0868: "Nolan Chart"

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uncivlengr
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby uncivlengr » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:00 pm UTC

sab39 wrote:Apparently the test was written by the sort of person who, when asked what his salary ought to be, always answers with double whatever his salary actually IS. In a crazy world where this kind of cheapened libertarianism won out and spending WAS cut in half (presumably by eliminating Medicare, since that's the only way you could achieve that level of cuts) they'd simply say that they want to cut spending by a further half. Their "appropriate level of spending" is just "half whatever the current level is at any given time".
It's akin to asking on a survey, "Would you like your salary doubled?" and then when the majority inevitably say yes, conclude that people are underpaid and/or unhappy with their salaries.

Albeit, that's what happens in politics and ideologies in general... you get people arguing about abstractions that have little to do with practicality.
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby dp2 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:08 pm UTC

As a den leader, my first thought was the Bobcat-Tiger-Wolf-Bear badge array. Maybe I don't belong here.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Agathos » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:14 pm UTC

But if baseball fans have to be in the right corner, shouldn't you put Nate Silver in with them? Or are "baseball fans who also follow politics" their own category?

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Cal Engime » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:49 pm UTC

atomfullerene wrote:
Glass Fractal wrote:David Nolan was a guy who made a diamond shaped chart designed to make Libertarianism look like an attractive political philosophy or, in the form of The World's Smallest Political Quiz, convince people they already follow it.


Multi-axis political charts aren't just Libertarian propaganda, and often make a good deal more sense than our current 1 dimensional political spectrum. The Nolan chart wasn't the first such chart--science fiction author Jerry Pournelle came up with another chart several years earlier, with different axes. It's square though, not diamond shaped.

edit: wikilink. Also, there are quite a few other charts out there, some older than the ones I've mentioned. Never seen a good 3d one though.
Here you go.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby A_of_s_t » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:02 pm UTC

Why did I find this so funny?
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tech42er
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby tech42er » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:08 pm UTC

The problems with the Nolan quiz are extensively detailed here by Mark Rupright. Most interesting is his "modest proposal":
I'd like to offer an interesting exercise. I'll re-write the ten questions. Go back and take the quiz again, but answer my questions, not the ones in the original quiz. The purpose is to demonstrate how through a different choice of phrasing, the same questions will get different answers. My questions are phrased to incline the respondent to answer "no" more often than "yes".

Personally I won't answer "no" to all of these questions, and they are not intended to illustrate my own bias. I just want to show how easy it is to make the questions biased in the opposite direction.

So here are the questions:

Personal:

    The military should not be allowed to draft soldiers, even in times of national emergency.
    Government should not restrict the flow of pornography across the airwaves and internet.
    Prostitutes are entrepreneurs. Don't legally restrict their trade.
    PCP and heroin should be legal.
    Let impoverished foreigners compete for our jobs.
Economic:

    Government should not help industries or farms at risk of failure.
    We are better off when our products are in free competition with those made by foreigners earning only a small fraction of our wages.
    Employers should be allowed to pay people as little as they can.
    If people need help from a government program, let them pay for it.
    Our government should not support struggling democracies, but rich individuals and corporations can support rebels who would overthrow these democracies.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Nooseybear » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:25 pm UTC

neoliminal wrote:
Nooseybear wrote:
rath358 wrote:Am I the only one who initially misread the top box as "internet librarians"?


I actually thought it was 'internet librarians' until I saw your post...


I thought it was Internet Libertarians until I read your posts, now I can only see librarians.

thx.


Is there even such a thing as an internet librarian?

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby arbivark » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

I knew dave nolan.Not well,but we'd met.
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Lode
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Lode » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:26 pm UTC

An xkcd with a sports reference.

BOOORING!

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Dorp » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:36 pm UTC

Diamond-shaped diagrams tell me whether or not the chemicals at work will murder me.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:26 pm UTC

tech42er wrote:The problems with the Nolan quiz are extensively detailed here by Mark Rupright. Most interesting is his "modest proposal":
I'd like to offer an interesting exercise. I'll re-write the ten questions. Go back and take the quiz again, but answer my questions, not the ones in the original quiz. The purpose is to demonstrate how through a different choice of phrasing, the same questions will get different answers. My questions are phrased to incline the respondent to answer "no" more often than "yes".

Personally I won't answer "no" to all of these questions, and they are not intended to illustrate my own bias. I just want to show how easy it is to make the questions biased in the opposite direction.

