0513: "Friends"

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scwizard
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby scwizard » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:33 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
scwizard wrote:At least wait until he posts this list of "qualities that apparently make you fundamentally desirable" before banning him so we can laugh at that list later.
If only you had asked nicely.
If you don't post the list and back it up, then everything you said about how there's certain qualities that make you fundamentally desirable and how some people will never have those qualities no matter what, and people without those qualities will be very unlikely to find a partner, is invalid. For example quotes like:

FireZs wrote:Frankly, it's cruel to people to tell them that if they try hard enough, they can become attractive to the opposite sex when they simply are not.
Have zero weight if you don't post that list.
~= scwizard =~

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:56 pm UTC

scwizard wrote:
FireZs wrote:
scwizard wrote:At least wait until he posts this list of "qualities that apparently make you fundamentally desirable" before banning him so we can laugh at that list later.


If only you had asked nicely.

If you don't post the list and back up why it's true none of what you say has any weight.


The methods put forth in the ladder theory do not change the percentage of the population that finds a person desirable. That is my underlying point.

If you would like to argue that somehow ladder theory methods would beneficially change that percentage, I'm all ears. If you don't, then you agree with me.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby scwizard » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:06 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
scwizard wrote:
FireZs wrote:
scwizard wrote:At least wait until he posts this list of "qualities that apparently make you fundamentally desirable" before banning him so we can laugh at that list later.


If only you had asked nicely.

If you don't post the list and back up why it's true none of what you say has any weight.


The methods put forth in the ladder theory do not change the percentage of the population that finds a person desirable. That is my underlying point.

If you would like to argue that somehow ladder theory methods would beneficially change that percentage, I'm all ears. If you don't, then you agree with me.

I don't know about ladder theory, but methods exist for changing the percentage of the population that finds a person desirable. One such method is improving one's appearance.

EDIT: With my proceeding post(s?) deleted this can easily be taken out of context. I do not see forming a relationship as a numbers / probability game. I disagree with reducing it to that.
Last edited by scwizard on Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:30 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
~= scwizard =~

FireZs
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:11 pm UTC

scwizard wrote:For example quotes like:

FireZs wrote:Frankly, it's cruel to people to tell them that if they try hard enough, they can become attractive to the opposite sex when they simply are not.
Have zero weight if you don't post that list.


I don't need a list to illustrate that point. The fact is plainly obvious to anyone who thinks about it for a bit: there are people who are simply not attractive to the other sex. Imagine, if you will, a deformed horror of a human being, reeking of the most foul of odors, dragging his shriveling mass of a body across the floor as he makes squishy sucking sounds, and whose single motivation in life is to latch onto another human female and plant his seed within her womb.

You can't seriously tell me that if this person told you that he would prefer to get with Scarlett Johannsen, but someone equivalently hot would be fine as well, that it would not be an act of cruelty, that it would not be an act of idiocy to tell him "Oh yeah, go for it, you can definitely get a girl like that if you tried hard enough!"

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:14 pm UTC

scwizard wrote:I don't know about ladder theory, but methods exist for changing the percentage of the population that finds a person desirable. One such method is improving one's appearance.


Wow, you're pretty shallow. :D

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby moto_tx » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:20 pm UTC

jfpbookworm wrote:
moto_tx wrote:
jfpbookworm wrote:Yes, but "women don't care about looks as much as men" is just something men tell themselves because it's more comforting to think that attractiveness is due to factors that are, at least in theory, under their control.


No. Believing that nothing is under your control is something that men and women tell themselves because they don't want to put in the effort to change.


Right, because nobody ever put in any effort to look good. You'd think there'd be entire industries devoted to it or something.
But men don't believe that their looks matter, because they're conditioned to be the ones doing the looking, and because, honestly, FireZs is right insofar as there's only so much you can do to improve your appearance.


A lot of people *don't* put in any (or too little) effort to look good... and it is particularly prevalent in nerd culture.

Men's looks do matter. If you are too thin, bulk up. If you are too fat, slim down. Lift weights, get toned. It will all help. If you want to be attractive to more than nerd girls, learn more about fashion and stop wearing unix t-shirts.

