0644: "Surgery"

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msimswil
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby msimswil » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:56 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:Actually, bone would be a problem


Ooops. Busted!

(Exits rapidly, clutching medical license from fake-documents.com)
It seems that on April 29th 2010 I was in bed... with your sister.

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BioTube
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby BioTube » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:57 pm UTC

@Vista lover:
It's Windows - it sucks by definition. Fifteen years is more than enough to develop an OS that doesn't surrender to the French, yet MS still insists on shipping heaps of buggy code.

@Mr. Wants-drivers-from-manufacturers:
Windows users have to install tons of crap to get drivers; do you really want that?
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.

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Milchmann
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Milchmann » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:01 pm UTC

The Title-Text made my day. I constantly try to cover the Vista-Certified-Logo on my mp3-player with a black waterproof pen, but it just keeps reappearing :D

Regarding software in your brain I recommend the movie one point o.

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby LSN » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:18 pm UTC

I lol'd at the alt.

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Mr. Burke
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mr. Burke » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:50 pm UTC

BioTube wrote:@Vista lover:
It's Windows - it sucks by definition. Fifteen years is more than enough to develop an OS that doesn't surrender to the French, yet MS still insists on shipping heaps of buggy code.

You must be an arts major. Nothing sucks “per definition.” Would you kindly provide examples of buggy code that Microsoft insists on shipping?

Server 2008 R2 is a fine OS, I'd like to add.
@Mr. Wants-drivers-from-manufacturers:
Windows users have to install tons of crap to get drivers; do you really want that?

What ton of crap are you referring to here?

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neoliminal
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:56 pm UTC

A friend of mine pointed out the problem with hardware implants.

They are outdated too quickly.

So you get wired up, get the surgery, have your nice new Eyes put in... you know, the ones that double the resolution and give you views in the infra-red? Great. Two weeks later your friend is laughing at you because he got the 20X resolution with multi-spectral feed and wireless porn RSS. Problem is you can't update yours unless you get it removed... ah body trauma.

oh, "hi joee!"
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Optimystic » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:19 pm UTC

Could we stop the Vista-wank in this thread? I interpreted the alt-text simply to mean that he, as a Linux-lover, would not like to be labelled "Vista-ready" for personal reasons. Not as a slam against Vista.

mariusk
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby mariusk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:25 pm UTC

I suppose the xkcd community have heard of this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... th-tongues

Imagine a working USB port or 802.11n chip...

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BioTube
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby BioTube » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:28 pm UTC

Mr. Burke wrote:You must be an arts major.
Nope. I'm pretty sure if I was that type I wouldn't be wondering how the hell I passed senior English.
Nothing sucks “per definition.”
A vacuum.
Would you kindly provide examples of buggy code that Microsoft insists on shipping?
Windows, Office, Internet Explorer, etc. Just about any software from Redmond has a disproportionate number of security problems.
Server 2008 R2 is a fine OS, I'd like to add.
So fine the internet runs of Linux?
What ton of crap are you referring to here?
The hundreds of unnecessary "helper" applications.
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0_o
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby 0_o » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:33 pm UTC

WAIT

Just before usb 3.0 is released?! He will have an old port by the time any software to control it is written!

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Mr. Burke
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mr. Burke » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:51 pm UTC

BioTube wrote:
Mr. Burke wrote:You must be an arts major.
Nope. I'm pretty sure if I was that type I wouldn't be wondering how the hell I passed senior English.
So you're a language arts major?
Nothing sucks “per definition.”
A vacuum.
No, that's because of the pressure difference.
Would you kindly provide examples of buggy code that Microsoft insists on shipping?
Windows, Office, Internet Explorer, etc. Just about any software from Redmond has a disproportionate number of security problems.
Define disproportionate. Provide numbers.
Server 2008 R2 is a fine OS, I'd like to add.
So fine the internet runs of Linux?
IIS has a market share of almost 30%. Then there are the Windows hosts with Apache (or so I heard) and FreeBSD and other hosts.
What ton of crap are you referring to here?
The hundreds of unnecessary "helper" applications.
The what now? You mean those apps that let you control the drivers' behavior without recompiling?

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby FoolishOwl » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:21 pm UTC

What would always bug me when I'd read cyberpunk -- I'd be really, really anxious about keeping those sockets clean. And I'd be seriously irritated if the cap got lost.

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:30 pm UTC

Mr. Burke wrote:You must be an arts major. Nothing sucks “per definition.” Would you kindly provide examples of buggy code that Microsoft insists on shipping?


Two words: "Backwards compatibility."

I became convinced that (Win 9x compatible) Windows could not be secured when the WMF exploit was discovered. The code worked as intended: It was an image format that allowed the embedding of executable code; by design. The only way to mitigate such issues is to release an OS much more like Windows 2000, but with a "sandbox" for running your legacy code. Even then, the security vulnerabilities are still present; just limited to data in the sandbox.

