0642: "Creepy"

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schismtracer
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby schismtracer » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:44 am UTC

I wish, if it where that easy I'd keep the lightsaber prop I made on me while on university campuses.


Well, for most people, it really is that easy. An unlucky few of us, on the other hand, are too socially inept/uninteresting/unattractive for it to be worth the inevitable rejection.

Personally, every time I've attempted the strip scenario, the woman's reaction was pretty much panel #3 (albeit, usually worded as "fuck off").

myoxisbroken
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby myoxisbroken » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:56 am UTC

psypete wrote:Point 1. Men in general (excluding those who do not have sexual interest in the female species) just want to get in your pants. The only ones that don't, you simply aren't their type. Many, many, many studies prove this time and time again. Men just want to have sex with random women all the time. If you "discover that [your] initial impressions were off", you got fooled. That isn't to say that all men ever want is *only* sex - they want sex, to be sure. But (some? I don't know how many) are willing to forego the sex for friendship or something else because friendship may be more valuable (or they're already getting nookie somewhere else).


Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong here. What you're saying is, there are two types of men: those who want to have sex with me and those who don't.

Maybe when I phrase it this way, you'll see why I'm completely and thoroughly unimpressed with your supposed insight into the male psyche.

Seriously, though. Do you think that the knowledge that some of my male acquaintances might possibly want to sleep with me will cause me to be shocked and horrified and make me faint like a tightly corseted Victorian woman? So there are some men that want to have sex with some women. No shit, Sherlock. Do you think I don't know where babies come from, either? There are also some women that want to have sex with some men, but apparently no one is supposed to talk about this.

What you fail to understand is that I don't give a flying fuck if the awkward nerd guy talking to me finds me sexually attractive. If he does, hell, that's a compliment. What I do, in fact, give a shit about, however, is whether said awkward nerd guy is only talking to me because he finds me sexually attractive, and is only talking to me with the goal of using me, for the purpose of obtaining either 1) sex, because he ties his self-worth to his ability to obtain sex, or 2) a relationship, because he wants another person that he can invest his whole self in and cling to like a goddamn leech because he wants to avoid dealing with his own issues.

To reiterate: man + sexual attraction to me - self-worth + the idea that a woman is necessary to validate his existence - actually caring about who I am as a person = creepy.
What I am NOT saying: man + sexual attraction to me = creepy.

If you wouldn't want to talk to me if there was no hope of getting sex, a relationship, or some form of emotional validation for your personal problems out of me, then get the hell out of my face and stop pretending to be my friend.
Friendship should be something that is mutually beneficial, because you both genuinely enjoy each others' company. If you become friends with someone because you want to use him/her/zem for your own purposes, you're absolutely pathetic, a rock is a better moral agent than you, and you deserve to remain alone and friendless. Harsh? Not at all. Using others makes you the lowest sort of scum.

Also, "female species"? Now you're just being a parody of every Internet Nice Guy ever. Excuse me while I vomit profusely. Maybe if you didn't think of women as mysterious, inscrutable non-humans, you'd be a little luckier in the relationship department.

psypete wrote:Point 2. Most women need to understand point 1 as a fact and keep it in mind at all times. If you even think of beginning a romantic or non-romantic friendship, relationship, etc with a male without at least being aware of that point, you're at risk of being taken advantage of.


Point 1 was that some men want to have sex with some women and that some other men don't want to have sex with some other women: what the hell is that supposed to tell me about the so-called Grand Truths of interactions between men and women?

Are you implying that a straight man won't interact with a woman unless 1) he finds her attractive or 2) he absolutely has to? I know I can talk to and have fulfilling friendships with both guys I would want to sleep with and guys I wouldn't want to sleep with. Similarly, I can not get along with guys I would want to sleep with and not get along with guys I wouldn't want to sleep with. Why should I believe men are incapable of acting similarly? Why are you insulting all men by telling them that they're no better than neanderthals, no better than acting above their instinct to have sex?

You can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be treated like a decent human being, but then turn around and blame your supposedly insurmountable beastly nature when you're too lazy to actually act like a decent human being.

psypete wrote:Point 3. Without going into the circumstances of a given society or generation and how men are raised in different environments, most men are different. You can make up a genre such as the above to apply to (for the sake of an example) geeky/nerdy xkcd fans. It's utterly meaningless. Given a large sample of the aforementioned group of men, most will behave differently depending on the situation that is presented to them, as i'm sure you know from having stated as much earlier.


If all men are different, then what was the point of making the first two points, in which you basically said, "all men are the same?"

psypete wrote:Point 4. As a person who suffers from what I consider to be an emotional disorder which makes it difficult for me to communicate with strangers, and without the help of medication, I must protest the way you paint a picture of people like myself (of which i'm sure there are lots on these boards) and how we behave or think. You can place blame however you want and you can make us out to be villainous as much as you like. We have issues. I don't think that makes us bad people. It's not justifiable or defensible to claim we lack self-awareness or don't attempt self-growth and that all our troubles are our own faults. That's like saying someone who has severe OCD is at fault for their personal defects. Yes, we cannot blame anyone else. That doesn't mean we could just fix ourselves with the snap of a finger and tip of a hat. We know we have problems. Fixing them is not like fixing a car. It's like fixing the ozone layer.


I don't care what your emotional or psychological issues are so long as you don't use them as an excuse to justify using people like tools. Or an excuse to justify demonizing over 50% of the human species solely based on the fact that they don't possess a Y chromosome.

I know plenty of people with guys with psychological issues and mental issues who are able to successfully interact with women. Why? Because they don't treat them like they would treat "women," they treat them like they would treat people. They treat them as they would treat themselves.

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zjxs
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby zjxs » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:18 am UTC

"...using people like tools. Or an excuse to justify demonizing..."