There is indeed only so much you can do to improve your appearance... there have been studies (and indeed less scientific evidence) that shows a correlation between height and desirability. Short men are disadvantaged, and there isn't much you can do to fix that.

However, men's desirability also scales with things like confidence. So there are things you can do besides lift weights to attract more women. Though ideally you would do all of it.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby setzer777 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:27 pm UTC

moto_tx wrote:
Men's looks do matter. If you are too thin, bulk up. If you are too fat, slim down. Lift weights, get toned. It will all help. If you want to be attractive to more than nerd girls, learn more about fashion and stop wearing unix t-shirts.


I'm not sure thin is always bad for men. I've seen some who really pull it off well with the whole indie-rock look. I suppose that it's not to everyone's taste, but I think it can sometimes be better to be attractive to a "niche" market than to try to increase your generic attractiveness.
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moto_tx
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby moto_tx » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:31 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
moto_tx wrote:
Men's looks do matter. If you are too thin, bulk up. If you are too fat, slim down. Lift weights, get toned. It will all help. If you want to be attractive to more than nerd girls, learn more about fashion and stop wearing unix t-shirts.


I'm not sure thin is always bad for men. I've seen some who really pull it off well with the whole indie-rock look. I suppose that it's not to everyone's taste, but I think it can sometimes be better to be attractive to a "niche" market than to try to increase your generic attractiveness.


I agree, especially if you're only attracted to girls in that niche (like goth girls). You will need a different strategy if that is the case. As a life strategy though, maximizing for the most number of potential mates is ideal for me. :)

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ethraax
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ethraax » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:33 pm UTC

Am I the only one that thinks we're missing something by reducing forming a relationship to a numbers / probability game?
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:39 pm UTC

ethraax wrote:Am I the only one that thinks we're missing something by reducing forming a relationship to a numbers / probability game?


Well, it's not really a game, since there's not much you can do to change the probabilities.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby moto_tx » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
ethraax wrote:Am I the only one that thinks we're missing something by reducing forming a relationship to a numbers / probability game?


Well, it's not really a game, since there's not much you can do to change the probabilities.


Even if you think we're all genetically capped, do you not think that a lot of these guys have a far way to go before they will reach their cap? Why not encourage them to work on the things that they have control over?

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ethraax
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ethraax » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
ethraax wrote:Am I the only one that thinks we're missing something by reducing forming a relationship to a numbers / probability game?


Well, it's not really a game, since there's not much you can do to change the probabilities.


Part of me wants to argue that point, that lacking the ability to change something doesn't make it less of a game (Ever play "War", the card game?) And another part of me wants to quote this:

scwizard wrote:but methods exist for changing the percentage of the population that finds a person desirable. One such method is improving one's appearance.


I guess doing both would be best, since both ways of looking at it still seem to be missing the same thing.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Quixotess » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:45 pm UTC

ethraax wrote:Am I the only one that thinks we're missing something by reducing forming a relationship to a numbers / probability game?

No.

Thank you. Anyone else who feels the need to impart their own relationship advice, especially in absolutist terms which you all seem to love, can kindly go and experiment yourself on the nearest human to your liking, and specifically not post your findings here. This is a discussion about the comic. Anything further non-comic related will simply be deleted.
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mako
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mako » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:23 am UTC

jfpbookworm wrote:
If I'm not interested in them platonically, but like them as a friend and want to hang out: "I'm not interested in a date, but I wouldn't mind getting coffee/dinner sometime if you'd still like to." Typically, this gets the point across, but if it doesn't a flat-out "I'm not interested in you that way" might be necessary.

If I don't want to even interact non-platonically: "No thanks." The goal here is to not be insulting, but not be ambiguous either.