If you want a specific example: ActiveX has always been a bad idea. It allows web-developers to push arbitrary code to your web-browser. The "Fail-safe?": The code is signed by some authority; if the code is found to be malicious, the key is revoked. There have been documented problems with almost every step of that process.

Optimystic wrote:Could we stop the Vista-wank in this thread? I interpreted the alt-text simply to mean that he, as a Linux-lover, would not like to be labelled "Vista-ready" for personal reasons. Not as a slam against Vista.


I interpreted it as a slam against hardware designed for Vista, to the detriment of all others.

Edit:
"Mr. Burke wrote:The what now? You mean those apps that let you control the drivers' behavior without recompiling?


"You are doing it wrong." (Hint: Those apps mainly just twerk the registry.)
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Mr. Burke
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mr. Burke » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:48 pm UTC

phillipsjk wrote:
Mr. Burke wrote:You must be an arts major. Nothing sucks “per definition.” Would you kindly provide examples of buggy code that Microsoft insists on shipping?

Two words: "Backwards compatibility."

Because breaking apps is superior!
I became convinced that (Win 9x compatible) Windows could not be secured when the WMF exploit was discovered. The code worked as intended: It was an image format that allowed the embedding of executable code; by design. The only way to mitigate such issues is to release an OS much more like Windows 2000, but with a "sandbox" for running your legacy code. Even then, the security vulnerabilities are still present; just limited to data in the sandbox.
The WMF bug is fixed. Security usually wins against compatibility, even if that means breaking old apps. Mistakes have to be found before they are fixed, of course.
If you want a specific example: ActiveX has always been a bad idea. It allows web-developers to push arbitrary code to your web-browser. The "Fail-safe?": The code is signed by some authority; if the code is found to be malicious, the key is revoked. There have been documented problems with almost every step of that process.
Same goes for extensions for other browsers. If you allow execution (you're asked these days), it's your own fault.
"Mr. Burke wrote:The what now? You mean those apps that let you control the drivers' behavior without recompiling?
"You are doing it wrong." (Hint: Those apps mainly just twerk the registry.)

And users have no business twerking the registry directly. How else do you propose to change these settings then?

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arbivark
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby arbivark » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:55 pm UTC


Fritzed
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Fritzed » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:02 pm UTC

Installing Vista in your brain is a lot like taking crack. Everything is colorful and exciting right until the inevitable crash.

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:11 pm UTC

Mr. Burke wrote:Because breaking apps is superior!
I became convinced that (Win 9x compatible) Windows could not be secured when the WMF exploit was discovered. The code worked as intended: It was an image format that allowed the embedding of executable code; by design. The only way to mitigate such issues is to release an OS much more like Windows 2000, but with a "sandbox" for running your legacy code. Even then, the security vulnerabilities are still present; just limited to data in the sandbox.
The WMF bug is fixed. Security usually wins against compatibility, even if that means breaking old apps. Mistakes have to be found before they are fixed, of course.

I suggested a solution: a "sandbox", or Virtual Machine if you will. The main problem is that the DOS file system had no concept of user or group permissions. Many, many apps were written that assume write access they really shouldn't have.

The WMF exploit did not exploit a "bug": it exploited a file format designed for when the network was assumed to be trusted. You can check for all the buffer-overflows (broken locks) you want, but it won't do any good if the door is wide open.

"Mr. Burke wrote:
phillipsjk wrote:
"Mr. Burke wrote:The what now? You mean those apps that let you control the drivers' behavior without recompiling?
"You are doing it wrong." (Hint: Those apps mainly just twerk the registry.)

And users have no business twerking the registry directly. How else do you propose to change these settings then?


You can almost tell I don't like the registry. The *ix method is not much better (for the "average" user): editing text files. My point was there is a large leap from a simplified GUI to "(controlling) the drivers behaviour (through) recompiling."
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westrim
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby westrim » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:34 pm UTC

BioTube wrote:

Mr. Burke wrote:

Optimystic wrote:

phillipsjk wrote:

Fritzed wrote:


Wheeee! I started an internet flamewar argument spirited discussion!

Fritzed wrote:Installing Vista in your brain is a lot like taking crack. Everything is colorful and exciting right until the inevitable crash.

I have a Vista laptop. It has run for a month and a half at least once, through being put to sleep, moved, awakened, repeat every day, with half a dozen programs being downloaded/ installed System scans, registry tweaks, the whole gamut of things a semi advanced user can and will do. And it was the only computer I was using. Wanna run that "LOL Windows crashes all the time!" BS bullshit past me again? It hasn't been that way since millennium edition if you are at ALL competent.

