0900: "Religions"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

mcv
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:52 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby mcv » Sat May 21, 2011 8:28 am UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:
Klear wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote:
I don't think it's that big of a stretch, but even suggesting that other religions may have merit gets me shunned at family gatherings sometimes.


This, however, needs to be clarified, and that confusion may be causing your issue regarding your family. When you say 'merit', are you claiming that the followers might be nice fellas, that just happen to be sincerely following an incorrect or incomplete religious picture? Or does 'merit' here imply that their beliefs have some form of 'validity' and Truth, whether because you reject a sizable chunk of your own religion (it's claims that it is the only correct way to God) or because "it's all relative" (or some variation on that idea)?


Does it matter? Neither of these should result in you being shunned at family gatherings!


The latter one definitely should. You would basically be telling your family that their religion is all wrong, without any real reason to do so. They don't like it, and therefore reject association with you, as is their right under the First Amendment (and its equivalent in other Western countries). Pissing people off and seeing them withdraw from you and "shun" you is a normal response.

Expressing an opinion should get you shunned by your family? That's a pretty scary family. In my opinion, a healthy family loves even its black sheep. Even losing your faith completely shouldn't get you shunned, and that goes quite a bit further than simply being tolerant of other religions. Of course if you go out of your way to convert family members to your point of view, that might be considered obnoxious, and if you persist, then yes, you might expect to get shunned.

But a family has to have incredibly fragile family ties in order to shun its members over merely suggesting there might be some merit in other faiths.

User avatar
dr pepper
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:28 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby dr pepper » Sat May 21, 2011 10:10 am UTC

vodka.cobra wrote:On May 21, I'm going to run out onto the streets excitedly and see if all the religious nuts are gone. That would be a wonderful day. Then me and the sane people (religious or not) can move on with out lives.


And loot the possessions of the ascended!

User avatar
darkspork
Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:43 am UTC
Location: Land of Trains and Suburbs

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby darkspork » Sat May 21, 2011 10:03 pm UTC

Hey look! The world ended four minutes ago!
Shameless Website Promotion: Gamma Energy
My new esoteric programming language: GLOBOL
An experiment to mess with Google Search results: HARDCORE PORNOGRAPHY HARDCORE PORNOGRAPHY

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby KrytenKoro » Sun May 22, 2011 5:59 am UTC

mcv wrote:Expressing an opinion should get you shunned by your family? That's a pretty scary family. In my opinion, a healthy family loves even its black sheep. Even losing your faith completely shouldn't get you shunned, and that goes quite a bit further than simply being tolerant of other religions. Of course if you go out of your way to convert family members to your point of view, that might be considered obnoxious, and if you persist, then yes, you might expect to get shunned.

But a family has to have incredibly fragile family ties in order to shun its members over merely suggesting there might be some merit in other faiths.


If truth is unimportant, then sure, telling them that what they believe to be the most basic, axiomatic truth is false, without attempting to give any kind of logical reasoning (the situation that collegestudent put forth), should get you shunned. From their point of view, you would have to either be an enemy of truth, or simply purposefully obnoxious.

I seriously don't get the reasoning behind people saying that there are more important things than religion, unless your religion is specifically that nothing you do, say, or believe in life affects any kind of afterlife (for example, atheism). For "real" Zoroastranians, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Greeks, Norse, and I assume everything else but possibly Buddhism (does letting go of earthly connections and desires include the desire to let go of them?) and Hinduism (not quite sure, since "do what you're supposed to do" might not require believing that you must do what you're supposed to do), your faith is the central point of your identity and being - any idea that "there are more important things to do or worry about" directly contradicts the basic tenets of the religion.

I mean, by all means be kind and gentle to others about your faith (unless your religion directs you to spread the Word by the sword...), but seriously....people saying "Let's not talk about it, it's not important" just really, really sound like imbeciles to me (again, unless they are atheists or something, in which it makes sense).
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

collegestudent22
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:36 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby collegestudent22 » Sun May 22, 2011 4:47 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
mcv wrote:Expressing an opinion should get you shunned by your family? That's a pretty scary family. In my opinion, a healthy family loves even its black sheep. Even losing your faith completely shouldn't get you shunned, and that goes quite a bit further than simply being tolerant of other religions. Of course if you go out of your way to convert family members to your point of view, that might be considered obnoxious, and if you persist, then yes, you might expect to get shunned.

But a family has to have incredibly fragile family ties in order to shun its members over merely suggesting there might be some merit in other faiths.


If truth is unimportant, then sure, telling them that what they believe to be the most basic, axiomatic truth is false, without attempting to give any kind of logical reasoning (the situation that collegestudent put forth), should get you shunned. From their point of view, you would have to either be an enemy of truth, or simply purposefully obnoxious.


Quite likely, they just view you as being an obnoxious jerk, and, while they still consider you family, also don't feel a need to hang around with you.

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Vaskafdt » Sun May 22, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:I mean, by all means be kind and gentle to others about your faith (unless your religion directs you to spread the Word by the sword...), but seriously....people saying "Let's not talk about it, it's not important" just really, really sound like imbeciles to me (again, unless they are atheists or something, in which it makes sense).


Let's not talk about it, it's not important, just means the discussion of our faith (or lack thereof) is of no importance to me. it doesn't say they don't find their faith itself important, at least that is how I see it.

As far as I can tell most of my family (including me) are atheists.. tho my mom is a strong follower of astrology... if she talks to me about it, I tell her that I don't wish to talk about astrology, if she persists I tell her I think astrology is nonsense.
If she doesn't bring it up, neither do I.
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby addams » Sun May 22, 2011 10:22 pm UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:I mean, by all means be kind and gentle to others about your faith (unless your religion directs you to spread the Word by the sword...), but seriously....people saying "Let's not talk about it, it's not important" just really, really sound like imbeciles to me (again, unless they are atheists or something, in which it makes sense).


Let's not talk about it, it's not important, just means the discussion of our faith (or lack thereof) is of no importance to me. it doesn't say they don't find their faith itself important, at least that is how I see it.

As far as I can tell most of my family (including me) are atheists.. tho my mom is a strong follower of astrology... if she talks to me about it, I tell her that I don't wish to talk about astrology, if she persists I tell her I think astrology is nonsense.
If she doesn't bring it up, neither do I.

Oh. I am so sorry. That kind of thing has happened to me, too.
Astronomy is so much better than Astrology. It hurts.

Some Astrology books are better than others. It is, just, a Religion.
Is your mom at all interested in your Science stuff? Do you cook together?

I have had a person do my chart and tell other people what I can and can not do. It is true! That is bad. It is a helpless feeling. The star chart says 'this' and the star chart says 'that'. Jeeze. Really? The star chart?
I was upset. I wanted to tell her that she was reading a mirror.

I did not tell her how stupid I thought she was. I walked out. It is nice to have the option of walking out.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby KrytenKoro » Sun May 22, 2011 10:24 pm UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:I mean, by all means be kind and gentle to others about your faith (unless your religion directs you to spread the Word by the sword...), but seriously....people saying "Let's not talk about it, it's not important" just really, really sound like imbeciles to me (again, unless they are atheists or something, in which it makes sense).