Hey, thanks for answering this. It's genuinely helpful.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby newhouseb » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:05 am UTC

hm, well in light of the previous post i'll try to tie what i was about to say in the previous comment...

ignoring the manipulative aspect of Nice Guy (which is bad), he's failing to recognize that the girl doesn't look at him that way, and will never look at him that way, and there's nothing he can do to manipulate her into liking him, because the people are people, not dogs. which is where i thought the ladder theory made a lot of sense... if you're on the friends ladder, making the jump to the not friends ladder will leave you falling into the endless void where you're nothing with to a given girl because you've betrayed her trust. sure the rest of the ladder theory is a load of BS, but i think that's a good takeaway. that's probably where this guy would have ended up if he acted on his lustful urges.

since everyone was saying how the ladder theory was misogynistic hopefully what i took out of is is the part that's not? it's so hard to tell anymore...

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby katyism » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:06 am UTC

I'm a little late with this, but I had to chime in as one of the girls this has "happened" to.

Best friend of 2 years, was there for all my bitching and whining about the guys I dated. Instant messaging about any and all things, day after day. I began to notice a pattern that I was the one always bitching and he was the one always consoling or coming to the rescue. One day while drinking at my house, on the couch, that exact kiss happened. Maybe a month later and relatively little talking later, sex and whatnot.

Now we're officially dating and have been for 6 months. The "I love you thing" came up. From him first (while drunk of course). I paused for way more than a tiny second. I paused for like a week and a half and THEN did I say I love him back.

But we both read this comic together in my room recently and had this amazingly pregnant pause... eeek. Now I wonder if he is as freaked out by this comic as I am. What if I really did just "settle for him" or he fears he "got me" all wrong?

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby SneakyMongo » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:00 am UTC

Withered Hope says she is his friend to the end,
But she doesn't like Very Sad Sack

Today Withered Hope saw the Very Sad Sack
And she tried not to meet his eyes
And he cut out a paper heart, pinned it to his arm
Gave her everything he was holding in his head
This is what he said:

Withered Hope, I'm in love with you
Want to live with you, Withered Hope
Are you going to say to me this can never be?
Are you going to say to me, Withered Hope?

-Withered Hope, TMBG
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mache-b123 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:25 am UTC

Well, well. Got sorta few hours since it's finals time. Read archives, and I've gotta say something I never thougt would say:

FUCK XKCD! FUCK YOU, RANDALL!

Calmed down. But still: fuck you, Randall, that is unfair. Just something like two weeks before got something almost exactly like that. Felt like shit, and still can't talk to her, looks like she blown away. Didn't expected it... fuck!

(BTW, too many profanities. Gotta stop trying to sleep while seeing Penn & Teller...)
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:46 pm UTC

katyism wrote:I'm a little late with this, but I had to chime in as one of the girls this has "happened" to.

Best friend of 2 years, was there for all my bitching and whining about the guys I dated. Instant messaging about any and all things, day after day. I began to notice a pattern that I was the one always bitching and he was the one always consoling or coming to the rescue. One day while drinking at my house, on the couch, that exact kiss happened. Maybe a month later and relatively little talking later, sex and whatnot.

Now we're officially dating and have been for 6 months. The "I love you thing" came up. From him first (while drunk of course). I paused for way more than a tiny second. I paused for like a week and a half and THEN did I say I love him back.

But we both read this comic together in my room recently and had this amazingly pregnant pause... eeek. Now I wonder if he is as freaked out by this comic as I am. What if I really did just "settle for him" or he fears he "got me" all wrong?


See? It works! Clearly the comic is worthy of emulation.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby aliosha » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:58 pm UTC

I read pp1-13, and p17, and I've got to admit that RM has done exceptionally! I think it takes talent to pick up that this sequence of events is so common, and then to present it in a concise way, and to put humour in. He appears to have got an awful lot of conversation/arguments going! And there are some veritable essays out there.

I also think that everyone on the thread agrees!

No, honestly, I do. Because all the people who say "this is a great plan, I do it all the time," are, I think, not considering the comic properly, and believe that the "Nice GuyTM is motivated by friendship. All the people who are going *facepalm* have swiftly realised that they are Nice GuysTM. And everyone else thinks that Nice GuysTM are not nice!

