0513: "Friends"

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virgletati
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby virgletati » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:41 am UTC

Xentropy wrote:Am I happy? Probably not. But I'm content, and the lonely feelings crop up less and less as I get older. Society attaches a stigma to being single, like the entire purpose of living is to find a mate (and evolutionarily speaking, I suppose it may be, but one benefit of our evolutionary advantages over other animals is the ability to live outside of those same boundaries), but one can live a very fulfilling life without ever experiencing the opposite sex. In fact, given instances like the situation depicted in this comic, it seems from the outside looking in like far more trouble than it could possibly be worth.

Oh? More trouble than it could possibly be worth? Is that why so many of us are in relationships? Maybe life itself is too much trouble, how could it possibly be worth being miserable some of the time and things being complicated???

My advisor was like you. I'm probably closer to him than most student/advisors. I had to take him to the emergency room for psychiatric evaluation after he had a personal meltdown triggered by his realization of having no close friends (but me, sort of), no family, and DEFINITELY no wife. He is 50 and starting to see a shrink and finally figuring out that work isn't everything. IT'S NOT EVERYTHING. WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU GET OLD. You HAVE to be realistic about your life and MAKE. THE. EFFORT to have what you really want.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby NullHyp » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:47 am UTC

double entendre wrote:My criteria for whether you are a Nice Guy (TM):
1. You are a guy that consider himself "nice" to a girl that you are friends with.
2. You complain or at any point feel that women are attracted to jerks, where jerk != you.
Is there a special category for:
1. You are a guy that consider himself "nice" to a girl that you are friends with.
2: You complain or at any point feel that the women you like are dating every other nice guy but yourself.
3: You acknowledge that "jerks" - not jerks (TM) - are actually fun people to hang out with.
:|

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Xentropy » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:55 am UTC

virgletati wrote:My advisor was like you. I'm probably closer to him than most student/advisors. I had to take him to the emergency room for psychiatric evaluation after he had a personal meltdown triggered by his realization of having no close friends (but me, sort of), no family, and DEFINITELY no wife. He is 50 and starting to see a shrink and finally figuring out that work isn't everything. IT'S NOT EVERYTHING. WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU GET OLD. You HAVE to be realistic about your life and MAKE. THE. EFFORT to have what you really want.


One anecdote really doesn't prove anything. There are plenty of people who never marry and experience no mental breakdowns. Also, I never said I had no close friends, just no females in my life. As for work not being everything, I agree, but a job you can't stand going to can have a profound negative impact on your life--one I have experienced first-hand. If "making the effort" to find companionship involves regressing into that period of my life again, where I hated even getting out of bed each day, I'll have nothing of it.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Bluewink » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:58 am UTC

Throughout this discussion, I really wished we could see the age of every poster. There's a huge difference between being "that guy" at 16 and being "that guy" at 30. And the same goes for being "that girl" taking advantage of a guy who obviously has feelings for her(not sayin that this is what happens in this comic, I'm absolutely on her side! I have been the girl who has tried to be friend with a guy who had feelings for her. In some cases, the feelings were acknowledged, in some cases, not. In some cases, I tried to go out with them to see if something could grow out of a few compatibilities, in some cases not. (In some cases, this should be singular, not plural, I'm not *that* popular!) I have also succeded in staying friends with an ex-boyfriend with whom I was really in love. So was he but complicated circumstances and a few incompatibilities conspired in splitting us up, we eventually got back together and split up again. Having that relationship turn in a true friendship has taken a lot of work, time and quite a few tears, but it was completely worthwile. Through all these experiences, I have learned a few things:

- Love is not a plant. You can't just provide water, soil and sunshine and expect love to grow with time. Any expectation (and sometimes the distinction is blurry between expectation and hope is blurry, I'll get back to that later) of love as a result of given attention and affection is manipulation. You can't command love, no matter how much you deserve it. This is sad and unfair, but true as far as I can tell. Why is it a manipulation? Because if you are good friends with someone, they should be able to read you to some extent. If they can read your expectation, that creates guilt and that is the basis of manipulation. (I should of course mention that an expectation of a few months is acceptable to see how the friendship will naturally develop, but above three months, I would have serious doubts.)

