0619: "Supported Features"

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Mo6eB
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Mo6eB » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:31 am UTC

I know that, feature-for-feature, Linux-based operating systems can be considered inferior to Windows. The development community can also be accused of many things, ranging from lazy¹ to stupid² to retarded³ *, but out of all this, there's only one thing that I want the OS to support.
Me. And the only OS that supports me is ... well, these days it's ArchLinux on my desktop, and I'm putting Kubuntu on my laptop after seeing it comes without pulseaudio.

¹ Xorg dropping backwards compatibility with 20yrs old apps
² Ubuntu coming with PulseAudio... though PA itself can fall under lazy
³ Gnome's entire existence falls here. Yeah, let's invent a whole new desktop and widget set, because Qt was dual-licensed back in the day. But I don't hate them for it - at least it's functional and whoever wants to can use KDE.
* all points above based on hormonal discharges caused by reading mailing lists. Read at your own risk.

P.S. Though these days I wonder if I like the OS out of some sort of Stockholm Syndrome. Or is it just the familiarity with what's broken that makes me stay and unwillingness to adapt to the alternative's failings - the exact same reasons stopping Windows users from switching. It's hard to judge whether I prefer this OS because it's better, when I can't stand using the other for not acting the same way.
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pxc
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Re: Supported Features

Postby pxc » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:37 am UTC

dasada122 wrote:Well, someone had to say it...
If Linux is going to slay the BEAST, they need to start at the bottom features. It irked me to see 5 different ways to alt tab in KDE 4, but none that worked well.

Err... if you have KDE compositing disabled, the alt-tab behavior of KDE 4 is the same as that of KDE 3. If you have it enabled, you have, as far as I can remember, these three options:
-a simple alt-tab switcher that looks like that of Windows with some pretty borders and the option of raising the foreground whichever window's icon you ahve selected
-a Vista-esque "flip 3D" window switcher
-an iTunes "cover flow" workalike

The first of those options, which is at the very least equivalent in functionality to the non-composited window-switching (and in my opinion better, since it has the added visual cue of raising the window), is the default.

Also, this is not new. This is how KDE 4 window switching has worked since at least the first RC, which is when I started playing with it.
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gothick
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby gothick » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:38 am UTC

monkeyman8 wrote:I have to pint out that macs are based on linux (I cound bsd as linux) they just happen to have all the pitfalls of both Linux and Windows


Hey, Macs come with Emacs, and play full screen Flash just fine. That's the best of both worlds, for me...

I imagine the Flash support is only there because of market share and Steve Jobs promising to set fire to the Adobe CEO's house if he didn't do it, though. The only reason Macs are better than Linux in any given area is normally due to market forces and the psychopathy, sorry, force of will, of Steve Jobs. It's got nothing to do with the technical folk.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby denkc » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:45 am UTC

I will register and note that my problems with 9.04 Ubuntu and my Intel graphics card got fixed with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunt ... bug/314928

loudmax
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Workaround for Flash video

Postby loudmax » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:03 am UTC

I've found a pretty good workaround for a lot of sites. The Video Download Helper Firefox extension does a great job of downloading Flash videos directly from Youtube and plenty of other sites. In my experience, it doesn't work with the Colbert Report or Hulu or anything that wants to run ads, but it works well with 90% of the Flash videos I want to watch.

Once the video is downloaded, you can watch it with Mplayer or VLC or whatever and it should play much better than it does from the Flash plugin... which pretty much goes to show that the poor playback quality has nothing to do with the Linux kernel and everything to do with poor support from Adobe. Granted, poor support is better than no support, so I'd much rather sites keep using Flash and eventually migrate to using the "Video" tag in HTML5 and skip Silverlight altogether.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Titanium Dragon » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:10 am UTC

I enjoy Windows and really am not a big fan of Linux. XP works for me, so what do I care, really?