Let's not talk about it, it's not important, just means the discussion of our faith (or lack thereof) is of no importance to me. it doesn't say they don't find their faith itself important, at least that is how I see it.

As far as I can tell most of my family (including me) are atheists.. tho my mom is a strong follower of astrology... if she talks to me about it, I tell her that I don't wish to talk about astrology, if she persists I tell her I think astrology is nonsense.
If she doesn't bring it up, neither do I.


And like I said, that should be fine for atheistic beliefs like astrology. But if you're talking to someone in which believing in "the truth" is a component of actually attaining whatever the equivalent of salvation is, then simply waving the discussion of as "unimportant" is and should be incredibly offensive.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Vaskafdt » Sun May 22, 2011 11:26 pm UTC

addams wrote:Oh. I am so sorry. That kind of thing has happened to me, too.
Astronomy is so much better than Astrology. It hurts.

Some Astrology books are better than others. It is, just, a Religion.
Is your mom at all interested in your Science stuff? Do you cook together?

I have had a person do my chart and tell other people what I can and can not do. It is true! That is bad. It is a helpless feeling. The star chart says 'this' and the star chart says 'that'. Jeeze. Really? The star chart?
I was upset. I wanted to tell her that she was reading a mirror.

I did not tell her how stupid I thought she was. I walked out. It is nice to have the option of walking out.


well.. i see my mom about once/twice a month. (usually when her computer "breaks down" and i come over and show her where she jolted down her email password) sometimes she tells me I should be extra careful of travel or that I will have a good day at work or some other generic stuff she read somewhere.. she defiantly doesn't open charts.. she just reads stuff on astrology websites.. and treats it like it's gospel.

addams wrote:And like I said, that should be fine for atheistic beliefs like astrology. But if you're talking to someone in which believing in "the truth" is a component of actually attaining whatever the equivalent of salvation is, then simply waving the discussion of as "unimportant" is and should be incredibly offensive.


"the truth"? how is one set of superstitions different from another?
the discussion is unimportant to me. why is my right to keep my faith, or my lack of faith as a private matter, be considered rude? why is my right to privacy less important then their feelings?

Dave Barry wrote:People who want to share their religious views with you, almost never want you to share yours with them.


a family that shuns their child, because he has a different view of the world is a family I would be glad to be shunned from. it's a family of fanaticism and evil in my opinion...
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

collegestudent22
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:36 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby collegestudent22 » Mon May 23, 2011 1:43 am UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:
addams wrote:And like I said, that should be fine for atheistic beliefs like astrology. But if you're talking to someone in which believing in "the truth" is a component of actually attaining whatever the equivalent of salvation is, then simply waving the discussion of as "unimportant" is and should be incredibly offensive.


"the truth"? how is one set of superstitions different from another?


One is accepted as true and important above all else by these family members.

the discussion is unimportant to me. why is my right to keep my faith, or my lack of faith as a private matter, be considered rude? why is my right to privacy less important then their feelings?


Because you are essentially shunning your family, and then wondering why they shun you in return.

Dave Barry wrote:People who want to share their religious views with you, almost never want you to share yours with them.


Having a discussion is something entirely different. Just up and telling someone that their beliefs are not important is incredibly offensive when trying to maintain civil discourse, no matter what the field is.

a family that shuns their child, because he has a different view of the world is a family I would be glad to be shunned from. it's a family of fanaticism and evil in my opinion...


You seem to take an extreme view of the word "shun". We aren't talking about disowning the kid. We're talking about avoiding them at family functions, in favor of those members of the family that aren't being obstinate jackasses. Case in point, my cousin is an atheist. At family functions, if the discussion turns to religion and involves her, she merely makes mention of that fact, and those that want to continue the discussion leave, or the topic is changed. There is no need for here to put down the importance of our beliefs - she just expresses a desire to change the subject. It's all about being polite.

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Vaskafdt » Mon May 23, 2011 2:12 am UTC

let me get this straight.

When I stand in front of a faithful person, and claim there is no God, I am basically a jerk that insults him, and claim that his entire way of life is wrong. And he will be right to take insult.

but if a faithful person comes to me, claims the existence of God, implying that my entire way of life is wrong, sinful and down right evil.. I should be polite to him.. or I deserve to be a black sheep to be avoided at all cost?


that's is pretty much how I understand your views.

please correct me if I'm wrong.
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

collegestudent22
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:36 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby collegestudent22 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:27 am UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:let me get this straight.

When I stand in front of a faithful person, and claim there is no God, I am basically a jerk that insults him, and claim that his entire way of life is wrong. And he will be right to take insult.

but if a faithful person comes to me, claims the existence of God, implying that my entire way of life is wrong, sinful and down right evil.. I should be polite to him.. or I deserve to be a black sheep to be avoided at all cost?


that's is pretty much how I understand your views.

please correct me if I'm wrong.


Quite wrong. One difference is that an atheist, such as yourself, has no logical reason to run around claiming that my way of life is wrong and God does not exist (whereas a sensible religious person may be attempting to help you, as they see it). Furthermore, I have not said that a faithful person running around claiming the existence of God is being a polite person. There are ways to go about discussing these things without being rude, such as dropping it when asked.

My point was that, based on what was said, the person being shunned was not being polite about the subject. Whether his family was polite when bringing it up in the first place, I cannot say.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon May 23, 2011 2:33 am UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:let me get this straight.

When I stand in front of a faithful person, and claim there is no God, I am basically a jerk that insults him, and claim that his entire way of life is wrong. And he will be right to take insult.

but if a faithful person comes to me, claims the existence of God, implying that my entire way of life is wrong, sinful and down right evil.. I should be polite to him.. or I deserve to be a black sheep to be avoided at all cost?


that's is pretty much how I understand your views.

please correct me if I'm wrong.


Then you weren't listening at all, and you seem like you're inserting your own experiences into what was actually said. OR, you fundamentally misunderstand that most religions are not atheism, or even the same as each other, and so it is ridiculous to ask that they have the same rules.

If you believe in a form of atheism where "believing in the truth" is an important thing, and you are talking to any form of religious person who also believes that "believing in the truth" is important, then it makes no sense to say "just drop it". That would be equivalent to saying "Well, I know that if I stand here and let you drown, you'll die, but I'd rather not deal with the trouble and awkwardness."

So, to go back to collegestudent's situation:

Person A says that person B's religion is meaningless, but refuses to give any kind of reason for it.
Person B's religion places the point of existence on following meaning, and correcting your beliefs if they are wrong.

So, Person A is attacking Person B's central belief, but refusing to help them correct it.

How is that anything but obnoxious or evil?

What Person A could have done is to instead explain why they don't believe in person A's religion, allowing person B to attain "the truth" (again, I never said here that "the truth" was Christian belief. I was talking specifically about what any personal or organized belief system holds to be fundamentally true, including atheism), which is the central goal of their existence.