Way to miss the point, and prove the point of the comic actually. This guy is someone whose attempts to communicate an interest in people he finds attractive come across as creepy. He's the guy on the train. I can almost guarantee that his motives are no better or worse than the average guy. But because he says he has difficulty, you assume he wants to "use you" as a "tool" for his own pleasure.

I'm not that guy anymore (I started swimming obsessively, spending money on fashionable clothes and haircuts, paid meticulous attention to appearance and manner, and read a few self-help books on improving confidence and manner around the opposite sex), but I was in that position. I didn't want to use anyone. I wanted relationships that were mutually satisfying and good for both parties.

Now, you might find it uncomfortable that a guy is asking for something you don't want. But he does not know that you don't want it straight away. That's the point.

myoxisbroken
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby myoxisbroken » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:48 am UTC

zjxs wrote:"...using people like tools. Or an excuse to justify demonizing..."

Way to miss the point, and prove the point of the comic actually. This guy is someone whose attempts to communicate an interest in people he finds attractive come across as creepy. He's the guy on the train. I can almost guarantee that his motives are no better or worse than the average guy. But because he says he has difficulty, you assume he wants to "use you" as a "tool" for his own pleasure.

I'm not that guy anymore (I started swimming obsessively, spending money on fashionable clothes and haircuts, paid meticulous attention to appearance and manner, and read a few self-help books on improving confidence and manner around the opposite sex), but I was in that position. I didn't want to use anyone. I wanted relationships that were mutually satisfying and good for both parties.

Now, you might find it uncomfortable that a guy is asking for something you don't want. But he does not know that you don't want it straight away. That's the point.


I was not talking to you, but it is still surprising that you would take my words out of context and use them to "prove" something utterly irrelevant to what I was talking about. I am not saying shy, nerdy guys are creepy because they have difficulty expressing their feelings. Furthermore, I am not even saying that shy, nerdy guys who are attracted to me are creepy. If you had in fact been reading what I have written in previous posts (or even in the rest of that post), you would know that:

1) I tend to assume nerdy guys that talk to me are insecure and out to use me, based on past experiences;
2) I realize my assumptions are unjustified and unfair, because not all nerdy guys actually are that way;
3) I get over my assumptions and talk to said nerdy guys;
4a) Nerdy guy is cool, funny, not actually out to use me as a tool -> I have a new friend
4b) My initial assumptions were correct, nerdy guy is a creeper douchenozzle out to use me -> gtfo

However, can you really blame me for thinking that most nerdy guys are insecure, sexist pricks who would need others to validate themselves and would prefer to blame everyone else rather than examine themselves, given the number of people on this board who would rather blame society, evolutionary biology, women in general, feminists, jocks, or whomever for the fact that they can't get laid?

zjxs wrote:Now, you might find it uncomfortable that a guy is asking for something you don't want.


I don't.

me, in the goddamn post we're talking about wrote:I don't give a flying fuck if the awkward nerd guy talking to me finds me sexually attractive. If he does, hell, that's a compliment. What I do, in fact, give a shit about, however, is whether said awkward nerd guy is only talking to me because he finds me sexually attractive


Thanks for not reading my post, though!
Last edited by myoxisbroken on Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:01 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Dr_Pwn
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Dr_Pwn » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:55 am UTC

IMO the comic seems to flatly reject the possibility that the social pariah's awkward attempts at courtship would be an unwelcome annoyance. I propose a slight alteration to increase realism.

Image

Xentropy
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Xentropy » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:16 am UTC

myoxisbroken wrote:
psypete wrote:Point 1. Men in general (excluding those who do not have sexual interest in the female species) just want to get in your pants. The only ones that don't, you simply aren't their type. Many, many, many studies prove this time and time again. Men just want to have sex with random women all the time. If you "discover that [your] initial impressions were off", you got fooled. That isn't to say that all men ever want is *only* sex - they want sex, to be sure. But (some? I don't know how many) are willing to forego the sex for friendship or something else because friendship may be more valuable (or they're already getting nookie somewhere else).


Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong here. What you're saying is, there are two types of men: those who want to have sex with me and those who don't.


No, what he was saying (and I'm not going to say it's right or wrong, just clarify since you didn't understand his point) was that there are two types of men: those who want to have sex with you and those who don't want to have sex with ANY woman. Any man you think has interest in women but wouldn't have sex with you given the opportunity has simply successfully duped you, according to his theory.

Aetius
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Aetius » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:20 am UTC

myoxisbroken wrote:
me, in the goddamn post we're talking about wrote:I don't give a flying fuck if the awkward nerd guy talking to me finds me sexually attractive. If he does, hell, that's a compliment. What I do, in fact, give a shit about, however, is whether said awkward nerd guy is only talking to me because he finds me sexually attractive


Of course he is. He doesn't know a thing about you other than your appearance, why else would he be talking to you? The notion that a man has to know you, appreciate you on a deep level and invest in you before he even approaches you is entitled in the extreme.

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blob
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby blob » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:21 am UTC

myoxisbroken wrote:However, can you really blame me

Yes, yes I can. Because instead of treating other forumites as people, you seem to be seeking emotional validation[1] for your personal problems[2], which by your own definition[3] makes you creepy. Please stop.

[1] myoxisbroken wrote:However, can you really blame me for thinking that most nerdy guys are insecure, sexist pricks
[2] myoxisbroken wrote:1) I tend to assume nerdy guys that talk to me are insecure and out to use me, based on past experiences;
2) I realize my assumptions are unjustified and unfair, because not all nerdy guys actually are that way
[3] myoxisbroken wrote:If you wouldn't want to talk to me if there was no hope of getting sex, a relationship, or some form of emotional validation for your personal problems out of me, then get the hell out of my face and stop pretending to be my friend.
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schrodingasdawg
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby schrodingasdawg » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:24 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:
me, in the goddamn post we're talking about wrote:I don't give a flying fuck if the awkward nerd guy talking to me finds me sexually attractive. If he does, hell, that's a compliment. What I do, in fact, give a shit about, however, is whether said awkward nerd guy is only talking to me because he finds me sexually attractive


Of course he is. He doesn't know a thing about you other than your appearance, why else would he be talking to you? The notion that a man has to know you, appreciate you on a deep level and invest in you before he even approaches you is entitled in the extreme.

