1027: "Pickup Artist"

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Bharrata
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Bharrata » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:35 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
tanthalas wrote:They may very well be wrong, but they are people too.


No they're not. Men who aren't getting sex but feel they deserve to are despicable and sub-human. They should lead miserable lives and die alone and unloved.


Hoooold on, feeling like you deserve to have something does not mean you actually deserve something.

the Ronpaul (or his supporters) may feel like he deserves to be President of the USA...but that does not make it so.


the Ronpaul is the newest iteration of Godwin btw.

RogueJustice
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:36 pm UTC

Bharrata wrote:
"Best case: Bunch of white knights thinking being Forever Alone puts them on some kind of moral high horse. Worst case: Pack of closet sexists who don't think women can make informed decisions and hence need 'protection' from 'jerks'."


So all men are sexists in disguise then?

I don't think most of us are saying women need to be protected from PUAs...just that PUA guys are, most of the time, scumbags.

Women are perfectly capable of making informed decisions, and they're perfectly capable of being wrong too. But then again I doubt your GF is actually dissecting the issue rather than giving her superficial opinion in an attempt to one-up snarkily. :wink:


Probably is. Personally, I don't think there's even any truth to pick-up art. It's like marketing people claiming that labeling something $3.99 people actually think of it as three bucks, rather than four. Whoever falls for it only gets what they deserve. Question should not be: "PUA: morally right or wrong?" but "PUA: Esoteric nonsense or actual science?"

EDIT: This would actually make only those who try to sell classes in it morally bad, because it'd be fraud.
Last edited by RogueJustice on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Zamfir
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:37 pm UTC

RogueJustice wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
RogueJustice wrote:Long-time lurker, first-time poster. But this 'discussion' is just too epic to not get a word in.

I was actually going to lurk more, but then I did something some people here might never have a chance to do: I asked my girlfriend what she thought on the matter and her response was so concise that I wanted to share it:

"Best case: Bunch of white knights thinking being Forever Alone puts them on some kind of moral high horse. Worst case: Pack of closet sexists who don't think women can make informed decisions and hence need 'protection' from 'jerks'."

In other news: Big German newspaper features today: "Tips for women: How to get any man!"

I wish I had a girlfriend, then I could ask her questions too. Do you know some things that could help me get a real girlfriend?


Took her over from her now ex-friend who was a long-term acquaintance of mine. He was a door-mat, I wasn't. Three years and counting.

She's a real girlfriend? You get to, like, touch her? Or you only talk about stuff? Because I already have girlfriends like that.

dawolf
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby dawolf » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:38 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Wait, so what fundamental argument made by PUA apologists or anti-PUA people in this thread isn't a moral argument, besides the brief analogy arguments? PUA apologists say PUA is moral, and anti-PUA people say it's not. Saying that anti-PUA people only have "moral outrage" is just an attempt to appeal to our resistance to moralize and grandstand. It's vacuously true, as we can just easily say that the PUA apologists' argument is "moral permissiveness."


Or you have people like me, who think that a fair chunk of what PUA's do is moral, whilst some of it I personally* find completely wrong.


* note personal. I also happen to think a lot of morals are based on individual people's moral standpoint, and that you can at one and the same time be completely upstanding based on your personal morality whilst being a degenerate bastard based on someone elses.

tanthalas
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby tanthalas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:38 pm UTC

RogueJustice wrote:Probably is. Personally, I don't think there's even any truth to pick-up art. It's like marketing people claiming that labeling something $3.99 people actually think of it as three bucks, rather than four. Whoever falls for it only gets what they deserve. Question should not be: "PUA: morally right or wrong?" but "PUA: Esoteric nonsense or actual science?"

Well, there's probably some truth in it, in the sense that it sells exactly what it sells and nothing more.

The fact that people think that it's what they need is where the clever and exploitative marketing/advertising scheme comes in.

The fact that people derive from it something more than what it advertises (a la "self improvement") is where the delusion comes in.

edit to reply the below:
dawolf wrote:Do you need your dreams to become reality, to make you happy? Or could you instead focus on happiness being the goal, and if you can achieve some long-held goals as well, that's a bonus?

