0246: "Labyrinth Puzzle"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
Puellus Peregrinus
Sazl. Eliuo Sazl.
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Tampere, Finland

Postby Puellus Peregrinus » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:14 pm UTC

Hmm... a new approach:

1)"Have you ever had sex with a cockroach?" Hopefully this question helps to eliminate the liar so that the rest is not very complicated.

williamager wrote:(by the way, does your name mean what you intend it to mean?)
At least I hope it does :wink: This is one of the few fora where you can get caught misspelling Latin :lol:

EDIT: The stabber is clearly the one in the middle. Just look at him!
Romanes eunt domus!

User avatar
cmacis
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:22 pm UTC
Location: Leeds or Bradford, Thessex
Contact:

Postby cmacis » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:22 pm UTC

Yep, look at the post count for XKCD. Also see the shock and wonder whenever xkcd posts in the fora.
li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su'i pa du li no
Mathematician is a function mapping tea onto theorems. Sadly this function is irreversible.
QED is Latin for small empty box.
Ceci n’est pas une [s]pipe[/s] signature.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:24 pm UTC

Pretty much. He mostly just occasionally asks me if there's anything going on that he should know about.

I never mentioned the ender joke or any labyrinth jokeage.

He also expresses paranoia that I'm transcribing things about him that he doesn't want people to know, and posting them to the fora.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
joeythehobo
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:22 pm UTC
Location: California
Contact:

I say nay.

Postby joeythehobo » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:27 pm UTC

D. Wolfwood wrote:The stabbity guard only does what he does when he is asked a tricky question. So, if my logic is correct, you should be able to ask him a straightforward question like "Are you the stabbity guard?" Without fear of the blade touching your innar-parts. Plus, assuming that the stabbity guard tells the truth, you could ask the same question to all 3 and Identify everyone.


actually, that would only allow you to determine the stabby guard and the liar as a pair (They both reply 'yes'), and the one truth-teller (He replies 'no'). So you technically wouldn't have ID'd them all, but you did get enough information to hypothetically continue onward in the labyrinth, to nowhere in this case.
-Because, really, the only difference between martyrdom and suicide is the amount of press coverage-

User avatar
cmacis
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:22 pm UTC
Location: Leeds or Bradford, Thessex
Contact:

Postby cmacis » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:28 pm UTC

So if we talk about him more he'll come and look? Or will the comics just get paranoid. :?
li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su'i pa du li no

Mathematician is a function mapping tea onto theorems. Sadly this function is irreversible.

QED is Latin for small empty box.

Ceci n’est pas une [s]pipe[/s] signature.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:34 pm UTC

One of those.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

ekim
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:40 pm UTC
Location: Seattle

Postby ekim » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:59 pm UTC

What's the simplest single question that identifies someone who isn't the stabby guard that we can ask complicated questions?

If we want to spend two questions on this, then it has already been pointed out that it's fine to just say "are you the stabby guard?" "are you the stabby guard?", but maybe it's doable with one.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:17 pm UTC

It was never specified that they had to be yes/no questions, or that they could only be directed to one guard.

"Who here is the stabby guard?"

Got it in one.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
cmacis
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:22 pm UTC
Location: Leeds or Bradford, Thessex
Contact:

Postby cmacis » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:21 pm UTC

We're missing a major point here: the doors don't go anywhere. If the truthful guard is all-knowing then bring him along by whatever means it takes. If he is all knowing and is forced to answer your questions then it's easy:

me: What is the simplest way to get you to come along to defeat your boss.
him: X
me: do X
him: Alright, I'll come along

To get only the truth teller make the group believe that the liar asked a tricky question. Liar gets stabbed. Kill the stabber, or work out if he is useful to you.
li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su'i pa du li no

Mathematician is a function mapping tea onto theorems. Sadly this function is irreversible.

QED is Latin for small empty box.

Ceci n’est pas une [s]pipe[/s] signature.