Now, I do draw a line between what I will call "pure hope" and expectation. I think that it is possible to tone down your feelings to an acceptable level of friendship and keep a door just barely open in case some romantic feelings would show up, which I would call "pure hope", but I do think it's hard to do and, most often than not, very painful. But any kind of waiting and holding out for someone (dating people fully knowing that you won't be interested in them still counts as holding out) I consider to be an expectation. I find the difference similar to someone playing the lottery for fun, "Who knows, it might happen!" and a gambling addict "But this time will be the right one, I know it!"

- An unbalanced relationship will lead to manipulation from either party... or both! Just like it is possible to use guilt to manipulate someone in an unbalanced relationship, it's possible to be on the other side and use the other person in various ways confident/self esteem boost/"it's better than being alone" relationship, etc. There are always two sides to a medal and it's quite possible that both sides will be just a little wrong and that's what will result in a very unhealthy relationship.

I can understand "expectation" and "using" from someone in their first few relationships whether conciously or unconciously. It's probably a natural learning phase for most people. But I think one has to be able to recognize that situation and avoid it in the future out of respect for both the other person and themselves. There's no point in calling someone a jerk or a bitch if they're just mislead, just try to learn from your own life experiences and hope that others will do the same.

- Just because she's right for him doesn't mean he's right for her. (Use with any pronoun combination that you want.) Again, unfair and sad, but true.

All in all, my advice is: be honest, with the other person as well as with yourself, take responsibility for your own feelings and accept that you can't will someone else's into changing.

This doesn't seem as enlightened as it seemed when I registered to post it... Possibly because I've chosen not to bash at the last guy whom I've tried to turn down and remain friends with 8 times over the last 6 months. That was an uneven relationship, which he wanted to change into a friendship, but as far as I'm concerned, he was still "expecting". Turning down a guy 8 times is not pleasant... I guess I still have to learn how to be fair to a guy who says he can handle remaining friends but apparently can't.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Acrididae » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:23 am UTC

virgletati wrote:WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU GET OLD. You HAVE to be realistic about your life and MAKE. THE. EFFORT to have what you really want.


You say that as if it is possible for everyone to just do it. It isn't.

I cannot bring myself to ask girls out. It feels completely and utterly wrong, and the idea that I might be annoying a girl by doing so scares me away from it completely.

So unless society changes its insane self-imposed guidelines that guys do the asking (which I do not, and never will accept) I'll be spending the next 36 years of my life single, too.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Bluewink » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:37 am UTC

Acrididae wrote:So unless society changes its insane self-imposed guidelines that guys do the asking (which I do not, and never will accept) I'll be spending the next 36 years of my life single, too.


We're working on it! There's no reason for it to be any easier for us, you know! And to have a perfectly equalitarian dating system, you'd still have to be able to do 50% of the asking! Besides trust me, it's way more annoying for a girl to even suspect a guy has a feelings for her and won't do anything about it. If the girl is slightly worth your affection, she won't ridicule you. If she does, she's not worth your feeling crappy about it.

It's a silly analogy, but I used to not be able to meet people's eyes. At some point, I got fed up with it and forced myself to stare at people I crossed in the hallway until it was VERY uncomfortable, telling myself that it was probably only a minor discomfort for them that they'd forget quickly, but it might help me for the rest of my life. It did. I'm now a teacher and stand everyday in front of 45 teenagers!

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Rinsaikeru » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:39 am UTC

I do understand what you mean Acrididae--it shouldn't be up to you to always ask the girl. But, the scenario you present is that the girl ALWAYS asks you, that doesn't seem fair either. Not to mention that it's really incredibly unlikely given the current culture about this sort of thing.