I said this in my previous post - if happiness is your goal, then "getting the girl" shouldn't have to be a necessary condition for that. If it is, you need to do a lot more introspection. I say this as someone who's been there.
Last edited by tanthalas on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby dawolf » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:39 pm UTC

TheButler wrote:If nobody minds me taking this in a different direction, I could use some... spiritual advice, I suppose.

You look like you’re going to spend your life having one epiphany after another…but nothing will ever change…the thing standing in the way of your dreams…is you. :P


I might not be the only to say this, but that hit really close to home. Really close. It's actually got me kind of worked up at the moment, because of that last panel where she adds, "[Thinking about your life] won't help." -- and it hasn't.

Before anyone suggests the obvious, I've got a therapist, but all he ever wants to talk about is my sex-life. I swear I'm not a troll, I just need help. This place seems to have a lot of smart, capable people running around. Any advice?

-- Dreamless in Atlanta



Do you need your dreams to become reality, to make you happy? Or could you instead focus on happiness being the goal, and if you can achieve some long-held goals as well, that's a bonus?

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:40 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
RogueJustice wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
RogueJustice wrote:Long-time lurker, first-time poster. But this 'discussion' is just too epic to not get a word in.

I was actually going to lurk more, but then I did something some people here might never have a chance to do: I asked my girlfriend what she thought on the matter and her response was so concise that I wanted to share it:

"Best case: Bunch of white knights thinking being Forever Alone puts them on some kind of moral high horse. Worst case: Pack of closet sexists who don't think women can make informed decisions and hence need 'protection' from 'jerks'."

In other news: Big German newspaper features today: "Tips for women: How to get any man!"

I wish I had a girlfriend, then I could ask her questions too. Do you know some things that could help me get a real girlfriend?


Took her over from her now ex-friend who was a long-term acquaintance of mine. He was a door-mat, I wasn't. Three years and counting.

She's a real girlfriend? You get to, like, touch her? Or you only talk about stuff? Because I already have girlfriends like that.


Actually, if you excercise regular hygiene you even get to touch girls who are just friends.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby FireZs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:42 pm UTC

tanthalas wrote:
FireZs wrote:
tanthalas wrote:They may very well be wrong, but they are people too.


No they're not. Men who aren't getting sex but feel they deserve to are despicable and sub-human. They should lead miserable lives and die alone and unloved.


It's an equal disservice to the discussion to put up some ridiculous, hyperbolic claim like this and attribute it to what people are saying, when in fact they are saying anything but this. All it does is set up a straw man for the other side of this claim to burn, which leads to nothing but more miscommunication, frustration, and infuriation on each side.

I've seen you and J Thomas doing this the entire thread, and frankly, it's one of the reasons why I don't even bother to read half your posts anymore.


Do you not feel the hate? I mean, I agree with them in the sense that men are not inherently entitled to sex, but I will quote:

"This is annoying - just for this, I'd enjoy seeing every one of these douchebags die in a fire, and I'd happily bring the marshmallows.
Honestly, there are plenty of reasons why the world would be better off without these festering maggots." - Jpk

I'm not the one being hyperbolic here.


Bharrata wrote:
FireZs wrote:
tanthalas wrote:They may very well be wrong, but they are people too.


No they're not. Men who aren't getting sex but feel they deserve to are despicable and sub-human. They should lead miserable lives and die alone and unloved.


Hoooold on, feeling like you deserve to have something does not mean you actually deserve something.

the Ronpaul (or his supporters) may feel like he deserves to be President of the USA...but that does not make it so.

the Ronpaul is the newest iteration of Godwin btw.


Yeah, I agree with you. I just find it interesting that people here just seem to have a special level of rage reserved for these people. See: "Friends" thread.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby tanthalas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:44 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Do you not feel the hate? I mean, I agree with them in the sense that men are not inherently entitled to sex, but I will quote:

"This is annoying - just for this, I'd enjoy seeing every one of these douchebags die in a fire, and I'd happily bring the marshmallows.
Honestly, there are plenty of reasons why the world would be better off without these festering maggots." - Jpk

I'm not the one being hyperbolic here.

Oh, I feel the hate - even got to be on the receiving end of it just for being a bystander. But it's par for course in internet discussion, and I have enough experience with that to brush it off as knee-jerk reaction to some of the creepy stuff said here (and boy, have there been some truly creepy stuff here) rather than as an actual part of their core argument that needs to be addressed. To treat it as anything else would be a disservice both to myself and to them.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:45 pm UTC



Actually, if you excercise regular hygiene you even get to touch girls who are just friends.