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EthErealist
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby EthErealist » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:36 am UTC

joee wrote:
glasnt wrote:I... wait, what?

rubber314chicken deleted their post...

Making this the thread for this comic.

Creepy.

You know what else is creepy?

creepy.PNG


That's creepy.

Both threads had 'Hi [glasnt/joee]' in them.

Shudder.



I know! He was first too... though he didn't have commentary, so you win

hi glasnt!

Also, sad comic randall. /me vows to talk to cute boys in trains more often. If only there were trains in my city...


I don't see the commentary in the OP's post.... :/

myoxisbroken
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby myoxisbroken » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:47 am UTC

Xentropy wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:
psypete wrote:Point 1. Men in general (excluding those who do not have sexual interest in the female species) just want to get in your pants. The only ones that don't, you simply aren't their type. Many, many, many studies prove this time and time again. Men just want to have sex with random women all the time. If you "discover that [your] initial impressions were off", you got fooled. That isn't to say that all men ever want is *only* sex - they want sex, to be sure. But (some? I don't know how many) are willing to forego the sex for friendship or something else because friendship may be more valuable (or they're already getting nookie somewhere else).


Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong here. What you're saying is, there are two types of men: those who want to have sex with me and those who don't.


No, what he was saying (and I'm not going to say it's right or wrong, just clarify since you didn't understand his point) was that there are two types of men: those who want to have sex with you and those who don't want to have sex with ANY woman. Any man you think has interest in women but wouldn't have sex with you given the opportunity has simply successfully duped you, according to his theory.


I am not so vain as to believe that there are no men that are interested in women who would not have sex with me, for whatever reason.* Thanks for the compliment, though!*

Aetius wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:
me, in the goddamn post we're talking about wrote:I don't give a flying fuck if the awkward nerd guy talking to me finds me sexually attractive. If he does, hell, that's a compliment. What I do, in fact, give a shit about, however, is whether said awkward nerd guy is only talking to me because he finds me sexually attractive


Of course he is. He doesn't know a thing about you other than your appearance, why else would he be talking to you? The notion that a man has to know you, appreciate you on a deep level and invest in you before he even approaches you is entitled in the extreme.


I am not talking about the situation of strangers on a train so much as the situation of, guy and girl have same class but don't know each other too well, or are co-workers but haven't spoken too much. People who are acquaintances. Not just random strangers. In that situation one would think there would be slightly more information to go off of, as opposed to just "nice ass: would love to tap that."* If you even bothered to read my posts you'd know that was what I was talking about. I suppose it's too much to expect people who are convinced of the intellectual inferiority of women to read anything they know was written by a woman.*

blob wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:However, can you really blame me

Yes, yes I can. Because instead of treating other forumites as people, you seem to be seeking emotional validation[1] for your personal problems[2], which by your own definition[3] makes you creepy. Please stop.

I suppose facetiousness is hard to pick up via text. For your benefit, I have placed an asterisk next to anything that was meant in a joking manner. Seriously, though, why would I need emotional validation from anonymous people on the internet? Unlike many people here, I have a healthy social life, because I have a degree of self-awareness that is sorely lacking in this thread in general. The fact that I tend to think nerd guys are creepy is hardly a problem in my social interactions or otherwise, because I have consciously allowed myself to get over it. This is why I have nerd guy friends and even a nerd guy boyfriend. Problem solved, motherfuckers!*

You, apparently, would rather be like the rest of the "get out of my head, Randall!"ites here and have your personal biases affect your real-life interactions in a negative way, and then blame other people when things go wrong.

Aetius
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Aetius » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:51 am UTC

myoxisbroken wrote:I am not talking about the situation of strangers on a train so much as the situation of, guy and girl have same class but don't know each other too well, or are co-workers but haven't spoken too much. People who are acquaintances. Not just random strangers. In that situation one would think there would be slightly more information to go off of, as opposed to just "nice ass: would love to tap that."* If you even bothered to read my posts you'd know that was what I was talking about. I suppose it's too much to expect people who are convinced of the intellectual inferiority of women to read anything they know was written by a woman.*


Oh I read your posts. But I'm sure your need to disregard anyone who disagrees with you as being too haughty to understand you is in no way indicative of your own assumptions of your intellectual superiority.

myoxisbroken
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby myoxisbroken » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:59 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:I am not talking about the situation of strangers on a train so much as the situation of, guy and girl have same class but don't know each other too well, or are co-workers but haven't spoken too much. People who are acquaintances. Not just random strangers. In that situation one would think there would be slightly more information to go off of, as opposed to just "nice ass: would love to tap that."* If you even bothered to read my posts you'd know that was what I was talking about. I suppose it's too much to expect people who are convinced of the intellectual inferiority of women to read anything they know was written by a woman.*


Oh I read your posts. But I'm sure your need to disregard anyone who disagrees with you as being too haughty to understand you is in no way indicative of your own assumptions of your intellectual superiority.

Um. Well, apparently you didn't read my last post, because you ignored the part where anything with an asterisk after it is indicative of facetiousness. Maybe I need to start doing this all the time. Are asterisks not obvious enough? Maybe I should use capslock. Or maybe, I'll put umlauts over every vowel in sentences that are meant facetiously.

Man, I really need to stop even trying to explain to people why their Nice Guy(tm) attitudes are unhealthy, deplorable, and don't work. I guess people need to grow out of their immature, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" bullshit on their own. Some people need a good smack upside the head; I can only provide a small poke in the eye.