Or, if they don't want to do that, just be silent. If you have a belief, but not conviction or desire to help others understand your "truth", then you have no place to be attacking others' beliefs in their "truths".


For example, let's reverse the situation. Let's say person B is an atheist, and their view of the world holds that truth is an absolute good, and that lies and fictions should be corrected. Person A is a fundamentalist Christian.

Person A goes up to Person B and says, matter-of-factly, something like "Eh, I believe evolution is a lie, but you can't argue with me about it, because science is unimportant."

Would you say that someone like that should be welcomed and encouraged, rather than ignored?
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby addams » Mon May 23, 2011 2:48 am UTC

You wrote the following:
"the truth"? how is one set of superstitions different from another?

I like the way you think. I have listened to people tell me that Science is Voo Doo.
I have listened and they do make a point. From where they see it, Science is, just, another superstition.

The grand daddies of all sciences Math and Chemistry are made up unimportant nonsense to them.
I respond by getting out a book or reading xkcd.

It is not nice. But; To think that some guy is going to show up in a space ship and save the good people from each other is easy thinking. No matter what a person does, or, why they do it. The space ship guy will forgive them and everything will be all right. It makes a nice fairy tail.

Who put him up there and his space ship, too? We could get a visitor from outer space. We could get a visitor from outer space and a another time.

My Religion is no goofier than any body else's. My Religion is a Hell of a lot more difficult to understand. I can understand why people like to find something easy to understand and stick with it. Math is hard. I like to watch other people do it.
Some people watch football. When I am given the opportunity I like watching numbers guys. So, funny. Numbers guys crack me up. Have you ever seen one lose his way?

Oranges; Here.
Apples; There.
Bananas; In this set.
Twelve other fruits, too.
Then; It was so funny. It was all written down. But, there was a mistake somewhere.

There comes a time even in Math, when, a person must let it go. It is mostly all in your mind, anyway.
Nice warm food and a stiff drink seem to help.

Every Religion runs into that. Maybe. Mine does. Crash.

Oh! Oh! for the scripture and verse types. I did read their book. Hand them a Physical Chemistry book.

Or; Don't. It pisses them off and I have never seen one of those books that was easy to carry around.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Vaskafdt » Mon May 23, 2011 3:04 am UTC

The fundamentals of each faith system are different, but the fundamental ways people behave is often very similar.

And yes I'm using my own personal experience as contrast and reference points to the words I hear (or read). a person that doesn't let his own experience influence his discussions will be a boring one indeed. I'm also using my perceptions of language or semantics to interpret your words. just the way any other person does.

also I'm not the text book definition of an atheist, I'm somewhere between agnostic and atheist. I see God as extremely unlikely but theoretically possible (for some interpretations of the word God).

and my point goes both to strong believers, and atheists. when someone is set in his ways, no amount of discussion is going to sway him to see reason (the reason of the one doing the talking)
when someone initiates a faith based discussion.. I see the discussion itself as fruitless, he will not convince me of anything, there is no proof or disproof of God that stands to scrutiny. after countless such "discussions" i have failed to make even one person change his views.. so what's the point of the discussion?
that is why.. this discussion is in my opinion meaningless. not because the subject matter is without merit.

I will never come to a believer and tell him there is no God. I expect the same courtesy. I don't want to hear about your deity.
My experience with the strong believers that i met (not all of them, but most of those that initiate such talks) is that they act exactly like you shown in your last example. My experience with atheists is that they usually leave you alone, unless you push it in their face.. in which case they just resort to mockery.

tl;dr it's the person who stands up to preach, who is the jerk.. not the one who is trying to avoid the silly argument.

I would never have participated in a discussion on the forum about the existence or lack of God. the way I see it, this is a discussion of manners.


also: I don't mean to say that there cannot be faith discussions between people who believe different things. just that there is only a polite way to start them.

ask me a question about my faith, and listen. then I will ask you a question back, and will be much more likely to listen as well. you will be surprised what such an approach will do to the open mildness of the person talking to you.


Edit: I agree with addams, Science is just another faith, (or superstition as I called it earlier) after all.. maybe we are all in a computer simulation. or a million other explanations.
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

collegestudent22
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:36 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby collegestudent22 » Mon May 23, 2011 3:29 am UTC

addams wrote:The grand daddies of all sciences Math and Chemistry


Chemistry is just applied Physics.

KrytenKoro wrote:
Vaskafdt wrote:let me get this straight.

When I stand in front of a faithful person, and claim there is no God, I am basically a jerk that insults him, and claim that his entire way of life is wrong. And he will be right to take insult.

but if a faithful person comes to me, claims the existence of God, implying that my entire way of life is wrong, sinful and down right evil.. I should be polite to him.. or I deserve to be a black sheep to be avoided at all cost?


that's is pretty much how I understand your views.

please correct me if I'm wrong.


Then you weren't listening at all, and you seem like you're inserting your own experiences into what was actually said. OR, you fundamentally misunderstand that most religions are not atheism, or even the same as each other, and so it is ridiculous to ask that they have the same rules.

If you believe in a form of atheism where "believing in the truth" is an important thing, and you are talking to any form of religious person who also believes that "believing in the truth" is important, then it makes no sense to say "just drop it". That would be equivalent to saying "Well, I know that if I stand here and let you drown, you'll die, but I'd rather not deal with the trouble and awkwardness."

So, to go back to collegestudent's situation:

Person A says that person B's religion is meaningless, but refuses to give any kind of reason for it.
Person B's religion places the point of existence on following meaning, and correcting your beliefs if they are wrong.

So, Person A is attacking Person B's central belief, but refusing to help them correct it.

How is that anything but obnoxious or evil?

What Person A could have done is to instead explain why they don't believe in person A's religion, allowing person B to attain "the truth" (again, I never said here that "the truth" was Christian belief. I was talking specifically about what any personal or organized belief system holds to be fundamentally true, including atheism), which is the central goal of their existence.

Or, if they don't want to do that, just be silent. If you have a belief, but not conviction or desire to help others understand your "truth", then you have no place to be attacking others' beliefs in their "truths".


For example, let's reverse the situation. Let's say person B is an atheist, and their view of the world holds that truth is an absolute good, and that lies and fictions should be corrected. Person A is a fundamentalist Christian.

Person A goes up to Person B and says, matter-of-factly, something like "Eh, I believe evolution is a lie, but you can't argue with me about it, because science is unimportant."

Would you say that someone like that should be welcomed and encouraged, rather than ignored?


Well put, IMO.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon May 23, 2011 3:36 am UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:And yes I'm using my own personal experience as contrast and reference points to the words I hear (or read). a person that doesn't let his own experience influence his discussions will be a boring one indeed. I'm also using my perceptions of language or semantics to interpret your words. just the way any other person does.

Jolly, but irrelevant. Collegestudent was replying with a specific situation to a specific question. His answer made sense. I was responding to mcv's complaint about that specific situation: A nonbeliever of the belief in question flippantly saying that the belief in question is unimportant, with NO PROMPTING FROM THE BELIEVER.

