0668: "Pandora"

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wlthabha/okocapa/om
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby wlthabha/okocapa/om » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:07 pm UTC

There was this guy who did something to my computer and now I can use Pandora although I live in Europe. Since I accidentally lost his number by deleting all his texts with the adequate amount of anger and distress I can't ask him what he did. What DID he do?
I made the same observation as Randall by the way. You have some friends over, choose a reliable playlist and suddenly some nasty seventies hippie band named something pony something rears its ugly, ugly head.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Altourus » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:12 pm UTC

glasnt wrote:
From Wiki: Pandora: Type of site Internet radio (restricted to the US)

Ah, fuu. Sounds like a blast to use.



For those of us outside of the US we can use http://www.grooveshark.com from what i understand its the same concept

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby bluemonkmn » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:50 pm UTC

I too am a bit confused about the labeling. Here's my guess at what would have made more sense.
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cyberblade
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby cyberblade » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:31 pm UTC

For those of you outside of the US, yes, you can still use Pandora... it's not too hard, a bit of googling should show you how.

Also, just to be clear-it's not that Pandora doesn't want to share with everyone, but the RIAA and it's ilk won't let them...

Having tried all these other sites I can say that nothing has come close to the ability it has to continually find new music I like (seriously, I've bought at least 20 cd's in the last year because of Pandora)... The music genome project is an awesome thing-I actually found Pandora through that, not through looking for free music. And the 2 bucks a month (or whatever it is) for unlimited music, with its own application is totally worth it to me. The only thing that bugs me is how some songs (like Fluers Du Mal, for example) shows up on a channel I seeded with classical vocals, and one I seeded with metal... I can understand how they get there, since even across genre's I tend to look for the same things, but meh. Also, I wish that you could set a instrumental only or X language only filter on each channel...

And that song pops up on a couple of my channels, not that I'd be embarrassed by it, unless they caught me singing along... But I love that song! Now "The Song That Goes Like This" is a bit harder for people to understand...

Dunno why people complain about the graph. Yeah, looking back I see it could have been clearer-but it was crystal clear the first time I looked at it.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Ichapp » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:39 pm UTC

I don't see why you guys are having so much trouble with this. As far as I can tell, it's labeled properly.

The left circle is labeled "Music you like" and so all music you like is included there. The right circle is labeled "Deeply embarrassing music". There's clearly an overlap, so you must assume that you like some deeply embarrassing music, but not all of it.

Inside the music you like, we have "What Pandora plays" because it doesn't play everything that you like, but it does play some of the stuff you like. However, whenever somebody else is around, Pandora manages to hit that overlap of music you enjoy and are embarrassed by.

I thought this was a fairly straightforward comic, and none of the text should be moved around. Do I suck at Venn Diagrams, or are you guys just having a hard time with this for some strange reason? I get worried that I'm wrong when the xkcd community doesn't agree with me.
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Enkerli » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:52 pm UTC

Why would anyone be embarrassed by music?
Among all forms of discrimination (and there are several), playlistism is possibly the silliest.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby BioTube » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:05 pm UTC

These people are confused for two reasons:
1. The right circle is blank.
2. They're looking at it after much lack of sleep.

Also, this:

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Like no one ever was

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To train them is my cause
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby cparker15 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:10 pm UTC

Enkerli wrote:Why would anyone be embarrassed by music?
Among all forms of discrimination (and there are several), playlistism is possibly the silliest.

I think this about sums it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8hH28E2Jbo
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Tass » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:29 pm UTC

Could somebody please explain exactly what pandora is? Some kind of program that chooses music you like? A radio station? I think I would better understand the joke if I knew.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby cyberblade » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:37 pm UTC

Tass wrote:Could somebody please explain exactly what pandora is? Some kind of program that chooses music you like? A radio station? I think I would better understand the joke if I knew.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pandora

though, to be fair if you have regional settings it might not be the very first link as it is in all the countries I've seen it... In which case I apologize.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby hintss » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:32 pm UTC

AWA wrote:Image

Link: http://xkcd.com/668/

Alt-text: What? Oh, no, the 'Enchanted' soundtrack was just playing because Pandora's algorithms are terrible. [silence] ... (quietly) That's how you knooooooow ...