If you can't bear to possibly annoy her for the minute in which you ask if she'd like to go out with you--then I suppose you'll have to politely sideline yourself forever. Personally, I can say I'd much rather be asked point blank rather than have someone mooning around. Asking is hard but it's pretty straightforward.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby JayDee » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:46 am UTC

Acrididae wrote:So unless society changes its insane self-imposed guidelines that guys do the asking (which I do not, and never will accept) I'll be spending the next 36 years of my life single, too.
I'm with you there, buddy. In fact, I think I'm going to not ask any girls out in protest in an attempt to change society. Who's with me‽
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Hawknc wrote:I like to think that he hasn't left, he's just finally completed his foe list.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Acrididae » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:12 am UTC

JayDee wrote:I'm with you there, buddy. In fact, I think I'm going to not ask any girls out in protest in an attempt to change society. Who's with me‽


Well, effectively, I already am ;)

But I'd rather see a worldwide advertising campaign designed to change society's behaviour, much in the same way as those that have been so effective for anti-smoking and anti-drink-driving. Here's my contribution:

Image

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Rinsaikeru » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:23 am UTC

I somehow think this might fail...if only because girls tend to assume guys will judge them for asking. AND some guys do judge girls who are 'forward.'
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Acrididae » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:36 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:I somehow think this might fail...if only because girls tend to assume guys will judge them for asking. AND some guys do judge girls who are 'forward.'


Not a lot different to "I tend to assume girls will think I'm creepy if I ask them out. AND some girls would think I'm creepy if I did"...

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby moto_tx » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:10 am UTC

ZephyrSpark wrote:
Random832, NOT moto_tx wrote:Guys always want to have sex. It is impossible for a man to be friends with a woman because he will always want to have sex with her. Because guys always want to have sex.


Whoa whoa WHOA, hold the damn phone! That is completely and utterly wrong in every way! While it is true that there are guys out there that only have sex on the mind, the opposite is just as true for others.

Now I know that this sounds very arrogant on my part, but... I am the Nice Guy. I mean the Nice Guy, and I'm damn proud of it. I have more female friends than guy friends, and every one of them I became friends with because I wanted to be friends and ONLY friends with them. True, with a few of them down the line I did develop crushes on them, but when I asked them out and they said no it didn't hurt our friendship at all (which I am eternally greatful for). It's because they all know that I wasn't trying to be friends with them just to get in their pants, and I'm disgusted at the people who do.

Furthermore, the notion that sex is the only thing on a guy's mind is absolutely absurd. When I ask a girl out, it's because I'm emotionally attracted to the girl. Yes, I am also physically attracted to the girl, but that is something that is in the back of my mind. There's a damn good reason why I'm still a virgin... Okay, it's mostly because I've only ever had one girlfriend, and that only lasted a month and a half (main drawback to being the Nice Guy; why date me when you can be emotionally close to me as a friend?), but the fact is that sex is something I am going to save for way down the line (not necessarily marriage, but at least love).

Okay, I'm calm now. *deep breath*


These were NOT my words, but a "summarization" of my opinion by Random832, which in the very next post I disagreed with.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby moto_tx » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:19 am UTC

Xentropy wrote:
virgletati wrote:My advisor was like you. I'm probably closer to him than most student/advisors. I had to take him to the emergency room for psychiatric evaluation after he had a personal meltdown triggered by his realization of having no close friends (but me, sort of), no family, and DEFINITELY no wife. He is 50 and starting to see a shrink and finally figuring out that work isn't everything. IT'S NOT EVERYTHING. WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU GET OLD. You HAVE to be realistic about your life and MAKE. THE. EFFORT to have what you really want.


One anecdote really doesn't prove anything. There are plenty of people who never marry and experience no mental breakdowns. Also, I never said I had no close friends, just no females in my life. As for work not being everything, I agree, but a job you can't stand going to can have a profound negative impact on your life--one I have experienced first-hand. If "making the effort" to find companionship involves regressing into that period of my life again, where I hated even getting out of bed each day, I'll have nothing of it.


I'm a little surprised that you don't think there are *any* 9-5 jobs or careers that would satisfy you, but I won't argue. Just think about it.

Also, I wasn't terribly clear in my post, but I don't think you have to quit your job in order to be successful with women. All I meant to stress is that it WILL require a huge investment from you -- in terms of time and willingness to change. I think being awake at the same time that everyone else is will certainly make it easier, but it is by no means impossible otherwise.