Yeah, I have heard about that. But that's not really dirty touching, if you know what I mean. Like, between their legs.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:47 pm UTC

philsov wrote:
sophyturtle wrote:As someone madly in love with a not dominate man, I think people need to remember there is someone for everyone and maybe, just maybe, acting like someone you are not is not a good strategy for relationships. Cause like, how the fuck does that work?

BZZZZ BZZZZZBZZZZ

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Bharrata » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:47 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:


Actually, if you excercise regular hygiene you even get to touch girls who are just friends.

Yeah, I have heard about that. But that's not really dirty touching, if you know what I mean. Like, between their legs.


If you keep putting it that bluntly you'll never know the touch of a stranger.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:47 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:


Actually, if you excercise regular hygiene you even get to touch girls who are just friends.

Yeah, I have heard about that. But that's not really dirty touching, if you know what I mean. Like, between their legs.


Maybe if you ask them in your grown-up voice... Never hurts to try. Just be yourself!

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby FireZs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

tanthalas wrote:Oh, I feel the hate - even got to be on the receiving end of it just for being a bystander. But it's par for course in internet discussion, and I have enough experience with that to brush it off as knee-jerk reaction to some of the creepy stuff said here (and boy, have there been some truly creepy stuff here) rather than as an actual part of their core argument that needs to be addressed. To treat it as anything else would be a disservice both to myself and to them.


Yes, but I'm showing you why this is futile. You pointing out that PUA apologists are people too is meaningless when your audience is actually wishing death upon them.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:51 pm UTC

An adult voice is like a really deep voice, right? So I should wash better, and then ask girls I know if I can put my hand between her legs, but in a deep voice? I never tried it with an extra-deep voice, so it might be worth a try.

Any more tips? You seem to know what you are talking about.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:54 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:An adult voice is like a really deep voice, right? So I should wash better, and then ask girls I know if I can put my hand between her legs, but in a deep voice? I never tried it with an extra-deep voice, so it might be worth a try.

Any more tips? You seem to know what you are talking about.


Nothing in this world is free. So you should offer them a nickel.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Bharrata » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:55 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
tanthalas wrote:Oh, I feel the hate - even got to be on the receiving end of it just for being a bystander. But it's par for course in internet discussion, and I have enough experience with that to brush it off as knee-jerk reaction to some of the creepy stuff said here (and boy, have there been some truly creepy stuff here) rather than as an actual part of their core argument that needs to be addressed. To treat it as anything else would be a disservice both to myself and to them.


Yes, but I'm showing you why this is futile. You pointing out that PUA apologists are people too is meaningless when your audience is actually wishing death upon them.



tsss now if only we could convince the PUAs that women are people too tss tss OH :lol:

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:58 pm UTC

RogueJustice wrote:
Zamfir wrote:An adult voice is like a really deep voice, right? So I should wash better, and then ask girls I know if I can put my hand between her legs, but in a deep voice? I never tried it with an extra-deep voice, so it might be worth a try.

Any more tips? You seem to know what you are talking about.


Nothing in this world is free. So you should offer them a nickel.

Now you're making a joke, right?

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby tanthalas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:59 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
tanthalas wrote:Oh, I feel the hate - even got to be on the receiving end of it just for being a bystander. But it's par for course in internet discussion, and I have enough experience with that to brush it off as knee-jerk reaction to some of the creepy stuff said here (and boy, have there been some truly creepy stuff here) rather than as an actual part of their core argument that needs to be addressed. To treat it as anything else would be a disservice both to myself and to them.


Yes, but I'm showing you why this is futile. You pointing out that PUA apologists are people too is meaningless when your audience is actually wishing death upon them.

I don't think Jpk is talking specifically about PUA apologists or about the people to whom PUA is being sold to. It looks more to me that he's talking about the folks who are actively selling this stuff and profiting heavily from it at everyone's expense.

