0590: "Papyrus"

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Random832
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:21 pm UTC

And a short list of (not free) fonts other than comic sans whose actual "a" looks like that:

Futura
Avant Garde Gothic
Tw Cen MT (Twentieth Century, a Futura clone)
Century Gothic (another Futura clone, with ambitions of being an Avant Garde Gothic clone)
Berlin Sans FB
Any script font, of course
Monaco
Memphis (a classic slab-serif font)
Here's a thread with more, including some serif fonts

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lowbart
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby lowbart » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:39 pm UTC

Sylfaen for formal typing (Most teachers can't tell it's not Times New Roman but I think it looks nicer and less boring)

Arial or Arial Narrow for informal / sans serif typing

Franklin Gothic for computer shit - icons, title bars, menus, etc.

and, internet forums will always look wrong to me if they're not in Verdana, which I guess must be a phpbb default or something.

also, I kind of like this recent trend of using bold all-caps Arial and Helvetica for trendy stuff. (see http://www.hipsterrunoff.com) It gets a little overused but at least they're using nice-looking fonts for that stuff instead of, I don't know, some of the crap I see on store signs around my hometown.
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LisaR
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby LisaR » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:34 pm UTC

Delurking to let all the design geeks know about the documentary "Helvetica." It's a movie about a font. I'm not into design at all and I went to see it under the assumption that all documentaries at the independent theater would be good. The audience was all design people though and they were laughing at in-jokes that went over my head.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby WyomingPBS » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:26 am UTC

llamapalooza wrote:1. Comic Sans is fucking hideous. No letters should ever be shaped or spaced like that.


Why not? Obviously many people disagree with you, or it wouldn't be so popular. As I said previously, I find the letter shapes quite easy on the eyes. What you mean is that *you* don't like letters shaped like that; that doesn't make the letter shapes wrong for anyone else.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby dennisw » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:49 am UTC

semicharmed wrote:
dennisw wrote:No one has mentioned Optima. I think it's really nice looking, but probably approaches overuse. I like Palatino, as well.

Intensely dislike Optima. Fonts should either be a sans serif or a serif. None of this wimpy "I don't know what I want to be so I'm going to pussy-foot around and be a half-serif."


Then I bet you really dislike semi-serif fonts.
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby kps » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:24 pm UTC

cathrl wrote:Comic Sans is far and away the best common font to use with small children - because every other font has an "a" which looks nothing like how you are teaching them to write it.

Well for God's sake stop teaching them wrong!

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:57 pm UTC

kps wrote:
cathrl wrote:Comic Sans is far and away the best common font to use with small children - because every other font has an "a" which looks nothing like how you are teaching them to write it.

Well for God's sake stop teaching them wrong!

This - there's no fundamental reason "a" can't be written like this:
a.png
a.png (2.72 KiB) Viewed 6297 times
except for the fact that we're told not to.

Big Colombian
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Big Colombian » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:18 pm UTC

Check out http://www.papyruswatch.com/2009/05/xkc ... l#comments This is the website for papyrus abuse (more or less).

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby VidGa » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:43 pm UTC

Registered just to voice my love for Bodoni MT.

It's distinctive but still dignified, with a friendly but undistracting character. Plus, its italic is pleasingly subdued, maintaining most of the horizontal strokes, making about half of the letter forms suggestive of an oblique. We chose it for our body copy when we redesigned the university lit mag, and it helped us achieve an artistic and elegant appearance.

I see Bodoni as the odd-man-out in the Garamond/Times deathmatch. Palatino is not invited to this rumble.

That said, we went with Monotype's Garamond italic for heading in the design's premiere, but promptly switched to Adobe Garamond Pro italic after sulking over the horrible kerning on Monotype's capitals. Qu ligatures also spiced things up a bit.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby almo » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:50 am UTC

Should have been comic sans. That's more hated than any other I think. :)

I had the good fortune to see the Helvetica movie at a typographer's convention. People walking around in Helvetica shirts. A few had Arial shirts, which everyone thought was pretty funny. The MC guy said "We're here to see Helvetica. Thanks for coming. We'd like to thank the Arial people for coming, too. (They stand up, everyone claps and laughs.) The Comic Sans people were stopped at the door. (Huge laughter.)"

That was great!!

Awesome movie, BTW. It's more about designers and what they're like than the font. They use the font as a talking point.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby almo » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:53 am UTC

WyomingPBS wrote:
llamapalooza wrote:1. Comic Sans is fucking hideous. No letters should ever be shaped or spaced like that.