Comment: Never used Pandora, myself; I can find music on my own. *coughYouTubecough*


www.tuberadio.fm/

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Winge » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:42 pm UTC

Ichapp wrote:The left circle is labeled "Music you like" and so all music you like is included there. The right circle is labeled "Deeply embarrassing music". There's clearly an overlap, so you must assume that you like some deeply embarrassing music, but not all of it.

The lables are placed outside of the circles they refer to. Alright, I can buy that.

Ichapp wrote:Inside the music you like, we have "What Pandora plays" because it doesn't play everything that you like, but it does play some of the stuff you like. However, whenever somebody else is around, Pandora manages to hit that overlap of music you enjoy and are embarrassed by.

There are at least two big problems here:

* Are the labels still placed outside of the area they describe? You seem to imply that you think so, since you say that "it doesn't play everything that you like". But there are no further circles that these labels can refer to. So I can only deduce that "what P plays" refers to the whole left moon shaped part, and that "what P plays if anyone is around" refers to the football shaped area. That is to say, these labels refer to the area in which they are placed. This incongruity is jarring. Also, contrary to how you read it, in that case it says that Pandora plays all music I like and nothing but the music I like, something I kind of doubt is true. Or is this part of the joke?

* Are "what P plays" and "what P plays if anyone is around" disjunct sets according to this graph? It looks so, but logically they are not. "What P plays if anyone is around" should be a subset of "what P plays". I presume they should be understood as "what P plays when I am alone" and "what P plays if anyone else is also in hearing range", but that is not what it says.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby achilleas.k » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:54 pm UTC

Tass wrote:Could somebody please explain exactly what pandora is? Some kind of program that chooses music you like? A radio station? I think I would better understand the joke if I knew.

There's this thing called "The music genome project" where they basically found a way to sequence the DNA of music. In more serious terms, they worked out a way to classify songs based on several descriptors like vocal type, rhythm type, prevalence of rythm (or particular instrument) loudness and other things that don't necessarily enclose a song with a vague "genre".

Pandora is a showcase for this project. When you start using it, it asks you to give it a band/artist you like (or a song). Then it starts playing things that have common attributes with your initial choice and you get to choose which of these songs you like and don't like. Once it gets a hang of what kind of things you like (based on your voting) it starts playing new songs that you should, in theory, like.

Some people find the choices random and don't like any of the suggestions, other people (myself included) found that 9/10 new songs played were tailored to my musical preferences.
So as someone mentioned early, it is nothing like Grooveshark.
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby cogman » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

DragonHawk wrote:
Hopper wrote:To me this looks like there are two sets, one is labeled "What Pandora plays" and the other isn't labeled. The intersection of the two sets is labeled "What Pandora plays if anyone is around". Then it looks like the complement of the union of the two sets is labeled twice: once with "Music you like" and once with "Deeply embarrassing music"

Yah, I think Randall screwed up. (It happens.) The text "Deeply embarrassing music" should be inside the right-hand circle, not outside it. Like this:

Image

And really, unless you like all embarrassing music, "Music you like" should not be an all-encompassing set (as is shown). (Fixing that would require more than a simple cut/paste, so I'm not bothering.)

I came here to post this. The labels are supposed to be in the areas that they represent. Right now, we have a circle that doesn't seem to represent anything. Also, What pandora plays should probably be changed to "What Pandora plays when others are around".

The other solution is to add a third circle. So we have a the global value "Music I like" then the three circles "Deeply embarrassing music", "What Pandora plays", and "Other people are around". The intersection of the three being Pandora playing deeply embarrassing music that I like and other people are around.


... Dang you Discrete Math, I'll never be able to look at a Venn diagram the same!

dkaa
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby dkaa » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:36 pm UTC

People still use Pandora? Slacker.com is much better, IMO. Better quality, tons more songs. I even have a their portable for my car.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Charlie! » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:59 pm UTC

Both (and similar products) are better than hitting "play random" on a playlist of all recordings, but overall it's pretty boring to me. Lacks variety, flow, that sorta thing. DJ-ing is an art form, and as yet Pandora is about average for computer-generated art.
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby thenonsequitur » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:34 pm UTC

I'm generally a fan of xkcd, but I never posted on the forums before. But I couldn't help but create an account and comment on this one because the labels are such a disaster. Randall, please take this one down and rethink it. You clearly made at least one mistake, probably several. You have to make several modifications before it even makes logical sense, and even then it's not really funny.

