0645: "RPS"

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Zylon
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Zylon » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:20 pm UTC

Brother Maynard wrote:
captain2obvious wrote:
odie wrote:(for those Americans out there tomato sauce = ketchup)


Thanks for the cultural insight! No way I coulda put the two together! :wink:


Really? My experience with tomato sauce is that it's very basic pureed tomatoes. Ketchup usually has more sugar and such, leading to a different and less primarily tomato-ey flavor.

Yes, odie is confused. Ketchup/catsup is an entire category of savory condiments. These days it's almost always tomato-based, but it can be made from mushrooms, walnuts, bananas, and so on in that manner.

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Matsi » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:21 pm UTC

Brother Maynard wrote:My experience with tomato sauce is that it's very basic pureed tomatoes.


pureed? sure, you could take the easy way out by just using your blender, but real tomato sauce is made by first blanching and skinning the tomatoes, chopping them up finely, sautéing some onions and garlic in olive oil, adding the tomatoes, salt and optionally some water or stock and herbs and letting it simmer until you get a nice sauce. Wait, this isn't the food forum?

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:28 pm UTC

Matsi wrote:
Brother Maynard wrote:My experience with tomato sauce is that it's very basic pureed tomatoes.


pureed? sure, you could take the easy way out by just using your blender, but real tomato sauce is made by first blanching and skinning the tomatoes, chopping them up finely, sautéing some onions and garlic in olive oil, adding the tomatoes, salt and optionally some water or stock and herbs and letting it simmer until you get a nice sauce. Wait, this isn't the food forum?


No, it's not, but I'm drooling anyways :)
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Zylon
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Zylon » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

Matsi wrote:pureed? sure, you could take the easy way out by just using your blender, but real tomato sauce is made by first blanching and skinning the tomatoes, chopping them up finely, sautéing some onions and garlic in olive oil, adding the tomatoes, salt and optionally some water or stock and herbs and letting it simmer until you get a nice sauce. Wait, this isn't the food forum?

That's spaghetti sauce. "Tomato sauce" is just that... pureed tomatoes with preservatives and minimal spices added.

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Matsi » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:40 pm UTC

Zylon wrote:That's spaghetti sauce. "Tomato sauce" is just that... pureed tomatoes with preservatives and minimal spices added.


If you choose to live your life believing that, i will not stop you. But if you were somehow coerced, scratch your chin now and I will send help.

edit: tasty help!

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby BioTube » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:51 am UTC

Matsi wrote:If you choose to live your life believing that, i will not stop you. But if you were somehow coerced, scratch your chin now and I will send help.
I suppose you'll be claiming parmesean cheese comes from nameless Italian town next?
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Zylon » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:46 pm UTC

Matsi wrote:
Zylon wrote:That's spaghetti sauce. "Tomato sauce" is just that... pureed tomatoes with preservatives and minimal spices added.


If you choose to live your life believing that, i will not stop you. But if you were somehow coerced, scratch your chin now and I will send help.

Look, obviously English isn't your native language. Over here, "tomato sauce" is NOT a "sauce" in the culinary sense. It's a base ingredient, much like tomato paste, tomato puree, diced tomatoes, stewed tomatoes, etc.

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Eugo » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:29 pm UTC

Look, obviously English isn't your native language. Over here, "tomato sauce" is NOT a "sauce" in the culinary sense. It's a base ingredient, much like tomato paste, tomato puree, diced tomatoes, stewed tomatoes, etc.


Without looking: English isn't my first language, but I have a lot of experience with it. Since this is new to me, that tomato sauce is not a sauce, how do you call it when it is a sauce? How do you distinguish (or, "make a difference between them", to toss a construct which is natural in many other languages but a ?huh? one in English) the sauce sauce, and non-sauce sauce? And I don't mean physically - that's easy - but in speech, how do you specify to which one are you refer?

And don't tell me that tomato sauce which IS sauce doesn't exist - I know it doesn't. I ate it the other day, and it is no more.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby westrim » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:00 pm UTC

Eugo wrote:
Look, obviously English isn't your native language. Over here, "tomato sauce" is NOT a "sauce" in the culinary sense. It's a base ingredient, much like tomato paste, tomato puree, diced tomatoes, stewed tomatoes, etc.


Without looking: English isn't my first language, but I have a lot of experience with it. Since this is new to me, that tomato sauce is not a sauce, how do you call it when it is a sauce? How do you distinguish (or, "make a difference between them", to toss a construct which is natural in many other languages but a ?huh? one in English) the sauce sauce, and non-sauce sauce? And I don't mean physically - that's easy - but in speech, how do you specify to which one are you refer?