If you were talking about a different situation, I apologize for misreading you.

and my point goes both to strong believers, and atheists. when someone is set in his ways, no amount of discussion is going to sway him to see reason (the reason of the one doing the talking)
when someone initiates a faith based discussion.. I see the discussion itself as fruitless, he will not convince me of anything, there is no proof or disproof of God that stands to scrutiny. after countless such "discussions" i have failed to make even one person change his views.. so what's the point of the discussion?
that is why.. this discussion is in my opinion meaningless. not because the subject matter is without merit.

I will never come to a believer and tell him there is no God. I expect the same courtesy. I don't want to hear about your deity.

If that is your belief, then that is your belief. Christianity, and I assume most other non-ethnic religions, says that you HAVE to proselytize and try to "correct the unbeliever". A Christian who just gave up on you because "it's hard" would in fact be betraying the tenets of his identity. As I said earlier, it makes no sense to "expect the same courtesy", just as a Christian would be ridiculous to expect that an atheist was charitable to them or would help baptize them.

tl;dr it's the person who stands up to preach, who is the jerk.. not the one who is trying to avoid the silly argument.

Again, your belief, which makes sense in regards to traditional forms of atheism or agnosticism. However, it is a ludicrous and highly offensive sentiment to anyone whose beliefs hold that knowing or spreading "the truth" is important, whether they be Christian, Mormon, Atheist, or other.

For Christianity, at least, Paul says you are to have love in your words, too, so it might please you to know that the Westboro Baptists, and people who try to "scare" or "hate" you into converting are betraying their alleged beliefs. In Christianity, you absolutely are commanded to be kind about spreading the word, but you are never supposed to be silent about it.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Vaskafdt » Mon May 23, 2011 4:19 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Jolly, but irrelevant. Collegestudent was replying with a specific situation to a specific question. His answer made sense. I was responding to mcv's complaint about that specific situation: A nonbeliever of the belief in question flippantly saying that the belief in question is unimportant, with NO PROMPTING FROM THE BELIEVER.


we were talking about the same situation and question.. I assume we just interpreted it differently.

the way I see it..

I don't think it's that big of a stretch, but even suggesting that other religions may have merit gets me shunned at family gatherings sometimes.


you see.. my personal experience makes it hard for me to imagine this comment just popping out of thin air.. it looks more like a response to an ongoing discussion..


as for your point about Christianity.
there are many faiths in the world, many bizarre and strange (due to culture differences) and just because a tenant of one of the popular ones says they should keep trying to convert me, doesn't mean that I should ignore their bad manners.

but Christians don't actually bother me. I can count on the fingers of my left hand the number of Christians i personally know.

Here in Israel I am surrounded by people who believe that since I am Jewish, I should follow their view of Judaism.
they claim that I offend them by expressing a wish for public transportation on Shabbos, they are offended when they see me eat a cheeseburger. many neighborhoods I will get literally stoned if I break any of their rules in public..
so I avoid those neighborhoods, I don't want to cause conflict.. but they don't avoid my neighborhood. they don't mind approaching my little brother and trying to convince him that their way is the right one.. they don't mind verbally asulting my sister and calling her words I will not repeat here, for the great offence of displaying her shoulders in public. and what gulls me is that everyone seems to be OK with it.. because they have faith.


I have faith as well.. I believe that if there is a god, then he doesn't care if you cut toilet paper on the wrong day, that he doesn't care if I shook the hand of a lady friend, or that he doesn't care what hat you are wearing. (all those for some reason are very important to them) but if I will go and try to convert them.. I will be seen as the bad guy.

this is what gulls me, the double standard. I don't care what they believe.. all I want is to be left alone.

I can deal with my religious friends. they are the live and let live kind, I can deal with my religious coworkers, they are more concerned with whether or not I do my job, then with my soul.. but the occasional people who believe they are allowed to preach (and worse), just because they have the "true" faith.. those.. I don't really like. this is the exact trait that gets the W.B.C. so hated.

also. about the W. Baptists, they might hold a different view about Christianity and it's meaning then most other Christians.. but they don't betray their believes.. they stick to them.
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon May 23, 2011 5:20 am UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:Jolly, but irrelevant. Collegestudent was replying with a specific situation to a specific question. His answer made sense. I was responding to mcv's complaint about that specific situation: A nonbeliever of the belief in question flippantly saying that the belief in question is unimportant, with NO PROMPTING FROM THE BELIEVER.


we were talking about the same situation and question.. I assume we just interpreted it differently.

the way I see it..

I don't think it's that big of a stretch, but even suggesting that other religions may have merit gets me shunned at family gatherings sometimes.


you see.. my personal experience makes it hard for me to imagine this comment just popping out of thin air.. it looks more like a response to an ongoing discussion..

....right. One that collegestudent replied to on the other page, with a list of possible reasons, and vmc replied to again. Which is why I keep saying "in collegestudent's situation". So it seems that, yes, you were talking about a different hypothetical than me, and I apologize for misunderstanding you.

Making assumptions (ASS-U-ME, hahaha), I would guess that the family of the guy in question is probably shutting out all discussion, which, further assuming that they were Christians, would be antithetical to the explicit tenets of their religion. There's even a parable (about badly-planted crops) about why you should not act like the family in question, again, assuming that any of my assumptions are correct. So, they would not be in the right.

Assuming.

as for your point about Christianity.
there are many faiths in the world, many bizarre and strange (due to culture differences) and just because a tenant of one of the popular ones says they should keep trying to convert me, doesn't mean that I should ignore their bad manners.

If a tenet of your faith is to not ignore what it defines as bad manners, sure. Doing it despite that is simply trying to impinge on religious freedom.

Here in Israel I am surrounded by people who believe that since I am Jewish, I should follow their view of Judaism.
they claim that I offend them by expressing a wish for public transportation on Shabbos, they are offended when they see me eat a cheeseburger. many neighborhoods I will get literally stoned if I break any of their rules in public..
so I avoid those neighborhoods, I don't want to cause conflict.. but they don't avoid my neighborhood. they don't mind approaching my little brother and trying to convince him that their way is the right one.. they don't mind verbally asulting my sister and calling her words I will not repeat here, for the great offence of displaying her shoulders in public. and what gulls me is that everyone seems to be OK with it.. because they have faith.

...again, that is their faith. That is how they define the core of their identity. Of course it makes sense that they are doing it. Demanding they do anything else is quite literally forcing others' beliefs on them.

Like I've been trying to say, this applies no matter the belief system. I don't agree with everything Richard Dawkins says, but I respect that his beliefs compel him to proselytize his message, and so I don't fault him as a cold, cruel person for it. I may, from the viewpoint of my faith, believe that what he is saying is detrimental to the souls of his audience, but my personal beliefs would compel me to either attempt to counter his message with similar proselytization, attempt to convert him directly, or most biblically, pray to my God to show him His truth.