If you are willing to make that commitment, then you totally, 100% can fix this part of your life. It is not easy. But if it does not bother you that much, then you don't have to. I hope you decide it is worth it, because IMO it totally is.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby moto_tx » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:33 am UTC

Acrididae wrote:
virgletati wrote:WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU GET OLD. You HAVE to be realistic about your life and MAKE. THE. EFFORT to have what you really want.


You say that as if it is possible for everyone to just do it. It isn't.

I cannot bring myself to ask girls out. It feels completely and utterly wrong, and the idea that I might be annoying a girl by doing so scares me away from it completely.

So unless society changes its insane self-imposed guidelines that guys do the asking (which I do not, and never will accept) I'll be spending the next 36 years of my life single, too.


Acrididae, you are wrong. You have serious confidence issues. Your attitude towards women is wrong. And listen to yourself, man... you want the entire world to change around just so that you don't have to! It sure is a comforting thought, isn't it? "I'm not the one who is wrong; it's the rest of society. THEY need to change. Not me."

I'm only calling you out on this stuff because I believe you can be helped, and can fix your problems. But... as cliche as this is... the first step is admitting you have a problem. The second step is committing to fixing it.

So I just said this in another reply, but I think it is worth emphasizing... every "nice guy" in here could use a huge dose of willingness to change.

It is not easy. I get that. Over the last several years I have been working to solve my own confidence and women issues, and it has been working. I didn't do it alone, I had help from friends that were going through the same thing. Depending on how you are now, you might even need professional help to get started. Believe me though guys... all of you... it *is* possible. You can become confident. The world is NOT going to change for you, but I believe you will be happier if you change for it. I have, and I am.

Cheers everyone, best of luck to all the guys here!

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby korbels » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:39 pm UTC

Anyone else think we need a "Friends" support group thread? :lol:

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:58 pm UTC

The_Beige_Volvo wrote:
FireZs wrote:
dating is complicated


It's not, actually. It's simple and brutal. At the end of the day, everyone puts their own happiness/desires first, and everyone optimizes their situation accordingly. The few exceptions who do not are inconsequential, because they will be off the market very very quickly.

No I'm still on the market right now ;)


You're not an exception. If you are, go out right now and hit on the most undesirable person you can find, and promise to marry them and work for their happiness.

Either that or you're so undesirable yourself that you're effectively not on the market anyway.
Last edited by FireZs on Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:07 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:
FireZs wrote:Over the years I've honed my decision-making skills when considering "Shit That Don't Really Matter(tm)" to extreme levels of twitchy-speediness and forceful delivery. Example:

"Should I wear this dress or that dre..""THE ONE ON THE RIGHT!"
"Hair up or do..""DOWN!"
"What should we have for dinn..""DUMPLINGS!"

etc.

They seem to love it.

...

Can you explain to me, please, why exactly you go on dates and have girlfriends? Like, what's the goal here? Is it to be able to find a woman you love so you can spend time with her? Is everything just the price you pay for sex? Habit? Cultural norms? Extreme boredom?


Does decisiveness and assertiveness offend you? Does it actually matter one way or the other? Does the speed at which I make decisions undermine my morality or make my motivations for pursuing women somehow suspect?

Anyway, the reasons I go over the top with split second decision-making in scenarios outlined above is twofold:
1. It makes women happy, or at least less likely to be unhappy due to male indecisiveness.
2. To highlight how ridiculous this particular aspect of male valuation is.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:21 pm UTC

Acrididae wrote:But I'd rather see a worldwide advertising campaign designed to change society's behaviour, much in the same way as those that have been so effective for anti-smoking and anti-drink-driving.


What makes you think they'll ask you in particular out? I don't think you thought this clever plan all the way through.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Smobius » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:25 pm UTC

korbels wrote:So I read this Friday and have done ALOT of thinking. It took me a long time to come up with how this has impacted me but I'm ready to give it a shot...

It's like the entire universe around me went into suddenly sharp focus without realizing it was not in focus before and at the same instant was suddenly upside-down.

