0244: "Tabletop Roleplaying"

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Belial
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Postby Belial » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:14 pm UTC

I don't think they *can* be turned inside out.
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Postby Ronfar » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:17 pm UTC

Oddly enough, there exists a video game series in which you play as a person playing an MMORPG. On another message board, there were people discussing using the ./hack world as a campaign setting, with the "real life" adventures being run using Shadowrun rules and having the MMORPG they play be run using D&D. So you have characters roleplaying other characters, and what they do in the "fantasy MMORPG" affects their real life (through computer viruses, AIs, and such) and vice versa.
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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:23 pm UTC

They can be turned inside out, but you have to push from the outside.

Code: Select all

|_|
 ^
apply force here

but all the stuff falls out and you have to turn it the right way in again before the magic works again.
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Postby Jesse » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:39 pm UTC

I've seen the first ten or so episodes of .hack and it is pretty good but it goes so slowly I forgot to keep watching.

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Postby bbctol » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:46 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Placing a miniature version on the side of a bag of holding would....do something horrible, I'm sure, since you'd be superimposing the extradimensional space onto an extradimensional space.

As I remember, it eats everything it touches, on the inside or outside. In essence, a bad idea.

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Postby Your.Master » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:51 pm UTC

No. Invariant mass does not change, and the conditions for forming black holes are not that simple. In its own frame of reference the rock is inertially moving, remember? There is no reason why it would suddenly collapse into a singularity.


Ah, my apologies, I've long since forgotten what I knew of the mechanics of black hole formation.

The rock isn't exactly in an inertial frame, but I see the point. Relative to the rock, the Earth will certainly seem like it's zooming in towards it repeatedly until it hits the lower gate and ends up at the one further from the Earth. Thus, from the rock's frame, can we expect the Earth's apparent gravitational influence to change?

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Postby WhiteWizard42 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:57 pm UTC

still trying to figure out weird stuff to do with a pair of teleport rings:

if i stick my arm through one, does it come out the other end before i'm fully through? for example, could i have one positioned on a wall, and put my arm through the other and scratch that one place on my back i can't for the life of me reach?

also, even if the rings are the same size, you could still put almost half of it through (by turning it sideways) until you reach the point where the diameter of one approaches that of the other? i don't think i'm explaining too well, but maybe i conveyed my through to someone. it still leads to a ring trying to fall through itself.

how is it decided which direction stuff comes out of the ring in? with the infinite tube example from before, what's to stop it from falling into the bottom ring and going up out of the top ring? it would then reach the top of its arc, come back down, and go through the teleport and out the top of the bottom ring, then fall back and repeat forever, were it not for air resistance.
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Postby cmacis » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:02 pm UTC

I think we need to play with cameras and the screen showing the picture for a while to get our heads around these conundrums. That, and it's fun pointing my webcam at my screen.
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Postby Belial » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:02 pm UTC

if i stick my arm through one, does it come out the other end before i'm fully through? for example, could i have one positioned on a wall, and put my arm through the other and scratch that one place on my back i can't for the life of me reach?


Yes.

also, even if the rings are the same size, you could still put almost half of it through (by turning it sideways) until you reach the point where the diameter of one approaches that of the other? i don't think i'm explaining too well, but maybe i conveyed my through to someone. it still leads to a ring trying to fall through itself.


Yeah, that's true...I think, as long as you didn't get it all the way through, though, it would just result in some wierd refraction on anything you tried to shove through the joined rings

how is it decided which direction stuff comes out of the ring in? with the infinite tube example from before, what's to stop it from falling into the bottom ring and going up out of the top ring? it would then reach the top of its arc, come back down, and go through the teleport and out the top of the bottom ring, then fall back and repeat forever, were it not for air resistance.


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Postby CaptainJuan » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:17 pm UTC

I just have to tell you all that this is the most ridiculously awesome thread I've ever read. I LOVE THE INTERNET.
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Postby apricity » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:19 pm UTC

CaptainJuan wrote:I just have to tell you all that this is the most ridiculously awesome thread I've ever read. I LOVE THE INTERNET.