So here are the questions:

Personal:

    The military should not be allowed to draft soldiers, even in times of national emergency.
    Government should not restrict the flow of pornography across the airwaves and internet.
    Prostitutes are entrepreneurs. Don't legally restrict their trade.
    PCP and heroin should be legal.
    Let impoverished foreigners compete for our jobs.
Economic:

    Government should not help industries or farms at risk of failure.
    We are better off when our products are in free competition with those made by foreigners earning only a small fraction of our wages.
    Employers should be allowed to pay people as little as they can.
    If people need help from a government program, let them pay for it.
    Our government should not support struggling democracies, but rich individuals and corporations can support rebels who would overthrow these democracies.


Agree -if a country can't get enough volunteers, does it even deserve to exist?
Moderately agree -would otherwise agree, but against child porn, snuff films, etc
Agree -legalize and regulate, to reduce spread of disease and prevent abuses, and cripple organized crime
Moderately agree -decrim/rehab better than turning druggies into criminals
Moderately agree -disagree implies you won't let Mexicans into the US

Agree -long story
Moderately agree -in favor of free trade, but only if it doesn't mean that low pollution jobs here become high pollution jobs elsewhere...
Agree -but workers should, with limits, have the right to collective bargaining, etc
Disagree -and this question is completely different from Nolan's
Moderately agree -Afghanistan and Iraq aren't success stories, but somewhat worried about funds being sent to "freedom fighters"

.8 and .6, would've gotten .7 and .5 with Nolan's version...

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Wnderer » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:40 pm UTC

Philosophers have for a long time seen the world as full of concepts with little dials on them like 'Love of Diamond Shape Diagrams', 'Political Opinions', 'Personal Freedom', 'Economic Freedom', etc. Ancient philosophers like Aristotle thought they should be tuned to the Golden Mean somewhere in the middle. Modern philosophers want to crank them to 11.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby dash » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:48 pm UTC

Ugh. WTF, is there some guest artist that has taken over the site? This and the previous one are probably the worst XKCD's I've ever seen.

Dude, if you're out of ideas, just end it. Don't drag it out in a long death that destroys your reputation. End on a high note...
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby VectorZero » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:16 am UTC

tech42er wrote:The problems with the Nolan quiz are extensively detailed here by Mark Rupright. Most interesting is his "modest proposal":
I'd like to offer an interesting exercise. I'll re-write the ten questions. Go back and take the quiz again, but answer my questions, not the ones in the original quiz. The purpose is to demonstrate how through a different choice of phrasing, the same questions will get different answers. My questions are phrased to incline the respondent to answer "no" more often than "yes".

Personally I won't answer "no" to all of these questions, and they are not intended to illustrate my own bias. I just want to show how easy it is to make the questions biased in the opposite direction.

So here are the questions:
[snip]
Those aren't questions.
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby doomvox » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:21 am UTC

I'm more interested in triangular political diagrams these days. Like, "Where do you place <pundit> in the stupid-evil-crazy triangle? I used to think he was stupid, but now I think he might just be evil and just faking being stupid."

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby SaraPickell » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:24 am UTC

dash wrote:Ugh. WTF, is there some guest artist that has taken over the site? This and the previous one are probably the worst XKCD's I've ever seen.

Dude, if you're out of ideas, just end it. Don't drag it out in a long death that destroys your reputation. End on a high note...


Or he could, you know, keep going until he... and I know this is a really out there concept... but until he, you know, gets new ones.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby AlexTG » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:17 am UTC

My love of diamond shaped diagrams is so low I rotated my monitor around to make it a nice regular square diagram before reading.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby charonme » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:15 pm UTC

tech42er wrote:Most interesting is his "modest proposal"
It is really interesting. I agree that the original questions are not completely neutral and free of local and cultural context (which makes it a bit more difficult for non-americans to answer relevantly), but this "modest proposal" is much worse in regard of "loaded questions".

But if a honest different formulation or a slight variation of the same (relatively neutral and cultural context free) question places someone on a significantly different location on the graph, it says something about the (non)consistency and (non)coherency of his political and economical beliefs/preferences/notions/sentiments/reactions/ideas.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby brianpadraig » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:03 pm UTC

oddly enough i joined just to post this (and I have noticed that's a theme here, but i seriously did lol)... i have no f-ing clue why... I like most of these comics, but this was the first one i ever read when I was totally wasted drunk and I thought it was the most hilarious thing I've ever seen and i LAUGHED OUT LOUD, literally, my roomates seriously woke up and told me I shouldn't drink along cuz that makes me an alcoholic... I dunno why... it was totally unexpected, mostly because I was so drunk when I read it.