And don't tell me that tomato sauce which IS sauce doesn't exist - I know it doesn't. I ate it the other day, and it is no more.


What he means is you don't put tomato sauce on top, you put it on the bottom. It's not an addition to the meal like Tabasco or other sauces, it is part of the meal, like chicken broth. But this can be cleared up with a few links to a certain decently reliable site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_sauce
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_paste
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_pur%C3%A9e
and funnily enough
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog#Condiments
Just remember that Randall is American, so no A-HA's if it's not the American interpretation. And for those too lazy to click, the tomato sauce page covers pretty much every form of tomato that isn't whole, sliced, or ketchup.

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Eugo » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:08 pm UTC

westrim wrote:
Eugo wrote:
Look, obviously English isn't your native language. Over here, "tomato sauce" is NOT a "sauce" in the culinary sense. It's a base ingredient, much like tomato paste, tomato puree, diced tomatoes, stewed tomatoes, etc.

And don't tell me that tomato sauce which IS sauce doesn't exist - I know it doesn't. I ate it the other day, and it is no more.


Just remember that Randall is American, so no A-HA's if it's not the American interpretation. And for those too lazy to click, the tomato sauce page covers pretty much every form of tomato that isn't whole, sliced, or ketchup.


So my question stays. There's no way you can just say "tomato sauce" and convey a particular meaning - it "covers pretty much every form of" - so you have to specify or remain ambiguous (see http://ndragan.com/lange/dvosmisleno.html).
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Cynical Idealist » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:14 pm UTC

Eugo wrote:
westrim wrote:
Eugo wrote:
Look, obviously English isn't your native language. Over here, "tomato sauce" is NOT a "sauce" in the culinary sense. It's a base ingredient, much like tomato paste, tomato puree, diced tomatoes, stewed tomatoes, etc.

And don't tell me that tomato sauce which IS sauce doesn't exist - I know it doesn't. I ate it the other day, and it is no more.


Just remember that Randall is American, so no A-HA's if it's not the American interpretation. And for those too lazy to click, the tomato sauce page covers pretty much every form of tomato that isn't whole, sliced, or ketchup.


So my question stays. There's no way you can just say "tomato sauce" and convey a particular meaning - it "covers pretty much every form of" - so you have to specify or remain ambiguous (see http://ndragan.com/lange/dvosmisleno.html).

The article covers pretty much every form of tomato that isn't whole, sliced, or ketchup. However, in American usage, "'tomato sauce' refers to a tomato purée with salt and small amounts of spices sold in cans." (source)
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theta4
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby theta4 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:00 am UTC

amazing amazing amazing. I love this so much! It's so simple too.

Call me crazy, but there are 2 levels on which this comic can be viewed.
Level 1 - It's a simple visual pun on "reverse polish notation."
Level 2 - It's a statement that reverse polish notation is weird. It is an extended analogy, comparing reverse polish notation to this reverse polish sausage. It's weird, backwards, and takes some getting used to, considering we've been raised to have our operators between our operands, but maybe it makes eating polish sausage easier.

Frankly, I only care about Level 1. If you try to investigate any further, you will never have any fun in life. Try to let go a little, step back, and just laugh. That's what a webcomic is for, anyway, right? Few xkcd comics have given me such enjoyment.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Eugo » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:37 am UTC

Cynical Idealist wrote:
Eugo wrote:So my question stays. There's no way you can just say "tomato sauce" and convey a particular meaning - it "covers pretty much every form of" - so you have to specify or remain ambiguous (see http://ndragan.com/lange/dvosmisleno.html).

The article covers pretty much every form of tomato that isn't whole, sliced, or ketchup. However, in American usage, "'tomato sauce' refers to a tomato purée with salt and small amounts of spices sold in cans." (source)

So then I revert to my previous question: how do you mention tomato sauce (as a dish, not as a canned ingredient) in American English, if "tomato sauce" is not a sauce?
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby BioTube » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:46 pm UTC

Eugo wrote:So then I revert to my previous question: how do you mention tomato sauce (as a dish, not as a canned ingredient) in American English, if "tomato sauce" is not a sauce?
We don't.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Eugo » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:52 pm UTC

BioTube wrote:
Eugo wrote:So then I revert to my previous question: how do you mention tomato sauce (as a dish, not as a canned ingredient) in American English, if "tomato sauce" is not a sauce?
We don't.

