http://www.isowantone.com/xkcd.jpg

What? No way! The whole point of the comic is what a hypocritical, cynical, disingenuous loser this woman's "friend" is. His vision of what will happen with her "giving in" to him is not supposed to be realistic, and ending the comic that way implies his vision is what happens. Instead, we end the comic with the woman rejecting his view of reality, which gives him another chance to display his hypocrisy.


Exactly! Finally someone who gets it.

I can't believe the number of people here who are identifying with the main character in this strip, or we think the strip is somehow romantic.

The guy is a selfish jerk. He doesn't care about her happiness, but only about his own fantasy. That's why the last panel is so good. He claims "But he doesn't respect you", but of course he himself is the one who doesn't repect her. If you respect a girl, you're honest about your feelings.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FemaleEngineer » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:57 pm UTC

Bartimaeus wrote:
Flewellyn wrote:One thing I have to wonder at, is the number of (presumably) men here who are saying "Oh, this is so me!", and not realizing that the comic is not on their side.

Seriously. The comic is saying this is a bad thing to do. Bad thing! No do!

Sheesh.


It also shows that we're(since im one of them) too in love to do what the beginning of the comic suggests and let them turn you down; and it also has the "Nice Guy" or "Jerk" or "Creep" win in the end, regardless of which is a better thing to do


I feel like this is a total cop-out. If you're really the guy in the comic--pretending to be friends with a girl in order to hopefully have a relationship with her at some point--then you've missed the point of love. AKA The ability to sacrifice your own desires for someone else's happiness without expecting anything in return.

I can't think of anyone I've ever known who has really begun to understand what "love" is until they're a long ways into a relationship. As a culture, we have an infatuation with the concept of "perfect love," but the point is that love is imperfect, and that relationships are also imperfect.

Love's imperfections are what makes it perfect.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:02 pm UTC

Susy wrote:You know, actually I am not sure this is the right approach to take. Being a girl, I have done that, go straight to the bussines: I like you, you like me, no promises. And still!!!! I get rejected!!! How crazy is that, eh?!! Ain´t men supposed to follow the saying: "why buy the cow if I can get the milk for free"

My theory, is that I am attracted to gay guys... :( kinda of a curse or something.


I think many men are actually scared of a girl who's very direct. Makes them feel insecure. And it's something alien for them. Men are supposed to be the ones taking the initiative, after all. At least in the worldview of most men, and women. Also, contrary to popular believe, most guys actually are looking for stable relationships and not just one-night-stands.

I myself sadly never seem to run into women like you :P
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Mavketl » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:04 pm UTC

Completely offtopic:

Diadem, this is going to sound like a dumb question, but where are you from?

You remind me of someone. It irks me.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby haliblix » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:07 pm UTC

ThomasS wrote:
haliblix wrote:This comic up until maybe the past couple of years was pretty much my entire theory on how to get a girl. But it never worked. The only time being a nice guy did work was when I somehow built up the nerve to ask the girl out that i bought sunglasses from. The key difference was that we weren't in the friend zone. The friend zone is death. I repeat to anyone who thinks otherwise THE FRIEND ZONE IS DEATH. It's the black hole of romance. Once you've crossed that event horizon, your toast and unless you disappear from her life and reinvent yourself as someone new and improve (even that is a slim chance), the only winning move is to move on.

I think it is better to say that the friend zone is just that. Not a relationship.

I don't think it is wrong to say to a girl who happens to be a friend "We have been friends for a while, but I think that now I'm starting to fall for you. Hearing you talk about your trouble with other guys is starting to bother me, etc, etc." But you don't pull that sort of thing when they are in the middle of crying over their last breakup, and you don't wait with baited breath effectively demanding that they tell you what what they make of a declaration like that right now. Friends don't put friends on the spot like that.

Give somebody time to think about a declaration like that and maybe they will decide it is a good idea, and suddenly you have moved from the friend zone to dating. Maybe they'll want to stay in the friend zone, but will try to talk less about their relationship problems with you. Maybe they will decide it is too weird and stop calling. Assuming which they will choose is, I think, the same egomaniac attitude that is being derided by the comic.