Oh me yarm GOOMRFHR (Oh me yarm Get Out OF My Roomate's F-ing Head Randal), he said this exact thing b4. does that make sense? no it doesn't lol, it makes enough sense to me lol.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby CptKnickers » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:06 pm UTC

Am I the only one who just spent an excessive amount of time laughing at a Wheatstone Bridge joke?

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Ghona » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

Instead of "other", the bottom square should be labeled "cubic zirconia"
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby LtNOWIS » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:22 pm UTC

xepher wrote:If I remember correctly, it is illegal in most of the USA. I know Nevada is an exception, but nothing else comes to mind.

It's actually only legal in some counties in Nevada. Specifically, the counties where very few people live. So, it's great if you're a trucker on I-80, but not really relevant in Las Vegas.

CorruptUser wrote:Political parties with in a struggle for the 'championship'. Lots of backstabbing, behind the scenes deals, betrayals, injuries/exposures, etc. Betrayals by players, switching teams, etc. Scandals galore. Plenty of die-hard fanatics on both sides, convinced that their side is the best and the other side is full of idiots/douches. Talk to a die-hard Red Sox or Mets fans about the Yankees; I've met hard-line Democrats say nicer things about the Republicans than what I heard my college freshman-year roommate say about the Yankees and Yankees fans.

Yeah, I'd say politics and sports are pretty similar.

Baseball is even more like politics than other sports, since the teams take turns being on offense and defense. One team is trying to accomplish things, while the other is committed to blocking them and re-taking the offensive.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby eran_rathan » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:41 pm UTC

doomvox wrote:I'm more interested in triangular political diagrams these days. Like, "Where do you place <pundit> in the stupid-evil-crazy triangle? I used to think he was stupid, but now I think he might just be evil and just faking being stupid."


this, for the win.


Rush Limbaugh: 1,1,0
Glen Beck: 1,1,1
Dr. Laura: 1,0,1

This now makes me want to calculate eigenvectors...
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Idhan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:48 am UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
doomvox wrote:I'm more interested in triangular political diagrams these days. Like, "Where do you place <pundit> in the stupid-evil-crazy triangle? I used to think he was stupid, but now I think he might just be evil and just faking being stupid."


this, for the win.


Rush Limbaugh: 1,1,0
Glen Beck: 1,1,1
Dr. Laura: 1,0,1

This now makes me want to calculate eigenvectors...


This seems more like a cube than a triangle. There are three dimensions, not three vertices.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby obzabor » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:56 am UTC

I'm wondering how "Internet libertarians" are different from other kinds of libertarians. And while we're at it, what other kinds of libertarians are out there? "Plain old/classical libertarians"? "Night club libertarians"? "Library libertarians"?

Also the Democrats and Republicans on the chart should be better clarified - are these "Internet democrats" and "Internet republicans", or any other kind?

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:08 am UTC

obzabor wrote:I'm wondering how "Internet libertarians" are different from other kinds of libertarians. And while we're at it, what other kinds of libertarians are out there? "Plain old/classical libertarians"? "Night club libertarians"? "Library libertarians"?

Internet libertarians tend to be idealistic kids who are genuinely and earnestly gung-ho about the idea of maximal freedom in every way. Too many meatspace Libertarians (especially capital-L types, i.e. Libertarian Party) are actually closet conservatives who either delude themselves that they really love freedom for its own sake to feel better about themselves and justify their true intentions, or just wear the clothes of freedom as a political charade to mask their true intentions, which in either case are often rather tolerant of authority, so long as it's "private" authority of few over many rather than "public" authority of many over few. (Both of which the genuine, earnest, idealistic internet libertarians are usually against).
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby charonme » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:58 am UTC

so what kind of libertarian does one became after reading Rothbard and Mises? An "internet" one? or your "closet conservative" one? or a "L"ibertarian?

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby derick » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:03 pm UTC

sab39 wrote: Their "appropriate level of spending" is just "half whatever the current level is at any given time".


Sounds like Republicans.

As they say "If the Democrats proposed burning down the White House, the Republicans would ferociously argue that they should instead burn down all but the West Wing."

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby BioTube » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:13 pm UTC

charonme wrote:
tech42er wrote:Most interesting is his "modest proposal"
It is really interesting. I agree that the original questions are not completely neutral and free of local and cultural context (which makes it a bit more difficult for non-americans to answer relevantly), but this "modest proposal" is much worse in regard of "loaded questions".