So guys; yes, backwards compatibility opens security holes, but it's also the reason why most businesses choose Windows because its the only OS that will take that leap for them. Apple just sits in a "you bring it to us", then gloats about their eliteness, and gnu-linux... is gnu-linux. Microsoft is the only company making an OS to try and serve absolutely everyone, whatever they need. Those hundreds of apps? I've used about half of them and if you don't have the hard drive space in this day and age to handle them you just fail terminally.

Oh, and you wanna talk about legacy bugs, remember the one they found in the foundation of the ENTIRE INTERNET a couple years ago that damn near broke it? Windows isn't exactly alone in these issues. And it's part of the reason that Vista was a complete reboot of their OS design.

But keep going, this is interesting.

dean.menezes
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby dean.menezes » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:30 pm UTC

Mr. Burke wrote:
BioTube wrote:@Vista lover:
It's Windows - it sucks by definition. Fifteen years is more than enough to develop an OS that doesn't surrender to the French, yet MS still insists on shipping heaps of buggy code.

You must be an arts major. Nothing sucks “per definition.” Would you kindly provide examples of buggy code that Microsoft insists on shipping.


Not the definition of "suck", the definition of "Windows", which is apparantly "an operating system made by Microsoft which sucks" or something to that effect.

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umop ap!sdn
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Re: neuro-compatability

Postby umop ap!sdn » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:32 pm UTC

I enjoyed this one, was just having a discussion with a friend who recently upgraded his rig, wanting to know if he would be ok running "7" when it comes out.
Also I love the idea of adding computer stuff to my body, seems like it would be a good idea. What's the worst that could happen?


odie wrote:i wonder how much storage space and ram my brain has.

80GB... 160 with a doubler

westrim wrote:TL;DR Stop the blind hatred of Vista; it cheeses me off, man.

Did you just LOL?
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Mr. Burke
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mr. Burke » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:55 pm UTC

westrim wrote:
BioTube wrote:

Mr. Burke wrote:

Optimystic wrote:

phillipsjk wrote:

Fritzed wrote:


Wheeee! I started an internet flamewar argument spirited discussion!

I'd offer “academic discourse.”
And it's part of the reason that Vista was a complete reboot of their OS design.

And it can still run the majority of applications written and compiled for Windows NT 3.1 (which came out in 1993). Yes, even the x64 version. About how many Linux apps can you say the same?

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littlelj
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby littlelj » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:29 pm UTC

I really liked this comic. I laughed.

My firm is sticking with XP until 7 is thoroughly service-packed, so I am aware that Vista is not highly regarded. We have 7 at home (Beta? Release Candidate? I have no idea - it's not me that's the techy one and stayed up until silly o'clock to download the latest release the second it came out) and it's so brilliant.

And then you feckers started whinging about boring nothing in particular and spoilt the joke.

Stop.
It.

plsthx
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:46 pm UTC

Mr. Burke wrote:
And it's part of the reason that Vista was a complete reboot of their OS design.

And it can still run the majority of applications written and compiled for Windows NT 3.1 (which came out in 1993). Yes, even the x64 version. About how many Linux apps can you say the same?


Am I allowed to install the a.out compatibility libraries first? ;)
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:59 pm UTC

Fritzed wrote:Installing Vista in your brain is a lot like taking crack. Everything is colorful and exciting right until the inevitable crash.


Wouldn't it be nice if just once the crash was colourful and exciting as well? :|
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Mr. Burke
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mr. Burke » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:04 pm UTC

phillipsjk wrote:
Mr. Burke wrote:
And it's part of the reason that Vista was a complete reboot of their OS design.

And it can still run the majority of applications written and compiled for Windows NT 3.1 (which came out in 1993). Yes, even the x64 version. About how many Linux apps can you say the same?


Am I allowed to install the a.out compatibility libraries first? ;)

Try. Not that Windows needs additional libraries to do that ...

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Sonic132
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Sonic132 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:17 pm UTC

To those defending Vista:
I have had a laptop, bought from Dell, that came loaded with vista.
It ran fine for about 6 months before Windows Genuine Advantage, which installed itself without asking me, decided my installation was not legitimate.
It worked well enough after that for weeks by just closing the annoying box every time I logged in...

But then it just stopped logging in at all. You'd click the user you want to log in as, and it would start logging in, but before the taskbar and icons (aka explorer.exe) could load, it popped up the by now familiar "your windows is not a legitimate copy and you may be a victim of software fraud!" box and just stopped loading anything else.
The box itself offered a windows site to go to (which happened to be the windows site that just runs the Windows Genuine Advantage test), but it refused to go to that either, it wouldn't even launch my browser.