Many of my friends are atheists, and I respect their stances a lot of the time. I may disagree with it, and I will certainly attempt to reason with them, but I would not shun any person unless they were fundamentally untrue to their beliefs (for example, claiming to base their beliefs solely on empirical science and rational logic, but being tremendously lazy, intellectually), or if they refused to discuss the matter at all.

I have faith as well.. I believe that if there is a god, then he doesn't care if you cut toilet paper on the wrong day, that he doesn't care if I shook the hand of a lady friend, or that he doesn't care what hat you are wearing. (all those for some reason are very important to them) but if I will go and try to convert them.. I will be seen as the bad guy.

No one was talking about attempting to convert being the bad thing. In fact, most of what you responded to said that, if your beliefs compel you to, you are absolutely expected to proselytize.

this is what gulls me, the double standard. I don't care what they believe.. all I want is to be left alone.

And they want to not leave you alone. So we can't say what is right and wrong based solely on what individuals "want". And without bringing in a divinity to say that "oh, religion X is right, all others are wrong", we can't say what is absolutely good and bad. The closest we can do, while retaining freedom of belief, is to ask people to be true to their sincere beliefs. That is a single standard for everyone, which allows for self-liberty.

I can deal with my religious friends. they are the live and let live kind, I can deal with my religious coworkers, they are more concerned with whether or not I do my job, then with my soul.. but the occasional people who believe they are allowed to preach (and worse), just because they have the "true" faith.. those.. I don't really like. this is the exact trait that gets the W.B.C. so hated.

No, the exact trait that gets them hated is the fact that they use hatred to proselytize. It is totally possible to preach with love and kindness - it's as simple as saying "this seems true to me, for these reasons, and it has given me these benefits. If you follow it, you should be rewarded as well."

As for your friends and coworkers - I sincerely hope that they do not belong to any religion, such as Christianity, that asks followers to "spread the good word". If they do claim to follow that, and they show as much apathy to others' souls as you claim, then they are either traitors to their faith, moral cowards, or they simply don't like you and don't want to see you in the afterlife. Either way, there is nothing to respect about such a stance.

also. about the W. Baptists, they might hold a different view about Christianity and it's meaning then most other Christians.. but they don't betray their believes.. they stick to them.

The innate dishonesty in their practice is that they claim to follow the Bible, a written document, which explicitly says not to spread the word of God through hatred. Hell, for all the "divinely-blessed wars" in the Bible, I don't think any of them were actually about trying to spread their religion; more about "these people are evil, it's better to give them unto death then allow them to live and spread evil even farther."
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Vaskafdt » Mon May 23, 2011 6:04 am UTC

well by your logic, if you have Muslim neighbor who happens to be a Shariah judge, and he has evidence that your daughter had premarital sex, he will be completely right in seizing her, putting her under Islamic trial, and eventually stoning her. and you will approach him and shake his hand for following his religious believes.

you should read about Religious coercion,
For example, One of the fundamental principles of Islamic faith is Jihad, meaning a military effort or war against the pagans (idol worshipers) in order to make them accept upon themselves the religion of Islam, or against non-Muslims whom have attacked Muslims or rebel against a Muslim government.

I give you Muslim examples not because they are any worse then Christian examples. there are many people who do things in the name of Christ, that do not fall within your interpretation of his message. but any example of christian wrong doing so far (even the most minor) prompts a response that they are not true Christians. A close minded view in my opinion. holy texts can be interpreted in many ways.. and every single person is convinced that his understanding is the right one. discussing of religion is something many atheists wish to avoid.

lets take another hypothetical situation: an atheist truly believes that religion in all it's forms is a cancer that is slowly killing humanity, he will appropriate a firearm and go to the streets to get rid of religious people one bullet at a time. again by your rational.. he is right in upholding his inner most important faith.

if a satanist goes to a kindergarten, with little Satan dolls.. and tries to convert children.. I doubt any "true christian" will sit quietly and let it happen.

I can give you more examples. but my point is. people should have the right to hold their faith private, and avoid Religious coercion in their life. it goes both ways.. even if a christian truly truly believes he must convert me.
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

collegestudent22
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:36 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby collegestudent22 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:31 pm UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:well by your logic, if you have Muslim neighbor who happens to be a Shariah judge, and he has evidence that your daughter had premarital sex, he will be completely right in seizing her, putting her under Islamic trial, and eventually stoning her. and you will approach him and shake his hand for following his religious believes.


Proselytizing and religious coercion through force are not the same. This hypothetical Muslim neighbor has every right to say whatever he wants to you or your daughter about what you do. He has no right to violate your rights to be secure in your persons.

if a satanist goes to a kindergarten, with little Satan dolls.. and tries to convert children.. I doubt any "true christian" will sit quietly and let it happen.


Religion is barred from public schools. And I don't see any "Satanist" private schools around.

people should have the right to hold their faith private, and avoid Religious coercion in their life. it goes both ways.. even if a christian truly truly believes he must convert me.


Again, religious coercion and proselytizing are not the same. They are fundamentally different - the first is defined by a threat of some kind if you don't accept their beliefs, while the other is a sincere effort to convince you that the path you are taking is wrong and another path should be taken. There are no threats of violence or anything with the latter. (And, no, being "shunned" is not a threat - it is the other person exercising their right to association, which necessarily includes a right to NOT associate with others.)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby addams » Mon May 23, 2011 3:06 pm UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:
Vaskafdt wrote:well by your logic, if you have Muslim neighbor who happens to be a Shariah judge, and he has evidence that your daughter had premarital sex, he will be completely right in seizing her, putting her under Islamic trial, and eventually stoning her. and you will approach him and shake his hand for following his religious believes.


Proselytizing and religious coercion through force are not the same. This hypothetical Muslim neighbor has every right to say whatever he wants to you or your daughter about what you do. He has no right to violate your rights to be secure in your persons.

if a satanist goes to a kindergarten, with little Satan dolls.. and tries to convert children.. I doubt any "true christian" will sit quietly and let it happen.


Religion is barred from public schools. And I don't see any "Satanist" private schools around. [i][b]Just one statement. I knew a woman in Washington State. She works with children. She is a counselor in a public school. She says that she is Catholic. She has Voo Doo dolls and she uses them. Creepy. Voo Doo is a solid Religion. They have every right to it. It works just as well as any other. But, I don't want it. When, she uses VooDoo at school it is not considered religion, because, most people know nothing about it. Not all religions are open. [/b][/i]

people should have the right to hold their faith private, and avoid Religious coercion in their life. it goes both ways.. even if a christian truly truly believes he must convert me.


Again, religious coercion and proselytizing are not the same. They are fundamentally different - the first is defined by a threat of some kind if you don't accept their beliefs, while the other is a sincere effort to convince you that the path you are taking is wrong and another path should be taken. There are no threats of violence or anything with the latter. (And, no, being "shunned" is not a threat - it is the other person exercising their right to association, which necessarily includes a right to NOT associate with others.)