I think bluemonkmn presented what you were actually trying to do, because that's the only variation that both makes sense and has a joke in it. But even that one still takes a little longer than you want to process, and the joke's trite.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Doodle77 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:57 pm UTC

Randall, stop doing product placement.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby ysth » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:08 pm UTC

geoffreynham wrote:Oh gosh, my ex-girlfriend loved that song from Enchanted. It drove me even crazier than "It's A Small World."
I can't hear about "It's a Small World" anymore without thinking of Sandman.
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby ysth » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:16 pm UTC

cyberblade wrote:Dunno why people complain about the graph. Yeah, looking back I see it could have been clearer-but it was crystal clear the first time I looked at it.
Ditto.
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Tass » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:50 pm UTC

achilleas.k wrote:
Tass wrote:Could somebody please explain exactly what pandora is? Some kind of program that chooses music you like? A radio station? I think I would better understand the joke if I knew.

There's this thing called "The music genome project" where they basically found a way to sequence the DNA of music. In more serious terms, they worked out a way to classify songs based on several descriptors like vocal type, rhythm type, prevalence of rythm (or particular instrument) loudness and other things that don't necessarily enclose a song with a vague "genre".

Pandora is a showcase for this project. When you start using it, it asks you to give it a band/artist you like (or a song). Then it starts playing things that have common attributes with your initial choice and you get to choose which of these songs you like and don't like. Once it gets a hang of what kind of things you like (based on your voting) it starts playing new songs that you should, in theory, like.

Some people find the choices random and don't like any of the suggestions, other people (myself included) found that 9/10 new songs played were tailored to my musical preferences.
So as someone mentioned early, it is nothing like Grooveshark.


Nice! Thanks. I want to try, why is it only available in America? :evil:

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby ballos » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:35 pm UTC

motherfucking RIAA


pandora hasn't played anything embarrassing for me yet though

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby fynthase » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:29 pm UTC

THE COMIC MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!!!

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby SpringLoaded12 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 pm UTC

While reading the comic, I thought Pandora was a band.

Based on the labels, I think the "music that Pandora plays when anyone is around" is a subset of "music that you like." But maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

But then, according to the diagram, Pandora only plays music that you like. What is this program/site/station/whatever?
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Jisaan » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:24 am UTC

I think the comic is correct, if you assume that labels inside the circles are for the area in which they are placed, while the labels outside the circles are for the circles in their entirety. A somewhat more clear example would be this:

Image

Since I assumed Pandora never plays anything you don't like, which seems to be what the comic assumed, there's no way to label the inner circle by itself, but it's supposed to be 'What Pandora Plays'. To aid explanation, here's a color version:

Image

Here, 'Embarrassing Music' is red, 'Music That You Like' is green, and 'What Pandora Plays' is blue. If you were to label the other sections, cyan would be 'Music That You Like Which Pandora Plays', yellow would be 'Embarrassing Music That You Like', and white would be 'Embarrassing Music That You Like Which Pandora Plays'.

The joke, of course, is that white could just as easily represent 'What Pandora plays when someone is around'. This actually implies that such songs never play when you're alone, but rather than try to fix that, I'm going to assume it's part of the joke.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Ichapp » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:55 am UTC

Winge wrote:The lables[sic] are placed outside of the circles they refer to. Alright, I can buy that.


Cool. That was the way I saw it. Keep in mind they're sort of attached to the circles, not floating as items outside the circles.

Winge wrote:* Are the labels still placed outside of the area they describe? You seem to imply that you think so, since you say that "it doesn't play everything that you like". But there are no further circles that these labels can refer to. So I can only deduce that "what P plays" refers to the whole left moon shaped part, and that "what P plays if anyone is around" refers to the football shaped area. That is to say, these labels refer to the area in which they are placed. This incongruity is jarring. Also, contrary to how you read it, in that case it says that Pandora plays all music I like and nothing but the music I like, something I kind of doubt is true. Or is this part of the joke?


I don't think of the text inside the circles as labels so much as items that go inside these labeled circles. He didn't include all the items that would go into each circle. So "what P plays" is an item inside "Music you like", no? The football shaped area contains all the music that you like and is embarrassing, and Pandora pulls from this area that whenever somebody else is around (assuming that it should read "what P plays when you're alone", see below). Naturally there are other items in here, because I think even Pandora cannot map you musical tastes perfectly. As for Pandora playing nothing but the music you like, that's more part of the joke/worship.