This is why 80%+ of people use Windows - we just don't care as long as it works. "But Windows is really unstable/crashes constantly/has viruses/ect.!" In order:

1) Viruses are really much less of an issue than people make them out to be. If you're smart, the only thing which you're ever likely to get are things via websites, and even then it should be rare at best. They also can hit other computer systems. They are made for Windows because there are so many more Windows machines. If some other OS was so popular, it'd be just as heavily attacked.

2) Windows XP seldom crashes. Programs do crash or hang from time to time, though, especially on my low-end machine.

So really, what do I have to gain by switching? The inability to run a lot of programs without finagling? No thanks.

Plus, you know, the ability to run full screen flash without lag even on a low-end system. :D

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Iridos
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Iridos » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:18 am UTC

Uh, so this comic is essentially telling us flash runs in the kernel? Or even should?
C'mon!

Graphics drivers ARE in the kernel, but what they gotta do with flash?
I think I kinda see what the comic wants to say.. but it does so rather poorly.

... or perhaps we've just been trolled :)

I.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby mattflaschen » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:21 am UTC

Mo6eB wrote:"Gnome's entire existence falls here. Yeah, let's invent a whole new desktop and widget set, because Qt was dual-licensed back in the day. But I don't hate them for it - at least it's functional and whoever wants to can use KDE."


That statement makes it painfully obvious you don't know what you're talking about. GNOME was started in 1997 because Qt was then exclusively available under non-free licenses. There was no available free license. Only later (circa 1999), after GNOME was thriving, did Qt get released under any free license (the QPL). Qt probably never would have been freed if it hadn't been for GNOME. Even after it was available under the QPL, there were still compatibility issues with KDE's licensing. Finally, Qt got dual-licensed under both QPL and the GPL. And still later (quite recently) the LGPL was added as an option.

So I've explained very clearly why GNOME was actually started. Now you tell me when and why people should have stopped using and developing a perfectly good desktop (GNOME).
Last edited by mattflaschen on Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:26 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby mattflaschen » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:25 am UTC

gothick wrote:Hey, Macs come with Emacs, and play full screen Flash just fine. That's the best of both worlds, for me...

I imagine the Flash support is only there because of market share and Steve Jobs promising to set fire to the Adobe CEO's house if he didn't do it, though.


Except, again, Linux actually does all this just fine too, without any (as far as I know) arson threats. :lol:

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby 3n1gm4 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:26 am UTC

This is what I do:

  • Start buffering and put the video in pause (even in HD) and wait until it has been downloaded
  • $ vlc --fullscreen /tmp/Flash*

Try to do this on windows THAT easy.

GregC
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby GregC » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:33 am UTC

A classic case of mixing up bricks with penguins.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby waltwhitmanheadedbat » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:35 am UTC

Mo6eB wrote:...ranging from lazy¹ to stupid² to retarded³ *...

[...]

¹ Xorg dropping backwards compatibility with 20yrs old apps


I have an engineer friend who is convinced that the design of xorg was all three...I wish I were logging the conversation - there was something about a java program using sockets in such a way that made it so that it passed a 4K packet to a unix socket to talk to Xorg and blink a cursor every second. All communications with programs on Xorg use such sockets, I understand. You can see the issue.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby rocketrat » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:58 am UTC

This makes no sense to me. I find practically all types of xkcd comics funny, except computer ones, which go over my head.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby evJeremy » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:50 am UTC

rocketrat wrote:This makes no sense to me. I find practically all types of xkcd comics funny, except computer ones, which go over my head.

In short, let's just say that Flash is executed so poorly on gnu/linux that it may as well not even exist, so watching Mr. Jon Daily* online is a no go. So while linux is able to support a computer with 4096 processors (most computers have only 1-2 of them, not counting the cores), the technology for watching Youtube videos isn't there yet.

*before any one points it out, yes, I do know that's not his name.

nico
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby nico » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:05 am UTC

I love how people get all hot on a webcomic. Comments are actually funnier then the comic itself. I'm sure Randall is laughing a lot when looking at the hell he raised!

Btw, fullscreen Flash works perfectly here (Fedora 10 ... and with an ATI card!).