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby TaintedDeity » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:05 pm UTC

aliosha wrote:I read pp1-13, and p17, and I've got to admit that RM has done exceptionally! I think it takes talent to pick up that this sequence of events is so common, and then to present it in a concise way, and to put humour in. He appears to have got an awful lot of conversation/arguments going! And there are some veritable essays out there.

I also think that everyone on the thread agrees!

No, honestly, I do. Because all the people who say "this is a great plan, I do it all the time," are, I think, not considering the comic properly, and believe that the "Nice GuyTM is motivated by friendship. All the people who are going *facepalm* have swiftly realised that they are Nice GuysTM. And everyone else thinks that Nice GuysTM are not nice!

I think the main point the comic makes is that the protagonist isn't a nice guy.
He's a horrible, creepy, manipulative lurch and it's worrying the amount of people identifying with him oblivious to the fact that he's doing it wrong.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:21 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:I think the main point the comic makes is that the protagonist isn't a nice guy.
He's a horrible, creepy, manipulative lurch and it's worrying the amount of people identifying with him oblivious to the fact that he's doing it wrong.


Would you like to tell katyism that her relationship is wrong? That she's dating a jerk? That her boyfriend doesn't respect her?

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:33 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:I think the main point the comic makes is that the protagonist isn't a nice guy.


The secondary point it makes, though, is that anyone in real life who doesn't work up the courage to ask, or who doesn't immediately abandon a friendship after being rejected, is just like the "protagonist" of this comic. That's what people are criticizing

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

Another Mod wrote:Thank you. Anyone else who feels the need to impart their own relationship advice, especially in absolutist terms which you all seem to love, can kindly go and experiment yourself on the nearest human to your liking, and specifically not post your findings here. This is a discussion about the comic. Anything further non-comic related will simply be deleted.


What he said? It didn't suddenly stop applying. Just in case anyone on the "Alpha, Beta, Kappa, Eye, Snake, Squiggly Line" conversation path is wondering where their posts went (if your posts are still here, carry on).
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They/them

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Vladamar » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:35 pm UTC

Well, just though I'd share how this comic helped me get the most amazing girl.

This Saturday (the 6th) I went with a friend to his girlfriends dorm room, and hung out awhile there. Then her neighbor comes out of the room and my mouth just about hit the floor, I was so taken aback. At this point it was 11 o' clock, and we just all started chatting. We talked about everything. Childhood stories, fears, politics, hell, I even showed her this comic. Before I knew it, it was already 1:45 am. We parted ways for the night, and I could hardly sleep the rest of the night, just thinking about her.

I woke up the next morning feeling slightly better than I should have. After making some Ramen noodles (nom nom nom) I checked my Facebook. She had added me as a friend (woot!). Accept the friend invitation, and turns out she is online. I literally spent 2/3rd of Sunday talking to her on Facebook, and by the end, I had asked her if she wanted to come to John Perkin's presentation that he was giving on my campus Monday night. She said yes, and it was a date.

I arrived early and bought both of us a ticket, even though she told me not to get her one (I lied, said I just got them super cheap from someone who accidentally got extra). We took our seats on the bleachers, and spent almost the entire presentation catching sideways glances at each other, discussing things that were said, and commenting how awesome the 'words' that the sign language person was doing. I don't think I remember a single thing about the presentation, but I can remember everything we talked about.

Walking back, I was still too much of the nice guy to take her hand (at this point, I'm almost positive she would have gladly given it). By the time we got to the top of the hill where I should split off to head to my dorm, I made an excuse to head back to her room instead (needed to get a signature of someone in her building). Got up to her room, and my neighbor was there with his girlfriend as well, right across from her room. Perfect excuse to stay awhile and chat it up. This time, however, she would always sit next to me, no matter where I sat in the room. By this time, I had a pretty good idea about her feelings for me. We reluctantly said goodbye at 11:15, feeling that much closer (Stupid 8 am Physics).