But if a honest different formulation or a slight variation of the same (relatively neutral and cultural context free) question places someone on a significantly different location on the graph, it says something about the (non)consistency and (non)coherency of his political and economical beliefs/preferences/notions/sentiments/reactions/ideas.
Loaded as they are, I found it pretty easy to agree with all of them. But then again, I live in a fiercely red state, so most of those questions get tossed around during every election and hardly get a reaction out of me.
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Cal Engime » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:04 pm UTC

charonme wrote:so what kind of libertarian does one became after reading Rothbard and Mises? An "internet" one? or your "closet conservative" one? or a "L"ibertarian?
A Jewish one. Mazel tov!

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Eternal Density » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:23 am UTC

rath358 wrote:Am I the only one who initially misread the top box as "internet librarians"?
Nope, I did it too.
[edit]
Also where do Minecraft players fit?
*mines obsidian with diamond pick and falls through into lava*
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby alexriehl » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:19 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
atomfullerene wrote:It's square though, not diamond shaped.


Actually, it's a rhombus.

technically, all squares are diamonds

And definitely not a rectangle. Those angles are 89.99 degrees and 90.01 degrees respectively! Too bad my monitor doesn't have the pixel density necessarily to display that.

Eternal Density wrote:Also where do Minecraft players fit?
*mines obsidian with diamond pick and falls through into lava*

*Minecraft music starts playing. It sounds pretty depressing when you're dying.*

[EDIT] Edited for dramatic effect. [/EDIT]
Last edited by alexriehl on Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:55 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Xentropy » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:49 am UTC

tech42er wrote:The problems with the Nolan quiz are extensively detailed here by Mark Rupright. Most interesting is his "modest proposal"

<snipped for space>


I'd actually answer yes to pretty much all of those. I'm genuinely surprised at how many people want the government to have complete control over exactly half of their life, but fight each other over which half. Personally, anything that only harms oneself and not other people, or is an example of "survival of the fittest", should be butt out of by the government. That means prostitution should be fine, drugs should be fine (even "hard" drugs that will kill you; if you want to kill yourself, that's your choice, not the government's), farms that are failing should be allowed to fail (if the economic model won't support it, it's a bad business, and artificially keeping it going is bad for everyone in the long term no matter how much it may hurt in the short term to let it fail), people who didn't save for their own retirement should be homeless at 80 instead of funded by the next generation, and so on. Basically if your own stupidity (or even bad luck) got you into a situation, it shouldn't be the government's job to bail you out. Sorry, that's life. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some people fall on hard times. Some of them don't make it back out. Forcing them to via welfare state is just weakening the entire society.

I couldn't possibly be more against both the legislation of morality *and* the welfare system. I guess I'm a "true" libertarian, though I don't really label myself anything politically, other than "not even close to how it is now" anywhere/anytime I've seen.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby FoolishOwl » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:42 am UTC

I was a bit surprised by the Wikipedia entry on the Nolan chart -- it's a rather long, laudatory article for a very simple idea, one that isn't particularly insightful.

While the language of the test and the char are biased in favor of libertarianism, it seems to me a reasonably accurate test, as far as such a simple test can be. My primary criticism of the test and the chart is that it implies that "economic freedom" and "personal freedom" are independent questions. It surprises me a little, as I'd expect a libertarian to argue that "economic freedom" and "personal freedom" are positively correlated. My secondary criticism is that the premise is exceedingly simplistic.

I have long considered myself a socialist; one reason is that it has always seemed to me that the distinction between states and corporations is an arbitrary one, and that if democracy is a good idea in the former, it is also a good idea for the latter. Unchecked power is a threat to human freedom, so governments should not have unchecked powers; civil liberties, which are guarantees of individual freedom, are limits on government power. Likewise, individual freedom should require limits on the freedom of large scale economic enterprises. I cannot see these as simple linear problems.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby cptjeff » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:47 am UTC

sab39 wrote:
I have a lot of sympathy for libertarianism, in theory, especially on the social side, but too many of its advocates turn me off by arguing from blatant illogic.


I suspect you would enjoy this:

Image

Credit where credit is due: http://www.leftycartoons.com/the-24-typ ... bertarian/

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby charonme » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:44 pm UTC

the 24 types of authoritarian (a parody)

FoolishOwl wrote:one that isn't particularly insightful.
In a world of politics dominated by the left-right dichotomy it simply unmasks the false distinction between economic and personal freedoms, showing that libertarianism is consistent in recognizing they are one. It is more of a tool to identify what libertarianism is in the context of the usual left-right oversimplification rather than a complete description and mapping of all possible political stances.