ArcturustheFirst
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby ArcturustheFirst » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:24 am UTC

Myoxisbroken, please stop this.

If you have such a healthy social life that lets you so STIMULATINGLY interact with we lesser nerds, then by all means, have at it and enjoy. Besides, we all know that "I have tonnes of friends in real life! Really!! I talk to them and everything!"-type deal is the Canadian girlfriend of social circles in a forum context; we'll always hear about it and how great they are, but we'll never see the proof, and you're too busy telling us how great it is instead of being out there and enjoying it like you should be (if it's real).

But don't pick on people in a forum with a high-and-mighty condescending attitude towards them. You are at the height of uncoolness right now. This comic happened to show a situation that many introverted guys can relate to, and you come storming in here and start shitting on them for being introverted and relating to it.

If you don't like what we're saying or whatever, it's alright to interject and say your piece and try to change our minds or ways of thinking. But don't insult, berate, or generally harass people and use broad general assumptions in your arguments. You'll just sink yourself to a lower level.

Don't be uncool. We can disagree, get along, and still get our points and opinions across. But we can't have loudmouthed jerks. That really is the end.

Arcturus

myoxisbroken
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby myoxisbroken » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:53 am UTC

ArcturustheFirst wrote:Myoxisbroken, please stop this.

If you have such a healthy social life that lets you so STIMULATINGLY interact with we lesser nerds, then by all means, have at it and enjoy. Besides, we all know that "I have tonnes of friends in real life! Really!! I talk to them and everything!"-type deal is the Canadian girlfriend of social circles in a forum context; we'll always hear about it and how great they are, but we'll never see the proof, and you're too busy telling us how great it is instead of being out there and enjoying it like you should be (if it's real).

But don't pick on people in a forum with a high-and-mighty condescending attitude towards them. You are at the height of uncoolness right now. This comic happened to show a situation that many introverted guys can relate to, and you come storming in here and start shitting on them for being introverted and relating to it.

If you don't like what we're saying or whatever, it's alright to interject and say your piece and try to change our minds or ways of thinking. But don't insult, berate, or generally harass people and use broad general assumptions in your arguments. You'll just sink yourself to a lower level.

Don't be uncool. We can disagree, get along, and still get our points and opinions across. But we can't have loudmouthed jerks. That really is the end.

Arcturus

Hmm. Fair enough, I suppose I've let my frustrations get ahead of me, and let the more general topic of Nice Guys(tm) come too much into my posts on this comic. But I really, really don't appreciate people constantly misunderstanding my posts. I am not shitting on people for being introverted, nerdy, or shy; I am myself all of these things, and there is nothing wrong with any of them. What I am doing is denouncing the nerdy, shy introverts who go into the self-pitying territory, the paranoid conspiracy theorist territory, the bitching-about-the-friendzone territory, the women-hating territory, the it's-evolutionary-biology-those-stupid-women-are-this-way-so-I'm-destined-to-lose-at-life-God-hates-me territory. To deny these people exist is like trying to deny global warming: you can do it, but it's pretty much been established with a ton of empirical evidence at this point, so doing it just makes you look like an ass.

Since people are so consistently misunderstanding me, this means it is either a) my fault; and since I've been trying my best to explain my points already, there's no point in attempting to explain because my words will inevitably fail me or b) not my fault; in which case there's no point in doing anything, because my words won't help anyone because no one will understand them.

You realize, however, that telling a nerd she is uncool is like telling water that it is wet.
Last edited by myoxisbroken on Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:54 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Aetius
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Aetius » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:54 am UTC

myoxisbroken wrote:Um. Well, apparently you didn't read my last post, because you ignored the part where anything with an asterisk after it is indicative of facetiousness. Maybe I need to start doing this all the time. Are asterisks not obvious enough? Maybe I should use capslock. Or maybe, I'll put umlauts over every vowel in sentences that are meant facetiously.

Man, I really need to stop even trying to explain to people why their Nice Guy(tm) attitudes are unhealthy, deplorable, and don't work. I guess people need to grow out of their immature, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" bullshit on their own. Some people need a good smack upside the head; I can only provide a small poke in the eye.


Oh I got over that crap years ago, I'm just remarking that you haven't gotten over the female equivalent.

myoxisbroken
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby myoxisbroken » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:59 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:Um. Well, apparently you didn't read my last post, because you ignored the part where anything with an asterisk after it is indicative of facetiousness. Maybe I need to start doing this all the time. Are asterisks not obvious enough? Maybe I should use capslock. Or maybe, I'll put umlauts over every vowel in sentences that are meant facetiously.

Man, I really need to stop even trying to explain to people why their Nice Guy(tm) attitudes are unhealthy, deplorable, and don't work. I guess people need to grow out of their immature, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" bullshit on their own. Some people need a good smack upside the head; I can only provide a small poke in the eye.


Oh I got over that crap years ago, I'm just remarking that you haven't gotten over the female equivalent.


I honestly have no idea what you're on about. The female equivalent of what? I've given up on the thread at this point, but feel free to express your ad hominem attacks in a strongly worded PM, so we can stop clogging up this thread.

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blob
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby blob » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:38 am UTC

myoxisbroken wrote:I am not shitting on people for being introverted, nerdy, or shy; I am myself all of these things, and there is nothing wrong with any of them. What I am doing is denouncing the nerdy, shy introverts who go into the self-pitying territory, the paranoid conspiracy theorist territory, the bitching-about-the-friendzone territory, the women-hating territory, the it's-evolutionary-biology-those-stupid-women-are-this-way-so-I'm-destined-to-lose-at-life-God-hates-me territory. To deny these people exist is like trying to deny global warming: you can do it, but it's pretty much been established with a ton of empirical evidence at this point, so doing it just makes you look like an ass.