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Diadem » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:06 am UTC

took me 5 minutes to figure out what "4,0% CPUs" meant. Support for only 4% of CPUs? Up from 1024? Huh? I didn't get it.

Now that I know it says 4096 I still think it looks like 4,0%. Handwriting fail, Randall!
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby mrrix32 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:14 am UTC

3n1gm4 wrote:This is what I do:

  • Start buffering and put the video in pause (even in HD) and wait until it has been downloaded
  • $ vlc --fullscreen /tmp/Flash*

Try to do this on windows THAT easy.


This is what I was going to suggest :P And if you want to keep the video, just copy the file afterwards! Although doesn't work on live streams.

orionriver
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby orionriver » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:43 am UTC

OH MY GOD YES. Seriously, it is my only serious complaint about Linux.

And for the record, I have the Daily Show open in another tab-- MINIMIZED!

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Game_boy » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:15 am UTC

There's nothing the community can do about Flash. Gnash and Swfdec are short of developers not through lack of interest but because Adobe will sue anyone who works on a project if they've ever agreed to the Flash EULA (yes, that's right, the developers can never have used or installed Flash at any time in their life).

Get Youtube etc. to offer <video> support as an alternative, preferably Theora.
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby madjo » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:05 am UTC

I have the complete opposite on my netbook (currently running eeebuntu 9.04) with Flash. Full screen is smooth, but in-frame it's sluggish and slow.
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Dobblesworth » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:17 am UTC

Hurry up and get support in line for my 9237 CPU machine.

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littlelj
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby littlelj » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:46 am UTC

I am not technical.

Spoiler:
But:

1. I know what Flash is.
2. I know our technical guys swear about it relatively often.
3. I know what Linux is.
4. I know what Linux isn't for.

And therefore:


I smiled at this comic.
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gothick
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby gothick » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:02 pm UTC

mattflaschen wrote:
gothick wrote:Hey, Macs come with Emacs, and play full screen Flash just fine. That's the best of both worlds, for me...

I imagine the Flash support is only there because of market share and Steve Jobs promising to set fire to the Adobe CEO's house if he didn't do it, though.


Except, again, Linux actually does all this just fine too, without any (as far as I know) arson threats. :¡This cheese is burning me!:


Well, I guess things have moved on. I used Linux for several years, and I found that the multimedia stuff worked an awful lot better on a Mac out of the box than on any Linux distribution I ever used out of the box. But (as was my original point) that was mostly due to politics and closed-source/annoyingly licensed technologies dominating many standard formats, and lack of support from the hardware companies for some fairly mainstream things, rather than anything to do with the technology or technical ability of any development team from the Linux arena.

Apple can use their market force and corporate income stream to make sure that they can licence all the appropriate things out of the box (mp3 playback, DVD decryption, etc.) Plus the hardware companies will provide drivers for graphics tablets, odder sound cards, and all the other stuff, just because there's four or five times as many desktop Macs are there are desktop Linux boxes.

I'm not saying you can't do all this stuff with Linux. But I spent a lot more time getting it working under Linux than I did with OS X, sometimes needing to do kernel patches to get something as standard as a Wacom graphics tablet working with pressure sensitivity. Has this changed much in the last three or four years? It's been about that long since I switched...

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Sonic » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:14 pm UTC

(Posting to ensure my account's safety :()

I have given up on using Linux for desktop purposes. Although I do run a lot of *nixes (like my router) I still feel that it's a lot more mature for servers. I do use Debian on my sysadmin notebook, but that's because I don't really need things like Flash, and I hate mice with passion, let alone trackpads. Awesome WM + stuff like Vimperator plugin for Firefox make for a better notebook experience than anything Microsoft can provide.