User avatar
Aoeniac
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:55 am UTC
Location: RIGHT HERE IN THIS VERY SPOT→•

Postby Aoeniac » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:23 pm UTC

Popliteal wrote:I don't know if its a reference to the Bowie movie "the labyrinth", but every time I read it, it makes me think of that and giggle on the inside


Yeah, it's not. But if it was the comic would be a lot sexier.
Class: 12th level Epiphenomenalist Alignment: Rational

User avatar
Aoeniac
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:55 am UTC
Location: RIGHT HERE IN THIS VERY SPOT→•

Postby Aoeniac » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:26 pm UTC

Belial wrote:It was never specified that they had to be yes/no questions, or that they could only be directed to one guard.

"Who here is the stabby guard?"

Got it in one.


Yeah I think that would be the best way to figure things out.

Truth teller would say, "it's that guy"

Liar would say, "it's THIS guy"

And Stabby would lunge at you.

So now you know who all three of them are.
Class: 12th level Epiphenomenalist Alignment: Rational

User avatar
cmacis
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:22 pm UTC
Location: Leeds or Bradford, Thessex
Contact:

Postby cmacis » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:30 pm UTC

Is that a tricky question though?
li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su'i pa du li no

Mathematician is a function mapping tea onto theorems. Sadly this function is irreversible.

QED is Latin for small empty box.

Ceci n’est pas une [s]pipe[/s] signature.

User avatar
Aoeniac
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:55 am UTC
Location: RIGHT HERE IN THIS VERY SPOT→•

Postby Aoeniac » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:35 pm UTC

If I was Stabby guard, I'd consider EVERY question a tricky question.

¦Þ
Class: 12th level Epiphenomenalist Alignment: Rational

User avatar
Yakk
Poster with most posts but no title.
Posts: 11128
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 pm UTC
Location: E pur si muove

Postby Yakk » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:05 pm UTC

Take one of their spears.

Stab that guy in the foot.

If he says "YOU STABBED ME IN THE FOOT!" or similar, you don't have the liar.

Repeat until you find the liar.

Now, ask everyone "how do I get out of here?" Don't do what the liar says. Keep the spear, it could be useful.

Ronfar
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:04 am UTC

Postby Ronfar » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:13 pm UTC

I like the twist the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga did with this riddle. Both guards were liars; after you made your choice, they switched the "doom" door to whichever you picked. Of course, Yugi figures this out and pulls his own con, similar to the "trick" of picking the two shells that don't have the pea underneath.
- Doug

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:14 pm UTC

Yakk: Been reading OotS much?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Yakk
Poster with most posts but no title.
Posts: 11128
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 pm UTC
Location: E pur si muove

Postby Yakk » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:36 pm UTC

Moi?

User avatar
warriorness
Huge Fucking-Lazer
Posts: 1610
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:33 am UTC
Location: CMU, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Contact:

Postby warriorness » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:53 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
warriorness wrote:Is it just me, or is every comic nowadays clearly inspired by something posted on the fora? I still love them, don't get me wrong, but it feels like I've read half the comic already!


Fun fact: Randy really doesn't read the forums that much. I would venture that we're just not terribly unpredictable.


It's gotta be a huge coincidence, then. Each time I think this, there's always been a thread made on the topic only a few days ago.
Iluvatar wrote:Love: Gimme the frickin' API.
yy2bggggs, on Fischer Random chess wrote:Hmmm.... I wonder how how a hypermodern approach would work

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:02 pm UTC

He also generally readies the comics weeks in advance.

I've been really tempted, on occasion, to steal his sketches and upload them to the fora as spoilers.

Because I am a dick like that.

But I won't.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
saxything43
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:03 pm UTC
Location: The band room, probably.
Contact:

Postby saxything43 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:49 pm UTC

Of course, to figure out the guards, you could just ask this:

What does two plus two equal?

Truth: Four

Lie: Anything else

Stabby Guy: It's just math, he won't kill you. Unless he's stupid....

And then ask the truthful guard for the way out. Which isn't a way out....but you still beat the guards.

EDIT: Actually, you would still have to distinguish between the truth one and the stabby one....hmm.
This post brought you to by the number 42.

User avatar
Aoeniac
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:55 am UTC
Location: RIGHT HERE IN THIS VERY SPOT→•

Postby Aoeniac » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:57 pm UTC

If we're assuming that Stabby McStabsalot can tell the truth or lie whenever he wants, the only simple way to tell him apart is getting him to try stabbing you.

