0991: "Phantom Menace"

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Various Varieties
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Various Varieties » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:35 pm UTC

Quicksilver wrote:I haven't seen it since I was 14, but I don't recall it being that bad. Granted, Jar Jar Binks has been forgotten completely, but the only concession I ever give Star Wars fans is that Clone Wars sucked.

Which Clone Wars? The Genndy Tartakovsky one (an excuse for lots of spectacularly-animated action sequences that were even more over the top than those of the prequels - insubstantial and with hit-or-miss character designs, but overall much more fun than the prequels), or the CGI one (I never saw the movie due to its dire reviews, but I hear the TV series was an improvement).

buddy431 wrote:So was The Phantom Menace originally filmed in 3D (and they're just getting around to releasing it now), or is this one of those "go back and add in fake 3D stuff" type of things?

Post-converted to 3D.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Sprocket » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:26 pm UTC

I think this may be the worst XKCD ever.

JetstreamGW wrote:
Kithplana wrote:I was briefly horrified when I thought it had been ten years since the release of Phantom Menace. I would just feel old if it had been ten years.

It... is not the tenth year since the release. As long as I don't do the math I'll be fine.


You're absolutely right. It hasn't been ten years since the release. Not at all, in fact. You're pretty far off.


...

It's been TWELVE, SON! Don't live in the denial! Let the hate flow through you!

Went to see it after my senior prom in 1999.
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Nationless » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:56 pm UTC

The joke.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Nationless » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:56 pm UTC

My head.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby boriquajake » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:18 pm UTC

Sigh, Star Wars blows, and this comic sucked too. Dammit, it is embarrassing how much I look forward to the new comics every MWF and rarely am I disappointed. Oh well, nobody bats a thousand.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Alan » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:28 pm UTC

Boba Fett was popular because:

1) He was in the cartoon short that was aired during the Star Wars Christmas Special (which I watched live on air and was quite disappointed in even as a five or six year old).
2) When he shows up in ESB, he talks back to Vader and Vader acquiesces.

Anyone who can talk back to Vader and get what he wants is a total and complete bad ass.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:55 pm UTC

Check out Darths & Droids: http://www.darthsanddroids.net/archive.html

You're welcome.


As for the comic, the correct strategy is to split up - one remain there while the other scouts, either using mobile phones to remain in contact, or having an agreed schedule, whereby the scout is expected to check in by certain times unless they find another queue, in which case they hold a place. If the scout misses an agreed number of consecutive check-ins, the guy waiting abandons the queue and retraces the scout's agreed route since his last check-in. You can further adapt the strategy to allow for potential increases in value of the original queue spot (the guy waiting sits tight and the scout comes back once it's clear his buddy isn't coming for him - unless the new queue is sufficiently good - you can alternate prearranged periods in which one guy is waiting to see if the other is coming for him until an arbitrary deadline - or until the movie tickets go on sale)

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Catmando » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:02 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:
Catmando wrote:I don't know what's wrong with you guys—or Randall, for that matter. TPM was my favorite movie of the whole series. :(


The whole 6 movie series?

I can see that TPM isn't bad, there are good scenes, and good elements in the story, but it failed to capture the tone of the original trilogy, and that's why people resent it. It's also got too much politics and not enough likeable characters.


Yeah, out of all of the movies. I have a certain bias, though. I care a lot about the setting of the story, and I loved the planet Naboo. Like, everything about it. The plot of the movie itself is all right, but Naboo is cool! The architecture of the city, the water-filled planet, etc. I also never really had a connection to ANY of the characters of the series, so it seemed natural to just sit back and watch the movie and enjoy the cool effects and stuff. I suppose I'm kind of treating the series like mindless action flicks.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Wnderer » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:00 pm UTC

To me this comic is like xkcd does Foxtrot.