Without even realizing it I was the Nice GuyTM. I always thought that relationships would grow from friendship and was SO FRUSTRATED that nothing ever developed. I resented the guys who would be forthcoming with their intentions and think of them as jerks when all they were doing was honest. I realized that I am not anti-social or really that shy, but am afraid of rejection and would avoid approaching girls I knew nothing about because I would think of them as a huge time investment to get to know them but than the frustration cycle would just repeat. I also act selflessly but that does not mean I'm selfless. I would always say "yes" and be a terrific person to everyone but resent it the entire time because it never made me happy because they would often not reciprocate to me. What I've learned: Make yourself happy=be happy. So simple, and yet How/Why would I subscribe to that old mentality?

I've read the entire thread and went to some of the links trying to come up with why I have subscribed to this behavior for so long. This search for answers has answered some and raised even more. Most notably is when I read about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and how I seem to place my higher needs before my primitive needs which the more I thought about it made no sense.

So... yea... I have some work to do, and habits to break. My head feels like it's going to explode and I'm a kaleidoscope of emotion, it's going to be a GREAT week ¡This cheese is burning me!.


Prospekt wrote:wow, this comic was an eye opener for me. It's always good to see another perspective on yourself...
thanks for that randall!


Responses like this make me happy. It has been a few, and I feel that was the point of this awesome comic.

First time poster. I’ve read this entire lengthy thread (to my great personal amusement), and can’t help to at least try explain a few things.
I’ve seen ladder theory mentioned a couple of times, and quickly be disregarded out of hand. That’s a good thing, because the original ladder theory is mostly a bunch of misogynistic drivel. HOWEVER, if you take a look at ladder theory carefully dissected, there are golden points to be found there.

I would urge all of you who are confused about these matters to have a look at the ladder wiki page for such a dissected view on ladder theory: http://ladderwiki.com/w/index.php/Main_Page

Tried to keep my post short so that people might read it, it’s posted with the best possible intention: namely to help deliver that hard slap to the “Oh me yarm that’s sooo me, get out of my head Randall!” people. Or even better; provide some answer for those of you, like korbels, who genuinely want to change :)

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Quixotess » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:47 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Does decisiveness and assertiveness offend you? Does it actually matter one way or the other? Does the speed at which I make decisions undermine my morality or make my motivations for pursuing women somehow suspect?

Nice try. You admit in your very next paragraph that what you wrote was over the top.

And you didn't answer my question. I already got why you do your interrupting yelling thing. I've been reading this thread and consequently your posts, and I would like to know:

why exactly you go on dates and have girlfriends? Like, what's the goal here? Is it to be able to find a woman you love so you can spend time with her? Is everything just the price you pay for sex? Habit? Cultural norms? Extreme boredom?
Raise up the torch and light the way.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby korbels » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:16 pm UTC

Smobius wrote:I would urge all of you who are confused about these matters to have a look at the ladder wiki page for such a dissected view on ladder theory: http://ladderwiki.com/w/index.php/Main_Page

Tried to keep my post short so that people might read it, it’s posted with the best possible intention: namely to help deliver that hard slap to the “Oh me yarm that’s sooo me, get out of my head Randall!” people. Or even better; provide some answer for those of you, like korbels, who genuinely want to change :)


Now I'm a Intellectual Whore

No more Mr NiceGuyTM. Now to just put all of this into action in the field.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:21 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:Nice try. You admit in your very next paragraph that what you wrote was over the top.

And you didn't answer my question. I already got why you do your interrupting yelling thing. I've been reading this thread and consequently your posts, and I would like to know:

why exactly you go on dates and have girlfriends? Like, what's the goal here? Is it to be able to find a woman you love so you can spend time with her? Is everything just the price you pay for sex? Habit? Cultural norms? Extreme boredom?


Ah, didn't realize you were from an earlier conversation.

The goal of a relationship with a girl/woman is the same for me as anyone else. To be happy, to be in love, to have physical pleasures, to have someone to watch movies with, talk with, etc. I do have a girlfriend, if you're curious.