Of course, I think ALL of our solutions are operating under the assumption that the other two are UNABLE to stab us at their own volition...

Despite the fact that it WOULD make a better trap if ALL the guards just go ahead and stab you.
Class: 12th level Epiphenomenalist Alignment: Rational

User avatar
Arancaytar
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: 52.44°N, 13.55°E
Contact:

Postby Arancaytar » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:49 pm UTC

Reminded me of an Order of the Stick episode...

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Postby Jesse » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:51 pm UTC

That link was already posted, by RG I think.

User avatar
cmacis
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:22 pm UTC
Location: Leeds or Bradford, Thessex
Contact:

Postby cmacis » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:14 pm UTC

Ha, 3rd person to post that link!
li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su'i pa du li no

Mathematician is a function mapping tea onto theorems. Sadly this function is irreversible.

QED is Latin for small empty box.

Ceci n’est pas une [s]pipe[/s] signature.

Il Stefan
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:08 am UTC

Postby Il Stefan » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:15 am UTC

fourth.

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby EvanED » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:28 am UTC

Belial wrote:It was never specified that they had to be yes/no questions, or that they could only be directed to one guard.

"Who here is the stabby guard?"

Got it in one.


Whose answer do you listen to? I think you have to assume that the stabby guard tells the truth to get that in one.

User avatar
LordRiffington
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:17 am UTC
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Postby LordRiffington » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:42 am UTC

The obvious solution is to kill two guards. Assuming that two are under some kind of spell to make them tell the truth or a lie, then you can determine which guard is left. If it's the stabby guard, who is capable of saying whatever he wants....well....you clearly have no reservations about killing guards, so chances are he'll tell you what you want to know.

User avatar
cephalopod9
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:23 am UTC

Postby cephalopod9 » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:18 pm UTC

I think I would stick with the guy in the hat showing people around. He seems to know what's going on.
Image

User avatar
Peshmerga
Mad Hatter
Posts: 2061
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:56 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Peshmerga » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:22 pm UTC

I heard xkcd has small hands! :idea: :idea:
i hurd u liek mudkips???

User avatar
Vandole
Posts: 845
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:04 am UTC
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Postby Vandole » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:09 am UTC

"If I were to ask you what the average flightspeed of a swallow is, would you stab me?"

Liar says yes, does nothing.
Truth-teller says no, does nothing.
Stabber stabs you.

Or maybe "If a hawk is bearing down on a nest at an angle of 23.5 degrees, and the temperature of a tea kettle is 75 degrees Celsius, what is the province of Canada in which Vancouver is located?"

Of course this is assuming that they are incapable of doing anything but what we're told.
Vandole wants you to read An Intimate History of the Greater Kingdom (NSFW text).
Oh, I'm no end table. I'm a nightstand.
Gelsamel wrote:Don't ever sig me..... ever.

Rocco
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:44 am UTC

Postby Rocco » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:02 am UTC

Does the stabby guard take action against questions asked of the other guards?

Does the stabby guard take action against non-tricky questions (such as "are you the one that stabs people?")?

Does the stabby guard answer non-tricky questions truthfully, or mix-'n-match?
--------------------------------------------
Maybe this:

1. Ask all three guards "Would you stab me if I asked you a tricky question?"

2. If the stabby guard always tells the truth, you're home free. But if lies sometimes, then you might only get one "yes" from the liar. Either way, one of the "yesses" will be the liar.

3. If you get only one yes, then assume that guard is the liar. Ask him which door the truthful guard would never say leads out.

But if the stabby guard stabs you for asking ANY question, then you're shit out of luck, I think.

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby EvanED » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:31 am UTC

Rocco wrote:Does the stabby guard take action against questions asked of the other guards?


I would assume yes.

Does the stabby guard take action against non-tricky questions (such as "are you the one that stabs people?")?


I would assume no.

Does the stabby guard answer non-tricky questions truthfully, or mix-'n-match?


I would assume that you can't rely on any particular behavior on the part of the stabby guard, so mix-'n-match to be most Byzantine.

Maybe this:

1. Ask all three guards "Would you stab me if I asked you a tricky question?"

2. If the stabby guard always tells the truth, you're home free. But if lies sometimes, then you might only get one "yes" from the liar. Either way, one of the "yesses" will be the liar.