But the internet doesn't like you. :(
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Postby A neutral shade of black. » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:35 pm UTC

Belial wrote:It is. Requires a 10th level caster. Which I would hope you *have* if you're *blowing up the world*.


I thought the whole point of the exercise was to find ways of blowing the world up with the lowest possible level characters?

We need another thread for that, don't we?
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Postby Belial » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:40 pm UTC

I thought the whole point of the exercise was to find ways of blowing the world up with the lowest possible level characters?

We need another thread for that, don't we?


In that case, just pay for scrolls.

Then you can do it as a 1st level wizard.
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Postby A neutral shade of black. » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:56 pm UTC

Belial wrote:In that case, just pay for scrolls.

Then you can do it as a 1st level wizard.


But that's nowhere near as fun as building a doomsday device from common goods and +1 magic items!
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Postby Belial » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:58 pm UTC

True. I'm not resourceful enough to manage that, though. +1 items are just...really sharp. If you can destroy the world with a kindof sharp knife and a good suit of chain mail, I'm suitably impressed.
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Postby Pau! » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:12 pm UTC

I once played a zombie roleplaying game where we were playing ourselves, and it started off with us in our current location, playing a zombie roleplaying game.

In theory, it was simple to decide what to do, but it still blew my mind trying to decide what to do, as... me? I do not know myself :(

Recursion is confusing.
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Postby Akira » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:13 pm UTC

I bet MacGuyver could, if he were inclined towards the much more entertaining persuit of evil.
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Postby miakoda » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:16 pm UTC

Wow. I've been reading the comic for months and never thought to look at the forums. And what a thread to start with ...! D&D, eXistenz, 13th Floor, farcasters, .//hack ... I think I like this place!

I'm not a fan of the .//hack series, but I do love the games. I just finished the first disc of the second series a couple days ago. And I'm also in a recursive tabletop game at the moment -- it's slightly futuristic setting; our meta characters are Mages (WoD 2ed) using a VR system to access portal worlds. The Big Bad seems to be a Bane/Artificial Intelligence hybrid trying to work itself out of the VR and into the "real world."

Oh yeah ... and hi, everyone. :D

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Postby Belial » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:23 pm UTC

That actually seems like a pretty entertaining chronicle.
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Postby Akira » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:31 pm UTC

what, .hack?

I recall that i absolutely adored .hack//sign when it was on.. oh, cartoon network, i think. I watched msot of the series. I was going to borrow the game from a firend, but we moved before i had the chance.

I want to get back into it. It was interesting. My brother has the manga .hack//twilight, which is pretty good, too.

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Postby Belial » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:35 pm UTC

I actually meant the recursive mage game, but I've heard very good things about .hack//sign and the .hack games. I've heard that the other .hack cartoon series are all kindof crap though.
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Postby Jesse » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:39 pm UTC

I am disappointed, I went back to watch the rest of .hack\\sign on the Internet, but it is no longer on the site I use :(

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Postby Akira » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC

Ah. XD



I personally loved the concept of the series -- that these are all characters playing a game--although their actions in the game ae the main story, in .hack, when Tsubasa(?) was trapped in the game, his player was in a coma int he outside world I beleive... it was interesting.
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Postby Arturion » Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:06 am UTC

Belial wrote:True. I'm not resourceful enough to manage that, though. +1 items are just...really sharp. If you can destroy the world with a kindof sharp knife and a good suit of chain mail, I'm suitably impressed.


Sigged.

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Postby miakoda » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:09 am UTC

miakoda wrote:I'm not a fan of the .//hack series, but I do love the games.


Er ... just to clarify my own comment, I meant I'm not much of a fan of the anime series, but I love the games. Yeesh. I like plenty of other anime, just not what I saw of the .//hack ones.