And now it was Tuesday. I did my usual morning routine. Woke up at 7:35 for my for 8 o' clock physics. Afterwords, took a shower and then did something out of normal. I went to Facebook again right away. Now normally, I don't spend much time on Facebook. I check if I have any messages, missed any friends birthdays, generally make sure life is good for everyone. This time, however, I just stayed on Facebook. I didn't want a miss a single chance I had of talking to her. She came on at around 11 am, and again, we started chatting it up. We joked, flirted, and talked about just about anything. Honestly, I was actually sad when I had to go to my 2 - 5 pm film class. All during the class all I wanted to do was get out to talk with her again. Thankfully, class got out an hour and a half early (yay lazy teacher!), and I rushed back to check if she was online. She wasn't right away, so I started my physics homework, and two problems in, she was back online again.

This time we talked about music, and I started making a Facebook music playlist (didn't have one before). Put lots of my favorite music on it, and we found we enjoyed a lot of the same artists and songs. She left to go to dinner at 6, and I was still on my second problem of physics. Got about 10 problems done, and she was back. Again, we talked about everything, and I found myself telling her things that I have literally never told anyone before. I opened up about thing that I didn't even know could be talked about. It was 7:15 when my neighbor came in and asked if I had eaten yet; I had completely forgotten, and the cafeteria was due to close soon, so I said my temporary goodbyes to her and got some food, came back, decided I should REALLY do my physics. Finished my physics. Corrected my neighbors paper and helped him with some of his math, and got back on Facebook at around 10:15. She had written on my wall 2 minutes earlier, "So I'm online and you aren't... I'm lost! What am I supposed to do now?? :(" Well, can't deny her of some talk, can I? Again we chatted, but this time, it was more personal. I think we both were skirting around the idea of us entering a relationship. We talked about how we are both shy, but we know we shouldn't be. When it rolled around to being 11:15 again, and my roommate was bugging me to go to sleep, I left her with a quote that I had liked that came from earlier in this thread (was very on topic of what we were discussing at the time). The quote was, "Meek acceptance of the misfortunes of existence makes no sense to me." (Thanks Steroid!). Quickly discussed what I thought it meant, where I had hear it, and said goodnight. Was I was signing off I saw her last message, "hold on, what does that have to do with us?".

So I took it to text messaging while I lay in bed (I HATE text messaging). Sent her one saying I was sorry I left so fast, and that I hoped she was having fun thinking about that quote. She replied saying she had looked it up and read the comic again. To which I relied something along the lines of don't even get me started on how long I thought about that comic. She sent back, and I quote, "It's right though. What could have happened if he just would have asked her out right away? They could have been perfect together." At this point, I was seriously the only person in the world still doubting what she had basically just laid me up perfect for. And do not doubt how long I laid there trying to convince myself that she hadn't on purpose. I really did not want to ask her out in a text message, but I would have been 100% unable to sleep that entire night, and was worried she would have just been waiting for a response the whole night too, so I wrote. The next text was the single text that has taken me the longest and most thought to write in my life. Finally, I ended up with, "I have a crush on you" and then took me 10 minutes to actually send (which by the way, really sucks when your phone has gone into that little power saver mode, so when you press send, it actually just lights it up, and doesn't send it, so you're like oh my god I did it. Oh wait, I didn't).

Is it possible for your heart to not beat for 10 minutes?

Then I felt the phone vibrate. Took me a moment to get the courage to open it, but hell, I was already this far, so I read it. "i have a crush on you too. 6 mins for my hear to stop being so fast."

:D :D :D

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby TaintedDeity » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:40 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
TaintedDeity wrote:I think the main point the comic makes is that the protagonist isn't a nice guy.
He's a horrible, creepy, manipulative lurch and it's worrying the amount of people identifying with him oblivious to the fact that he's doing it wrong.


Would you like to tell katyism that her relationship is wrong? That she's dating a jerk? That her boyfriend doesn't respect her?

No, that would be silly.
I don't know her, I don't know her boyfriend and neither of them starred in this comic.
The guy in this comic is horrible, and identifying with him without realising how horrible he is or noticing you might want to change is scary.

Also, Random makes a good point, people should look at this comic and if they recognise themselves they should try to change or at least rethink their ideas.