3. If you get only one yes, then assume that guard is the liar. Ask him which door the truthful guard would never say leads out.

But if the stabby guard stabs you for asking ANY question, then you're shit out of luck, I think.


What happens for step three if you get two yeses? And your question to #3 is perhaps a bit tricky... any idea of how to simplify it or get the information you need?

User avatar
OmenPigeon
Peddler of Gossamer Lies
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:08 am UTC
Contact:

Postby OmenPigeon » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:51 am UTC

EvanED wrote:
Does the stabby guard take action against non-tricky questions (such as "are you the one that stabs people?")?


I would assume no.


But all questions are tricky!

Proof:
A question is either obviously tricky or not obviously tricky.
If it's obviously tricky then it's tricky.
If it isn't obviously tricky then the questioner must be asking it to try and gain some information by asking a non-tricky question.
Thats pretty tricky.

If I were the stabbing guard I'd consider all questions tricky. 'Cause you can't be too careful. Every young buck with a sharp stick and dream in his pocket wants your job. Let a tricky question slip by, and you're back on the street poking people with a pencil stub for spare change. I got a wife and a kid on the way, man. I need this job.
As long as I am alive and well I will continue to feel strongly about prose style, to love the surface of the earth, and to take pleasure in scraps of useless information.
~ George Orwell

engine
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:48 am UTC

Postby engine » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:56 am UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:I think I would stick with the guy in the hat showing people around. He seems to know what's going on.

I can't believe this wasn't posted sooner.

Rocco
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:44 am UTC

Postby Rocco » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:09 am UTC

EvanED wrote:What happens for step three if you get two yeses? And your question to #3 is perhaps a bit tricky... any idea of how to simplify it or get the information you need?


If you get two yesses, then the only no is certainly the truthful guard. Because he will ALWAYS answer no to "will you stab me if I ask a tricky question?".

And to simplify that question, hmm.... Yeah, you could just say "What is one of the doors that doesn't lead out?". Silly me.

OmenPigeon wrote:Proof:
A question is either obviously tricky or not obviously tricky.
If it's obviously tricky then it's tricky.
If it isn't obviously tricky then the questioner must be asking it to try and gain some information by asking a non-tricky question.
Thats pretty tricky.
Well, again, if that's the case, then there's no point trying to logic our way out of it. Might as well go down fighting!

User avatar
HiEv
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:45 am UTC

Postby HiEv » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:22 am UTC

Why bother posting guards if the guards let people right through? How does that qualify as "guarding"?

Personally, if I wasn't in a hurry I'd just wait around until the guards were relieved or fed and then follow them out of the labyrinth. :wink:
The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has its limits.

User avatar
Puellus Peregrinus
Sazl. Eliuo Sazl.
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Tampere, Finland

Postby Puellus Peregrinus » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:01 pm UTC

engine wrote:
cephalopod9 wrote:I think I would stick with the guy in the hat showing people around. He seems to know what's going on.

I can't believe this wasn't posted sooner.

Well, It might not be a very good idea...
They say he is mean as a raptor.
Romanes eunt domus!

User avatar
Aoeniac
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:55 am UTC
Location: RIGHT HERE IN THIS VERY SPOT→•

Postby Aoeniac » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:08 pm UTC

If I was the truthful guard I'd stab people too.
Class: 12th level Epiphenomenalist Alignment: Rational

User avatar
Nomic
Posts: 554
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:29 pm UTC
Location: Gibbering in the corner

Postby Nomic » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:08 pm UTC

Best would be to ask them all something not tricky, like what's 1+1. The guy who doesn't say 2 is the liar. Then point at one quard and ask the liar if he's the staby guy. Since the liar always lies, if he says yes that guard is not the stabby guy but the guy who tells truth. Ask him for directions.

User avatar
evilbeanfiend
Posts: 2650
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:05 am UTC
Location: the old world

Postby evilbeanfiend » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:41 pm UTC

no clearly you should ask a tricky question, while this will mean yu do get stabbed you will also have reduced the problem to one that has already been solved.
in ur beanz makin u eveel


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 38 guests