I understand that such people exist, and that sucks. But your assumption that I and almost everyone else on this thread fall into that group is simply paranoid, and has reduced your posts here to little more than a string of ad hominem attacks.

myoxisbroken wrote:You realize, however, that telling a nerd she is uncool is like telling water that it is wet.

To be less euphemistic, you're acting like an asshole. You're letting your personal biases affect your interactions here in a negative way, and then blaming other people when things go wrong.

This isn't 4chan. Try treating people as people, instead of "anonymous".

myoxisbroken wrote:Seriously, though, why would I need emotional validation from anonymous people on the internet?

Seriously, then, why are you still posting?

myoxisbroken wrote:Man, I really need to stop even trying to explain to people why their Nice Guy(tm) attitudes are unhealthy, deplorable, and don't work. I guess people need to grow out of their immature, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" bullshit on their own. Some people need a good smack upside the head; I can only provide a small poke in the eye.

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zjxs
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby zjxs » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:24 am UTC

As I have said above, assuming only that you value friendship and relationships equally;

Most people have enough friends. 100 + 1 is 101. The marginal value of another friendship is small. The comparitive marginal value of a relationship (sexual, romantic, whatever) is large. 0 + 100 is 100.

So it makes sense that nerd guy doesn't want a friend, isn't interested in MOS friendship. He doesn't want a female friend. If he's smart he'll not act creepy, and have MOS decide that he's a jerk, and post his pictures on the internet as "train guy".

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Monika » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:11 am UTC

Dr_Pwn wrote:IMO the comic seems to flatly reject the possibility that the social pariah's awkward attempts at courtship would be an unwelcome annoyance. I propose a slight alteration to increase realism.

Image

Don't crush all the xkcd nerd hopes and dreams ;) .




There is something funny about cute netbooks. See, I got this really adorable netbook late last year, once they started being cheap while at the same time having decent amounts of RAM and harddisk (I can even run desktop effects like the cube). Also, I was annoyed having to carry my heavy laptop around on the evenings of Linuxtags and the like (I am Kubuntu booth staff regularly). It wasn't mentioned much in the Ubuntu/Kubuntu user groups I hang out with. Half the people already had netbooks - and quite many even much smaller devices, tablets (these phones that can do everything except phone). Then recently I went to the local Unix User Group, a much more hardcore geek group so to speak. And everybody was like: Oh, what a cute netbook! :D
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Troy Martin » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:39 pm UTC

Randall, stop drawing out my life in comics, dammit! :mrgreen:
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby fffudge » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:43 pm UTC

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to start up a chat with a stranger, as long as you aren't being a pervert/sexist jerk (sexual harassers and PUAs can die in a fire) or bulldozing past her discomfort if she doesn't want to talk (you really can't ignore every possible nonverbal signal, then go apeshit when we give you verbal ones!). Saying "I like your netbook", in itself, seems pretty innocuous to me. I like chatting with strangers, esp. if they are cute nerd boys. :mrgreen: And I do initiate stranger chats, more in semi-public places (eg., local animal shelter, linux labs @ school) than public ones, but I have a lot of SA and the recent mass gushing over the likes of Megan Fox and Summer Glau has given me a bit of a complex. I used to think I was a "cute nerd girl", but apparently that means "incredibly hot girl who knows that nerd culture exists", and not "nerd girl that is cute".

zjxs wrote:As I have said above, assuming only that you value friendship and relationships equally;

Most people have enough friends. 100 + 1 is 101. The marginal value of another friendship is small. The comparitive marginal value of a relationship (sexual, romantic, whatever) is large. 0 + 100 is 100.


I think that's a really sad way to measure the value of a friendship. People aren't homogeneous products.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:45 pm UTC

"The eyes recommend an image to the heart..."

First the man sees the woman or vice versa. This moment (from studies) takes less than 1/3 of a second to process a physical attraction. This happens even before the person can consciously think about the person. So we know if we are attracted, physically, to someone before we even have a moment to think about them.

In this comic she is obviously physically attracted to the man. The man, it is suggested, is interested in her.

Second we begin a dialogue, verbal and non-verbal, to assess the other's interest in us. This process can take moments or years. But remember, we are talking about something that started with a visual attraction, based on the situation in the comic.

The entire conversation about what men and women want from relationships aside, this is the way most of those relationships start. We perceive something we like and we attempt to engage a relationship to have access to the thing we like.

Note that I'm very vague about "that thing".

Because for some people it's sex. Some people want a reliable friend. Some want a partner to play bridge with. So while I am generalizing when I say the following, I have it from many sources (people I've asked) that this is the basic desire paradigm.

- Men want sex.
- Women want security.

This is played out in the way that a lot of relationships dance around at the start. The woman wants proof of commitment from the man before she will engage in sexual activity, the man wants to have sex before he's willing to commit. Round and round it goes until one relents and takes the risk of giving without getting in return. All too common.

That does not mean that there aren't exceptions. There are always exceptions. Pointing out the exceptions doesn't change the generalization.

I do enjoy this thread, however, in that it seems many people don't want to accept the possibility that this generalization is true.
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby OBloodyHell » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:20 pm UTC

I'm put in mind of a Far Side, with a guy and a girl in bed at night (each at their own home), with relevant thought balloons.

The title of it is:
"Same planet, different worlds"

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Benson » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:59 pm UTC

fffudge wrote:
zjxs wrote:As I have said above, assuming only that you value friendship and relationships equally;

Most people have enough friends. 100 + 1 is 101. The marginal value of another friendship is small. The comparitive marginal value of a relationship (sexual, romantic, whatever) is large. 0 + 100 is 100.