Why not? Obviously many people disagree with you, or it wouldn't be so popular. As I said previously, I find the letter shapes quite easy on the eyes. What you mean is that *you* don't like letters shaped like that; that doesn't make the letter shapes wrong for anyone else.

pbs


Just because a lot of people pick it doesn't mean it's good. People tend to pick Comic Sans because it obviously looks playful, and Windows machines don't ship with any other decent playful fonts.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Steve the Pocket » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:32 pm UTC

I have to wonder if the people who like Comic Sans just haven't seen any better handwriting-esque fonts, because their computers don't come with any. And that's the big thing: Microsoft put zero effort into making it, and stuck every PC owner with it and, by extension, everyone who has to look at stuff made on PCs. They have improved, of course; most of the new Vista fonts are excellent. For anyone who has a legitimate use for a faux-handwriting typeface, the lineup includes Segoe Print, which I rather like. You could even put it in an informal email and I probably wouldn't gag.

I have a love-hate relationship with Calibri. On one hand, it's an excellent humanist font that doesn't try to be a Frutiger clone, and one of the few sans-serif fonts that actually look good in print (as Microsoft themselves must have realized when they made it the new default body text font in Word). Plus it's the only Vista font that doesn't use "lower-case" numbers. On the other hand, though... they made it too damn small! For any given point size, Arial, Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Lucida Sans, and even Myriad are the same cap height; Calibri is significantly smaller. Which means I can never use it on a website, even as one of many available fonts in a list, because the size of the lettering will depend on which font the user has installed. :?
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:30 pm UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote: . . . Calibri is significantly smaller. Which means I can never use it on a website, even as one of many available fonts in a list, because the size of the lettering will depend on which font the user has installed. :?


The size of the font relies on the User-agent style sheet anyway. You really shouldn't be counting pixels for web-design. You don't know if the user has poor eyesight or an extremely high-resolution screen that may require them to scale the fonts.

If you want a magazine or brochure, use PDF format. It (Adobe's reader) even supports JavaScript now, if you are into that kind of thing.
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:28 pm UTC

phillipsjk wrote:
Steve the Pocket wrote: . . . Calibri is significantly smaller. Which means I can never use it on a website, even as one of many available fonts in a list, because the size of the lettering will depend on which font the user has installed. :?


The size of the font relies on the User-agent style sheet anyway. You really shouldn't be counting pixels for web-design. You don't know if the user has poor eyesight or an extremely high-resolution screen that may require them to scale the fonts.


I would go so far as to say that for body text you should always use the default size, and the serif or sans-serif options, if that. (for display/titles, go all out, but those are generally going to be big enough that a few percent variation in height in the fallback fonts aren't going to matter). If someone wants Verdana, they'll pick it as their sans-serif option and set their default to sans-serif.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:29 am UTC

ult_sandwich wrote:also triskweline (CENSORED)


Um... that's some really inappropriate imagery, there.

And, since you didn't explain, I googled it - Triskweline is yet another bitmapped fixed-width font for programmers. Looks not-terrible as far as those go (I'd go with a taller/narrower one, but whatever). Utterly unsuited for general usage for body text, headlines/display, or anything in print

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby iceberg » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:34 am UTC

Just got back from a high school graduation... and all the videos used Papyrus for captions and it made me laugh
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby WyomingPBS » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:45 pm UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:I have to wonder if the people who like Comic Sans just haven't seen any better handwriting-esque fonts, because their computers don't come with any.

I'll go hunting around, Steve. I can't say I have seen better faux handwriting fonts, but I have seen a lot worse - stuff that looks like it was scribbled by a first grader, chalkboard fonts, even fonts reminiscent of Ralph Steadman. To me, Comic is an acceptable balance between formal and illegible - just casual enough to give a feeling of informality without looking sloppy.

The other advantage of Comic is, it's on nearly every computer on the planet so if I send something out in Comic, there's a better than even chance that's how it will be rendered on the receiving end. I'm sure some of the examples you named are better looking, but it's all for naught if the recipient doesn't have that font.
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:55 pm UTC

WyomingPBS wrote:The other advantage of Comic is, it's on nearly every computer on the planet so if I send something out in Comic, there's a better than even chance that's how it will be rendered on the receiving end. I'm sure some of the examples you named are better looking, but it's all for naught if the recipient doesn't have that font.


That's no excuse if it's going to be printed, or baked into an image.

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jjane
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby jjane » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:54 pm UTC

this comic totally validates me. now i know i'm not alone in my despisal of Papyrus.

*shudder**twitch*

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Mithrandir » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:18 am UTC

Don't kill me, but I like old Times New Roman.
Or a klingon font from http://www.kli.org

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby MuToiD_MaN » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:44 pm UTC

That's it. I'm opening up FIVE businesses where all of the building fronts have Papyrus font. Just because of you guys.
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby nehpest » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:27 pm UTC

I'm certainly not a font geek; the only time I go out of my way to change fonts (aside from setting a monotype in whatever program I'm using to code) is to find a font with capital Js that extend below the bottom of the letters.
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby MuToiD_MaN » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:46 pm UTC

Capital J's that descend? What madness are you speaking of? What fonts do this?
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby MuToiD_MaN » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:30 am UTC

Well, I'll be damned. Seems just wrong to me though ...
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby 10nitro » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:15 pm UTC

WyomingPBS wrote:I mean, geez, get a life.