But here's the point: My view of what a relationship should be doesn't really help me get a relationship in the first place. So before all that can happen, I would need to focus on not what I WANT, but what WORKS. It's like the process of getting a job you want versus actually working at the job once you get it. They're very different things.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:34 pm UTC

korbels wrote:Now I'm a Intellectual Whore
No more Mr NiceGuyTM. Now to just put all of this into action in the field.


Oh god, another one. Just so you know most of that stuff is pretty useless. It's like normal girls who see hot girls who act bitchy getting lots of attention from guys, and they start acting bitchy too to try to get the same level of attractiveness. Except they don't realize that the hot girl doesn't get attention because she's bitchy, she gets attention because she's hot. Or, alternatively, she's not hot because she's bitchy, she's bitchy because she's hot.

You're basically getting a wing transplant. Unless you're already a bird in the first place, you're not going to fly.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby korbels » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:41 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:You're basically getting a wing transplant. Unless you're already a bird in the first place, you're not going to fly.


Oh really? The challenge just aids in my determination :twisted:

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Rinsaikeru » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:54 pm UTC

Aids in your determination to jump off a cliff and plunge into the ocean boiling with lava. o_o But please do go ahead. I really prefer not to educate some men about how to properly pursue women--that way no woman will be subjected to their company in long doses.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:56 pm UTC

korbels wrote:
FireZs wrote:You're basically getting a wing transplant. Unless you're already a bird in the first place, you're not going to fly.


Oh really? The challenge just aids in my determination :twisted:


It's not a challenge. You'll find out soon enough whether you're fundamentally a bird, and if you're not, there won't be anything you can do to change that. Good luck, though.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby existential_elevator » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:58 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:It's like normal girls who see hot girls who act bitchy getting lots of attention from guys, and they start acting bitchy too to try to get the same level of attractiveness. Except they don't realize that the hot girl doesn't get attention because she's bitchy, she gets attention because she's hot. Or, alternatively, she's not hot because she's bitchy, she's bitchy because she's hot.


Wow, that was so astute. I can only assume the same applies to all the unattractive guys I hear talking about doing manly things, and expounding outmoded bigoted thought. They're clearly classifying me as an objectified woman in order that they can make themselves look as attractive as the hot* guys who do so. It's the socially accepted stereotype, and that makes someone more attractive! So, clearly that deserves positive attention.


*May or may not be "hot" due to being set on fire

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:20 pm UTC

It's so funny, FireZs, because ladder theory is such absolute bullshit, and we agree on this. But you somehow managed to find the only possible reason for thinking so that was more misogynistic, idiotic, and offensive than the theory itself.

How do you do that? I'm not even angry, I'm just fucking bewildered.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:44 pm UTC

Belial wrote:It's so funny, FireZs, because ladder theory is such absolute bullshit, and we agree on this. But you somehow managed to find the only possible reason for thinking so that was more misogynistic, idiotic, and offensive than the theory itself.

How do you do that? I'm not even angry, I'm just fucking bewildered.


I can't be misogynistic! Some of my best friends are women!

But seriously, how am I misogynistic? My view of relationships cover both sexes. Aping the mannerisms of people who are desirable to the opposite sex is done by both sides, and about equally effective (not very, unless you were already fundamentally desirable to begin with). How is that an offensive idea?

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby korbels » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:11 pm UTC

I don't know why suddenly I need to be told to go jump off a cliff into lava : /

I feel misunderstood, I was not subscribing to ladder theory (especially since I just heard of it) i was merely calling myself a IW since by the ladder theory's definition it's "The Nice GuyTM". Regardless of what it's called I need to stop it now that I know the consequences since I was not aware of it before. My action into the field comment is just me reiterating that I need to get off my ass and do something other than what I've been doing.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Smobius » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:37 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
korbels wrote:Now I'm a Intellectual Whore
No more Mr NiceGuyTM. Now to just put all of this into action in the field.


Oh god, another one. Just so you know most of that stuff is pretty useless. It's like normal girls who see hot girls who act bitchy getting lots of attention from guys, and they start acting bitchy too to try to get the same level of attractiveness. Except they don't realize that the hot girl doesn't get attention because she's bitchy, she gets attention because she's hot. Or, alternatively, she's not hot because she's bitchy, she's bitchy because she's hot.