Bharrata wrote:
FireZs wrote:Yes, but I'm showing you why this is futile. You pointing out that PUA apologists are people too is meaningless when your audience is actually wishing death upon them.

tsss now if only we could convince the PUAs that women are people too tss tss OH :lol:

bazinga! :D But really though, the people in this thread (with exception to davvster and maybe J Thomas) don't seem to have trouble at all agreeing with the notion that women are people too (see that thing about platitudes that I got burned on). If anything, they're just misguided they just disagree about whether the methodologies they're subscribing to share that same view.
Last edited by tanthalas on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:59 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
RogueJustice wrote:
Zamfir wrote:An adult voice is like a really deep voice, right? So I should wash better, and then ask girls I know if I can put my hand between her legs, but in a deep voice? I never tried it with an extra-deep voice, so it might be worth a try.

Any more tips? You seem to know what you are talking about.


Nothing in this world is free. So you should offer them a nickel.

Now you're making a joke, right?


Of course. Classy women don't accept coins.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:03 pm UTC

Yeah, I understand it should be more than a nickel. But wouldn't it be like an insult?

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:05 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Yeah, I understand it should be more than a nickel. But wouldn't it be like an insult?


Honesty is important, so if you are not sure just ask politely if she'd be offended.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Bharrata » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:12 pm UTC

tanthalas wrote:But really though, the people in this thread (with exception to davvster and maybe J Thomas) don't seem to have trouble at all agreeing with the notion that women are people too (see that thing about platitudes that I got burned on). If anything, they're just misguided about whether the methodologies they're subscribing to share that same view.


The bolded is really the most important point.


I mean, I can empathize with introverted virgins or near-virgins with awkward social graces who want to be able to have the confidence to find a woman to build a relationship with...who inevitably end up taking poor advice from street-smart cynics...but I hope a lot of the desperate 17 yr old dudes reading or posting in this thread are starting to realize PUA is the equivalent of hack comedy or screenwriting, along with being morally repugnant (imo), and that there are waaaay better methodologies for developing yourself as a person that will end up making you more attractive.

Those other methodologies come with a time commitment (patience! who would've thunk :roll: ) whereas PUA tactics are, at least in the sub-text, selling the get rich/laid quick mentality.

Stoicism, Buddhism/meditation, martial arts, reading the entire literary section of the library, cultivating any sort of productive hobby that isn't video games or drinking are all good ways to make yourself more attractive to women, at least in my experience. Also...just not acting desperate.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby jpk » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:13 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Do you not feel the hate? I mean, I agree with them in the sense that men are not inherently entitled to sex, but I will quote:

"This is annoying - just for this, I'd enjoy seeing every one of these douchebags die in a fire, and I'd happily bring the marshmallows.
Honestly, there are plenty of reasons why the world would be better off without these festering maggots." - Jpk

I'm not the one being hyperbolic here.


There might be more than one person exercising hyperbole. I've already admitted that I'm one.

(Hyperbole on the internet? I've never heard of such a thing! Next thing you'll be telling me there are pictures of naked ladies...)

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:13 pm UTC

Offended if I offer her money, or offended that I want to be her boyfriend? The last is not really an insult, I think.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Роберт » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:15 pm UTC

RogueJustice wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, I understand it should be more than a nickel. But wouldn't it be like an insult?


Honesty is important, so if you are not sure just ask politely if she'd be offended.

RogueJustice is winning this thread.
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Bharrata » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:16 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Offended if I offer her money, or offended that I want to be her boyfriend? The last is not really an insult, I think.


Would assuming she'd be your girlfriend in exchange for many shinys be an insult?

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby tanthalas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:18 pm UTC

Bharrata wrote:The bolded is really the most important point.

I mean, I can empathize with introverted virgins or near-virgins with awkward social graces who want to be able to have the confidence to find a woman to build a relationship with...who inevitably end up taking poor advice from street-smart cynics...but I hope a lot of the desperate 17 yr old dudes reading or posting in this thread are starting to realize PUA is the equivalent of hack comedy or screenwriting, along with being morally repugnant (imo), and that there are waaaay better methodologies for developing yourself as a person that will end up making you more attractive.

Those other methodologies come with a time commitment (patience! who would've thunk :roll: ) whereas PUA tactics are, at least in the sub-text, selling the get rich/laid quick mentality.

Stoicism, Buddhism/meditation, martial arts, reading the entire literary section of the library, cultivating any sort of productive hobby that isn't video games or drinking are all good ways to make yourself more attractive to women, at least in my experience. Also...just not acting desperate.