I think that's a really sad way to measure the value of a friendship.
Yes, rationalism is generally "sad", but that doesn't make it less useful.
fffudge wrote:People aren't homogeneous products.
Wait, what? You actually want to argue this in rationalist territory? :twisted:

OK, they're not homogeneous. I submit as a reasonable model a gaussian distribution in n-space, representing personality and other characteristics. Most of the pop-psych "understanding* people" books I've heard of promote a 2d space, but the cynic in me supposes this has a lot to do with what's portrayable on a 2d page, and simple enough to sell big. (The original five Cylons presumably considered humanity to be of dimension ~3-4, as evidenced by creating only 7 (or initially 8, I guess) models. ;)) I'll go with a Jungian 4d allocation, but the exact dimension doesn't matter. Allocate, say, a dozen dimensions for non-personality attributes (generally experience, connectedness, or, to a limited extent, knowledge or other possessions). I think it's reasonable to consider the dimension to be ~20.

Now we need a model for friendship value; while some of these dimensions are to be maximised, I think striving for overall diversity is a reasonable simplification, and conservative to my argument. I think it's reasonable to assume value proportional to the increase in volume of the convex hull formed by adding the new friend. Unfortunately, it's not clear how to account for the case where there are less friends than the dimension of the space, so this analysis is only valid for more than ~20 friends.

Now I don't have the math to run numbers off the top of my head on this sort of thing, but plainly the expected value of each additional friend after the dimension is reached declines, and it should be obvious that for ~100 friends in a ~20-dimensional space, the expected value of each further friend is quite small.

I'm still unable to provide solid support to zjxs's conclusion, because equating the value of friends to the value of lovers still requires an empirical ratio, which probably varies an order of magnitude between people, and I see no particular reason why unity should be a valid assumption.

What this does show, however, is that with a sufficiently large (depending on the actual dimension and the aforementioned ratio) number of friends and no lover, a lover will be arbitrarily more valuable than a friend.

* and shamelessly manipulating!

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Nicole88 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:06 pm UTC

Aetius wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:
me, in the goddamn post we're talking about wrote:I don't give a flying fuck if the awkward nerd guy talking to me finds me sexually attractive. If he does, hell, that's a compliment. What I do, in fact, give a shit about, however, is whether said awkward nerd guy is only talking to me because he finds me sexually attractive


Of course he is. He doesn't know a thing about you other than your appearance, why else would he be talking to you? The notion that a man has to know you, appreciate you on a deep level and invest in you before he even approaches you is entitled in the extreme.


Imagine this:
Think of the women you personally find repulsive and/or just plain old uninteresting. Imagine that everyday of your life (since about the age of 12), these women hit on you while you go about the business of living. You buy a soda at the store, and the highly unattractive woman behind the counter makes some sort of comment about your penis. You go for your daily run and a trio of sweaty, unkempt ladies holler things about your ass. You go out with your guy pals and these random women in Von Dutch hats try to insert themselves forcibly into your conversations.

Soon, every time you see women looking at you, or approaching, you mentally tense up and brace for impact.

It's not that you don't like women. It's that most of your interactions with strange ones are based on their feeling entitled to objectify you. You grow to resent the idea that someone should feel comfortable coming up to you because you caused a stir in her pants. (And in this alternate universe, women dress in unsexy clothing and don't bother to do anything with their hair. So, unless they've won the genetic lottery, most of them look... well, you're not going to get interested based on their presentation.)

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby ATairov » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:11 pm UTC

Neoliminal, given that I've seen a high enough number of exceptions, I'd like to see a citation for a study that controls for acculturation that that specific perception is true, and to what degree and what percent of the populous it is.

-----

20 years old. A few months ago fell in love for the first time -- online. She's in Maryland. I'm not. She doesn't want to meet up IRL, which hurts. A lot.
(I've already told her my intention to break up with her over this. She decided to stay with me anyway until then. I know it sounds manipulative, but I cried. It isn't what I really want.)
Haven't met anybody I've really 'clicked' with on campus. Still not sure how this whole 'courting' process works. :p
It probably doesn't help that the whole thing comes more naturally to me online, where (as I'm sure you've guessed) I'm much cooler, more competent, and therefore more confident.
Not sure what to do. Probably some online matchmaking service might help. Aside from being underage, I don't like the atmosphere of clubs, dances or bars.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby ATairov » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:18 pm UTC

Nicole88 wrote:...
Welcome to being a young woman.


Keep in mind that this is in part due to the idea that the man should be the one ask the woman. That means men do most the asking, because society expects this of them, and men can't rely on a woman to ask if the woman genuinely is interested in them. Women don't want rejection either, of course, although women can lean on society's expectations (or perhaps feel because of society's expectations that they have to *get* the man to ask them, which is terribly inconvenient; I understand that in some areas it's considered taboo for the woman to ask) and leave men to the do the asking. I'm not saying this excuses jerks, of course.
Last edited by ATairov on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:00 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby setzer777 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:24 pm UTC

Nicole88 wrote:(And in this alternate universe, women dress in unsexy clothing and don't bother to do anything with their hair. So, unless they've won the genetic lottery, most of them look... well, you're not going to get interested based on their presentation.)


Tangent:

It surprises me a bit how many guys don't even bother with physical presentation. It varies by area (I hear that Austin is better than a lot of cities in this regard), but so many guys apparently think they can get by without caring at all about how they dress or groom - is it because they think women don't care about looks? That it isn't worth the effort?
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:41 pm UTC

Nicole88 wrote:
Aetius wrote:
myoxisbroken wrote:
me, in the goddamn post we're talking about wrote:I don't give a flying fuck if the awkward nerd guy talking to me finds me sexually attractive. If he does, hell, that's a compliment. What I do, in fact, give a shit about, however, is whether said awkward nerd guy is only talking to me because he finds me sexually attractive


Of course he is. He doesn't know a thing about you other than your appearance, why else would he be talking to you? The notion that a man has to know you, appreciate you on a deep level and invest in you before he even approaches you is entitled in the extreme.