You're basically getting a wing transplant. Unless you're already a bird in the first place, you're not going to fly.


You are making the assumption that people cannot change. I don’t buy that at all, people can and do change, it is all about willingness to so, which has been a returning issue in this thread. You are right in one way, that you cannot force people to change against their will, but if someone genuinely want change in their life, it’s going to happen.

Let’s build on your metaphor with birds. I will continue to use korbels as an example since I identified so much with his initial post, and he remind me of how I used to be. He might have been an egg before he read this comic, eggs don’t fly and if you toss it in the air it will fall down and break. But the egg hatched when he read it, now the bird wants to fly, and it’s going to.

Theory and concepts like Intellectual whores and such is just flying lessons – the bird might eventually fly without them, but it’s going to speed up the process. It helped me at any rate, and I was a chubby semi-social WoW geek.

Original ladder theory is a work of satire (even though it claims to be scientific) and should not be taken entirely seriously. The community that formed around it however should be, and provides allot of help to those who has realized their ‘Nice guy’ ways.

Korbels, I’m rooting for you buddy, don’t go and drown yourself in lava ;)

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:52 pm UTC

FireZs:

Let's start with how it's offensive in general. It presupposes that there's an objective standard by which you are "attractive" or "unattractive". Which is basically just a way of canonizing your own standard of attractiveness and saying that if you find someone unattractive, they're objectively unattractive and no one will ever want them.

It is, in short, bullshit.

Then you go further to basically say that "unattractive people" (a subjective term, but one that only makes sense in this context if we pretend it's objective) should know their place and not get to having thoughts and behaviours that are reserved for "attractive people", like having confidence.

Which is extra bullshit.

Which, given the general bullshit "noise level" of this thread (Seriously? People thought the comic was at all sympathetic to the male lead and his thought process, or that that was at all a good way to be?), it's pretty impressive to be able to make a noticeable blip.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:54 pm UTC

Smobius wrote:You are making the assumption that people cannot change. I don’t buy that at all, people can and do change, it is all about willingness to so, which has been a returning issue in this thread. You are right in one way, that you cannot force people to change against their will, but if someone genuinely want change in their life, it’s going to happen.

Let’s build on your metaphor with birds. I will continue to use korbels as an example since I identified so much with his initial post, and he remind me of how I used to be. He might have been an egg before he read this comic, eggs don’t fly and if you toss it in the air it will fall down and break. But the egg hatched when he read it, now the bird wants to fly, and it’s going to.

Theory and concepts like Intellectual whores and such is just flying lessons – the bird might eventually fly without them, but it’s going to speed up the process. It helped me at any rate, and I was a chubby semi-social WoW geek.

Original ladder theory is a work of satire (even though it claims to be scientific) and should not be taken entirely seriously. The community that formed around it however should be, and provides allot of help to those who has realized their ‘Nice guy’ ways.

Korbels, I’m rooting for you buddy, don’t go and drown yourself in lava ;)


Everything you've said is perfectly consistent with my view. Yes, people can change and grow. But just because they change doesn't mean they become more desirable, or even desirable at all. The "theory" you talk about is, once again, just a wing transplant, not flying lessons. Unless you are a grown bird to begin with, you'll end up coming off even more awkward and disjointed than you are now. Frankly, it's cruel to people to tell them that if they try hard enough, they can become attractive to the opposite sex when they simply are not.

Taking your WoW example. I used to play WoW myself, and I actually ended up dating a girl in my guild. Does that mean everyone can date a girl in WoW if they try hard enough? No, and it would be dishonest for me to tell people that they can.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Rinsaikeru » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:56 pm UTC

And all of this bs leads me to believe that there is a huge group of men out there who view dating as some sort of dating sim game made flesh.

It creeps me out and when I spot hallmark behaviours of it I cut and run.