The second series of games (.//hack:GU) has a similar concept: it's 10 or so years later, and they've relased a new version of the MMORPG called "The World". In the game, there's a PK in the in "The World" that's using a creepy zombified version of the Kite character avatar from the first series to go after certain characters; when it PKs, it drains the data from the characters, and their players go into a coma. I like the new twists and turns on it though, and finding out what happened to the characters from series 1 is like getting shiny prezzies on my birthday...

Belial, re: your sig. ... I just finished re-reading Lucifer TPBs 1 & 2 a couple of weeks ago. Elaine does have a point, doesn't she... :)

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Postby Vaniver » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:30 am UTC

Pun-pun could *ruin* your attempts to destroy the world. But, that's pretty much a given.
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Postby Belial » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:48 am UTC

Belial, re: your sig. ... I just finished re-reading Lucifer TPBs 1 & 2 a couple of weeks ago. Elaine does have a point, doesn't she... Smile


Well, yeah. Especially with *her* experience with adults, Angelic and Mortal both. Her dad did have a point though. "Yes, he does keep his word, it's a point of pride for him. Don't mistake it for a virtue" (probably not an exact quote)
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Postby Animos » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:02 am UTC

Wouldn't the number of possible recursive games be bounded by the number of players due to the fact that one character would have to act as DM for each meta-game? Unless the DM could play non-player characters as additional players? Would the original players have to roll for initiative to determine their characters' order for doing tasks that their character's character wouldn't need initiative order for? Could the original players roll for attacks of opportunity in order for their characters to attempt to interrupt another player's character when that player's character tries to explain to the player playing the character playing the DM a battle plan the other characters would think is bad? Would it be possible for the players to play their characters in character and have their character roll a race/class different from the original characters? Surely their character would think themselves the best character for their playstyle.

So many questions...
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Re: "recursion" is no word

Postby Pathway » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:26 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Assuming you surmount those two problems.....generally, that kind of spacial "issue" is resolved in D&D by causing horrible destruction. Shoving a bag of holding (extradimensional space in a bag) into a portable hole tends to cause explosions on the ethereal plane, and a complete destruction of both items. I imagine that's what would happen here.


Yeah, you have a point, but that's much less fun than figuring out what would happen if the rings were just physics-based, rather than DnD magic-based.

LE4dGOLEM wrote:Are me and Belial the only ones here who know anything beyond the most basic mechanics?


DnD mechanics? Or physics? If the latter, then no, you're not the only ones. If you're talking about DnD knowledge, it's kind of misleading to call an aspect of something as niche as DnD basic.

Animos wrote:Surely their character would think themselves the best character for their playstyle.


Yep, just like humans always choose to play humans in DnD. Wait...

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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:54 am UTC

A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Belial wrote:It is. Requires a 10th level caster. Which I would hope you *have* if you're *blowing up the world*.


I thought the whole point of the exercise was to find ways of blowing the world up with the lowest possible level characters?

We need another thread for that, don't we?


I've seen theory of a level 13 (I think it was a wizard) killing the tarrasque (for the uninitiated: tarrasque ~ godzilla)
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Postby rwald » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:58 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:Pun-pun could *ruin* your attempts to destroy the world. But, that's pretty much a given.

The Omniscificer could also stop you, one level earlier than Pun-pun! (The Omniscificer is a character built with standard D&D rules which, at level 4, has literally infinite knowledge. Including knowing how you plan to destroy the world and how to stop you.)

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Postby A neutral shade of black. » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:40 am UTC

LE4dGOLEM wrote:I've seen theory of a level 13 (I think it was a wizard) killing the tarrasque (for the uninitiated: tarrasque ~ godzilla)


More like Godzilla using godmode, yes. It can't be killed; only kept in a state that precludes combat, last I checked. And yeah, I also heard about that one.

Oh, you want a fun one? This is under the principle that widespread anarchy, misery and death resulting from the collapse of the world's entire economy is an acceptable stand-in for world destruction (I personally don't think so, but that's me). Read below:

There's a spell out there called Flesh to Salt, which turns anything made out of flesh (any type of flesh) into the equivalent weight in salt.