The Star Wars prequel I want to see is a young Han Solo, Lando Calrissian and Chewbacca being involved in crime with Greedo and Jabba the Hut. Sort of Butch Cassidy, The Sundance Kid and a Wookie.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:34 pm UTC

I Liked this comic as much as I liked the movie.
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby agelessdrifter » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:37 pm UTC

Before the prequels came out there were a lot of really well-written books based around the original three movies. There were dozens of authors writing them all, but they were all really coherent and consistent with one-another and with the films as far as the back-stories given to the characters, and the time-lines of things that were supposed to have occurred concurrently with the plot of the original three movies. Boba Fett was in a few of them, and he really was a bad-ass. But he wasn't a fucking clone, and he wasn't a mandelorian -- he *killed* a mandelorian to get that armor, which was part of what made him a badass (also, he didn't personally catch Han Solo, but he was the reason Vader was able to catch him). I really hate what they did to Boba Fett in the new films. All those novels had to be approved by Lucas -- if he had really already written all six films he shouldn't have approved the books he was going to have to retcon later on (but I don't think anyone really believes that's true, anyway).

I can sort of understand how someone who was a real little kid when Ep 1-3 came out, and hadn't really been too familiar with SW prior to that wouldn't hate the new movies, but they really are just bad movies, even ignoring the damage they did to a series that was pretty much above reproach before they were made.

Anyway I think this comic was alright, knowing now what it's about, I just didn't get it because I'm not up on Star Wars news of the day. I agree with whoever said it would've been better in January.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Joe Nobody » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:51 pm UTC

Alan wrote:2) When he shows up in ESB, he talks back to Vader and Vader acquiesces.

Anyone who can talk back to Vader and get what he wants is a total and complete bad ass.


This times 1000. And it's impact is even greater with Vader spends the movie force-choking his subordinates to death for failing him and repeatedly puts the verbal smack-down on Lando ("perhaps you believe you are being treated...unfairly?" and "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further" come to mind).

Yet Boba Fett talked back to Vader not once but twice and both times is treated as an equal. It's a bit like the TV trope the Worf effect, where if a new character can instantly display how tough he is by defeating an established bad-ass. It's Vader's treatment of Fett that the audience responds to, even though Fett does very little in the films.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby madaco » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:49 am UTC

Invertin wrote:
Think about the entire movie. The Jedi are on the ship, they're going to have a talk, talk doesn't happen, kill droids, go to planet, find underwater city, borrow submarine, travel through planet, get to royal palace, escape with queen, land on tatooine, find slave boy, podracing, go to republic, republic are assholes, go back to original planet, set up trap, fight droids, hunt down droid leader guy, slave boy accidentally steals a ship, darth maul shows up.

That sounds a lot like the plot of Darths and droids...
are you sure your not mixing them up?
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:37 am UTC

No, Darth and Droids made Jar-Jar likable. It was R2 that was a pain in the ass.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Sprocket » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:52 am UTC

OOOH OOH! I know what this is! This is the terrible pre-quel to a MUCH BETTER COMIC! Now we just have to go back and figure out WHICH comic!
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby cronic5 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:28 am UTC

Star Wars sucks. Every single movie was incredibly boring, and offered absolutely no entertainment whatsoever.

I have watched fanatics go on about this series for so many years. Arguing, getting mad, then I but in with "Star Wars sucks" and they look look at the other, realize I am right and give up on any hopes of having a decent conversation.

Face it, nothing interesting happened in ANY of them. The weapons, lame. The characters, lame. Planets, computers, robots, all of it was absolutely terrible.

Go watch a decent movie. Even the abomination Pirates of the Caribbean was better than Star Wars, at least that series had some comedy in it. The only movie series worse than Star Wars, was Lord of the Rings.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Quicksilver » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:25 am UTC

Various Varieties wrote:
Quicksilver wrote:I haven't seen it since I was 14, but I don't recall it being that bad. Granted, Jar Jar Binks has been forgotten completely, but the only concession I ever give Star Wars fans is that Clone Wars sucked.

