0972: "November"

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Saerain
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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Saerain » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:38 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:But I would be extremely surprised if any part of your conscious mind is actually thinking about every waking breath you take, or every blink, or where your tongue is constantly throughout a normal conversation.

I don't know, what constitutes ‘thinking about’ it? There's not much thinking to be done about those things, and they're very peripheral in my awareness, but I can't think of any definition by which I'm not typically conscious/aware of them or by which I might feel they're at any time automatic.

Shivering in cold temperatures is something else I'd compare them to. Doesn't require a lot of attention on my part, as a reflex, but I definitely don't experience it as something ‘automatic’ or under the control of something that isn't me; rather a peripheral, instinctive action with peripheral, instinctive cues.

gmalivuk wrote:I mean, yes, you're conscious of speaking, but under normal circumstances you're probably not really conscious of where that requires you to put your mouthparts.

Shouldn't I feel it? Those parts are pretty sensitive.

Ah, well. I don't understand any of the examples presented in this thread (the pressure your fingernails put on your fingertips? Really?), so I'm just going to assume I'm an alien doppelganger with more connections between the forebrain and the brainstem/hypothalamus. It's the most reasonable conclusion.

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:09 am UTC

Either that, or you're just not very good at remembering whether you were paying attention to a thing at a random time in the past (because in this moment, of course we're all thinking about those things, since we're discussing whether we think about those things).
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Saerain
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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Saerain » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:21 am UTC

I was going to say, ‘Right, you can't pay attention to not paying attention,’ but I would be saying that in ignorance of one of my points, being that you needn't pay attention to something to be aware of it.

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:10 am UTC

I'm truly baffled at how somebody could not understand the difference between automatic breathing and manual breathing (or blinking, etc.). It seems like something every living human should relate to.

Also, it isn't even necessarily true that breathing is always on the "periphery" of your consciousness or whatever. Consider that people in particularly stressful or suspenseful situations sometimes stop breathing for a while without even realizing it.

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:21 am UTC

Saerain wrote:you needn't pay attention to something to be aware of it.
True, but if you're thinking about whether you're aware of something, you'll start paying attention to it.

In any case, I'm more willing to trust neuroscience than your personal anecdotes, and chalk it up to your being bad at this particular kind of introspection. No worries, though: most of us are just as bad at it. That's how our brains work.
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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Saerain » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:35 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I'm truly baffled at how somebody could not understand the difference between automatic breathing and manual breathing (or blinking, etc.). It seems like something every living human should relate to.

I understand the difference between breathing deliberately and non-deliberately, but I'm not familiar with the experience of ‘automatic’ breathing, if it is something I do while awake. I assume it's a reference to non-deliberate breathing, but I think the difference between that and something like your heart or intestines is important.

And assuming it is a reference to breathing non-deliberately, I don't understand how it would be a problem to have your attention drawn to it or anything like it. People are acting like it's ‘creepy’ or something. Speaking of things that are baffling.

Eebster the Great wrote:Also, it isn't even necessarily true that breathing is always on the "periphery" of your consciousness or whatever. Consider that people in particularly stressful or suspenseful situations sometimes stop breathing for a while without even realizing it.

See, I'm not saying that I'm counting my breaths or blinks like sheep jumping over a fence. It's not something I keep track of or otherwise pay attention to. But it's obvious when it happens, as it's something I have nerves to sense and to control. Unlike many other bodily functions.

gmalivuk wrote:In any case, I'm more willing to trust neuroscience than your personal anecdotes

Of course, although I'm not aware of neuroscientific evidence that people aren't aware when their tongues, lungs, or eyelids do something while they're awake. I was pretty sure you were all talking anecdote.

If anything, I might say neuroscience suggests that breathing is just as premeditated as choosing a flavor of iced cream. :lol:

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:22 am UTC

Saerain wrote:I understand the difference between breathing deliberately and non-deliberately, but I'm not familiar with the experience of ‘automatic’ breathing, if it is something I do while awake. I assume it's a reference to non-deliberate breathing, but I think the difference between that and something like your heart or intestines is important.