Eventually I just got tired of windows' buggyness and reformatted the entire hard drive and installed XP. It worked fine after that until recently when the sound card failed, and then worked fine with an external sound card until the graphics card died.
Image

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Mr. Burke
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mr. Burke » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:19 pm UTC

Sonic132 wrote:To those defending Vista:
I have had a laptop, bought from Dell, that came loaded with vista.
It ran fine for about 6 months before Windows Genuine Advantage, which installed itself without asking me, decided my installation was not legitimate.
It worked well enough after that for weeks by just closing the annoying box every time I logged in...

And what had Dell to say about that?

Story
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Story » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:50 pm UTC

I just hate the User Account Control.

If you're going to make a security feature, please don't make it so onerous and annoying that you are basically forced to turn it off to get anything done. Did it ever occur to Microsoft that people might want to use directories other then C:\Users\Root\SomeOther\Random\Really\Long\Filepath? What on earth made them think that having to enter a password and click through several prompts everytime you want to rename a file is a good idea?


The redesigned Windows Explore is incredibly grating also.

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Mr. Burke
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mr. Burke » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:09 pm UTC

Story wrote:I just hate the User Account Control.

It sure beats Run As.
If you're going to make a security feature, please don't make it so onerous and annoying that you are basically forced to turn it off to get anything done. Did it ever occur to Microsoft that people might want to use directories other then C:\Users\Root\SomeOther\Random\Really\Long\Filepath? What on earth made them think that having to enter a password and click through several prompts everytime you want to rename a file is a good idea?

And how often do Linux users rename anything outside /home? Or do anything outside /home, for that matter? What are you doing there, anyway?? (And if you do indeed have a legitimate reason to muck around there, adjust the permissions. If you don't know how to do that, you probably shouldn't be there anyway.)

By the way, UAC is a usability feature, not a security feature.

Benson
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Benson » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:29 pm UTC

westrim wrote:
Randall wrote: Alt text (suck it purists!): Damn. Not only did he not install it, he sutured a 'Vista-Ready' sticker onto my arm.

Brooklynxman wrote:If Vista makes him stop attempting to modify his bodies.....software (errrr.......what happens when you get a Trojan in your brain anyway?) then I'm all for it. Then again......Vista *shivers*

Roivas wrote:Well technically he is Vista ready, he's not compatible with it and no drivers will ever be made to support it. That's pretty damn prepared in my book.

mjc0961 wrote:Hah, the alt-text about the Vista Ready sticker had me laughing my ass off. Very nice.


You know, all the Vista hate that persists to this day really cheeses me off. Contrary to Conventional Wisdom, it is NOT a bad OS. In fact, as someone who extensively used 98, 2000 (goddamn school), XP, and Vista, I can say with confidence that Vista was the best of those. Yes, better than XP.
Best for someone who sees playing DVDs as a hardware support issue and one 6-week run proof of stability? Maybe. It's not the best for me in any region except touch/stylus support.

Price/ resources? Why the hell would you buy a new OS by itself and not get a computer with it preinstalled, and then bitch about it needing more resources than your system has? If you have the money to get a new OS, you have the money to get the damned RAM to support it. If you're building a system, the same logic applies. Otherwise, keep using your current rig until its too out moded and stop bitching. I used 98 at home until 2004. Oh, and sniggering Mac users, congratulations on that new 1500 hundred dollar laptop with 2 gigs of ram.
Lemme see... you're saying because my old laptop-cum-file-server (a 550 MHz K6-2) is over 10 years old, I should be forced to run Linux 2.2? Sorry, but it's been running slackware 12.2 just fine for almost 3 months (kernel 2.6.27, IIRC), and is due for an upgrade to slack 13 / Linux 2.6.29.6 soon as I get time. New OSes shouldn't require new hardware, and whether or not anyone "has the money" is beside the point; bloat is bloat. Yes, some new features (such as bloody eye-candy) will require more resources, but you should get similar performance on the same hardware once you disable those. With Vista, you don't.

I'm sure I'm missing some other bit of CW that I'd be happy to shoot down if someone mentions it.

Yeah, you missed the bit where the I/O and/or FS system is complete trash. Try making two copies at once from the same drive, they'll drop to about 1/5 the speed -- add a third and watch your system grind to an unresponsive thrashing halt, as all disk I/O becomes practically impossible. (Then you realize just how many processes have incidental disk accesses, and you realize that maybe the across-the board (rather than only in disk-bound processes) performance boost some people have reported with good SSDs might not be placebo after all, use another machine to look up SSD prices, specs, and fragmentation issues, and come back an hour later to see your 3 five-minute copies still busily churning your HDD around...) While I haven't run them in head-to-head, same-machine, same-workload tests, I've seen enough to know XP isn't as bad, 2k wasn't as bad, and Linux is better than any of them (I did do a Linux/XP head-to-head once; don't remember how much it won by, though). I've heard the "good excuse" that the I/O system was completely retuned for a next-gen FS in Vista, but the FS wasn't done on time, so it's badly mismatched to NTFS; don't know if it's true or not, but even if so, until they deliver a service pack with that filesystem, Vista sucks at I/O.