Which Clone Wars? The Genndy Tartakovsky one (an excuse for lots of spectacularly-animated action sequences that were even more over the top than those of the prequels - insubstantial and with hit-or-miss character designs, but overall much more fun than the prequels), or the CGI one (I never saw the movie due to its dire reviews, but I hear the TV series was an improvement).
The second film. You know you've got problems when Christopher Lee and a Yoda battle can't save the film.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby HighFidelity » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:07 am UTC

Maybe the comic was released now, because the early access for Star Wars: The Old Republic started and the game starts on the 20th.

So it's at least sort of a Star Wars related date.

On a different note: While being obviously worse than the original trilogy I still think it's better than the two movies that came after it.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby AvatarIII » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:49 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Check out Darths & Droids: http://www.darthsanddroids.net/archive.html

thanks by the way, I started reading this and it's awesome.
rmsgrey wrote:You're welcome.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Klear » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:56 pm UTC

Wnderer wrote:The Star Wars prequel I want to see is a young Han Solo, Lando Calrissian and Chewbacca being involved in crime with Greedo and Jabba the Hut. Sort of Butch Cassidy, The Sundance Kid and a Wookie.


Oh god yes! Also, Lucas is not involved in any way.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby davidstvz » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:08 pm UTC

Darth Maul looks like V

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby tyboy » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:53 pm UTC

I remember reading that the Captain America director was going to film in 3D, but then decided the cameras were too big or hard to use or something so decided it would just be easier to let them change it in post-production. I thought that was so lame. I didn't bother seeing it in the theaters so I can't say how big a difference it made. When it comes to the new star wars I don't expect it to be a very big deal at all. I'm sure they still have all the original CGI renderings. Anything they drew with the computer is almost definitely already available in true 3D. That's most the movie and certainly the vast majority of any scene that will benefit a lot from 3D.

I'll grant that I haven't studied it at all, just seen the movies once or twice, but when I watched the new star wars movies my sense wasn't that boba fett was a clone, but rather was the template the clone army was cloned from. I suppose biologically that's a trivial difference, but in terms of movie badassness it's quite a lot cooler.

One thing I really appreciated from the prequels was that overall they really turned the whole series into a complete epic tale. Nearly everyone will enjoy a story of straight good vs. evil like the original three where you take a situation that is clearly bad and make it clearly better and the most nuanced character in the whole thing is a halfway anti-hero. Some people seem to get really uncomfortable with a story where you take a generally good situation and turn it into a bad one with some greed plus a bit of human weakness and apathy. It feels preachy or something. That's half the story though. The 3 original movies then 3 prequels format allows it to end on what really felt like the defining moment of the whole series too; when Anakin lets the Emperor kill Samuel L Jackson for the promise of saving the princess. That's some quality nuance. Thinking of the whole thing as "The Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker" makes it a pretty good story, even if it doesn't follow him around all the time. Granted, it shouldn't take 12 hours (or whatever all the movies together adds up to) to tell that story, but the filler is generally pretty action packed, funny or visually impressive.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby SirMustapha » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:21 pm UTC

cronic5 wrote:Go watch a decent movie. Even the abomination Pirates of the Caribbean was better than Star Wars, at least that series had some comedy in it. The only movie series worse than Star Wars, was Lord of the Rings.


Comparing Star Wars negatively to Pirates of the Caribbean is cruel, very cruel. But the comparison with Lord of the Rings smells deliberately inflammatory, like the kind of stuff not even I would dare.

I think the popularity of Star Wars has to do, maybe, with its "nerdy" appeal and the fact that nerds needed something to identify with, something to be fond of, perhaps. The people who have a more neutral and deep look at cinema usually concede that Star Wars may be fun, but it's basically trash.