There is not a codified strategy that will work on the individual you are attracted to. If you are interested in attracting ANY individual and you employ the 'splatter the wall and hope something sticks' strategy--well go ahead I guess, but I find it really awful.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:05 pm UTC

And all of this bs leads me to believe that there is a huge group of men out there who view dating as some sort of dating sim game made flesh.

It creeps me out and when I spot hallmark behaviours of it I cut and run.


Exactly. It speaks to viewing the opposite gender as a game or a puzzle to be beaten, rather than an actual person. It's a fundamentally creep-ish way of looking at things, made even moreso by the way someone who is good at it can actually mimic being an actual sincere human being.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby blue_eyedspacemonkey » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

FireZs wrote: Frankly, it's cruel to people to tell them that if they try hard enough, they can become attractive to the opposite sex when they simply are not.
I have been ninja'd something rotten, by people far more eloquent and qualified to respond to this than I, but seriously? This line made me so angry I could shit. I'm not sure if you're assuming that everyone finds the same people attractive as you do, thus meaning some people can never be attractive to any member of the opposite sex or not, but either way...ugh...
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:12 pm UTC

Belial wrote:FireZs:

Let's start with how it's offensive in general. It presupposes that there's an objective standard by which you are "attractive" or "unattractive". Which is basically just a way of canonizing your own standard of attractiveness and saying that if you find someone unattractive, they're objectively unattractive and no one will ever want them.

It is, in short, bullshit.


Ah yes, the "EVERYONE IS A UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE AND VERY VERY SPECIAL" argument. Like it or not, there ARE overarching standards of desirability in our society. Whether they are fair or not is not the point, the fact is that they EXIST. There are exceptions, of course, but the fact that these standards of desirability are so universals means that the likelyhood of an individual with high desirability, but who do not share the common social desirability standards, will be paired off very early, is very very high. Which means that effectively, the fact that these people exist mean just about nothing, because they're not very likely going to be available to you anyway.

Then you go further to basically say that "unattractive people" (a subjective term, but one that only makes sense in this context if we pretend it's objective) should know their place and not get to having thoughts and behaviours that are reserved for "attractive people", like having confidence.

Which is extra bullshit.

Which, given the general bullshit "noise level" of this thread (Seriously? People thought the comic was at all sympathetic to the male lead and his thought process, or that that was at all a good way to be?), it's pretty impressive to be able to make a noticeable blip.


That's not what I'm saying. Everyone is free to be confident, everyone is free to think or act however they wish. What I am saying is that they shouldn't expect that to make themselves any more fundamentally desirable. It doesn't matter how confident Brian Peppers is, he's not going to get action from a girl without being registered as a sex offender. Oh wait, HE IS.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ethraax » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:13 pm UTC

FireZs wrote: Frankly, it's cruel to people to tell them that if they try hard enough, they can become attractive to the opposite sex when they simply are not.


And here is where I whip out "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Because, like so many other things in this world (desirability comes to mind), your opinion on how someone looks is your opinion, and is not necessarily shared by others.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Rinsaikeru » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:26 pm UTC

Yes, there are certain people who will, as a rule, be defined as most beautiful by a large proportion of society. This is not to say that this is a singular overarching STANDARD by which all people are measured. There are lots of different sorts of beauty and appeal--not everyone is attracted to a singular model of what beauty is.

I can tell you, for instance, that guys my friends find attractive will not get my motor going and vice versa. We like different things in terms of appearance. That said, I've dated guys that don't fit the category I find most attractive--just because I liked who they are as people. That's the important bit.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby setzer777 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:26 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
That's not what I'm saying. Everyone is free to be confident, everyone is free to think or act however they wish. What I am saying is that they shouldn't expect that to make themselves any more fundamentally desirable. It doesn't matter how confident Brian Peppers is, he's not going to get action from a girl without being registered as a sex offender. Oh wait, HE IS.


I agree that inborn characteristics can often set a kind of "upper-limit" on general desirability within a society, but some people are being held back partly by things they can change (which cause them to have trouble even with people at their "level".) Why did you assume that the original commenter (the one you made the wing-transplant comment to) wasn't just trying to fix problems caused by changeable behavior?
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