I admit I haven't looked into the issue much. Since I became aware of the issue, I just queue up multiple cps in tcsh (yeah, I can't use Windows without Cygwin... lame, I know. :)) when I need to leave assorted copies going, so it's entirely possible this isn't really Vista's fault; if you really think you can shoot it down, feel free to. But I've heard other credible reports of the same thing, so I doubt it.

Mr. Burke wrote:
BioTube wrote:
Mr. Burke wrote:What ton of crap are you referring to here?
The hundreds of unnecessary "helper" applications.
The what now? You mean those apps that let you control the drivers' behavior without recompiling?

I think he meant those apps that let you control the drivers' behavior without editing plain-text configuration files. As phillipsjk pointed out further down, they mainly twerk the registry, but the difference is, the registry settings available are usually completely undocumented, whereas config files are usually documented anywhere from acceptably to superbly. (Why don't vendors ship documentation for the registry interface in lieu of cheesy config utilities? I guess two reasons: the registry must be always presented as a dangerous, scary wasteland so people don't blame you when they fat-finger their system into oblivion (naturally without having backed it up or taken any other logical steps to recover), and it's cheaper to provide a crap program that 90% will accept and most of the other 10% will work around without involving you, rather than trying to provide support to the functionally illiterate 20% who can't deal with documentation (and really should find someone else to fix their computer...).

So in Windows, you wind up stuck with a bunch of individual configuration utilities, and this duplication of functionality brings inconsistencies and more bugs; you also get the option of circumventing this layer to work around the bugs, in which case you face a minor reverse-engineering problem for each utility. Can't begin to imagine why BioTube would call that a ton of crap...

While UNIX has its share of "problems" for casual users (IMO mainly related to the greater learning required to acquire the illusion of mastery), the prevailing configuration method is hardly among them. As one might expect from a research project whose first outside uses were as an SDK...

westrim wrote:
Fritzed wrote:Installing Vista in your brain is a lot like taking crack. Everything is colorful and exciting right until the inevitable crash.

I have a Vista laptop. It has run for a month and a half at least once, through being put to sleep, moved, awakened, repeat every day, with half a dozen programs being downloaded/ installed System scans, registry tweaks, the whole gamut of things a semi advanced user can and will do. And it was the only computer I was using. Wanna run that "¡This cheese is burning me! Windows crashes all the time!" BS bullshit past me again? It hasn't been that way since millennium edition if you are at ALL competent.

"It routinely runs for a month and a half" is hardly a recommendation that it doesn't crash often, let alone that it made it "at least once". Yes, I get that it's a laptop, so you're not going to set any uptime records against servers; my Linux laptops don't get any better uptime, and frequently much worse (I'm kernel-happy, but too lazy to get kexec working), so I'm not criticizing that measurement as proving Vista is crash-happy.

However, your apparent belief that one 45-day stint proves something is not only amusing, but a testament to the lowered expectations caused by the hardware and software instability prevalent in mass-market computers and OSes today. It sucks so continuously and uniformly, you don't even recognize it as suckage anymore.

FWIW, my experience is that 2K and Vista are tied, both a bit more stable than XP, which in turn is a bit more stable than NT4. Of course they're all way ahead of the DOS line (9x & ME), but (Godwin's law aside) that's like saying "way better than Hitler".

Mr. Burke wrote:
westrim wrote:And it's part of the reason that Vista was a complete reboot of their OS design.

And it can still run the majority of applications written and compiled for Windows NT 3.1 (which came out in 1993). Yes, even the x64 version. About how many Linux apps can you say the same?
An interesting point, really. However, it's hard to argue exactly, because it is trivial to recompile the kernel for a.out support (p.s. random thread ninjas, it's not a library. :P It's a kernel option, and if your distro compiles it at all, it's probably as a module) and dig up appropriate library versions, but I think the popular distros are out-of-the-box elf-only, and I know they lack a lot in old libc, etc. Kernel-wise, almost all apps from kernel 2.0 forward at least should be fine; 1.x was before my time, but I'd expect them to be mostly fine, too. Obviously hardware-specific stuff would be more limited; I know, for example, the interfaces for USB had a big shift from 2.2 to 2.4; however, the same is true in NT.

However, the whole notion of binary compatibility is unimportant for most apps used under Linux, and especially old stuff, since the closed stuff is rare enough now (on most systems, there's the nVidia drivers, Flash, Adobe Reader, some video codecs, and a handful of games), and even rarer in the early years. When all your software is open source, trying to use an old binary is absolutely pointless; source compatibility is good enough, and anyway (even with NT -- unless you can run an Alpha binary on your x64 NT5.x?) it's the only meaningful compatibility across multiple architectures. And Linux has quite good source compatibility with itself, and as long as you stay fairly clear of the kernel, with other UNIXen, too.