I was thinking about this thread. If, there are Gods, then, maybe there is a reason for proselytizing. When other people tell us about their Religions we discover things that we should know. Not the make-believe stuff, but, the real life things that they do in the name of their Gods.
Human sacrifice can come back in a heart beat. There are laws to protect us from that. Is it a valid argument in the international court that Freedom of Religion trumps all else? "No." Right?
There is an international court. Right?
Who's Religion wins? Laws are just ideas.

My Religion is Science with a great deal of Faith in the men and women that study Justice. There is a place in Europe where humans worship Justice. They think about it all the time. They do the work that they do in the name of Justice. I have Faith in them. They are smart and they know what they are doing. Right?

My Religion changes all the time. One day I am a practicing Taoist.
The next day I hang out with protestants and sing, 'Let's go down to the river to pray' or 'These three things I pray'. We sing while we work.
The next day I visit an old Catholic nun. We gossip about God. I know that it is silly. We were both taught not to gossip. It, just, seems that God is fair game.
The next day I visit a widow. We talk about, 'Where is Robin?" If, there is a Heaven, then, that is where Robin is. Wherever Robin went, that is where we will go. Death is a big deal for humans. I know. I am one.

How can people have such a lack of imagination? To think that all things sacred are held inside one book, or, inside one building. Well, that is just silly.

I do not think about the BIG THREE very much. What is to think about?
What is the Religion of the day inside the United States? Money?
That is something. People that worship money can show you their God.
Every other Religion, with the exception of Science, is woefully lacking in evidence.
The American dollar may be flimsy, but, it is real.
The American dollar has the power of a God. How does it not?

You may be one of the fortunate ones. The American dollar may not have power over you.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

lalop
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 5:29 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby lalop » Mon May 23, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Like I've been trying to say, this applies no matter the belief system... I would not shun any person unless they were fundamentally untrue to their beliefs (for example, claiming to base their beliefs solely on empirical science and rational logic, but being tremendously lazy, intellectually), or if they refused to discuss the matter at all.


You appear to be discriminating against inconsistent belief systems (or, should I clarify, belief systems that you find inconsistent). If the person holding the belief does not see any inconsistency in his actions, then why does your previous standard not apply to them just as thoroughly?

To put this into context, there are a fair number of possible contradictions in any holy texts (or similar contexts; e.g. between Qur'anic verses that say there is "no compulsion in religion" and hadith that are used to justify the death penalty for apostasy) and anyone can apply your discriminatory caveat in order to "shun" the vast majority of religious believers for accepting them. So what will it be: a relegation of your previous standard into uselessness, or the respect of inconsistent beliefs?

User avatar
Idhan
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:33 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Idhan » Mon May 23, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

A particularly mean interpretation of the whole no-show rapture.

The rapture happened. Right on schedule. It's just that no one was eligible. Not a single person on Earth.

No one was good enough. That is, perhaps, not a surprise to Christians. However, not only was no one good enough. No one was even forgiven. God filed through seven billion souls, and could not find one that met His standards (for either righteousness or forgiveness).

Okay. I don't actually believe that (either theologically in believing in God, or psychologically in believing that people are all that terrible), but it could be a premise for a short story or something.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue May 24, 2011 1:03 am UTC

Idhan wrote:A particularly mean interpretation of the whole no-show rapture.

The rapture happened. Right on schedule. It's just that no one was eligible. Not a single person on Earth.

No one was good enough. That is, perhaps, not a surprise to Christians. However, not only was no one good enough. No one was even forgiven. God filed through seven billion souls, and could not find one that met His standards (for either righteousness or forgiveness).

Okay. I don't actually believe that (either theologically in believing in God, or psychologically in believing that people are all that terrible), but it could be a premise for a short story or something.


I've seen that one before, actually. I can't remember the name of the site, but it's some kind of thing about short stories, and sometimes they are random and sometimes they follow a story. The story in question was about an angel who was blinded and deaf, and the corrupt government had killed all of the good people in the world so that the angel could not complete the rapture.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

scarletmanuka
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:29 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby scarletmanuka » Tue May 24, 2011 6:44 am UTC

niky wrote:Whenever I hear the phrase: "May the Force be with you" in a movie house, I have to stifle the urge to shout out: "And also with you... AMEN!"

Win.

User avatar
Fixblor
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:20 am UTC
Location: Pencilvania

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Fixblor » Tue May 24, 2011 8:50 am UTC

Tastes like vomit in the back of the throat. Could be acid reflux from all the crap being fed here.

Whatever the interpretation of the end of time, to whatever extent that is, it's all clairvoyance. Just like applied science.
Did you know that whenever they say, "the margin of error is plus or minus some percent," that they can make up whatever percent they like?

Well sort of, but its a very simple principle. You take some data, and crunch it, and then you say "OK well these special numbers I can keep so that means only 12% of the numbers are within 4% around the answer I previously announced to the world, so I'll just leave out the fact that my 100 sample study only yielded 12 decent results and say that the answer I predicted was within 2% of the actual result. Flippin A, I'm a witch."
Last edited by Count Modulus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:5l am UTC, edited 13 times in total.
06:23, 18 April 2011 SmackBot (talk | contribs) m (90,899 bytes) (Dated {{Dubious}} x 153. (Build p609)) (undo)

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Vaskafdt » Tue May 24, 2011 12:38 pm UTC

collegestudent22, from your words. i assume you have never been part of a religious minority, the way you feel when everyone around you go on and on, about ideals and morals.. that in your soul you know to be wrong. when the only way to have human contact.. is to listen to people (many of whom you respect and love) give statements, that makes you want to cry.. and act as if you are ok with them saying them...

I hope you will never have to go through that.


I'm done with this offtopic.. sorry for the derail. if anyone wish to continue discussing this matter.. let's move it to serious business.
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

Hafting
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:23 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Hafting » Tue May 24, 2011 1:16 pm UTC

[quote="vastbluesky"]If the error bar were greater would that indicate the possibility of negative gods?

Negative numbers is not sufficient for enumerating gods. But try their square roots. . .

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby addams » Wed May 25, 2011 1:28 am UTC

scarletmanuka wrote:
niky wrote:Whenever I hear the phrase: "May the Force be with you" in a movie house, I have to stifle the urge to shout out: "And also with you... AMEN!"

Win.

Nice. Don't stifle such a wonderful urge. You do not need to shout. Just, say it. I have started doing that sort of thing. We need so much more Peace than we have.

Postby Hafting » Tue May 24, 2011 5:16 am UTC
[quote="vastbluesky"]If the error bar were greater would that indicate the possibility of negative gods?

Negative numbers is not sufficient for enumerating gods. But try their square roots. . .

That is funny. Square root of a negative God. I am having a hard time with the concept. I am not ready to give up yet. Is that like the guy with the dumb look on his face and the bottom of his front butt uncovered below his tee shirt? That is a negative God? What would its square root be like? Eww. Smaller? And, Creepier? eww. Made me think.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
xX17GHDUDE17Xx
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:44 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby xX17GHDUDE17Xx » Wed May 25, 2011 2:51 am UTC

Negative numbers is not sufficient for enumerating gods. But try their square roots. . .