It's not a demand. It's a simple question that got met with an immediate answer. Ask any woman if they know if they want to be with a guy within the first 5 minutes of meeting them and they will all give you the same answer. And you can't "ease" into it either. Telling a girl that it bothers you when she talks about other guys isn't going to lead her to the obvious conclusion. Don't beat around the bush about it. It shows your scared to take the chance. And it's not about being aggressive. Being funny, flirt, carrying great conversation, and at the right moment taking the chance is all it really takes. Getting past the fear of rejection is the best way to avoid the "just friends but i wish it was more" status.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:15 pm UTC

FemaleEngineer wrote:I feel like this is a total cop-out. If you're really the guy in the comic--pretending to be friends with a girl in order to hopefully have a relationship with her at some point--then you've missed the point of love. AKA The ability to sacrifice your own desires for someone else's happiness without expecting anything in return.

I can't think of anyone I've ever known who has really begun to understand what "love" is until they're a long ways into a relationship. As a culture, we have an infatuation with the concept of "perfect love," but the point is that love is imperfect, and that relationships are also imperfect.

Love's imperfections are what makes it perfect.


This is a total cop-out too, and it leads to the completely nonsensical "Love's imperfections are what makes it perfect" conclusion. What you're describing as "love" is really "a series of rationalizations used to explain something that is simple, mundane, but also a little bit terrible into something wonderful so I don't have to feel bad about it."

Think about it: "The ability to sacrifice your own desires for someone else's happiness without expecting anything in return" could just as easily be you sacrificing your desires to be with our Nice Guy in question.

The Nice Guy in the comic is not pathetic because of his motivations. We ALL want the best possible mate (or as many possible mates) for ourselves. What makes him pathetic is that the approach he has chosen results in massive failure.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:17 pm UTC

The guy is a selfish jerk. He doesn't care about her happiness, but only about his own fantasy. That's why the last panel is so good. He claims "But he doesn't respect you", but of course he himself is the one who doesn't repect her. If you respect a girl, you're honest about your feelings.


When typing *hug* to her, it has "selflessly" in a box on the side, that isn't very selfish

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Mavketl » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:19 pm UTC

Bartimaeus wrote:
The guy is a selfish jerk. He doesn't care about her happiness, but only about his own fantasy. That's why the last panel is so good. He claims "But he doesn't respect you", but of course he himself is the one who doesn't repect her. If you respect a girl, you're honest about your feelings.

When typing *hug* to her, it has "selflessly" in a box on the side, that isn't very selfish

Yeah, he's selflessly trying to make her depend on him and waiting for a moment of weakness on her part to take advantage of. Selflessly.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby The Scale » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:26 pm UTC

Quietly hoping that your "friend" becomes lonely or miserable enough to shag you...

I wish I could say I was never in the guy's situation. Funny how we find ways to cast ourselves as the hero, when ultimately we're just afraid to ask people out. We'd rather entertain a complex and unlikely fantasy--and make a mockery of the very idea of friendship--than face the facts.

Truth is, us self-proclaimed "nice guys" aren't any better or worse than the "jerks" they end up dating. It's just something we say to comfort ourselves so that we don't have to change our behaviors.

I do like her assertion of free will in the last panel. An honest jerk is better than a friend with ulterior motives. Maybe that's why all the honest jerks that I count among my friends are now happily married or in healthy relationships...

If more of us had the courage to face rejection, more of us would probably be happier.

thebrew221
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby thebrew221 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:31 pm UTC

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007 ... once-more/

This should be required reading for everyone in this thread. That is all.

RoyW
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby RoyW » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:34 pm UTC

Tevildo wrote:-You blurt out your hidden attraction to someone who is of an incompatible orientation. It's not cute; they won't make exceptions; welcome to the land of the dead. (Chasing Amy is the worst "relationship" movie of all time.) If you knew beforehand, it was a mistake to bring it up at all, even if it was painfully obvious to everyone. If not, you need to polish up that 'dar.

This is not always true. I once managed to get strongly attracted to someone with an 'incompatible orientation', and finally let her know about it (she'd already guessed). It was a good thing to do - she took it well, it cleared the air and also enabled me to move on and put her in the friend zone where she belongs. It probably helped that I was never expecting her to make an exception.

cr08
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby cr08 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

thebrew221 wrote:http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/12/16/the-internet-nice-guy-rears-his-ugly-head-once-more/

This should be required reading for everyone in this thread. That is all.