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ohki
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby ohki » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:07 pm UTC

Looks like the potential of a neuron membrane ranges from about -70 mV to 30 mV. So, powered USB is out, unless you can do something like use blood flow to power a tiny generator. -10 mV to 10 mV is low-speed USB (1.5 Mbit/s), not sure what the switching speed of a neuron is. USB is a pretty complex standard though. Of course, voltage isn't that big of an issue if you just build a voltage converter into the connector. Still, I'd think it would be very hard to sync a person to a clock, unless you could find a relation between nerve signal frequency and heart rate or there's some inherent rate. Maybe some sort of UART? Sure it's lower speed, but it's a much simpler starting point and you could always interface it to other protocols.

Wireless would be awesome, but I doubt we have enough power in us to pump out a good radio signal. Well, unless we manage to tap the heat from homeostasis...
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Invertin » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:23 pm UTC

Well personally I'd prefer a phone plug so I can call my friends with my brain.

...I wonder what would happen if you tried to download porn into your brain? This looks like a job for science!

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:51 pm UTC

ohki wrote:Looks like the potential of a neuron membrane ranges from about -70 mV to 30 mV. So, powered USB is out, unless you can do something like use blood flow to power a tiny generator. -10 mV to 10 mV is low-speed USB (1.5 Mbit/s), not sure what the switching speed of a neuron is. USB is a pretty complex standard though. Of course, voltage isn't that big of an issue if you just build a voltage converter into the connector. Still, I'd think it would be very hard to sync a person to a clock, unless you could find a relation between nerve signal frequency and heart rate or there's some inherent rate. Maybe some sort of UART? Sure it's lower speed, but it's a much simpler starting point and you could always interface it to other protocols.


I was not able to read through the whole spec yet, but I am pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about with respect to the USB standard itself. In any case, having a stable clock is not that important: USB devices wait for the host to request the next chunk data. The real problem is that our nerves ignore steady information. While a clock signal may be interesting enough for the nerves on the actual interface, the constant stream of information will cause the nerves dealing with the data at a more "abstract" level to tune it out. I guess the implication is that it would be like book learning, only more tedious.

That said, I think your idea of getting electricity form the circulatory system has merit. The UART idea has merit too: most people are not good at remembering low-level stuff like which specific block we want off the disk. A UART could keep track of a lot of the "housekeeping" so that USB devices are accessed on a more abstract level.

PS: I think Benson is correct about a.out compatibility being a kernel compile-time option. I think going from a.out to ELF was a "forklift" upgrade with the libraries being changed over at the same time. As for burke's challenge: I don't even know where to find Linux binaries that old. Linux was probably in the Alpha (or beta) stages at that point. Possible loophole: What if I can use Linux to run Windows NT 3.1 binaries that old? Wine does better (not) emulating older versions of Windows. I don't see Windows running Linux programs without recompilation. (Cgywin often requires no source-code modification).
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby BioTube » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:55 am UTC

First off, the Linux kernel's existing userland interface(ignoring drivers) hasn't changed in some time:
Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:I have old programs that were built on a pre 0.9something kernel that still work just fine on the latest 2.6 kernel release.
Second, when I spoke of crap included with the drivers, I was referring to everything that's not necessary to configure anything(like a program to connect to a wireless network, despite Windows coming with a perfectly serviceable one). Third, Windows's basic design was flawed from the beginning, with no real effort made since then to fix things.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Steve the Pocket » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:14 am UTC

See, the way I understand it, the central nervous system is self-adapting. So in theory, rather than having to "program your brain" or whatever, you could just have some long-running system where certain impulses are sent to the port in conjunction with the same data being presented through some other stimuli. Gradually, your brain learns to associate the two, and eventually your brain can "read" the data it's being sent. It's like the thing where if you wear upside-down goggles for a couple days, your vision automatically flips over. Or the inverse of phantom limbs.
cephalopod9 wrote:Only on Xkcd can you start a topic involving Hitler and people spend the better part of half a dozen pages arguing about the quality of Operating Systems.

Baige.

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby 10nitro » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:31 am UTC

westrim wrote:You know, all the Vista hate that persists to this day really cheeses me off. Contrary to Conventional Wisdom, it is NOT a bad OS.