Winge wrote:* Are "what P plays" and "what P plays if anyone is around" disjunct sets according to this graph? It looks so, but logically they are not. "What P plays if anyone is around" should be a subset of "what P plays". I presume they should be understood as "what P plays when I am alone" and "what P plays if anyone else is also in hearing range", but that is not what it says.


This I'll definitely give you. "What P plays if somebody is around" certainly should be a subset of "what P plays".
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby theoretical_cat » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:58 am UTC

Yeah, I really enjoy it when roomie's out or has her headphones on, because then I can listen to Pandora without running out of skips per day.

Or rickroll myself and loop that for a few hours.
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Tass » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:50 am UTC

I thought that it was quite obvious that the text outside referred to the entire circle they were next too. He did the same in 112
Image

It doesn't make sense any other way either.

Ichapp wrote:This I'll definitely give you. "What P plays if somebody is around" certainly should be a subset of "what P plays".


It should probably have said "what pandora usually plays"

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby fynthase » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:11 pm UTC

If it had said "What Pandora usually plays" that would've implied that P doesn't always play music you like, which is false. Even the embarrassing music is music you like

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby rwa2 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:36 pm UTC

Enkerli wrote:Why would anyone be embarrassed by music?
Among all forms of discrimination (and there are several), playlistism is possibly the silliest.


Imagine this coming up during a family dinner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otaB66tWoD4 (NSFW)

Anyway, I tried to get into Pandora, but just never could. I tend to like music with funny lyrics (King Missile, Monty Python, Weird Al, Nellie McKay, Capitol Steps, etc.) which tend to mock a wide variety of genres in parody, and the music genome algorithm just goes nuts spitting out all kinds of crap. And other times when I enter music genres that I like, it sometimes responds with a bunch of remixes, which I can't stand.

I do like some of the internet DJ'd stations... such as some of the channels at http://somafm.com/ or http://di.fm/ . Before I found those streams, I just thought that I simply wasn't into music, because I never heard much music that I really liked on radio / satellite / etc.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby cooldude95 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:37 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:
DragonHawk wrote:
Hopper wrote:To me this looks like there are two sets, one is labeled "What Pandora plays" and the other isn't labeled. The intersection of the two sets is labeled "What Pandora plays if anyone is around". Then it looks like the complement of the union of the two sets is labeled twice: once with "Music you like" and once with "Deeply embarrassing music"
Yah, I think Randall screwed up. (It happens.) The text "Deeply embarrassing music" should be inside the right-hand circle, not outside it. Like this:

[url=http://xkcd.com/668/][img]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6232/pandorav11.png[img][url]

And really, unless you like all embarrassing music, "Music you like" should not be an all-encompassing set (as is shown). (Fixing that would require more than a simple cut/paste, so I'm not bothering.)

I went ahead and fixed it the whole way.

I can't tell if this is an example of Randel trying to hard and overthinking the Venn Diagram. Or if it is an example of him slapping something together without thought. I've definitely noticed it seems like sometimes he's trying too hard to explain the joke, like he's concerned people won't understand it.
Image


I think everyone is thinking too hard about this, I got it the first time I read it, and I am pretty sure everyone else here (save the few people that thought Pandora was some sort of band/radio station)

The whole Venn diagram is all music, in general. The left circle is the music that you like (it is ALSO the music that Pandora plays for you. Assuming Pandora was perfect, it would only play music that you like. So it is just two names for the same set) The right circle is embarrassing music, whether that be embarrassing to you or to other people, or both. The overlap would be music that is considered embarrassing, but music that you enjoy. It is also the music that Pandora plays when other people are around (for the sake of the joke). The reason he named the "left circle" set twice is just for the sake of the joke. If you didn't know that it was music that you like AND music that Pandora played, it wouldn't have as much of an impact, as a joke. The "right circle" set need not be named twice, since it is just embarrassing music in general. That's just how I looked at it, it makes total sense to me.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby hyperion2010 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:57 pm UTC

Guys, its called Pandora for a REASON.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Fat Zombie » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:23 pm UTC

cooldude95 wrote:I think everyone is thinking too hard about this, I got it the first time I read it, and I am pretty sure everyone else here (save the few people that thought Pandora was some sort of band/radio station)

The whole Venn diagram is all music, in general. The left circle is the music that you like (it is ALSO the music that Pandora plays for you. Assuming Pandora was perfect, it would only play music that you like. So it is just two names for the same set) The right circle is embarrassing music, whether that be embarrassing to you or to other people, or both. The overlap would be music that is considered embarrassing, but music that you enjoy. It is also the music that Pandora plays when other people are around (for the sake of the joke). The reason he named the "left circle" set twice is just for the sake of the joke. If you didn't know that it was music that you like AND music that Pandora played, it wouldn't have as much of an impact, as a joke. The "right circle" set need not be named twice, since it is just embarrassing music in general. That's just how I looked at it, it makes total sense to me.