Good to see the comic had a positive effect, Vladamar
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:47 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
TaintedDeity wrote:I think the main point the comic makes is that the protagonist isn't a nice guy.


The secondary point it makes, though, is that anyone in real life who doesn't work up the courage to ask, or who doesn't immediately abandon a friendship after being rejected, is just like the "protagonist" of this comic. That's what people are criticizing


Not really. It's okay to take time to work up the courage. It's okay to take rejection in stride and remain friends.

Neither of which the main character did: he never asked, he waited for her to have a "moment of weakness"

It's not really okay to pretend at friendship in the hopes that maybe this person will someday just happen to feel like dating you. Especially if you're going to be all indignant when they don't.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:54 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:No, that would be silly.
I don't know her, I don't know her boyfriend and neither of them starred in this comic.
The guy in this comic is horrible, and identifying with him without realising how horrible he is or noticing you might want to change is scary.

Also, Random makes a good point, people should look at this comic and if they recognise themselves they should try to change or at least rethink their ideas.

Good to see the comic had a positive effect, Vladamar


Well, katyism's boyfriend appears to have gone through the same series of behaviors that the guy in the comic did. Most people here who identify with the comic identify with the actions but not necessarily the motivations. You're basically saying all these people, because their actions are similar, that their motivations must be just as evil, which is why I asked you if you thought this applied in katyism's boyfriend's case.

I stand by my (way) earlier point: that the guy in the comic isn't evil, he's pathetic, and the only reason he is pathetic is because he failed. If he succeeded, who are you to question the girl's choice?

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby korbels » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:03 pm UTC

Vladamar your success is uplifting! Good job!

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mythago » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:21 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:I stand by my (way) earlier point: that the guy in the comic isn't evil, he's pathetic, and the only reason he is pathetic is because he failed. If he succeeded, who are you to question the girl's choice?


So if the guy in the comic had simply tried to slip the woman a roofie to have sex with her, in your mind, would it only be pathetic if he failed? If choice is necessary, would it be OK if he threatened to kill her if she didn't go out with him? (Why not? Who are you to question her choice?)

After all, you seem to be judging whether or not behavior is OK based on whether it gets a man something he wants and how he gets that is kind of irrelevant. Using that standard, violence is acceptable, as is taking the element of choice away entirely. Only failure is pathetic.

Oh, and yes, I'm happy to tell katysim that based on what she's posted here, she should dump her boyfriend. At her age there are plenty of fish in the sea, and one who is a manipulative jerk who can't say "I love you" unless he's tanked is just taking up your valuable time.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:37 pm UTC

mythago wrote:So if the guy in the comic had simply tried to slip the woman a roofie to have sex with her, in your mind, would it only be pathetic if he failed? If choice is necessary, would it be OK if he threatened to kill her if she didn't go out with him? (Why not? Who are you to question her choice?)

After all, you seem to be judging whether or not behavior is OK based on whether it gets a man something he wants and how he gets that is kind of irrelevant. Using that standard, violence is acceptable, as is taking the element of choice away entirely. Only failure is pathetic.


No, rape and violence is obviously wrong, not to mention highly illegal. The comic isn't about either, or even close to it, especially since he doesn't force her to do anything (indeed, his weakness would prevent him from doing anything like that), and she always has the freedom to choose as she pleases. If the ending was that the girl said yes, and they are both happy, who are you to judge? If he went through with this plan and it worked, he would just be a nice guy who ended up with the girl he loves.

Oh, and yes, I'm happy to tell katysim that based on what she's posted here, she should dump her boyfriend. At her age there are plenty of fish in the sea, and one who is a manipulative jerk who can't say "I love you" unless he's tanked is just taking up your valuable time.


See, here's the irony. You sound like the pathetic "friend" in the comic. "BUT HE DOESN'T RESPECT YOU!"

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:50 pm UTC

How does the girl's ability to choose negate his duplicitous, manipulative intent, again?

And why would being a successful duplicitous manipulator make you not a duplicitous manipulator?