What I really hate is that Star Wars has become a "badge of geekiness", something that you must carry around in order to earn the "nerd" label. And it's sad that nerds need that label: the fun of being a nerd is exactly not giving a damn about labels and conventions, yet that has been turned upside down. But then again, the same thing happened with Punk and basically every other kind of counter-culture.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby AvatarIII » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:26 pm UTC

@tyboy

Captain America was a good movie in 2D anyway, it didn't need 3D, not was out filmed in a way that begged for a 3D treatment.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Various Varieties » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:29 am UTC

Quicksilver wrote:
Various Varieties wrote:
Quicksilver wrote:I haven't seen it since I was 14, but I don't recall it being that bad. Granted, Jar Jar Binks has been forgotten completely, but the only concession I ever give Star Wars fans is that Clone Wars sucked.

Which Clone Wars? The Genndy Tartakovsky one (an excuse for lots of spectacularly-animated action sequences that were even more over the top than those of the prequels - insubstantial and with hit-or-miss character designs, but overall much more fun than the prequels), or the CGI one (I never saw the movie due to its dire reviews, but I hear the TV series was an improvement).
The second film. You know you've got problems when Christopher Lee and a Yoda battle can't save the film.

Oh, the film Attack of the Clones - I thought you were referring to one of the two TV series called Clone Wars.

Upon my first viewing of each of the prequels, I enjoyed each one more than the last, because as they went on they had progressively less Jake Lloyd and Jar-Jar, and more Ian McDiarmid hamming things up and bringing some actual fun to the proceedings (Palpatine's Darth Plageus/immortality speech in Episode III was pretty much the only dialogue scene in any of the prequels that was at all memorable). It also helped that I quite enjoyed letting myself get swept along with the hype and spectacle. But I rewatched Episode III about a year ago, for the first time since I'd seen it in the cinema, and it really was a much worse film than I remembered. There's no need to discuss why; the Red Letter Media/Harry S Plinkett video reviews already provided the definitive explanation.

That Genndy Tartakovsky 2D animated Clone Wars cartoon I mentioned in my previous post was pretty much the best thing to result from the production of the prequels.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby dedwrekka » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:00 am UTC

Kinda want to clear something up about Bobba Fett. There's a reason, wholly within the narrative of the movies themselves, for why Fett is seen as a badass. It has to do with how people treat him, not what he does, which is very important as the original three movies are trying to get across a lot of points with as little exposition as possible (something the later three could learn from). So, while Bobba Fett is really only in the movies for a short while, pretty much every scene up to the last one is trying to get across the point that this guy is a badass. When you see him first he has to be directly told by Darth Vader not to disintegrate anyone, he's the only one of a group of bounty hunters to track the millenium falcon, and even in his last scene in the movies the mere mention of his name sends Solo into a blind panic which inevitably leads to Fett's death (screw the EU).

It's sort of like the millenium falcon really. Throughout the entire series all we see is it falling apart, and yet it's such an icon of the series that it's considered a character in itself. Why? Because everything Han Solo says about it.

What about Jaba? Guy's only action is to sit there and later die. Reason we know he's not to be triffled with? The way he commands the respect of even the hardest of hardasses in the series.

The Emperor? Except for that final scene the only thing we have to go off of is the fact that Vader calls him his master. Vader = badass, so we know Emperor = bigger badass.

There in lies the problem with the prequels. Characters are introduced, given backstories in too much detail, and promptly killed off and most of the time we have nothing to go off of as far as where they fit in. Darth Maul, and similarly all the other bid baddies from the prequels, will always just be too damn random for me. He shows up out of no-where, we have just about nothing to go off of, and his death has no meaning except to advance the plot just a smidge. Even after his death everyone's reaction in the movie was "Who the hell was that guy?".

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby alun009 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:29 am UTC

The truth is, all the Star Wars films are terrible. No seriously, they are awful.

When The Phantom Menace was greeted with confused pain by fans, it was no surprise to me. Childhood experiences become idealised. When faced with something from the same bracket, without nostalgia to back it up, you see plainly what others saw from the start. That the whole franchise (yes, franchise, think about that word for a minute) is shallow, fluffy and childish:

Star Wars on an intellectual par with Twighlight or Justin Bieber.