PS: I also thought it said 4.0%

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby BioTube » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:52 pm UTC

First, I don't understand how anybody can mistake that for a percentage(or maybe my handwriting's just so bad I can also decipher his). Second, Flash runs smoothly on my box without DRI(which makes Firefox run unbearably slow on the screens it doesn't accelerate - and I'm stuck with a multiuser setup), though I'll admit I never use the fullscreen feature(something tells me stretching 320x240 to 1280x1024 would only make things even more unbearable).
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4,0%

Postby TrojanTurtle » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:57 pm UTC

Do you know why some of you thought it said 4,0%? It's for the same reason you can't read your mother's handwriting: you're all screen font addicts. :o

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby lihan161051 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:07 pm UTC

plin25 wrote:At first, I misread "4,096" as "4,0%" and was utterly confused.


You beat me to it. ;) I thought I had finally gotten to the xkcd episode that was too smart for me ..

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Re: 4,0%

Postby lihan161051 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:08 pm UTC

TrojanTurtle wrote:Do you know why some of you thought it said 4,0%? It's for the same reason you can't read your mother's handwriting: you're all screen font addicts. :o


You obviously haven't seen my handwriting. It can be read, but it demands context sensitivity and many people find it a non-trivial task. :p

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby random5 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:18 pm UTC

I'm going, wait it enables support for 40% more cpus than 1024? that's a really weird way to say that. Also comes out to 1433.6 and I haven't got .6 of a CPU handy.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby SirMustapha » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:28 pm UTC

WOW, did Randall poke the hornet's nest with this one. Poke? Hell, he SMASHED his fist straight into the middle of the hornet's nest. And am I ever glad he did so!

I mean, it's pretty idiotic to condemn a guy like Randall for this comic, since it already has been made clear that he likes Linux. And this strip is a good comment on the arrogance of people who think you shouldn't see things clearly and expose your criticism of Linux. As much as some of the Linux fans want to deny it, many people just want to use their computer. Full screen Flash videos won't work, so is it Linux's fault? Adobe's fault? Why should the user be worried with that? Whomever's fault it may be, it doesn't work. It's sad, but that's what happens.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Alzheimers » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:31 pm UTC

Considering you can't buy an Intel-based CPU laptop that has anything more powerful than the 4500 MID for under a thousand bucks, I'd say you're lucky you can even *get* video running. AMD models might have lower-clocked CPUs, but at least they will have an ATI/Nvidia accelerator at a five hundred dollar price point.
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby xolotl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:34 pm UTC

Oddly, Flash fullscreen works great on my Linux laptop (with an Intel chipset) but NOT on my desktop, which runs NVidia. Go figure. I suspect that's more to do with CPU than graphics chipset, though, as my desktop's pretty old and the laptop pretty new.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Hurduser » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:46 pm UTC

I do not see why anyone would want to use Flash -- and even less why they would want to use it in fullscreen. It is a horrible, unfree format which is crappily supported on Linux. For the few times, I cannot avoid using Flash, I use swfdec.
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby insom » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:55 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote:I mean, it's pretty idiotic to condemn a guy like Randall for this comic, since it already has been made clear that he likes Linux. And this strip is a good comment on the arrogance of people who think you shouldn't see things clearly and expose your criticism of Linux. As much as some of the Linux fans want to deny it, many people just want to use their computer. Full screen Flash videos won't work, so is it Linux's fault? Adobe's fault? Why should the user be worried with that? Whomever's fault it may be, it doesn't work. It's sad, but that's what happens.

It is not fair criticizing linux for eating the last cookie when adobe actually was the one who did it, no matter if the user only cares about that the cookie actually isn't there.
I think that what irks people (like me) is that in the vast majority of the cases it is linux that is the target for the anger. -Like sending angry emails to the car manufacturer when you can not drive your diesel powered car since the the local company only sells petrol...
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby frostedcheerios » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:05 pm UTC

Google Chrome OS is coming out.

I give Microsoft 5 years.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby xolotl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:10 pm UTC

Hurduser wrote:I do not see why anyone would want to use Flash -- and even less why they would want to use it in fullscreen. It is a horrible, unfree format which is crappily supported on Linux. For the few times, I cannot avoid using Flash, I use swfdec.