One would hope so. This is more or less exactly in line with the post I made earlier (is it incredibly presumptuous to be quoting oneself? ah well, I'm going to do it anyway) --

tanthalas wrote:So that's what makes PUA at the same time so attractive (to those who feel they need it) and so repulsive (to those who know** that you really don't). It offers a shortcut - an easy way out of the inherently difficult task of growing, maturing, and increasing self-awareness. Instead of telling you to be a brutally honest and impartial observer of yourself and your interactions with other people, PUA offers a "here, try following this checklist/flowchart for teh success/secks!!!"

So in a lot of ways, it shifts the focus away from what self-improvement actually entails - which is a hell of a lot of introspection and observation, honesty with yourself, and a true abandonment of the ego (or at least, the beginnings of an attempt to do so)... and instead shifts the focus to everything but. Oh no, the problem isn't with you. It's the system. Don't hate the playa, hate The Game. Here are the ways you can game the system so that you can get the girl.

But if self-improvement is really the goal, then why all this fuss about getting the girl?

** to address this point of "knowing" - most folk here who see PUA as a sham have at some point or another acknowledged that they've "been there" - that is, they know what it's like to be stuck in the nice-guy/white-knight syndrome and seeing this as a very attractive way out. some have even gone down this path to find that it doesn't actually give you everything that it promises (or that it does, but what it promises really isn't good enough). but i'd daresay that all of them have at one point or another gone through or are still going through the grueling journey of finding out who they really are and how they can truly, authentically fit into this world of other people who are, just like them, trying to do the same.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Bharrata » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:20 pm UTC

i'd daresay that all of them have at one point or another gone through or are still going through the grueling journey of finding out who they really are and how they can truly, authentically fit into this world of other people who are, just like them, trying to do the same.


I may be remembering incorrectly...but wasn't Kierkegaard the first pick-up artist? 8) And not just because society told him it was cool. Swag before swag was swag.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm UTC

Bharrata wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Offended if I offer her money, or offended that I want to be her boyfriend? The last is not really an insult, I think.


Would assuming she'd be your girlfriend in exchange for many shinys be an insult?
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:26 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Offended if I offer her money, or offended that I want to be her boyfriend? The last is not really an insult, I think.


When in doubt, ask both.



And all jest aside, the following exchange from Family Guy sums up the PUA issue:

Brian: You're a son of a bitch. You're teaching us all this crap about how to get women and it's all a bunch of bull! I came here 'cause I wanted to get Denise back and instead, you ruined my life!
Quagmire: These skills aren't for women you care about, you idiot. This course is in getting laid, not finding love.
Brian: So, what's the point? If you never find love, then it's just meaningless sex. How will I get the woman of my dreams?
Quagmire: Only when you're ready. And maybe not even then. You see, women are a lot like Saturday Night Live sketches. Lots of them are awful, some are decent, and a few are pretty good. But then there's that one--that one woman who's as amazingly perfect as "Massive Head Wound Harry."


A woman who goes for a PUA is not tricked, they go for it because they want to. It is probably tricky to grasp for readers of a comic about love and romance (and math), but some people enjoy meaningless sex. They go out to hit on and be hit upon. They like the dance that is well-done seduction. It's like going into a paintball arena: You're there to shoot and get shot and facing someone who is skilled and trained is a welcome challenge, not a bad thing.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby J Thomas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:28 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Wait, so what fundamental argument made by PUA apologists or anti-PUA people in this thread isn't a moral argument, besides the brief analogy arguments? PUA apologists say PUA is moral, and anti-PUA people say it's not. Saying that anti-PUA people only have "moral outrage" is just an attempt to appeal to our resistance to moralize and grandstand. It's vacuously true, as we can just easily say that the PUA apologists' argument is "moral permissiveness."


I figure, since so far we've agreed we don't intend to kill each other over any particular issues, we might as well learn how to coexist. This is just a preference, not a moral imperative. I just like the idea.

I'd like to find out how to do that. There's such a diversity of people with diverse views, do we have to demonize each other over abstractions?