That is funny. Square root of a negative God. I am having a hard time with the concept. I am not ready to give up yet. Is that like the guy with the dumb look on his face and the bottom of his front butt uncovered below his tee shirt? That is a negative God? What would its square root be like? Eww. Smaller? And, Creepier? eww. Made me think.


I think he was going more for the imaginary aspect... Unless you were being sarcastic, in which case, I apologize for missing the joke completely.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" -Ghandi

Wrong. All that does is eliminate humanity's depth perception.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby addams » Wed May 25, 2011 3:42 am UTC

xX17GHDUDE17Xx wrote:Negative numbers is not sufficient for enumerating gods. But try their square roots. . .

That is funny. Square root of a negative God. I am having a hard time with the concept. I am not ready to give up yet. Is that like the guy with the dumb look on his face and the bottom of his front butt uncovered below his tee shirt? That is a negative God? What would its square root be like? Eww. Smaller? And, Creepier? eww. Made me think.


I think he was going more for the imaginary aspect... Unless you were being sarcastic, in which case, I apologize for missing the joke completely.

Sarcastic? I missed the joke, too.
Gods are imaginary. Negative square roots are imaginary.
I was trying to imagine it.
Good Gods on the + side of the scale.
Bad Gods on the - side of the scale.

The ones would be kind of unextraordanary.
The 10s might be interestingly different.
Apollo is an + twenty.
Gollium is a - twenty.
See?
I saw an old Hindu bass relief sculpture. It had Gods playing tug of war with a rope.
The Good Guys were winning; Of course.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

tsadi
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:40 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby tsadi » Thu May 26, 2011 6:41 am UTC

Permission to re-post this in my blog/FB sir.

addams wrote:
Brooks Hatlen wrote:I've never understood how people can combine religions when each religion clearly states that they are the only one. That being said, it would be awesome if the whole world would decide on some Islamic Judeo-Christian faith so we can focus on more important things.

Hi; I may be able to shed some light on how people can combine religions. I do that. I,totally, do not stick to Judeo-Christian stuff.
I do not know how others do it. The way I do it is:
I find the good things that are common to all Religions that I know about and accept those things right away.
I consider the goofy stuff. If, it is fun, or, it enhances my human experience, then, I accept it.
I reserve the right to stop, or, change the goofy stuff to suit my needs, or, whims.
The boiled down, scraped off the bottom of the beaker stuff are constants.
I seem to have found two things there.
1. Love. Very pleasurable; depending on what kind of a mood Cupid was in at the time.
2. Kindness. The next size down from Love. It works when in contact with unlovable types.
Please; Judeo-Christian stuff is only one way of many.
I really like some of those people. Some I don't like at all.
If, the whole world was to adopt one Religion, then, I think that Zen Buddhism is a better choice.

I would miss the sacred days of the Pagans and the sacred night of the Catholics and the cavalcade of Hindu Gods.
When done right it is a joyful messy human experience. Kind of like sex for the soul.

I very much agree with you. We have more important and fun things to do than listen to someone tell us that we must see the world through the lens of one very restrictive Religion.
Love and Kindness. It sounds boring, but, it can be fun.

Dancing in circles with American natives is fun. Attending a blessing of the bicycles by a Priest in a collar is fun. Talking about Hindu Gods with a Hindu people is fun. It is fun to have a big Ganesh. It is fun to go outside on the Equinox and Solstice. It is fun to remember my ancestors, like, the Japanese do. It is simply fun. No more and no less than dress up for the mind. Looking at the world using different lenses.

I have zero interest in Religions that do not allow for a fearless search for truth and meaning.
Science is both the how and the why to me.
For many other people Science is the how; Religion is the why.

Religion can bring out the best in people. If, we were without any Religion, then, we might have even more bullies. Good people do not need Religion, unless something bad happens.
Religion does have a calming effect on many bad people.

I like Religion I just do not like being told that mine is insufficient.
Mine is expansive and flexible. It is sufficient. It gets more sufficient all the time.

collegestudent22
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:36 am UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby collegestudent22 » Fri May 27, 2011 1:54 pm UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:collegestudent22, from your words. i assume you have never been part of a religious minority, the way you feel when everyone around you go on and on, about ideals and morals.. that in your soul you know to be wrong. when the only way to have human contact.. is to listen to people (many of whom you respect and love) give statements, that makes you want to cry.. and act as if you are ok with them saying them...

I hope you will never have to go through that.


Have gone through that. Dealt with it. Given my understanding of liberty, it wasn't all that hard to ignore them. "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it" and all that. Talk is cheap, and unless action is taken that violates another persons rights, I fail to see an issue.

User avatar
Plasma Mongoose
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:09 am UTC
Contact:

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Plasma Mongoose » Sun May 29, 2011 6:46 am UTC

Here is a question for all of you: While we know that something like the actual Second Coming of Christ would kinda prove once and for all that Christianity was the real deal after all, what sort of absolute proof would be needed to be able to say to all the Christains that their religion is false?
A virus walks into a bar, the bartender says "We don't serve viruses in here".
The virus replaces the bartender and says "Now we do!"

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby addams » Sun May 29, 2011 2:38 pm UTC

Plasma Mongoose wrote:Here is a question for all of you: While we know that something like the actual Second Coming of Christ would kinda prove once and for all that Christianity was the real deal after all, what sort of absolute proof would be needed to be able to say to all the Christains that their religion is false?

Dear Plasma Mongoose;
Why would you want to do such a thing? I know it is not nice to answer a question with a question.
Plasma; A persons Religion is sometimes more than a Luxury. There are times when a person Religion is that person's last hope. Why would you take that away?

We are the very bright typing into an open Forum.
I will answer your question. It is fairly easy to answer.
It is possible to break a person. Any person. It is possible to drive any one human being to despair. What can be done with one human being can be done with a group.

You might not get each and every individual with one message, but, enough that the entire culture will collapse. A second message, if, it were psychologically powerful enough would get the rest.

Why would you want to do such a thing? To do this to a group, you must do this to the individuals within the group. Groups are made up of individuals.

I have no idea who you are. If, you are human it is possible to not only force you to question the love of those you love, but, to force you into despair.

You think that your mother loves you? She might. She might not. I know that if I could talk to you, spend a little time with you, control your physical environment; Then I could make you question your own mother's love. That would not be nice. Think about it Plasma. Think about it for a while.

Besides; The Christian Religion is not False. Not all Christians are Assholes. It is not false. Not all of it. Have you never met a good Christian?

The good ones are, kind of, quiet; Except when they are not.
The good ones do not worship a false God.

I know one. I know one really good Christian. I would do absolutely nothing to shake her Faith. I would be so mad at you, if, you did.

There are very bad people that have labeled themselves Christian. ?SO?!?

Are you a Scientist?!

Just, because, it has a label that says that it is water, do you believe that it is water? It might look like water from a distance. The label says water.