Ah, an unmentionable :mrgreen:
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:12 pm UTC

A lot of restaurants call "tomato sauce" "marinara sauce." As I don't eat out often, it took me years to figure out that it was just Italian for "Tomato sauce" (roughly speaking).
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby BioTube » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:18 pm UTC

Marinara sauce is a topping for bread sticks, not an entree.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby dennisw » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:32 am UTC

BioTube wrote:Marinara sauce is a topping for bread sticks, not an entree.

Maybe at Pizza Hut or the End Zone Bar and Grill.

No, marinara is a simple tomato sauce that's used for pasta, a form of bruschetta, etc.

In the US, the use of the term "tomato sauce" depends on the context. Everyday usage most often refers to canned, pureed tomatoes with minimal other ingredients used as a base for making anything "tomatoey" (pasta sauces, some types of chili, etc.). For a different texture, canned crushed tomatoes are available. As a thickener or to add flavor without adding liquid, tomato paste is used. When I make "homemade" spaghetti sauce, I use a combination of canned sauce, paste and blanched and peeled fresh Roma tomatoes. The rest of the ingredients are secret. The mixture is cooked until I can't stand waiting any more.

In a restaurant, tomato sauce is often synonymous with marinara. I've often heard Italian-Americans refer to this (as well as other tomato-based pasta sauces) as "gravy". This really raises my eyebrows, since to me gravy is a starch and stock (or other liquid). My mother made red-eye gravy: pan fry ham steaks, set aside, in the pan using the drippings (ham fat and juices), add flour and stir while cooking to make a light-to-medium roux, thin with brewed coffee. Serve over the ham steaks with homemade biscuits (if you don't know what American biscuits are, I feel really bad for you, they're somewhat, but not at all, like scones). But I digress.

If you order spaghetti and expect ground beef in it, the menu will often say "meat sauce", but it's what people usually mean if they say "spaghetti sauce" without qualification.

So:
  • "Honey, go to the supermarket and get me some tomato sauce." - you should bring home a can that I described above
  • "Dear, pick up a jar of spaghetti sauce on your way home." - you'd better ask. There are as many varieties of jarred sauce as breakfast cereals
  • "Sweetheart, stop by Antonio's and bring us a couple of orders of angel hair and tomato sauce." - she means marinara
  • "Baby, I'm cooking spaghetti tonight" - you should hurry home!

So, to answer an earlier question, it's all about context - both of the situation and of the qualifiers in the conversation.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby FoolishOwl » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:02 am UTC

If you don't want to carry the graphing calculator around, you can access mathematics software through a Web browser:

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby westrim » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:12 am UTC

dennisw wrote:
BioTube wrote:Marinara sauce is a topping for bread sticks, not an entree.

Maybe at Pizza Hut or the End Zone Bar and Grill.

No, marinara is a simple tomato sauce that's used for pasta, a form of bruschetta, etc.

In the US, the use of the term "tomato sauce" depends on the context. Everyday usage most often refers to canned, pureed tomatoes with minimal other ingredients used as a base for making anything "tomatoey" (pasta sauces, some types of chili, etc.). For a different texture, canned crushed tomatoes are available. As a thickener or to add flavor without adding liquid, tomato paste is used. When I make "homemade" spaghetti sauce, I use a combination of canned sauce, paste and blanched and peeled fresh Roma tomatoes. The rest of the ingredients are secret. The mixture is cooked until I can't stand waiting any more.

In a restaurant, tomato sauce is often synonymous with marinara. I've often heard Italian-Americans refer to this (as well as other tomato-based pasta sauces) as "gravy". This really raises my eyebrows, since to me gravy is a starch and stock (or other liquid). My mother made red-eye gravy: pan fry ham steaks, set aside, in the pan using the drippings (ham fat and juices), add flour and stir while cooking to make a light-to-medium roux, thin with brewed coffee. Serve over the ham steaks with homemade biscuits (if you don't know what American biscuits are, I feel really bad for you, they're somewhat, but not at all, like scones). But I digress.

If you order spaghetti and expect ground beef in it, the menu will often say "meat sauce", but it's what people usually mean if they say "spaghetti sauce" without qualification.

So:
  • "Honey, go to the supermarket and get me some tomato sauce." - you should bring home a can that I described above
  • "Dear, pick up a jar of spaghetti sauce on your way home." - you'd better ask. There are as many varieties of jarred sauce as breakfast cereals
  • "Sweetheart, stop by Antonio's and bring us a couple of orders of angel hair and tomato sauce." - she means marinara
  • "Baby, I'm cooking spaghetti tonight" - you should hurry home!