Well, but these aren't exactly abstractions. People have mind-pictures developed about it. Like, I can imagine a woman in a bar, and there's this really creepy guy, maybe he has a handlebar moustache and he's prematurely balding with his hair grown out like Bozo the Clown and a few hairs, maybe 50 or so, standing crooked 5" or so on the top of his head. And his face is kind of greasy, and he has a wild look in his eye. He's dressed in clothes that were never stylish but were durable enough that they don't show a lot of wear even though they're 30+ years old. So he comes up to this normal woman, and he starts trying to flirt with her. He has some sort of routine of come-on lines that weren't funny when they got printed in Readers Digest 20 years ago. She wants to get away but it's like watching a train wreck, she just can't move and she's a little scared too. And then he says some things that sound slightly scary, nothing you can put your finger on to say what it was but still scary. He moves so she's kind of cornered and she'd have to push past him to get away. He smells like a closet full of unwashed clothes. She decides to try an honest approach. "Look, I feel uncomfortable, you're too close, and I need to leave soon...." And he responds something like "I know you're interested in me. You try to hide it but you can't." And he doesn't back off. She doesn't want a confrontation but what can she do? She looks around and sees a used car salesman she had trouble getting rid of before. "Hi, Toby." "Heeeellllo! I was wondering where you were." And he puts his arm around her and bulls forward and intimidates the other creep into backing off. His moustache is neatly trimmed, he smells of Axe, but when you get right down to it he isn't much better.

When people write, other people see these pictures. Not the same pictures. They imagine they know what the words *really* mean. They think they know the reality.

How can we get past that to communicate? How can we get past the prejudice that gets people to say other people aren't human beings and deserve no respect? It's an interesting technical question.
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby tanthalas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:34 pm UTC

RogueJustice wrote:A woman who goes for a PUA is not tricked, they go for it because they want to. It is probably tricky to grasp for readers of a comic about love and romance (and math), but some people enjoy meaningless sex. They go out to hit on and be hit upon. They like the dance that is well-done seduction. It's like going into a paintball arena: You're there to shoot and get shot and facing someone who is skilled and trained is a welcome challenge, not a bad thing.

I think that's one of the more contentious parts of the disagreement here though, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the PUA community is more than just about picking up the women who go out "to hit on and be hit upon." (see: The CLAWWWWWW, that video Oskar posted - both of these are videos of girls being picked up on the street)

It's already been said that if both parties are consenting to take part in "The Game" and want to play with or cheat on "The Rules" - they have everyone's blessing to do exactly that. What's insidious about PUA is that it makes no distinction - nor does it have or instill the ability to make such a distinction - between this situation and one where it's not a consensual activity... which then leads to the disagreement of "how can you tell if she's into it or not?" And here is the slippery slope - one side is saying, "it's better to be safe than sorry by assuming that you don't have the tools to recognize the difference" and the other side is saying "nuh uh, I do and who are you to tell me otherwise?"
Last edited by tanthalas on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:41 pm UTC, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Роберт » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:35 pm UTC

J Thomas wrote: She doesn't want a confrontation but what can she do? She looks around and sees a used car salesman she had trouble getting rid of before. "Hi, Toby." "Heeeellllo! I was wondering where you were." And he puts his arm around her and bulls forward and intimidates the other creep into backing off.

Good thing there was a man around to save her? :roll:
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby philsov » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:44 pm UTC

A woman who goes for a PUA is not tricked, they go for it because they want to.


At this point the basics are so established I wouldn't be surprised that acting like a PUA throws up the flag of "I'm down for casual sex" to some women -- so they can just seek out the textbook guy who has some notable accessory with a strong desire to high-five, give him a super basic bitch test like "hold my drink for a sec" and when he passes by going "do I look like your manservant?" they know they're in the clear -- it can no longer be about any of the things PUA espouses (good or bad) but just sticks a target on your back. Which then "works" for people keen on the scent.

Kinda like when someone says "my english is very poor" you can respond with "Hello, my name is Philip. What is your name?" which then proceeds to the classic ~6-line conversation that anyone who took an introductory course is aware of.
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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby tanthalas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:45 pm UTC

philsov wrote:
A woman who goes for a PUA is not tricked, they go for it because they want to.


At this point the basics are so established I wouldn't be surprised that acting like a PUA throws up the flag of "I'm down for casual sex" to some women -- so they can just seek out the textbook guy who has some notable accessory with a strong desire to high-five, give him a super basic bitch test like "hold my drink for a sec" and when he passes by going "do I look like your manservant?" they know they're in the clear -- it can no longer be about any of the things PUA espouses (good or bad) but just sticks a target on your back. Which then "works" for people keen on the scent.