I'm usually of the opinion "live and let live": so I don't like the films and others do. So what?
I'm only going on about it because certain parts of our culture are saturated with SW-mania; I'm sick of hearing about it. It's just a frakking film! Get over your obsession, for your own sake and mine!

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby alun009 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:54 am UTC

Just been reading through other contributions to this thread:

Go watch a decent movie. Even the abomination Pirates of the Caribbean was better than Star Wars, at least that series had some comedy in it. The only movie series worse than Star Wars, was Lord of the Rings.


Pirates is far better that Star Wars, despite being not very good. I can't identify with your experience though: when I explain, after patiently listening to friends rattle on about Star Wars, that I don't like the films, that they are unintellectual, that they are not fun or interesting, the response I get is that I am somehow deficient. It's always the same when you stand yourself outside a religion in full view of foam-mouthed evangelists. You are cajoled, scolded, declared mad or evil, persecuted, ignored and ridiculed. There were some who have put 'Jedi' as their religion on recent censuses in the UK. I can really believe it. All the worst aspects of teeth-gnashing hallelujahism are seen in Star Wars 'fans'. I'm sure in less-safe times I could have been burned for such iconoclasm.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby threedognice » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:47 am UTC

alun009 wrote:That the whole franchise […] is shallow, fluffy and childish:

Star Wars on an intellectual par with Twighlight or Justin Bieber.

There is nothing wrong with being shallow, childish and/or unintellectual. Look at the ancient Greek tragedy, they were making characters out of cardboard – and it was awesome!

alun009 wrote:[T]hey are not fun or interesting […]

If a movie isn’t fun or interesting to you, it doesn’t necessarily say anything about its quality. It is impossible to create entertainment that works for everyone. Actually, this is one of the reasons why prequels failed to be decent films.

alun009 wrote:It's always the same when you stand yourself outside a religion in full view of foam-mouthed evangelists. You are cajoled, scolded, declared mad or evil, persecuted, ignored and ridiculed. There were some who have put 'Jedi' as their religion on recent censuses in the UK. I can really believe it.

While these things that certain Star Wars fans did to you were, to be frank, quite bad and mean-spirited, I can’t help but see your weird feeling of superiority as something unhealthy.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby yurell » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:45 am UTC

I rewatched the entire series again, and I must say I found the original trilogy incredibly boring. Time has not been kind to it — the amazing special effects are now laughable, all the tropes they employed have been so stereotyped as to be predictable, the acting of that age just feels ghastly to me ... overall, I didn't find it a particularly pleasant experience.
The Phantom Menace ... I did like the action scenes, but didn't like the aliens suddenly speaking English — I loved the way that they couldn't speak Basic in the original trilogy with some minor exceptions. The humour they attempted to add was childish and pathetic, and that podrace far outstayed its welcome. Own personal hatred, though, is that you're determined to find someone to bring balance to the force ... when you're winning? They must have felt pretty stupid in Episode III when they went "Oh, riiiiight! Balance means not hundreds of us vs two of them!"
Perhaps the biggest redeeming feature was Duel of the Fates.

Quite apart from all that, I enjoyed Episodes II & III. While nothing will have the impact of the Imperial March, I found Across the Stars to be the most beautiful music in the entire series, and I loved Battle of the Heroes.


I didn't get the comic though, thanks for explaining it!
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby SirMustapha » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:39 pm UTC

alun009 wrote:when I explain, after patiently listening to friends rattle on about Star Wars, that I don't like the films, that they are unintellectual, that they are not fun or interesting, the response I get is that I am somehow deficient. It's always the same when you stand yourself outside a religion in full view of foam-mouthed evangelists. You are cajoled, scolded, declared mad or evil, persecuted, ignored and ridiculed.


Hey! That sounds familiar! It happens often with a certain webcomic we are discussing at this very moment.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby alun009 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:54 pm UTC

There is nothing wrong with being shallow, childish and/or unintellectual. Look at the ancient Greek tragedy, they were making characters out of cardboard – and it was awesome!