I honestly stopped reading after the author equated a relationship with outright sex one too many times.

shinylilfish
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby shinylilfish » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:43 pm UTC

Let me comment. I'm annoyed by the fact that guys don't seem to think that there's any reason that they should be friends with someone if there's no chance to "get with them". In general, I want to date people that I am friends with, but if they're not interested, I'm ok with that. Is it optimal? No, but they're still interesting people. What does this stem from? I'm under the impression that guys refuse to "just be friends" with girls because it's not macho, etc. I've had guys that I've asked about this agree. Anyway, it's frustrating because generally I don't like to hang out with girls, and this complicates issues with guys (since I'm already dating someone, and have been for the last 5 years). Anyone out there sympathize or am I just nuts?

PS The worst response to this that I've heard is that many men don't find the women that they're attracted to as appealing as male friends on an intellectual level. That's fucked up in more than one way, I will point out.

Edit: Hmm... well, all of this, and I'm shy on top of it, so maybe never mind
Last edited by shinylilfish on Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:49 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Commodore
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Commodore » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:45 pm UTC

Yikes, great comic, and yeah, used to be that way, but I'm shocked...is there nobody else with even vaguely protective/instructive instincts going "Yay! Teaching comic, will spread to the teenyboppers now!". I think they'll get the irony, I really do.

Actually, I've explained this to my little sister and her friend, who are surrounded by guys like him (DAMN YOU, growth hormones in chicken, stop doing that to young teens).

..it exploded their minds.

Seriously, thanks to Randall, I now have a visual aid in my "trust me kiddo, those friends ain't Platonic" message.

The Scale
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby The Scale » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

Flewellyn wrote:One thing I have to wonder at, is the number of (presumably) men here who are saying "Oh, this is so me!", and not realizing that the comic is not on their side.

Seriously. The comic is saying this is a bad thing to do. Bad thing! No do!

Sheesh.


I agree that it's a bad thing to do, but I'm not sure the comic is picking sides. The guy is in the wrong, but I still feel bad for him. Imagine how lonely he must be to construct such a fantasy.

Lunch Meat
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Lunch Meat » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

haliblix wrote:Ask any woman if they know if they want to be with a guy within the first 5 minutes of meeting them and they will all give you the same answer.


I've been trying to write a paper and keep up with this topic all day, and of all posts, it's this that finally forces me to log in. That is not true in the slightest. The last guy I fell in love with, I was not attracted to at all for three months. Then I (*gasp* what a concept!) got to know him, and it changed. Yes, within the first 5 minutes of knowing someone, I could give you a pretty decent answer as to whether I would date him at that time, but I'd be a fool not to recognize that my feelings change. I might get a massive crush on a guy the moment I meet him, and then get over it and realize I could do better, or that he's not good for me. I could meet a guy on a bad day or he could screw up with the first impression, but as I hang out with him I could fall for him. Or I could meet someone and not even think about it for months, and not have any strong feelings either way until something makes me think about it, like him asking me out. I don't know any girl who has a friend zone with boundaries that never get crossed. It's a silly way to rationalize away the fact that maybe you really are just not her type, or she's not interested right now, or she's not ready for a relationship, and none of this has to be either of y'all's fault.

*cough* I have more that I want to say. But I really am going to finish this paper.
Last edited by Lunch Meat on Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:52 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

FemaleEngineer
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FemaleEngineer » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:51 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
FemaleEngineer wrote:I feel like this is a total cop-out. If you're really the guy in the comic--pretending to be friends with a girl in order to hopefully have a relationship with her at some point--then you've missed the point of love. AKA The ability to sacrifice your own desires for someone else's happiness without expecting anything in return.

I can't think of anyone I've ever known who has really begun to understand what "love" is until they're a long ways into a relationship. As a culture, we have an infatuation with the concept of "perfect love," but the point is that love is imperfect, and that relationships are also imperfect.

Love's imperfections are what makes it perfect.


This is a total cop-out too, and it leads to the completely nonsensical "Love's imperfections are what makes it perfect" conclusion. What you're describing as "love" is really "a series of rationalizations used to explain something that is simple, mundane, but also a little bit terrible into something wonderful so I don't have to feel bad about it."

Think about it: "The ability to sacrifice your own desires for someone else's happiness without expecting anything in return" could just as easily be you sacrificing your desires to be with our Nice Guy in question.