Kinda like when someone says "my english is very poor" you can respond with "Hello, my name is Philip. What is your name?" which then proceeds to the classic ~6-line conversation that anyone who took an introductory course is aware of.

PUA - the new self-fulfilling prophecy.

But I was just thinking - there ought to be a place where PUAs and these women-who-apparently-aren't-tricked-but-want-to-go-for-it can convene. Like a "pickup club" or something like that. Or a bar called "The Game." That'll just make things easier for everyone, except for the fact that there's still nothing to prevent someone to be using said PUA tactics anywhere and everywhere else.

But of course that brings us back to the semi-existential question of, "Would these techniques work on you if you actually knew that you were being worked on?" Because if so, then such a club would obviously be self-defeating.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby RogueJustice » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:49 pm UTC

tanthalas wrote:
RogueJustice wrote:A woman who goes for a PUA is not tricked, they go for it because they want to. It is probably tricky to grasp for readers of a comic about love and romance (and math), but some people enjoy meaningless sex. They go out to hit on and be hit upon. They like the dance that is well-done seduction. It's like going into a paintball arena: You're there to shoot and get shot and facing someone who is skilled and trained is a welcome challenge, not a bad thing.

I think that's one of the more contentious parts of the disagreement here though, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the PUA community is more than just about picking up the women who go out "to hit on and be hit upon." (see: The CLAWWWWWW, that video Oskar posted - both of these are videos of girls being picked up on the street)

It's already been said that if both parties are consenting to take part in "The Game" and want to play with or cheat on "The Rules" - they have everyone's blessing to do exactly that. What's insidious about PUA is that it makes no distinction - nor does it have or instill the ability to make such a distinction - between this situation and one where it's not a consensual activity... which then leads to the disagreement of "how can you tell if she's into it or not?" And here is the slippery slope - one side is saying, "it's better to be safe than sorry by assuming that you don't have the tools to recognize the difference" and the other side is saying "nuh uh, I do and who are you to tell me otherwise?"


I once saw a pretty girl on the train with a really cool hat. One station before my stop I got myself together, stood up and went over to her: "I've never done this before, but it's worth a try: I think you are the most interesting person on this train and I would like your cell number." She smiled and said "Why don't you give me yours and maybe I'll text you." I did and a few minutes after I left the train, she texted me. Contact was on and off for some time, I went to see one of her school plays. Somewhen in between, she told me how me noticing her made her day that time. We haven't talked in years, but it still was fun while it lasted.

Point of the story: A flirt, even outside the hunting grounds can be a pleasant experience for both parties. "No means No" applies of course. Girl in the comic does it just right: If you don't want that person around, shoot them down.

tanthalas wrote:But I was just thinking - there ought to be a place where PUAs and these women-who-apparently-aren't-tricked-but-want-to-go-for-it can convene. Like a "pickup club" or something like that. Or a bar called "The Game." That'll just make things easier for everyone, except for the fact that there's still nothing to prevent someone to be using said PUA tactics anywhere and everywhere else.

But of course that brings us back to the semi-existential question of, "Would these techniques work on you if you actually knew that you were being worked on?" Because if so, then such a club would obviously be self-defeating.


To be honest: If you are a single person going out to a bar or club and don't do it to meet new people, what is the point? Dancing all by yourself in the middle of a crowd? Maybe this does happen, but I think "People in a social location want to interact socially" is a sound assumption usually.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby TheButler » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:52 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:I suggest picking up a woman.


Sorry, I bat for the other team; and if it contributes to the larger discussion at all, "You're hot. Got a few minutes?" is usually all it takes for us. (use condoms, kids)

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby tanthalas » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:56 pm UTC

RogueJustice wrote:I once saw a pretty girl on the train with a really cool hat. One station before my stop I got myself together, stood up and went over to her: "I've never done this before, but it's worth a try: I think you are the most interesting person on this train and I would like your cell number." She smiled and said "Why don't you give me yours and maybe I'll text you." I did and a few minutes after I left the train, she texted me. Contact was on and off for some time, I went to see one of her school plays. Somewhen in between, she told me how me noticing her made her day that time. We haven't talked in years, but it still was fun while it lasted.

Point of the story: A flirt, even outside the hunting grounds can be a pleasant experience for both parties. "No means No" applies of course. Girl in the comic does it just right: If you don't want that person around, shoot them down.