So, to answer an earlier question, it's all about context - both of the situation and of the qualifiers in the conversation.



Best answer to the issue so far.

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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Cynical Idealist » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:11 am UTC

dennisw wrote:This really raises my eyebrows, since to me gravy is a starch and stock (or other liquid). My mother made red-eye gravy: pan fry ham steaks, set aside, in the pan using the drippings (ham fat and juices), add flour and stir while cooking to make a light-to-medium roux, thin with brewed coffee. Serve over the ham steaks with homemade biscuits (if you don't know what American biscuits are, I feel really bad for you, they're somewhat, but not at all, like scones). But I digress.


Damn you. I want biscuits and gravy so much now, but I'm trying to eat healthy.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Smile » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:16 pm UTC

theta4 wrote:amazing amazing amazing. I love this so much! It's so simple too.

Call me crazy, but there are 2 levels on which this comic can be viewed.
Level 1 - It's a simple visual pun on "reverse polish notation."
Level 2 - It's a statement that reverse polish notation is weird. It is an extended analogy, comparing reverse polish notation to this reverse polish sausage. It's weird, backwards, and takes some getting used to, considering we've been raised to have our operators between our operands, but maybe it makes eating polish sausage easier.

Frankly, I only care about Level 1. If you try to investigate any further, you will never have any fun in life. Try to let go a little, step back, and just laugh. That's what a webcomic is for, anyway, right? Few xkcd comics have given me such enjoyment.


Agreed. Still, I can't resist analyzing the comic on level 2. I think the comic is like missing an operator. Reverse polish notation goes "3 5 +", this comic only goes "3 5".

But anyway I liked the comic, which is after all the point of a webcomic. I didn't laugh out loud, but I was in a library so that would've been a little awkward...
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Faranya » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:30 am UTC

Matsi wrote:
Brother Maynard wrote:My experience with tomato sauce is that it's very basic pureed tomatoes.


pureed? sure, you could take the easy way out by just using your blender, but real tomato sauce is made by first blanching and skinning the tomatoes, chopping them up finely, sautéing some onions and garlic in olive oil, adding the tomatoes, salt and optionally some water or stock and herbs and letting it simmer until you get a nice sauce. Wait, this isn't the food forum?


No, REAL tomato sauce is made by placing whole tomatoes into an agitator with a series of razor blades, letting it play through until they have been throughly chopped, extracting those blades with magnets and then placing the now finely chopped tomatoes into a particle accelerator which will break them down into a fine paste at a molecular level, which is then projected into the air, where the resulting frictional forces will cause the paste to heat up and cook before landing into a serving pot.

And then you add some salt.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:39 pm UTC

The author of the comic is speaking Queen's English not.
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Re: "RPS" Discussion

Postby Outchanter » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:19 am UTC

Cynical Idealist wrote:The article covers pretty much every form of tomato that isn't whole, sliced, or ketchup.

Actually it covers ketchup too:

In countries such as Australia and New Zealand the term 'tomato sauce' is used to describe the condiment known as 'ketchup'.

You can also add South Africa (and, I suspect, the UK) to that list. So depending on location, tomato sauce can probably refer to any form of tomato that isn't whole or sliced.

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Re: 0645: "RPS"

Postby Aviatrix » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:34 pm UTC

Apologies for the zombie. I skipped a couple of years of xkcd. Things got better, but I never read the ones I missed until this week.

I still have trouble with algebraic notation on calculators because I started using an HP11c as soon as they were introduced. I'd used a TI SR-52 calculator during my undergrad years (for those who are keeping score, I used a slide rule the first two years), but once I got the HP I forgot any other way to use a calculator.

Spin ahead a few decades. I decided to take a few math classes I'd never had the opportunity to take (DiffEQ) but it turns out the community college wanted me to take a placement test first. The highest class they place anyone in is intermediate algebra. Okay, fine. I was required to use a TI-84 for that class, which was annoying, especially when they asked how I would graph functions without a graphing calculator. As it turns out, they don't expect students to know how to draw a graph, they expect them to know how to use a TI-84. The faculty, all of whom are younger than I, thought it was shocking, but cute, that I preferred my HP11c to the graphing calculator.

Then I get to this comic and discovered that almost nobody got it. I'm depressed.

It doesn't help that I'm turning into one of those creaky people who quavers, "Kids today! When I was a kid, we didn't have any of this nonsense!"


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