Did you really just tell people on this forum to get a life?

WyomingPBS wrote:Finally, it's a bad idea to use an off-brand font when you are sending an electronic document (email, Word, whatever) to someone else who may or may not have that font installed. Much as I loathe the Evil Empire, their fonts are just about universal so I can always count on the person at the other end having Comic, Arial, TNR, etc. I want to be sure the document appears on their end the way I intended it to look when I wrote it.

Recent w3c standards include dynamically loading fonts for web pages like you like. acid3 tests for this.
I don't care what fonts you use when you send me a word document, but if you ever send it to me in MS's .doc format...
And I really don't get it when people say they can't open my .odf's, it's an international standard. OO.o is free, and MS Office 2007+ supports it, if you must pay for your word processor. Don't worry, I don't send people .odf's if they don't, I just get frustrated that they support the idea that .doc's are more ubiquities than the international standard.

WyomingPBS wrote:Enjoy life, use whatever fonts turn you on

Most people here aren't that weird!

dbh2ppa wrote:as for comic sans, it is not pretty, and if you're going to make a typeface that's supposed to look like hand-writing, give us AT LEAST four alternates for every character, and then MAYBE it would be usable (this goes for all hand-writing style faces.)

a) I'm not entirely sure multiple alternates are possible for every character.
b) Even if they were, you would have to manually select which alternate you wanted every time.
c) As someone who has made fonts, believe me when I say I wish this could be done.
d) The kind of people that do lettering professionally are pretty consistent. Yes, you can find minor variations, but only if you're looking for them.
e) Again, Comic Sans (the capitols anyway) are pretty dead-on for most classic Marvel (and apparently CD) comics. Which is what it was going for. Nowadays the lettering they use looks more like whatever font alp uses. Sometimes I think the comic books changed only because Comic Sans copied off them.

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As such, I am going on protest - Until designers actually start regularly including decent fonts with computers, instead of a list of a hundred nearly identical yet so craptacular its not worth it fonts, I am going to be using nothing but default (when I don't care to make a choice) or comic sans (if I have a choice).

I wish there was an internet site where I could just, like, store fonts or something, and have the word proccessors load from there...

But then again I list Bearpaw and Davinci amongst my favorites so maybe it would be better if everyone just ignored me.

recent w3c standards include dynamically loading fonts for web pages like you like. acid3 tests for this.
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J Spade
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby J Spade » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:36 pm UTC

I like to use Optima when I don't have to use Times New Roman, but sometimes I use a font I made out of my own handwriting.
Vernanda is nice and neat, too.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Carnildo » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:38 am UTC

Random832 wrote:Use futurɑ. Also, mɑny fonts hɑve ɑ letter ɑt U+0251 thɑt cɑn be used ɑs ɑn ɑlternɑte "ɑ". There's ɑlso ɑn ɑlternɑte "ɡ" ɑt U+0261, originɑlly for the internɑtionɑl phonetic ɑlphɑbet, so if you're willing to do ɑ bit of extrɑ prep, you cɑn use whɑtever font you wɑnt.

That looks really strange here: most of your post is in the aforementioned bitmapped Helvetica, but since it doesn't cover much outside of the Latin-1 range, the "a"s are in Code2000.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Keybounce » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:17 pm UTC

ctristan wrote:Since there are so many typography geeks in this thread, here's a question I've been wanting to ask for a long while: Are there any scientific studies that looks objectively at different standard font types and sizes to show which ones are the most easily readable and take the least amount of effort for the mind to process? And I mean any of the standard fonts, like Arial, Times New Roman, Comic Sans, Papyrus, etc. I ask this because I'm curious to know if it has been determined what is the absolute most efficient font type and size for readability and information processing, be it Arial size 12 or Calibri size 11 or whichever.


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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby scarletmanuka » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:11 am UTC

10nitro wrote:And I really don't get it when people say they can't open my .odf's, it's an international standard. OO.o is free, and MS Office 2007+ supports it, if you must pay for your word processor. Don't worry, I don't send people .odf's if they don't, I just get frustrated that they support the idea that .doc's are more ubiquities than the international standard.

But the simple fact is that .doc files are more ubiquitous than the international standard. Now that MS supports the .odf format this will eventually change as people upgrade (or switch to non-MS products), but the installed base for .doc is HUGE. Complaining that people think this is true is not particularly helpful when it is, in fact, true.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby 10nitro » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:56 pm UTC

scarletmanuka wrote:
10nitro wrote:And I really don't get it when people say they can't open my .odf's, it's an international standard. OO.o is free, and MS Office 2007+ supports it, if you must pay for your word processor. Don't worry, I don't send people .odf's if they don't, I just get frustrated that they support the idea that .doc's are more ubiquities than the international standard.