Also, saying "but he doesn't respect you" in reference to someone else's romantic choices is only ironic if you're contending that you do. Which the main character is implicitly doing, but mythago is not. So there's nothing really contradictory there.

And even then it's only trivially ironic. What really deepens the irony in the comic is his desire to basically manipulate her into the choice that serves him, with little regard to what she wants, not just his act of questioning or disagreeing with her choices.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:23 pm UTC

Belial wrote:How does the girl's ability to choose negate his duplicitous, manipulative intent, again?

And why would being a successful duplicitous manipulator make you not a duplicitous manipulator?

Also, saying "but he doesn't respect you" in reference to someone else's romantic choices is only ironic if you're contending that you do. Which the main character is implicitly doing, but mythago is not. So there's nothing really contradictory there.

And even then it's only trivially ironic. What really deepens the irony in the comic is his desire to basically manipulate her into the choice that serves him, with little regard to what she wants, not just his act of questioning or disagreeing with her choices.


It doesn't negate it. But here's the thing: people are calling this guy a jerk, while the other jerk she ends up with, no matter how bad he may be, is deemed to be guarranteed to be better than this jerk. Does that make any sense? Is he guarranteed to be better, even if he beats her? Even if abuses her, cheats on her, and otherwise hurts her, even if he hold just as manipulative of an agenda as our friendjerk does? People in this thread are saying "yes, he's far better, he's the jerk we want her to be with." Well, the only difference here, in terms of observable actions, is that jerkjerk was successful, while friendjerk was not.

We tell the friendjerk that he should respect the girl's decision to date jerkjerks and leave her alone, but do we tell the jerkjerk the same thing should she choose the friendjerk? Friendjerk is distraught because the girl has chosen the "wrong kind of guy", just as mythago is distraught that katyism has chosen the "wrong kind of guy." That's the irony, that so many in this thread are trying to dictate who women should and should not date, while condemning the very practice when it comes from the "wrong kind of guy."

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby TaintedDeity » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:28 pm UTC

Until this point I'd forgotten that the 'jerk' was even in the comic at all.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:29 pm UTC

Friendjerk is distraught because the girl has chosen the "wrong kind of guy", just as mythago is distraught that katyism has chosen the "wrong kind of guy." That's the irony, that so many in this thread are trying to dictate who women should and should not date, while condemning the very practice when it comes from the "wrong kind of guy."


Friendjerk is distraught because she didn't choose him. Which is the difference. He has a proverbial horse in the race, his "concern" isn't concern. It's not about what she wants, or what's best for her, it's about what he wants. Unless mythago is angling to get into katyism's pants (and katyism: I hear he doesn't respect you, you may want to steer clear :P), your comparison falls flat.

And I apparently missed the part where Jerkjerk is apparently 100% better across the board. He's better in that he's actually being direct (presumably), but nothing else about him is said.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:41 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Friendjerk is distraught because she didn't choose him. Which is the difference. He has a proverbial horse in the race, his "concern" isn't concern. It's not about what she wants, or what's best for her, it's about what he wants. Unless mythago is angling to get into katyism's pants (and katyism: I hear he doesn't respect you, you may want to steer clear :P), your comparison falls flat.


The motivations may appear to be different, but they are actually similar in that they are both not what they claim to be. The friendjerk tells himself that he has her best interests at heart, when in reality he's motivated by selfishness, while mythago may tell himself that he's acting out of genuine concern for katyism, but in reality, he's acting out of arrogance, because how could he know anything about her situation, especially since she never asked for his opinion? (And if you say I'm arrogant too, at least I know I'm arrogant; I can be the jerkjerk in this scenario :) ). If it's really about what she wants, then stop telling her what she should want, and respect her decision.

And I apparently missed the part where Jerkjerk is apparently 100% better across the board. He's better in that he's actually being direct (presumably), but nothing else about him is said.


Well, I say that whatever the girl chooses, it's her decision, and we should respect that. Doesn't matter if it's the friendjerk or the jerkjerk.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:53 pm UTC

while mythago may tell himself that he's acting out of genuine concern for katyism, but in reality, he's acting out of arrogance, because how could he know anything about her situation?