Imagine this:
Think of the women you personally find repulsive and/or just plain old uninteresting. Imagine that everyday of your life (since about the age of 12), these women hit on you while you go about the business of living. You buy a soda at the store, and the highly unattractive woman behind the counter makes some sort of comment about your penis. You go for your daily run and a trio of sweaty, unkempt ladies holler things about your ass. You go out with your guy pals and these random women in Von Dutch hats try to insert themselves forcibly into your conversations.

Soon, every time you see women looking at you, or approaching, you mentally tense up and brace for impact.

It's not that you don't like women. It's that most of your interactions with strange ones are based on their feeling entitled to objectify you. You grow to resent the idea that someone should feel comfortable coming up to you because you caused a stir in her pants. (And in this alternate universe, women dress in unsexy clothing and don't bother to do anything with their hair. So, unless they've won the genetic lottery, most of them look... well, you're not going to get interested based on their presentation.)

Welcome to being a young woman.


+1

This is, indeed, what attractive women have to deal with. It points directly to the difference in biological/psychological motivation of the genders. I will now give you the male perspective.

Imagine this:

Any man that you found remotely attractive causes you to feel aroused to some degree. This varies day to day and is strongest from age 12 to 24. This arousal causes you to act in ways that are short-sighted.1 When you reflect upon your actions later, you feel your choices were not your own and given similar situations you would act differently, however this will not be the case.

You are assigned a work study partner for science class and find him attractive. This causes your to be constantly distracted and basically a horrid study partner. You may even find yourself propositioning this man even though it's counter to your own goals of getting a good grade in science class should it cause a falling out between you. You suddenly realize that this man must think you are some kind of creep.

You will continue to find yourself distracted daily by thoughts of men at random times. To varying degrees this will inhibit your ability to live your life as you choose. You will also find some men who will use your attraction as a means to manipulate you. Knowing your weakness these men will intentionally provoke your aroused state in order to force you to make bad decisions that benefit them. Blinded by your own short-sightedness, you will not be able to extract yourself from this manipulation. Other will point out this manipulation but even if outside of the moment you realize it's there, when the man reasserts your arousal you will not be able to remember you realization.

Welcome to being a young man.

1 - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25197962/
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby ishkabibble » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:53 pm UTC

ATairov wrote: Haven't met anybody I've really 'clicked' with on campus. Still not sure how this whole 'courting' process works. :p
It probably doesn't help that the whole thing comes more naturally to me online, where (as I'm sure you've guessed) I'm much cooler, more competent, and therefore more confident.
Not sure what to do. Probably some online matchmaking service might help. Aside from being underage, I don't like the atmosphere of clubs, dances or bars.


Are you involved in any face-to-face type groups/teams? That is THE best way to meet people - in high school, college, nursing homes, whatever. If there's nothing you currently do, then pick something you've always wanted to learn. And it's ok to not stick with the first activity to pick: shop around until you find an activity/group of people you like. In fact, you may end up in an activity you would never have thought of, just because you like the people involved.

Through a few random circumstances, I ended up on the public speech team in college. It is probably the single most fortuitous event in my life. Yes, I developed confidence and speaking skills and a scholarship for grad school blah blah blah, but the BEST part about the activity was the chance to meet so many people. I met SO many people: tons of Friends, and quite a few More Than Friends. We were all nerds of stripe or another, thrown together in the same space for a few days, engaged in the same kind of activity. If you wanted to avoid meeting people, it required willful, concentrated effort on your part. Joining the Speech Team was THE reason my college experience was so much better than my high school experience.

So, maybe not the Speech Team for you, but join SOMETHING that involves being around other people (and resume-padding clubs that meet once a semester DON'T COUNT.) And do it with the intention of having fun - if you're honestly enjoying yourself, all the love and sex stuff will fall into place.

Also...
ATairov wrote:I've already told her my intention to break up with her over this. She decided to stay with me anyway until then. I know it sounds manipulative...


If you threatened to break up with her with the intention of getting her to hang around....that is manipulative. If you did it because you aren't getting what you need and are unhappy....that's standing up for yourself and good for you.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Nicole88 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:00 pm UTC

ATairov wrote:
Nicole88 wrote:...
Welcome to being a young woman.


Keep in mind that this is in part due to the idea that the man should be the one ask the woman. That means men do most the asking, because society expects this of them, and mean can't rely on a woman to ask if the woman genuinely is interested in them. Women don't want rejection either, of course, although women can lean on society's expectations (or perhaps feel because of society's expectations that they have to *get* the man to ask them, which is terribly inconvenient; I understand that in some areas it's considered taboo for the woman to ask) and leave men to the do the asking. I'm not saying this excuses jerks, of course.


Yes, but men also expect you to be interested in them... just because they're attracted to you. Take a number, dude. And they don't want to have to make an effort to look attractive either!

I mean, gentlemen, you're hitting on someone who knows absolutely nothing about you: she owes you nothing. And that someone is usually pretty cute, so either you need to look like Johnny Depp circa 1985, or you'd better be able to immediately demonstrate an absolutely killer personality. Otherwise, you're just one of the 15 schlubs hitting on her that day.

Failing both of those things, get thee to a friend who can vouch for you and fix you up with their hot pal. Hitting on strange women successfully is for the hot and/or charismatic.

It just annoys me that men are always "Oh, women don't like sex! They're all about relationships!" when most of you aren't even fucking trying! Of course we're more prone to wanting a relationship before sex: we have to wait for your inner beauty to come out, because 99% of you are dressed like lumps.
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Aetius » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:03 pm UTC

Nicole88 wrote:Imagine this:
Think of the women you personally find repulsive and/or just plain old uninteresting. Imagine that everyday of your life (since about the age of 12), these women hit on you while you go about the business of living. You buy a soda at the store, and the highly unattractive woman behind the counter makes some sort of comment about your penis. You go for your daily run and a trio of sweaty, unkempt ladies holler things about your ass. You go out with your guy pals and these random women in Von Dutch hats try to insert themselves forcibly into your conversations.