Quite right. But as long as you don't elevate the artifact as worthy of something that is both enjoyable and replete with interesting and complex subtexts. Star Wars has been elevated to near-holy status for no good reason.

If a movie isn’t fun or interesting to you, it doesn’t necessarily say anything about its quality. It is impossible to create entertainment that works for everyone. Actually, this is one of the reasons why prequels failed to be decent films.


Indeed. Live and let live. As long as the world quietly accepts the fact that I see little merit in the franchise, I reciprocate. Sadly, this is not my experience.

While these things that certain Star Wars fans did to you were, to be frank, quite bad and mean-spirited, I can’t help but see your weird feeling of superiority as something unhealthy.


The only sense in which I feel superior is in that I don't have an unhealthy and evangelical obsession with anything. Unhealthy obsessions, sure! But I don't try to convert other people to it. "Oh, you're not into that? Ok, never mind then!" is what everyone should learn to say when they find their enthusiasm unreciprocated.
I once knew a guy who talked about Star Wars literally every time we met. This is not an exaggeration. I saw him at parties, playing sport, at concerts, at work, out in the street and, once, I went to his flat. Every one of those occasions, he would talk about Star Wars to me. It was the only evidence I saw that he was completely stark raving mad, so I'm not sure what conclusion to draw. His place was normal, not filled with memorabilia. He just couldn't stop talking about it. Weird! It's just a handful of films.

Anyway, I'm at risk of becoming the same but opposite, so I'll say no more about it. But I will happily read any advice anyone follows up with, or if anyone wants to try to explain why I am wrong, I'm all ears!

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby VectorZero » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:59 pm UTC

tyboy wrote:but when I watched the new star wars movies my sense wasn't that boba fett was a clone, but rather was the template the clone army was cloned from. I suppose biologically that's a trivial difference, but in terms of movie badassness it's quite a lot cooler.
Jango Fett was the original of whom all the clones are copies. Boba was the first clone. Still, he was characterised as an individual rather than a cookie cutter clone; guess he was more of a twin than a clone really.
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby AvatarIII » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:21 pm UTC

VectorZero wrote:
tyboy wrote:but when I watched the new star wars movies my sense wasn't that boba fett was a clone, but rather was the template the clone army was cloned from. I suppose biologically that's a trivial difference, but in terms of movie badassness it's quite a lot cooler.
Jango Fett was the original of whom all the clones are copies. Boba was the first clone. Still, he was characterised as an individual rather than a cookie cutter clone; guess he was more of a twin than a clone really.


not really, although genetics plays a major part in who someone is, their upbringing is very important too, and part of what makes a twin a twin is the fact they have a twin to share their life with, since Boba was bought up as if he were not a clone, and had no siblings, he was essentially just a kid that happened to have exactly the same genes as his father.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby VectorZero » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:31 pm UTC

Are twins separated at birth no longer twins?

My point was that Boba was an individual who shared Jango's genetics. I agree the relationship was father-son rather than brotherly.
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby AvatarIII » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:41 pm UTC

VectorZero wrote:Are twins separated at birth no longer twins?

only in the same way that siblings separated at birth are still brothers and/or sisters, yes biologically, but not psychologically.
VectorZero wrote:My point was that Boba was an individual who shared Jango's genetics. I agree the relationship was father-son rather than brotherly.

then we agree :D

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby VectorZero » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:16 pm UTC

Awww :)
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby DragonHawk » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:20 pm UTC

yurell wrote:I rewatched the entire series again, and I must say I found the original trilogy incredibly boring. Time has not been kind to it — the amazing special effects are now laughable, all the tropes they employed have been so stereotyped as to be predictable, the acting of that age just feels ghastly to me ...