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby BioTube » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:18 pm UTC

FoolishOwl wrote:I have long considered myself a socialist; one reason is that it has always seemed to me that the distinction between states and corporations is an arbitrary one
The comparison between states and corporations is odd - the latter have to produce something people vaguely want and generally don't make most of their money through extortion(hence the usual comparison to gangs or pirates). Granted, an awful lot of corporations are bound at the hip to the state.
Unchecked power is a threat to human freedom, so governments should not have unchecked powers; civil liberties, which are guarantees of individual freedom, are limits on government power.
Almost everybody agrees with this statement - a surprising number then turn around and clamor for totalitarianism. That's probably the biggest issue we face today.
Likewise, individual freedom should require limits on the freedom of large scale economic enterprises.
A lot of the limits people like to talk about aren't necessary if you take away all the favors corporations get(like limited liability - turns out people are lot less conservative when it's not their asses on the line).
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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby fredfnord » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:01 pm UTC

Hooray for Mr Wheatstone!

Although I'd like to think that he would like hexagonal charts better:
http://www.thewhistleshop.com/catalog/otherinstruments/concertinas/mahogany/6concertina.JPG

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Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:52 am UTC

BioTube wrote:A lot of the limits people like to talk about aren't necessary if you take away all the favors corporations get(like limited liability - turns out people are lot less conservative when it's not their asses on the line).


This is an angle which I see a lot of libertarians bring up, and I like, but I don't think anyone has taken the idea really quite far enough. We need to do more than just get rid of the glaringly obvious government-corporate collusion; even in a classically "free" market, it's all too easy for those with wealth to dominate those without it. I have in recent years become in favor of certain changes not only to the law, but to the (theoretical) foundation of the law -- contracts, which are all at their heart a signing-away of one's rights -- which simultaneously limit what powers government can acquire over their citizens, in a very libertarian fashion, and what kinds of powers private parties can acquire over each other, particularly in the areas of rent and interest, which are the mechanisms by which concentrations in wealth are amplified and the market becomes unequal and thus unfree.

The hard part of working such a system, or really any libertarian theory taken to its logical extreme, is that all taxes are shown to be illegitimate; yet without a referee in the market, there's nobody to stop the biggest players from cheating at the expense of everyone else. What's really needed is an alternative to taxes for funding at least a minarchist government-like organization, and that's the big problem I've been thinking about lately. The angle I'm taking is something like a non-profit organization which provides subsidies for privately-supplied government-like functions on a sliding scale basis (similar to progressive "taxation", except in reverse, giving more to the poor rather than taking more from the rich), while simultaneously investing heavily in the private companies whose services it helps subsidize (as well as in other long-term, stable ventures, like mutual funds; charitable donations of course; and "charitable" loans, ala bonds).

It would take a lot capital to get such a venture up and running and self-sufficient; but then, it also takes quite a lot to build a classical state from scratch out of anarchy. Much more sensible would be to take the existing state apparatus and gradually transition it to something like this: spinning off service departments into private companies and offering subsidies on their services in compensation to the people whose taxes were paying for those services, while turning the corporate welfare budget into a corporate investment budget and gradually building up a profitable portfolio of government investments in private enterprises, which can gradually substitute for tax income. In the end, the government has broad investments throughout the economy and an internal revenue stream from those investments proportional to general economic activity, almost like it was taxing income... and it's using the profits from those investments to subsidize essential services for the poor, progressively. And yet nobody was ever forced to pay a dime by law. Some people would call such broad government investment in (i.e. partial ownership of) private enterprise "socialist"... and yet, by doing so, we may eliminate taxes.

So tell me quick, which side of what spectrum am I on?
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

charonme
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:18 am UTC

Re: 0868: "Nolan Chart"

Postby charonme » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:15 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:without a referee in the market, there's nobody to stop the biggest players from cheating at the expense of everyone else
a (human) referee above the market is impossible. Everything human is within the market. Right now we don't have a real referee either and the biggest players (you could call them governments, states, politicians, mafia...) are cheating at the expense of everyone else. Plus, they are keeping their "biggest" position so that they wouldn't be threatened by competition. To keep their position they also play a role of a "referee" to some degree and create the impression that they're irreplaceable.


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