Get a little closer. Does water cling to glass that way? I might have to touch the beaker. As soon as I see that shit cling to glass I am thinking, "Hey; That might not be water."

Do you hate all Christians because of their label? Jeeze. Yes. Each and every one of us can be broken. We are human. In the twenty first century modern humans have the breaking of both individual human beings and groups of humans down to a science.

What do you really want to know? We can design a systematic program to break good people.

I am interested to know what can be done about people that worship the American dollar bill above all else. As long as we are talking Religion.

There is a man that was on a video clip that was sent to me. His name is Bill O'Riely. He is like the pope. That is what I was led to believe. He has an invisible man, named, Murdock, that helps Bill O'Riely decide what to say and how to have the Passion of his Religion. He is a televangelist.

This is, just, what I read. You seem to have great passion to shake a person's Faith. How about Bill O'Riely and his boss Murdock?

Why do you want to attack Christians? Murdock, O'Riely and the Four Square Church are a religion that touches everyone that touches a dollar bill. No one escapes their Religion and their power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Squar ... h_doctrine

You know how wikipedia is. It might take some digging to find the real roots on that one. It is a Church that is based on Money and advertising. It is so funny. There are some good people that really believe. Their are many that will give their last dollar to the church because they believe.

It bothers me some that the dollar is God. It is not God for all. For those who have Faith in the Dollar God; Many have their Faith reaffirmed every day.

To be fair, Plasma, I like the American Dollar bill. Have you ever looked at one?

On the Left hand side of the back of the bill is a drawing. What do you think that is? It is an image of an idea that is part of the foundation of a Religion that I like.

On the Right hand side of the back of the bill is an other drawing. What do you think that is? It looks like sacred military imagery to me. What does it look like to you?

Who's Religion is false? Plasma.

Tell us what you believe in and we will attack it. That will be fun. As long as we both have electricity. When the power goes out, then, I hope your mom likes you and you can get to her. So there.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby KrytenKoro » Sun May 29, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

Plasma Mongoose wrote:Here is a question for all of you: While we know that something like the actual Second Coming of Christ would kinda prove once and for all that Christianity was the real deal after all, what sort of absolute proof would be needed to be able to say to all the Christains that their religion is false?

I'm trying to remember what it was, but there definitely is one.


Ummm...I think it had something to do with proving without a doubt that the universe had no beginning in time. Or something similar. Anyway, something like that would definitively contradict Scripture and creed on a fundamental level.

Anything more fundamental would require the supernatural to be used in the disproof, so they wouldn't be useful to you.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Plasma Mongoose
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:09 am UTC
Contact:

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby Plasma Mongoose » Sun May 29, 2011 10:59 pm UTC

addams wrote: Why would you want to do such a thing? I know it is not nice to answer a question with a question.
Plasma; A persons Religion is sometimes more than a Luxury. There are times when a person Religion is that person's last hope. Why would you take that away?


I would have been surprised if anyone could come up with an answer that could be used on more than a few doubting individuals.

Making the assumption for a moment that Christainity is truly false, I rephrase the question; At what point (In time or event(s)) would we, as a people be safely conclude that Christianity is just another false religion like worshiping a Greek God?

As for religion been important for people due to either it been the Truth or just something to believe in, it just shows to prove how strange humanity really is.
A virus walks into a bar, the bartender says "We don't serve viruses in here".
The virus replaces the bartender and says "Now we do!"

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby addams » Mon May 30, 2011 3:35 pm UTC

Plasma Mongoose wrote:
addams wrote: Why would you want to do such a thing? I know it is not nice to answer a question with a question.
Plasma; A persons Religion is sometimes more than a Luxury. There are times when a person Religion is that person's last hope. Why would you take that away?


I would have been surprised if anyone could come up with an answer that could be used on more than a few doubting individuals.

Making the assumption for a moment that Christainity is truly false, I rephrase the question; At what point (In time or event(s)) would we, as a people be safely conclude that Christianity is just another false religion like worshiping a Greek God?

As for religion been important for people due to either it been the Truth or just something to believe in, it just shows to prove how strange humanity really is.


Yes. Humanity is strange. I am human; Therefore, I too am strange.
If, you are human, then, you are, also, strange.

This is the way discussions of Human psychology begin.

The landscape between the human ears is vast.
Each set of ears has a different landscape.
Some of the landscape between one set of ears overlaps with the landscape between a different set of ears.
Call it minds. Our minds know some things the same and many others differently.
Psychology. Religion. So close. Might be the same thing.

Greek Gods? What is wrong with Greek Gods?
The Greek Gods are wonderful Psychological Archetypes.

Who is more real? Dr. Carl Sagan or Apollo or Hermes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan

Dr. Sagan was not a martyr. There are many martyrs in science and in art. He was not one. He was a man that became a God.

They are equals. Right?
We can think about the things that Dr. Sagan thought about. He left a body of work.
Not everyone is interested in his work.

What about Wisdom?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

It seems that the common man rejects symbols of ethics and morality. The uncommon men and woman do not. The extraordinary stand on the shoulders of the ones that went before.

To dismiss the Gods of others is unwise. Why would you do that?

Who wants to control others with ideas? I don't. Of course, it is nice to have a common language. A long time ago when Dr. Sagan walked the Earth like a mortal man, the world was a better place.
Can one person make a difference? He did. He made a difference to me.

There are others. Men and women that are God like. They are God like as they live their lives as simple men and women. They are more God like after death.

They can not make mistakes after they are dead. We can make fun of any of the Greek Gods. We can make up new stories. We can do that about real people, too.

What is your point? What do you have between your ears?

I hear that there are people that can not stand to have people make fun of their God. It seems to be a common rumor. No drawing pictures of him. No making fun him. Nothing. Those people killed their prophet after he died. That is my best guess.

It is O.K. to make fun of Dr. Sagan. He was a funny guy. He was a prophet. He brought us strange news. He had friends that knew what he knew. He was not alone in a strange world of multi dimensions, stars and strange equations that make good wall art.
(I have a lovely piece of wall art that is mostly Math. I can't read it. I still like it.)

I know that Dr. Sagan is not a good God for everyone. I know that I need a few others.
One God. Some people limp along with only one God. Poor them.

They have one God and one God only and you want to take that away from them? Jeeze.
Go the other way. Explain that my Gods are just as real as their God is. Maybe, more.

See? That would work. Here. You take a dozen or so of my Gods to think about this week and I will think about your God for a few minutes. What kind of a God do you have?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

lalop
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 5:29 pm UTC

Re: 0900: "Religions"

Postby lalop » Tue May 31, 2011 9:47 am UTC

Plasma Mongoose wrote:Here is a question for all of you: While we know that something like the actual Second Coming of Christ would kinda prove once and for all that Christianity was the real deal after all, what sort of absolute proof would be needed to be able to say to all the Christains that their religion is false?


I honestly doubt there's any piece of evidence that can't be rationalized, even evidence that the universe was not created or a window to Jesus' time showing he didn't do anything.


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AluisioASG, ObsessoMom, orthogon and 111 guests