Mmm. Possibly. At the same time, he might never have spoken if you hadn't forced the issue by insisting that anyone who commented on the character in the comic had to also be commenting on katyism's boyfriend. I seem to remember (and by "remember" I mean "look back in my reply window") that TaintedDeity tried to beg out of answering the question you posed with that exact reasoning: he doesn't know her situation.

Well, I say that whatever the girl chooses, it's her decision, and we should respect that. Doesn't matter if it's the friendjerk or the jerkjerk.


And I agree. Her choice is her choice. That doesn't change in the slightest the fact that friendjerk is being a shitty person.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:09 pm UTC

Another problem (and a further reason that the guy in the comic does not exist and therefore the comic is either totally disconnected from reality or is an allegorical attack on some group of people who do exist) is that he apparently is psychic and therefore KNOWS that the girl would only choose to be with him in "a moment of weakness" and would never be truly happy with him.

It's telling people "If you're too shy to say what your feelings are, YOU ARE THIS GUY because you might end up together anyway and you won't know if she would have been 'truly happy' (so says I) with you therefore you must assume she would not and GET AWAY if you can't work up the courage to ask." That is the message the comic is sending. Not that "this guy is an asshole", because that's a pretty useless message because A) "this guy" doesn't exist and B) if he did we wouldn't need the comic's help to know he's an asshole.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:10 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Mmm. Possibly. At the same time, he might never have spoken if you hadn't forced the issue by insisting that anyone who commented on the character in the comic had to also be commenting on katyism's boyfriend. I seem to remember (and by "remember" I mean "look back in my reply window") that TaintedDeity tried to beg out of answering the question you posed with that exact reasoning: he doesn't know her situation.

And I agree. Her choice is her choice. That doesn't change in the slightest the fact that friendjerk is being a shitty person.


Which brings me to what I was getting to in my exchange with TaintedDeity: Is the comic even useful at all? Or is it just propaganda designed to get us to hate, or at least be suspicious of guys who befriend girls, then later on become their boyfriend? We don't know the motivations of these people, but it's tempting to see the connection between the actions of these people and those of friendjerk. But in real life we would never know if they were motivated by manipulative plans or not. The successes would be hard to condemn, because we should respect the girl's choice, so it's the failures that we link to this comic and project the image of this friendjerk upon the many posters in this thread, when in reality we don't know their motivations any better. Hence "the only difference is one is successful and the other is not," because really, we don't know, and we're just giving into this convincing propaganda of what their motivations might have been.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:19 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Which brings me to what I was getting to in my exchange with TaintedDeity: Is the comic even useful at all? Or is it just propaganda designed to get us to hate, or at least be suspicious of guys who befriend girls, then later on become their boyfriend?


Well, as for what it's designed to do, which is to say, authorial intent...

If I had to guess, Randy intended it as a message not to be like that guy.

But authorial intent is ultimately meaningless (anyone who's talked to me about literature saw that one coming). So, what meaning do I see in the comic?

Pretty much the same thing, really. It seems pretty straightforward. This guy is behaving in a shitty underhanded manner. Don't fall into this behavioural trap. Don't be like this guy.

Random832 wrote:Another problem (and a further reason that the guy in the comic does not exist and therefore the comic is either totally disconnected from reality or is an allegorical attack on some group of people who do exist) is that he apparently is psychic and therefore KNOWS that the girl would only choose to be with him in "a moment of weakness" and would never be truly happy with him.


Not necessarily. She could also just choose him in a clear state, as a fully conscious choice. But the scenario in which she chooses him in a "moment of weakness" is the only scenario for which the "nice guy" approach is preferable to him. As he said, he could ask her out, and if she said yes, that would obviously be preferable. Both people get what they want and everyone is happy forever hooray.

So the reason the nice guy approach is preferred by the character is because he prefers getting her to fall for him in a moment of weakness to the possibility of her saying "no". It doesn't require being psychic to run that assessment.
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