Well obviously you breathe with skeletal muscles (like the diaphragm), so of course it will be different from smooth muscles like those lining your GI tract, but that doesn't mean it isn't an automatic process. If you aren't doing something deliberately, then yeah I would consider it automatic.

And assuming it is a reference to breathing non-deliberately, I don't understand how it would be a problem to have your attention drawn to it or anything like it. People are acting like it's ‘creepy’ or something. Speaking of things that are baffling.

It isn't creepy, just annoying. Evidently it doesn't annoy you, but it does annoy lots of people.

See, I'm not saying that I'm counting my breaths or blinks like sheep jumping over a fence. It's not something I keep track of or otherwise pay attention to. But it's obvious when it happens, as it's something I have nerves to sense and to control. Unlike many other bodily functions.

Nobody ever suggested otherwise. If it gets tot he point where you can't tell if you're breathing even when you try to, then obviously that's a huge problem. The point is rather that you can breathe and blink automatically to a degree beyond that of nearly any other similar function. Even walking requires more attention (it is a learned behavior after all).

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby blowfishhootie » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:11 am UTC

Saerain wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:I'm truly baffled at how somebody could not understand the difference between automatic breathing and manual breathing (or blinking, etc.). It seems like something every living human should relate to.

I understand the difference between breathing deliberately and non-deliberately, but I'm not familiar with the experience of ‘automatic’ breathing, if it is something I do while awake. I assume it's a reference to non-deliberate breathing, but I think the difference between that and something like your heart or intestines is important.

And assuming it is a reference to breathing non-deliberately, I don't understand how it would be a problem to have your attention drawn to it or anything like it. People are acting like it's ‘creepy’ or something. Speaking of things that are baffling.

Eebster the Great wrote:Also, it isn't even necessarily true that breathing is always on the "periphery" of your consciousness or whatever. Consider that people in particularly stressful or suspenseful situations sometimes stop breathing for a while without even realizing it.

See, I'm not saying that I'm counting my breaths or blinks like sheep jumping over a fence. It's not something I keep track of or otherwise pay attention to. But it's obvious when it happens, as it's something I have nerves to sense and to control. Unlike many other bodily functions.

gmalivuk wrote:In any case, I'm more willing to trust neuroscience than your personal anecdotes

Of course, although I'm not aware of neuroscientific evidence that people aren't aware when their tongues, lungs, or eyelids do something while they're awake. I was pretty sure you were all talking anecdote.

If anything, I might say neuroscience suggests that breathing is just as premeditated as choosing a flavor of iced cream. :lol:


In an Internet forum full of stupid, pointless, needlessly argumentative, semantic bullshit, this is some of the stupidest, most pointless, most needlessly argumentative semantic bullshit I've seen to date.

I think a good rule of thumb is, if after five posts on a given subject (the number of times you've posted in this thread), you still find yourself having to clarify, "I'm not saying that..." then you probably either have no point, or are terrible at articulating it. Either way, there's not much point in continuing. Seriously, what the fuck are you even arguing? It's impossible to consciously think about every breath you take in a day - you would have no time to ever think about anything else. It's not some abstract, hard-to-grasp fact. You are being needlessly and intentionally dense (well, I assume it's intentional; it's possible I'm giving you too much credit, I suppose).

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Jorpho » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:58 am UTC

blowfishhootie wrote:It's impossible to consciously think about every breath you take in a day
Actually, there's something called Ondine's curse which I was waiting for someone to bring up – but clearly that's an exceptional case.

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby scarletmanuka » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:41 am UTC

In the spirit of Tongue Awareness Month, I'm posting this.

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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Angua » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:27 pm UTC

If you're not getting the breathing thing, how about awareness of the clothes on your body?
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Re: 0972: "November"

Postby Envelope Generator » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:35 pm UTC

It's that time of the year again! Have you been aware of your tongue lately?
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