Yes, it is. All Operating Systems suck, some just suck less. And I can think of quite a few that suck less than Vista. Beyond being technically inferior to *nix, it loses especially because it is proprietary software.

westrim wrote:I'm sure I'm missing some other bit of CW that I'd be happy to shoot down if someone mentions it. The bottom line is that you DON'T judge an OS, especially one trying to buck the rut the company had been in for a dozen years design wise, by the first couple months; in fact, you shouldn't judge it until the first service pack. After that, fair game. And people forget this, but XP had all sorts of problems its first months too- opinions of it just didn't get set in stone during that time.

TL;DR Stop the blind hatred of Vista; it cheeses me off, man.

Currently I use *nix systems exclusively. However, my lappy came with Vista Home Premium installed. I allowed it to remain there in dual-boot, so that I'd have it if I needed Windows for anything. I kept it there maybe the first year, it only sucked slightly less by the end. I later had to reinstall it second semester last year for school purposes. Note that SP1 was out, but I saw no noticeable improvement, other than perhaps bootup speed. As soon as the year was over, `cat /dev/urandom > /dev/sda1' Not a byte of that shit was staying on my HDD.

And honestly I shouldn't have to wait that long for the system to be usable. I should have an entire new release in that time.

As a side note, that laptop came with a free printer. Vista-compatible drivers did not exist for the printer (they would be released in several months).
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby Mokele » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:00 am UTC

See, the way I understand it, the central nervous system is self-adapting. So in theory, rather than having to "program your brain" or whatever, you could just have some long-running system where certain impulses are sent to the port in conjunction with the same data being presented through some other stimuli. Gradually, your brain learns to associate the two, and eventually your brain can "read" the data it's being sent. It's like the thing where if you wear upside-down goggles for a couple days, your vision automatically flips over. Or the inverse of phantom limbs.


We've actually done that with monkeys - after implanting brain electrodes, and connecting those to a robot arm, monkeys could gradually learn to use the robot arm.

However, it required brain implants, which, IMHO, are unlikely to be a feasible route in humans due to the extreme difficulty of the surgery and the chances of serious problems.
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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby msimswil » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:50 am UTC

Goody. An OS fight. Release the raptors...!

It seems that Windows is the worst system in the world, apart from all the others. Reminds me of what Churchill said about democracy.

Oooh there's a product idea: Microsoft Democracy 2009.

ohki wrote:...powered USB is out, unless you can do something like use blood flow to power a tiny generator.

A circulatory system turbine would put additional stress on the heart, likely voiding your warranty. There's some adaptability there, but I'm mindful of what happened to two of my computers when I overloaded their power supplies.

Methinks a musculoskeletal generator, requiring everyone to exercise for one hour each day to recharge, would have synergistic benefits. Hopelessly lazy people can start an exercise trading scheme. Folks who are too busy (and likely morbidly obese) should re-prioritize or stay offline.
It seems that on April 29th 2010 I was in bed... with your sister.

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby westrim » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:39 am UTC

umop ap!sdn wrote:What's the worst that could happen?

You had to say it, didn't you?
umop ap!sdn wrote:
westrim wrote:TL;DR Stop the blind hatred of Vista; it cheeses me off, man.

Did you LOL?

Yes, but not in that sentence.

Mr. Burke wrote: I'd offer “academic discourse.”

That's good too.


littlelj wrote:I really liked this comic. I laughed.
My firm is sticking with XP until 7 is thoroughly service-packed, so I am aware that Vista is not highly regarded. We have 7 at home (Beta? Release Candidate? I have no idea - it's not me that's the techy one and stayed up until silly o'clock to download the latest release the second it came out) and it's so brilliant.
And then you feckers started whinging about boring nothing in particular and spoilt the joke.
Stop.
It.
plsthx

You forgot the "k", as in "plskthnx". But you are right. I only made the initial comment to see what would happen (Wait, does that make me a troll? I think it might. Dammit I only wanted a lively discussion!). And 7 is very very good, and solves most of the stuff that bugs even me about Vista (I tried it but didn't like tying up HD space partitioning it. And It only took an hour for me to download at 2 mbps). It is the 98 to Vista's 95. The XP to Vista's ME (I think). It's the second iteration that addresses the complaints.

neoliminal wrote:
Fritzed wrote:Installing Vista in your brain is a lot like taking crack. Everything is colorful and exciting right until the inevitable crash.

Wouldn't it be nice if just once the crash was colorful and exciting as well? :|

Hey, I like blue.

Sonic132 wrote:To those defending Vista:
I have had a laptop, bought from Dell, that came loaded with vista.
It ran fine for about 6 months before Windows Genuine Advantage, which installed itself without asking me, decided my installation was not legitimate.
It worked well enough after that for weeks by just closing the annoying box every time I logged in...
But then it just stopped logging in at all. You'd click the user you want to log in as, and it would start logging in, but before the taskbar and icons (aka explorer.exe) could load, it popped up the by now familiar "your windows is not a legitimate copy and you may be a victim of software fraud!" box and just stopped loading anything else.
The box itself offered a windows site to go to (which happened to be the windows site that just runs the Windows Genuine Advantage test), but it refused to go to that either, it wouldn't even launch my browser.
Eventually I just got tired of windows' buggyness and reformatted the entire hard drive and installed XP. It worked fine after that until recently when the sound card failed, and then worked fine with an external sound card until the graphics card died.