Now do the following: purchase a cow for however much a cow costs (easily purchasable with level 1 starting gold). Obtain a way of casting Flesh to Salt. Cast Flesh to Salt on the cow. Calculate the price of 1150 lbs. of salt in a world where spice is still a sign of financial wealth. Develop a career as a merchant. Profit.

Buy a herd of cows. Obtain multiple ways of casting Flesh to Salt. Calculate the price of an entire herd of cow in salt in said world. Go international. Profit.

You can either repeat until the economy collapses (due to selling luxury goods in high quantity at record-low prices), or buy some astral travelling gear and go interplanar.


Amusing, no?

rwald wrote:The Omniscificer


I can't believe I just read that.
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Postby Belial » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:39 pm UTC

More like Godzilla using godmode, yes. It can't be killed; only kept in a state that precludes combat, last I checked.


It *can* be killed, but you basically have to beat it until it's "dead" and then use "wish" to wish all of the damage permanent so that it's actually *dead*.

Or something like that.
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Postby entropomorphic » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:39 pm UTC

scwizard wrote:Draining the ocean. Ya that's pretty much it. Stuff goes in one side and magically comes out the other.


For added effect, put the other ring on a cord and give it to a female party member as an "Amulet of Purity" or some such.

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Postby D. Wolfwood » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:51 pm UTC

Jesster wrote:I've seen the first ten or so episodes of .hack and it is pretty good but it goes so slowly I forgot to keep watching.


I found the Anime to be all right, as long as you can keep up, but the Games, ugh. It executed the "Your in an MMO. Go." concept well, but it was impossible to play unless you
1) Started from the first game, and carried over all of your EXP and items over.
2) Had an extreme tolerance for monotony. ALL THE DUNGEONS WERE THE SAME.

Even worse, there was an infinite number of dungeons across the servers with the keyword system. Dont get me wrong, I loved that Idea, but the though of having to go though so many dungeons and collect keywords pushed me away.

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Postby Vaniver » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:21 pm UTC

The Omniscificer is a character built with standard D&D rules which, at level 4, has literally infinite knowledge. Including knowing how you plan to destroy the world and how to stop you.
But, this assumes that Pun-pun is stoppable.

The Omniscificer might very well get the result "we have no option but despair" on his knowledge check.
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Postby Vandole » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:47 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:The Omniscificer might very well get the result "we have no option but despair" on his knowledge check.


Not really. He should be theoretically able to glean knowledge of the Sarrukh and the Pun-pun exploit in general, know things that would otherwise be meta-knowledge, and petition a deity (using his infinite ability scores to convince them, and infinite performing ability to summon them) to bury the knowledge of the Sarrukh, or to disrupt the mechanism behind Pun-pun's plans in a different manner. The only way the Omniscificer would be unable to stop a Pun-pun is if he started late (and a Pun-pun had already ascended to near infinite power), or the player somehow wasted his abilities and allowed himself to die.
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Postby fynch » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:33 am UTC

All of this recursion reminds me of a Hal Holbrook clip I saw. He was playing Samuel Clemens playing Mark Twain (Who is as much of a character as Stephen Colbert is today) doing a reading Huck Finn talking about (In character) Huck's Pap quoting someone.


If that made sense.






Discuss.

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Postby Patashu » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:36 am UTC

A neutral shade of black. wrote:
LE4dGOLEM wrote:I've seen theory of a level 13 (I think it was a wizard) killing the tarrasque (for the uninitiated: tarrasque ~ godzilla)


More like Godzilla using godmode, yes. It can't be killed; only kept in a state that precludes combat, last I checked.


You can use a wish to kill it off for good once it's unconscious.

Or you could just dump it some place where it will never be able to wake again. "The Tarrasque regenerates! The Tarrasque can't breathe! The Tarrasque drowns!"

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Postby Akira » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:39 am UTC

Surely there are bottomless pits somewhere you can dump it in?
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