Soon, every time you see women looking at you, or approaching, you mentally tense up and brace for impact.

It's not that you don't like women. It's that most of your interactions with strange ones are based on their feeling entitled to objectify you. You grow to resent the idea that someone should feel comfortable coming up to you because you caused a stir in her pants. (And in this alternate universe, women dress in unsexy clothing and don't bother to do anything with their hair. So, unless they've won the genetic lottery, most of them look... well, you're not going to get interested based on their presentation.)

Welcome to being a young woman.


Replace "sex" with "help on homework" and that was my youth. And what I ultimately realized is that as inconvenient as it may be for me to have been propositioned as lab partner by the dumbasses of the world, what was the alternative? To expect them to simply concede the fact that they're utter failures and go do the lab on their own because no one would ever want to be their lab partner? Or to accept that they have a perfectly viable social need, and my genetic good fortune, while not entitling them to a share of it should I not wish to give it, certainly doesn't entitle me to heap scorn upon them.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby ATairov » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:05 pm UTC

ishkabibble wrote:Also...
ATairov wrote:I've already told her my intention to break up with her over this. She decided to stay with me anyway until then. I know it sounds manipulative...


If you threatened to break up with her with the intention of getting her to hang around....that is manipulative. If you did it because you aren't getting what you need and are unhappy....that's standing up for yourself and good for you.


It's the latter. Although I still try to find out why she feels that way, I don't think I can change it. The only thing we really argue about is software development.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby setzer777 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:13 pm UTC

neoliminal wrote:Imagine this:

Any man that you found remotely attractive causes you to feel aroused to some degree. This varies day to day and is strongest from age 12 to 24. This arousal causes you to act in ways that are short-sighted.1 When you reflect upon your actions later, you feel your choices were not your own and given similar situations you would act differently, however this will not be the case.

You are assigned a work study partner for science class and find him attractive. This causes your to be constantly distracted and basically a horrid study partner. You may even find yourself propositioning this man even though it's counter to your own goals of getting a good grade in science class should it cause a falling out between you. You suddenly realize that this man must think you are some kind of creep.

You will continue to find yourself distracted daily by thoughts of men at random times. To varying degrees this will inhibit your ability to live your life as you choose. You will also find some men who will use your attraction as a means to manipulate you. Knowing your weakness these men will intentionally provoke your aroused state in order to force you to make bad decisions that benefit them. Blinded by your own short-sightedness, you will not be able to extract yourself from this manipulation. Other will point out this manipulation but even if outside of the moment you realize it's there, when the man reasserts your arousal you will not be able to remember you realization.

Welcome to being a young man.

1 - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25197962/


Eh, I don't like the implication of loss of free will. I am a young man with quite active hormones, but that never *forced* me to perform actions or act like a moron. So unless I really am some sort of enlightened bastion of willpower, I have to conclude that it is perfectly possible to not creep out a woman/be manipulated/be stupidly short-sighted even when very attracted to someone.
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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby lihan161051 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:14 pm UTC

rubber314chicken wrote:
Comic JK wrote:I've been told many times that women think this way (often by xkcd itself). But I'm still not sure it's not wishful thinking.


Yea. But it might be biased if it is XKCD women telling you this.


I would suspect that XKCD women are outliers in many, many ways. Some in very neat ways.

But that would be creepy. So I won't say anything.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby lihan161051 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:16 pm UTC

finity wrote:
joee wrote:Also, sad comic randall. /me vows to talk to cute boys in trains more often. If only there were trains in my city...


We like that. It's often hard to tell if the cute girls I randomly talk to are just being nice, or are interested. When they give me that "you're a psycho" look, however, it's very easy to tell what they're thinking.


Combination of anomalous body/facial language and uncalibrated perception of those of others means I'm never sure, myself.

I've suspected for some time that the "I'm attracted" expression and the "You're a psycho" expression are in fact confusingly similar to the untrained eye, as well, which doesn't help.

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby ATairov » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:17 pm UTC

Nicole88 wrote:...
It just annoys me that men are always "Oh, women don't like sex! They're all about relationships!" when most of you aren't even fucking trying! Of course we're more prone to wanting a relationship before sex: we have to wait for your inner beauty to come out, because 99% of you are dressed like lumps.


I'd dress more fashionably -- if I thought someone would care. I don't really know what looks good on men, just what looks like a trainwreck and what doesn't look like a trainwreck. I keep clean and try not to look like a trainwreck, but that's about it. Like I said, I don't know what makes men attractive to women, because I can't understand why women are attracted to men. (not for lack of trying) Women also have more options in appearance available to them.

As for whether guys feel entitled, I wouldn't know. I think you may be projecting what you think they feel rather than what they actually feel there. It probably varies a lot man for man. I had a female avatar online for a while, and it was flattering to get the attention at first, though I generally got less than other people. (Supposedly I'm intimidating there to people I don't know. Maybe it's because my first name is "Agent"?)

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby aquilo » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:21 pm UTC

myoxisbroken wrote:To reiterate: man + sexual attraction to me - self-worth + the idea that a woman is necessary to validate his existence - actually caring about who I am as a person = creepy.


How much must a guy deviate from this equation to avoid being creepy? I, for example, do care about who women are as people, I am genuinely interested in chatting with them. I do feel that a woman is necessary to validate my existence and give me self-worth, however, this insecurity is unjustified because I am actually a fairly accomplished person. Am I creepy?

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Re: "Creepy" Discussion

Postby Aetius » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:24 pm UTC

aquilo wrote:How much must a guy deviate from this equation to avoid being creepy? I, for example, do care about who women are as people, I am genuinely interested in chatting with them. I do feel that a woman is necessary to validate my existence and give me self-worth, however, this insecurity is unjustified because I am actually a fairly accomplished person. Am I creepy?


Yes.

But honestly, you could have written anything and with that avatar it still would have come off creepy.


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