The Nice Guy in the comic is not pathetic because of his motivations. We ALL want the best possible mate (or as many possible mates) for ourselves. What makes him pathetic is that the approach he has chosen results in massive failure.


I shall rephrase what you see as a nonsensical phrase: Relationships' imperfections are what make love perfect. Personally, I liked the parallel structure and seeming logical conflict, it made sense to me in a "can't be rationally explained" way. Love as an emotion would probably be a pure, perfect concept (at least in the eros sense... I wrote a paper on the greek definitions of love in HS, but can't remember what all the other ones were), but because we're imperfect, the implementation is imperfect.

Disagreements and fights are the lows, but how do you know the highs without lows? As a friend said to me on my wedding day: "I hope it's perfect, even when it's not." Made immediate sense after the day was over, and it certainly applies to relationships, too. But I digress.

I suppose my issue is that the Nice Guy already knows that he's going to make her unhappy. He's forseen it, and is going ahead with his evil plan anyway. He obviously doesn't love her, because he'd attempt to avoid making her unhappy if he did. If it was really "love" and not a "crush" he would think about her more than himself. And there's no proof that the girl is in love with him, so her "sacrificing her desires to be with the Nice Guy in question" makes no sense.

What I take most offense to is the thought that someone with a crush in this situation isn't being selfish. If they're willing to manipulate a girl like this, they're obviously not being motivated by (selfless) love, they're being motivated by (selfish) need/greed/lust. The selfish issue has already been debated here by others already, so I won't elaborated further.

Anyhow, when you give the Nice Guy (TM) the benefit of a doubt on whether he loves her or not, what it really turns into is an ethical debate: does he allow himself to be motivated by his baser instincts of self-preservation/selfishness or his higher-level ethics of self-sacrifice for those you love?
Last edited by FemaleEngineer on Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:54 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Inkstain
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Inkstain » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:53 pm UTC

I'm having trouble believing any woman knows her interest in a man in the first five minutes, unless he opens the conversation with his income and bank account.

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ohnoesmilk
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ohnoesmilk » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:55 pm UTC

Kokuro wrote:Oh me yarm! I'm going through this issue right now! She's an amazing girl, and I realized about a week ago that after knowing her for almost a year I've fallen in love with her. But I have those exact same feelings as the guy in the comic. She just recently broke up with her boyfriend and I know this is probably my only chance, but if she doesn't like me the way I love her, I don't know if I'd be able to go on, knowing I f'd the chance to at least stay friends. So I'm doing everything I can just to stay close friends with her. It hurts so much. I don't fall in love easily, I've had thousands of crushes, but only three girls (her being the third) have ever made it to the love stage. I'm in love with her in every sense of the word. She's a beautiful girl with shoulder length dark blonde hair and the most beautiful hazel eyes you could ever look into. She's not huge in the chest area, but what she has is just right for her body. And her personality, Oh me yarm!!! She's sweet, and kind, and caring, and funny, and even a little dirty. I'll never forget one day we were standing there and she had her phone in her back pocket, all of sudden it started vibrating and she goes, "Ohh, I'm vibrating," and after checking the message she looks at me and kind of winks saying, "But I don't need a vibrator, I've got a boyfriend." Granted I'm sure she's as innocent as the day is long, but it's the naughtyness behind it that's what makes it so appealing. I'd litterally do anything for this girl, and while she thinks of me as a good friend, I know she doesn't think of me the way I think of her. Her birthday is coming up soon. I'm planning on getter her a card, a gift card to Dunkin, (she's in love with Dunkin and probably does run on it ¡This cheese is burning me!) and a single rose. I know she'll probably yell at me for it, saying she can't accept it all, and I plan on simply telling her that she's the only person at work I'd ever go to all the trouble for. Hopefully she'll finally realize I love her, and that knowledge will be enough for her. I'm not the greatest looking guy in the world, and I probalby don't deserve her love, but when I love someone, they're the only one I ever think of. So, wish me luck guys.


Dude, just tell her.
<Guo_Si> Hey, you know what sucks?
<TheXPhial> vaccuums
<Guo_Si> Hey, you know what sucks in a metaphorical sense?
<TheXPhial> black holes
<Guo_Si> Hey, you know what just isn't cool?
<TheXPhial> lava?


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