But the simple fact is that .doc files are more ubiquitous than the international standard. Now that MS supports the .odf format this will eventually change as people upgrade (or switch to non-MS products), but the installed base for .doc is HUGE. Complaining that people think this is true is not particularly helpful when it is, in fact, true.

I'm not complaining that they think it's true, I'm complaining that they continue to support the idea. Yes, it's true, but it doesn't have to be, start using odf! We can make the world slightly more sane!
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby scarletmanuka » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:33 am UTC

10nitro wrote:
scarletmanuka wrote:
10nitro wrote:And I really don't get it when people say they can't open my .odf's, it's an international standard. OO.o is free, and MS Office 2007+ supports it, if you must pay for your word processor. Don't worry, I don't send people .odf's if they don't, I just get frustrated that they support the idea that .doc's are more ubiquities than the international standard.

But the simple fact is that .doc files are more ubiquitous than the international standard. Now that MS supports the .odf format this will eventually change as people upgrade (or switch to non-MS products), but the installed base for .doc is HUGE. Complaining that people think this is true is not particularly helpful when it is, in fact, true.

I'm not complaining that they think it's true, I'm complaining that they continue to support the idea. Yes, it's true, but it doesn't have to be, start using odf! We can make the world slightly more sane!

Well, that's how I parsed the phrase "support the idea" in your previous post. The question of whether .doc or .odf is the more generally accessible format is not some moral question, it's a factual one with a fairly clear answer. The fact that you would prefer the answer to be different doesn't really change anything. For example, if I switched to using .odf, I would not "make the world slightly more sane", I would simply frustrate most of the people I send things to. And in the ideal case where everyone I send things to can read both formats, the actual benefit derived from switching to .odf is minimal - it's more of a philosophical than a practical advantage. Either way they can read what I send, and the details don't really matter.

Do you also get similarly frustrated with Americans who support not switching to the metric system? That, after all, is an international standard, with a much higher global market share (if we can call it that) than .odf, and the practical benefits of switching over are quite real.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

As I said in an earlier post, I just use plain (ASCII) text. It has been a standard since 1968 (according to wikipedia).

If non-roman, accented or bi-directional characters are needed, Unicode is available.

.doc, docx, .wpd, and .odf formats are simply not mature enough. Because of the proprietary nature of the Microsoft formats, I doubt they will ever be mature enough. That, and i don't like how much space they eat up :P I threw in the .wpd format as a reminder that popularity can be transient.
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:59 pm UTC

phillipsjk wrote:As I said in an earlier post, I just use plain (ASCII) text. It has been a standard since 1968 (according to wikipedia).

If non-roman, accented or bi-directional characters are needed, Unicode is available.


Unicode has only been a standard since 1991, and UTF-8 since 1993

As for text files in general... It's still not 100% clear what the line endings should be, or if they should be hard-wrapped (and if so, what width is best?). There are severe deficiencies in some implementations' bidirectional character support as compared to the unicode bidi standard, to say nothing of arabic text shaping.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby ConMan » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:18 pm UTC

I'm no typography geek, but I can't wait for Randall to do a comic on kerning. Especially if he mentions Clint Eastwood or "My Friend Flicka".
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby ghurley » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:02 am UTC

Papyrus is the worst (much worse than Comic Sans). It is used for everything that is: Faux-Spiritual, Aboriginal, Naturalistic, Organic, Infant Products, or Bible-related. And every time, it lends an air of cheapness to whatever document, sign, or logo uses it. The other one that makes me cringe is Berlin Sans.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby tagger418 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:58 pm UTC

OH! Over use! I felt quite dim when I first read this. I thought there was some serious resentment of Chris Costello by the rest of the Typography community because they didn't think of the Papyrus font first.

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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

[cough] AVATAR [/cough]
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby HighwoodFool » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:06 pm UTC

I like papyrus.

My mom and my sister overuse comic sans...
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Re: "Papyrus" Discussion

Postby Ouch.jars » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:01 pm UTC

Sgore wrote:So basicially I want you to imagine a video of "Shoop Da Whoop" flashing on screen a bunch of times, in Papryus, with Hey there Delilah playing in the backround.
Nobody ever make this video ever. Please.


I am a bad, bad person.

I am one of the Cambria users. I found it when my school started using MS Office 2007 (that's the only thing I like about it. if I want a line space between paragraphs I'll do it myself. And, because they are school computers, I couldn't change any settings even if I managed to find the button for it)
ouchjars: putting the "pie" in "sapience" since '08


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