Wowsers. I see four or five issues here any one of which could have been solved and saved you, and none are Microsoft's fault. Lets make a list:
1. You bought a Dell.
2. And you never looked at the update permissions ever? It only asks about 5 times and the icons sits there on the taskbar until you decide.
3. Dell fked up the authentication, not MS, and you should have called them as soon as this came up.
4. You clicked away (presumably without reading, comprehending, or following) the notifications of the issue and that's MICROSOFTS fault?! WAT.
5.Again, didn't call Dell after it stopped logging you in.
6. Did you use Internet Explorer? It sucks (though IE8 is better), but that's what Windows goes through. I use FF, and they've gotten much better about browser support, but if you ever have issues with MSes site not coming up you need to go through IE.
7. Hardware shit sucks, but that's the manufacturers fault. Again, you bought a friggin Dell.

Story wrote:I just hate the User Account Control.
If you're going to make a security feature, please don't make it so onerous and annoying that you are basically forced to turn it off to get anything done. Did it ever occur to Microsoft that people might want to use directories other then C:\Users\Root\SomeOther\Random\Really\Long\Filepath? What on earth made them think that having to enter a password and click through several prompts every time you want to rename a file is a good idea?The redesigned Windows Explorer is incredibly grating also.

I just hate tomatoes. If you don't like Explorer, you can modify it, you know. Not too hard either. But that's okay, I hate Chrome's design. As for UAC, yes it's annoying and unfortunately they built it in too much to modify with updates. 7 takes care of it. But it wasn't exactly hard to turn off, so it's not really a big minus in my book since I didn't need to deal with it. And it's there for people like Sonic who click through stuff without looking at it, even if it massively backfired in that department.

Benson wrote:

EDIT: I had a whole long multi-segment response to his thoughts here, and even posted it. Took me a good half hour to write. But I've decided this is already long enough and was getting pretty annoyed at the end of it, so I'll just leave it out. If Benson wants to see, it he can message me.

BioTube wrote: Third, Windows's basic design was flawed from the beginning, with no real effort made since then to fix things.

I do believe I already mentioned the internet and that Vista was a complete redo, so nice try.

10nitro wrote:Yes, it is. All Operating Systems suck, some just suck less.

Jeez. With an attitude like that, how do you get anywhere in life? I'm not even going to bother.

msimswil wrote:Goody. An OS fight. Release the raptors...!
It seems that Windows is the worst system in the world, apart from all the others. Reminds me of what Churchill said about democracy.
Oooh there's a product idea: Microsoft Democracy 2009.

F-22s or dinos? Some people here could do with a good smartbombing (that is, bombardment by Smarties).
And you do have a point. I'd say Gnu-Linux is anarchy, with some fiefdoms and a couple monarchies thrown in. Apple is, of course, a dictatorship. Microsoft is a democracy which attempts to include everyone and anyone, and has a few missteps but largely succeeds at the goal of giving its citizens the freedom to do what they want, even if its stupid. But often it will be genius. The dictatorship sniffs and calls them uncivilized idiot rabble and the anarchists sniff and call them uncultured peons unaware of the heels on their necks. The members of the democracy know that their system may have more flaws than the others, but those flaws are better than the alternative.

Dang this is long. I may have outdone Benson. Sorry everyone.

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Re: "Surgery" Discussion

Postby ohki » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:00 am UTC

phillipsjk wrote:I was not able to read through the whole spec yet, but I am pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about with respect to the USB standard itself. In any case, having a stable clock is not that important: USB devices wait for the host to request the next chunk data. The real problem is that our nerves ignore steady information. While a clock signal may be interesting enough for the nerves on the actual interface, the constant stream of information will cause the nerves dealing with the data at a more "abstract" level to tune it out. I guess the implication is that it would be like book learning, only more tedious.


Sorry, I made the jump from thinking about USB to other protocols mentally and didn't indicate it inline with my post. The problem with USB would be the sheer complexity of the protocol. There's several different packets at play, device classes, different speed standards, not even to mentioning checksums... I was wondering about how easily it would be for the brain to adapt to new inputs/outputs on its own. USB seems unfit for this. THEN I started thinking about simple serial protocols and that's when I brought up the problem of clocking.

Something like Differential Manchester encoding might keep the data 'interesting' enough?
But it raining and me peeing on your foot are NOT mutually exclusive.
"Isn't arrogance measured in nano-Dijkstra's?"- Alan Kay


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