It's not a matter of "wanting to use Flash," it's a matter of "wanting to view some content on the web which happens to be in Flash." Downloading and using alternate programs to view Flash video just isn't very convenient, and effectively impossible if you're handing your laptop over to a friend who wants to show you some vids.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby SirMustapha » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:11 pm UTC

Hurduser wrote:I do not see why anyone would want to use Flash


Yeah, like, who the hell uses YouTube?

See? THAT is the problem the strip criticises. The comic wasn't about how Linux refuses to give support to full screen Flash. Don't believe me? Look at the closing line in the strip. THAT is the problem: the community is so self-absorbed and self-indulgent that, when it comes to problems like those, there's an almost complete disdain towards what the user wants. And like I said before, the user wants to USE HIS COMPUTER. That's all. The user doesn't want to go into a thread like this and see people saying "oh, but REAL Linux users don't NEED full screen Flash, because they have Emacs and they can turn on their coffee machine by pressing c-x c-y c-f c-u c-c c-k, and they can have 12000 different desktops and turn them into a hypercube and twirl them flashily all over the screen with compiz!". It would be nice if the attitude of the community was to say "well, yeah, the Flash support in Linux is poor for these and those reasons, and for now your best option is either choose Windows or Mac OS or wait until we manage to work it out". It's simple.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Greg02 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:17 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote:WOW, did Randall poke the hornet's nest with this one. Poke? Hell, he SMASHED his fist straight into the middle of the hornet's nest. And am I ever glad he did so!

I mean, it's pretty idiotic to condemn a guy like Randall for this comic, since it already has been made clear that he likes Linux. And this strip is a good comment on the arrogance of people who think you shouldn't see things clearly and expose your criticism of Linux. As much as some of the Linux fans want to deny it, many people just want to use their computer. Full screen Flash videos won't work, so is it Linux's fault? Adobe's fault? Why should the user be worried with that? Whomever's fault it may be, it doesn't work. It's sad, but that's what happens.


It's pretty idiotic to blame the guy who built your house for the lawn not being mowed. You blame your gardener for that. This comic doesn't attack the whole system, saying that the Linux distributions haven't reached maturity due to lack of full screen flash. No, it goes and blames the kernel developers for working on 'fringe issues' rather than a problem that has absolutely nothing to do with them, that if they ever started working on it, then something is wrong because it's a stupid idea to put flash support in the kernel.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby waltwhitmanheadedbat » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:18 pm UTC

Hurduser wrote:I do not see why anyone would want to use Flash -- and even less why they would want to use it in fullscreen. It is a horrible, unfree format which is crappily supported on Linux. For the few times, I cannot avoid using Flash, I use swfdec.


I'm feel as though I'm going to have to make a graphic, now, that has Bill Clinton saying with a speech bubble..."It's the nextwork effect, stupid!" It may be about 15 years too late, though.

I have a few friends who make videos and share this content on one of many video-sharing sites, almost all of which are flashplayer-based. Consequently, almost all of my friends end up getting flash player/plugin. This gradually extends to other people I know, eventually reaching the point where just about everyone has flash. This is a sane thing at this point, because no other format is as widely deployed.

Personally, it's not so much that I *want* to use flash, it's more that my free software sensitibilites have given away to pragmatism. This is also a sane thing.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby waltwhitmanheadedbat » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:21 pm UTC

Greg02 wrote:
SirMustapha wrote:WOW, did Randall poke the hornet's nest with this one. Poke? Hell, he SMASHED his fist straight into the middle of the hornet's nest. And am I ever glad he did so!
[snip]


It's pretty idiotic to blame the guy who built your house for the lawn not being mowed. You blame your gardener for that. This comic doesn't attack the whole system, saying that the Linux distributions haven't reached maturity due to lack of full screen flash. No, it goes and blames the kernel developers for working on 'fringe issues' rather than a problem that has absolutely nothing to do with them, that if they ever started working on it, then something is wrong because it's a stupid idea to put flash support in the kernel.


I think it's supposed to be a little ironic - you know most of the heavy development, and the only development that can really be considered 'linux' by everyone, is in the kernel. You hear about kernel patches...work on flash support, not so much.


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