Hats off to you for having the courage to do that. Even more hats off for doing it in a way that showed both openness and integrity - a far cry from the kind of stuff we've seen from the PUA stuff so far. According to anything any of the PUA apologists have advocated thus far, that is more or less the polar opposite of what you are supposed to do with a girl. A PUA would have gone in with a plan, a tactic... they would have opened with a neg maybe, or a compliment of some kind as an ice breaker. Then they'll try to go through the various stages of touching to get the girl comfortable with them. Then ... you get the idea.

So no disagreement here, really. Nobody's saying that it's wrong to ask out a cute girl you see on the street or at a cafe. What people are contesting isn't the act of approaching someone, but the manner, mindset, and motivation in which you do it.

In fact, your experience here serves as such an important lesson that's been repeated over and over again by many of the women who have participated in this thread. If you are interested in a girl, just go up and ask her and allow her a very clear exit strategy. If you can compliment a girl while making her feel safe for you having done so, that is damn sexy. Your experience here is a shining example that guys don't NEED to have a game plan, or a system, or a premeditated strategy, and that the simplest approach is often the most effective as well as the most respectful and ethical.

tanthalas wrote:To be honest: If you are a single person going out to a bar or club and don't do it to meet new people, what is the point? Dancing all by yourself in the middle of a crowd? Maybe this does happen, but I think "People in a social location want to interact socially" is a sound assumption usually.

There's a *huge* leap to be made from "I want to go out to be social" to "I want to go out to be worked by a pickup artist."
Last edited by tanthalas on Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:01 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Postby Jave D » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:59 pm UTC

J Thomas wrote:
Jave D wrote:
J Thomas wrote:Tell me what they say that doesn't fit this.

Is there something more than merely a moral outrage?

....

So what do you want addressed?


You could try addressing one of the many, many arguments actual posters make, instead of addressing the "arguments" you say they make in your generalized strawman summary. It starts with responding to another person other than yourself. Go back over the posts written to you in response to you and start there.


OK, I guess I'll do that. Somebody has to start somewhere, and it clearly won't be you.


If you give a glance over the posts I've made in this thousands-of-posts thread I've made plenty of arguments addressing specific things other posters said. Many of them went ignored, and so when you come along and go "where's the argument?" or "you guys aren't making an argument, just expressing moral outrage" it kind of makes me disinclined to continue being specific. Because it leads me to believe you're going to continue on the course of basically just ignoring or strawmanning or both.

As for you accusing people of not having empathy, and them not "proving" to you that they have it, what of it? When you ignore and dismiss entire arguments and then go "where's the argument?" you're going to find yourself confused as a matter of course.


Rather than consider whether anybody you agree with has shown empathy, you attack the messenger. My own thought is not to tell you that you're a no-good shit because you have utterly lacked empathy. I want to encourage you to try it. Of course, it's risky. When you actually see other people as human beings and notice how they feel, it might affect you.


Hey, I attacked the message and the messengers.

Jave D wrote:
J Thomas wrote:It looks to me like the anti-PUA side mostly doesn't have a position or an argument. What they have is a moral outrage. They say "You're bad. You're eevvvillll. Stop doing whatever it is you're doing and instead do what good people do. If you don't already know how good people do things it's because you're eeeevil and nobody should have any sympathy for you."


You really enjoy burning that strawman, don't you?

I mean it's always easier than actually addressing what someone else has actually said.


Here, Jave D says "You're wrong. You didn't pay attention to what other people actually said" with no attempt to show where I went wrong.

Of course it's always easier to say "You missed the point" than to state the point clearer.


See, you're doing it again. I didn't say "You're wrong." And you're right, that I didn't re-state my arguments for your benefit. Since you were allegedly "summarizing" them when you made your (strawman) arguments earlier, I figured you would at least go through and read what I and others have said rather than demanding I just repeat myself. I've made points where I supported my claims with selected PUA material on the internet and those just went ignored completely. Why then would I go through that effort again just because you say it wasn't clear? Hell, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about, which is sort of my point here with regards to ignoring/dismissing opposing arguments. You ignore them, then you 'summarized' them all-inclusively (allegedly!), and then you ask "what arguments?" and demand I make them again. Why bother? I can't be leading horses to water all day long, especially if I rather strongly suspect they don't want to drink.


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