Dude. Webcomics are Serious Business. Plus, due to the subject matter of this webcomic, it logically follows that the appropriate audience are going to find the correct structure of a Venn Diagram important.

Still, I was entertained. I used Pandora for a brief while, but it stopped working for UKites. Luckily we now have Spotify, which lacks the "new music" thing, but makes up for it with the "has all music" thing.
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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Shian » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:49 am UTC

Jisaan wrote:I think the comic is correct, if you assume that labels inside the circles are for the area in which they are placed, while the labels outside the circles are for the circles in their entirety. A somewhat more clear example would be this:

Image

Since I assumed Pandora never plays anything you don't like, which seems to be what the comic assumed, there's no way to label the inner circle by itself, but it's supposed to be 'What Pandora Plays'. To aid explanation, here's a color version:

Image

Here, 'Embarrassing Music' is red, 'Music That You Like' is green, and 'What Pandora Plays' is blue. If you were to label the other sections, cyan would be 'Music That You Like Which Pandora Plays', yellow would be 'Embarrassing Music That You Like', and white would be 'Embarrassing Music That You Like Which Pandora Plays'.

The joke, of course, is that white could just as easily represent 'What Pandora plays when someone is around'. This actually implies that such songs never play when you're alone, but rather than try to fix that, I'm going to assume it's part of the joke.


In the interest of simplicity:
Image

Where the entire background is songs you like. "What Pandora plays" and "deeply embarrassing songs you like" are subsets of "music you like" (assuming Pandora only plays songs you like). "What Pandora plays" is only equal to "deeply embarrassing songs you like" when someone is around.

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby HighSpeedFallingObjects » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:14 am UTC

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH, you know what? I was massively confused the first time I saw this, but looking at it now, hours later, I get it. Haha. It makes sense.

EDIT: Or maybe he changed it, possibly, since last I saw it? ;D

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Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby valerie » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:29 am UTC

Does this make more sense? Esp wrt what Pandora is? I mean, it does not only play music that you like, right?

Image

U = {music}
A = {music Pandora plays}
B = {deeply embarrassing music}
A n B' = {music you like}
A n B = {music Pandora plays when anyone else is around}
A' n B = {other deeply embarrasing music, not played by Pandora}

nico
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:53 am UTC

Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby nico » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:07 pm UTC

I'm not sure what is funnier: the comic or the replies in the forum. I'm sure the "awful" mistakes in the Venn diagram were put on purpose to annoy a certain subset of the math-geek audience... :P

PS: 2 pages of reply and noone mentions this misterious thing called a proxy... ? :roll:

Bonkava
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:18 pm UTC

Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Bonkava » Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:24 pm UTC

The Venn Diagram is not incorrect. It may be incorrect from a mathematical, graphing stand-point, but there are two different types of Venn Diagrams.

There's the kind you guys are all used to apparently that simply shows overlap between two demographics. Then there's this kind; the detailed, comparative style of Venn Diagram.

The left circle is labeled with its subject on the outside, as is the right. The overlap happens cleanly in the middle.

Within the left circle, characteristics that only apply to the left subject are written (i.e. Pandora only plays music you like and not deeply embarrassing music.) Within the right circle, characteristics that only apply to the right subject are written. (As any things solely related to deeply embarrassing music would be irrelevant, this circle is left blank.) In the middle, things that apply to both subjects are written (when people are around, Pandora plays deeply embarrassing music AND music you like, typically within the same song.)

slightlydead
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:52 pm UTC

Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby slightlydead » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:44 pm UTC

so yeah I've always wanted a radio station that could do this. I have to thank randall a lot for actually bringing pandora's existence into light.

Revolucion
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

Re: "Pandora" Discussion

Postby Revolucion » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:37 pm UTC

The song mentioned in the alt-text actually came on over a friend's house once. I started singing along and got dirty looks from him.


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