While many of the effects are quite dated, some of them have actually held up amazingly well, IMO. The things that still work are generally because they actually had to build and blow-up models for everything; today it's all done with CGI and there are some things CGI *still* has a hard time with. (Explosions being one of them.) Some of the model shots were cheesy even when new, but some are real art. Those with a short attention span should now go back to the start of the paragraph where I say "many of the effects are quite dated".

Regarding the tropes... yes, they are predictable. There's a certain story format, called "The Hero's Journey", which has been around just about forever. It keeps getting re-used because it's good. Comments like this remind me of the old joke about Shakespeare: "I don't get what the big deal about Hamlet is; it's just a bunch of quotes and cliches strung together." The art is in the telling. Which brings me to...

"the acting of that age". This is a tough one to get over. There's definitely a *feel* to cinema productions from a given time period, and people tend to find it very jarring when they see films from earlier eras. I've found this has bothered me less as I've gotten older, not sure why. But now I can go back and appreciate a film like, say, The Maltese Falcon for the contemporary win it was, where as when I was younger I couldn't.

It's even worse with TV programs. I'm a Dr Who fan, and watching the early 1960s shows is definitely as much as a historical exercise as a entertainment one. TV production was so *different* then than by modern standards it seems downright screwy. For example, most of the first several years were recorded like a live stage production -- scenes recorded in story order, each episode all at once, and they didn't stop for anything short of a major catastrophe. They had a limited number of cameras, the cameras were *huge* machines, and they had to move them between sets while action continued. This lends a *very* different feel to things, on top of which you get the acting differences.

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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:45 am UTC

yurell wrote:Own personal hatred, though, is that you're determined to find someone to bring balance to the force ... when you're winning? They must have felt pretty stupid in Episode III when they went "Oh, riiiiight! Balance means not hundreds of us vs two of them!"

Word of God is that "restore balance to the Force" was to mean "eliminate the Dark Side", not "evenly match the Light and Dark sides". So that it's not one (Light) extreme balanced against another (Dark) extreme, but (Light) moderates triumphing over all (Dark) extremists.

But then there's very similar fridge logic to yours in that as far as the Jedi knew, the Sith were extinct, until one showed up right after they met Anakin. So you have the moderates thinking there are no extremists, and then they finally find the one prophesied to eliminate all extremists. Wait, what? They should have either been going "there are are no extremists, the Dark side was defeated" and disbelieved the prophecy all along, or realized that the Dark would have to rise again and the Force would have to become unbalanced, if someone was going to "restore" a balance which already existed at the time of the prophesy. In which case, finding the Chosen One prophesied to restore that balance, at a time when balance appeared to exist, should have been a giant red flag that things were about to get unbalanced real soon now, in this kid's life time, in order for there to be an opportunity to restore balance. So nobody should have been "Yay! The Chosen One!" They should have been "Oh shit..."

It's like if I informed you that very soon now you would be returned from the dead. You are still alive when I tell you this. That has unfortunate implications for the interim.
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Re: 0991: "Phantom Menace"

Postby Various Varieties » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:34 pm UTC

alun009 wrote:Childhood experiences become idealised. When faced with something from the same bracket, without nostalgia to back it up, you see plainly what others saw from the start.

My view is that nostalgia is as valid a reason for getting enjoyment from something as any other. You can continue to enjoy a film/band/book, while acknowledging that it's flawed and that the associated memories are a big reason you like it.

alun009 wrote:Unhealthy obsessions, sure! But I don't try to convert other people to it. "Oh, you're not into that? Ok, never mind then!" is what everyone should learn to say when they find their enthusiasm unreciprocated.
I once knew a guy who talked about Star Wars literally every time we met.

That's true, there's a difference between saying "You don't like that? Well you're crazy, you SHOULD like it and I'll explain why..." and "You don't like that? Well this is why I happen to enjoy it..." (which your friend should have said the first time the subject came up but never again afterwards).

And for the people on the "dislike" side of the argument: the Internet would be a more pleasant place if more people said, "I don't like this and I'll explain why, but I'm fine with other people getting enjoyment from it." [insert hippy-emoticon.gif here]


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