1076: "Groundhog Day"

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby LuminaryJanitor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:55 am UTC

Reminds me a little of this.
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby JackApostrophe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:56 am UTC

Muz wrote:I like the comic...

...Except the loop didn't end when they slept together. On the loop it ended, they woke clothed. They hadn't slept together. They did sleep together PRIOR to that, IIRC, but...
They never have sex during the course of the film.

Essentially the film has two halves - in the first half, Phil is trying to get Rita to have sex with him, but no matter how much he lies and pretends she never agrees, even if he comes pretty close. Eventually he has a breakdown and confesses everything to Rita, demonstrating his preternatural knowledge of everything and everyone in town (as well as the card tossing that took him six months to master). At this point they sleep in the same bed, but all they do is talk. After that the second half is Phil trying to be a better man, until ultimately he reaches the key moment when he's such a great guy that Rita is willing to have sex with him, but he doesn't want to. That's when the loop breaks.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby The Cat » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:18 pm UTC

<3 U, y bacon tambien. anything done in good humor to brighten the day. Thank you.

It felt like a Sergio Leone film. Wait, I got a clip for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J77StPfQYHY
Last edited by The Cat on Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:39 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby Elirra » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:25 pm UTC

This is definitely a new take on the Big Bang.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby carolineee » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:01 pm UTC

I wonder why this comic wasn't posted on Feb 2nd or 3rd or October 23rd. Wouldn't that have been more apropriate?

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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby suso » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:16 pm UTC

JetstreamGW wrote:
suso wrote:Something sounded fishy. 264 days / 7 days = 37 weeks. Pregnancy lasts 40 weeks. So you're saying the earth was born premature? Probably expains a lot.


40 weeks is closer to 10 months, mate.


My calendar doesn't divide like that, you must be using one of those new fangled metric calendars.

The average month has 30.42 days.

40*7/30.42 = 9.20
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby suso » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:21 pm UTC

SerMufasa wrote:
suso wrote:Something sounded fishy. 264 days / 7 days = 37 weeks. Pregnancy lasts 40 weeks. So you're saying the earth was born premature? Probably expains a lot.


40 weeks is counted from the start of the woman's last period, not from the moment of conception. Since ovulation typically occurs about halfway through the menstrual cycle, the average woman is pregnant 37-38 weeks.


Good point. But then why do we always commonly say 9 or 9 and a half months? Shouldn't we be saying 8 and a half months then? I guess its a hold over from when they didn't know the science of it.
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby AvatarIII » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:25 pm UTC

a) This strip would have been better at the beginning of February or about 3/4 of the way through October, or at the very least, mid June (halfway between the 2).
b) The link in the OP is wrong and actually directs to comic 1072.

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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby SerMufasa » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:53 pm UTC

suso wrote:Good point. But then why do we always commonly say 9 or 9 and a half months? Shouldn't we be saying 8 and a half months then? I guess its a hold over from when they didn't know the science of it.


9 months is approximately 39 weeks, which is close to accurate to the 40 week approximation. 9.5 or 10 months are used by people that forget we get an extra week every 4 3 months (they're just dividing 38 weeks (from ovulation/likely conception) or 40 weeks (from prior menstruation) by 4 weeks per month).

I think they always knew how the science worked. It's just ... how do you know when a person has conceived? Sperm remains viable for some time in the uterus, and ovulation doesn't always occur on the same day in the cycle - and until recently, very few women were actively tracking. If the woman had sex daily or every other day throughout their cycle, you'd have no chance of knowing what day she actually conceived.

BUT, here's an experiment for you: walk down the street, and every non-pregnant woman you see who's under the age of 40: ask her when she got her last period. If they don't hit you (which would be a sign that they got it today), more likely than not, they know.

So [the following is speculation] doctors knew that it was approximately 38 weeks, but it's harder to pin a start date when you're unsure (especially if you don't realize it for a month or two), so they came up with the 40 week from last menstruation metric.
Last edited by SerMufasa on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:52 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby Zinho » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:59 pm UTC

suso wrote:
SerMufasa wrote:
suso wrote:Something sounded fishy. 264 days / 7 days = 37 weeks. Pregnancy lasts 40 weeks. So you're saying the earth was born premature? Probably expains a lot.


40 weeks is counted from the start of the woman's last period, not from the moment of conception. Since ovulation typically occurs about halfway through the menstrual cycle, the average woman is pregnant 37-38 weeks.


Good point. But then why do we always commonly say 9 or 9 and a half months? Shouldn't we be saying 8 and a half months then? I guess its a hold over from when they didn't know the science of it.


It's more of a problem with metrology than with medical comprehension. The doctors know that ovulation to delivery averages 37 weeks, but detecting ovulation in many women is difficult and frustrating (fertility clinics make a killing on this). It's much easier to detect the beginning of menstruation, which is generally offset from ovulation by a fixed 3-week interval; the biggest problem with this metric is accurate reporting - many women don't write down the date if they're not concerned about becoming pregnant. For healthy women with normal menstruation and gestation cycles an accurate measurement of "first day of last period" affords reasonable prediction of the due date and other major pregnancy milestones. Doctors may talk among themselves about 37 weeks being the official gestation period, but to their patients they uniformly say 40 weeks as timed from the beginning of menstruation and everyone knows what they're talking about.

Edit: ninja'd by SerMufasa :P

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:04 pm UTC

Schrottrocker wrote:This is one of those comics that make no sense at all unless you're from North America. First, I had to look up 'Groundhog Day' on wikipedia. Now I still don't know what that has to do with having sex, being trapped in a time loop and creating our world. Anybody willing to give insight?


Not just North America - pretty much anyone here (England) would get it. Where are you from?
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby SerMufasa » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:11 pm UTC

Zinho wrote:Edit: ninja'd by SerMufasa :P


Yeah, but you had a more concise answer.
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Re: 1072: Groundhog Day

Postby Max™ » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:39 pm UTC

AtG wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
rhomboidal wrote:If your lovemaking lasts longer than forever, consult a doctor immediately.

Preferably one with a degree is physics?

Transfinite sex is the domain of mathematicians.

Thank you, glad someone pointed that out.

If the cardinality of your sex is larger than that of the natural numbers... giggity giggity giggity.
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby LOLvis » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:But anyway, Bill Murray fucked us into existence...


"And the best part is... No one will ever believe you."

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Re: 1072: Groundhog Day

Postby Oktalist » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:06 pm UTC

rhomboidal wrote:If your lovemaking lasts longer than forever, consult a doctor immediately.

Or sooner.
philip1201 wrote:Not everything which maps countable infinities onto finite areas is a Lovecraft reference.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby AvatarIII » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:19 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
Schrottrocker wrote:This is one of those comics that make no sense at all unless you're from North America. First, I had to look up 'Groundhog Day' on wikipedia. Now I still don't know what that has to do with having sex, being trapped in a time loop and creating our world. Anybody willing to give insight?


Not just North America - pretty much anyone here (England) would get it. Where are you from?


as a Brit myself, I got it, but saying that I actually went a very long time believing that Groundhog day was just a made-up "comedy" holiday invented just for the movie, it was quite a shock to discover that it was a real thing.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby humanalien » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:25 pm UTC

I prefer the interpretation that the loop didn't break because of his relationship with Rita, it broke because that was the first cycle in which he bought insurance from Ned Ryerson:

http://www.johnanderikaspeak.com/an/2009/08/31/520/

BTW, anyone else find it strange that Randall refers to the male lead by the name of the actor, and to the female lead by the name of the character?
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby rcox1 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:37 pm UTC

JetstreamGW wrote:
suso wrote:Something sounded fishy. 264 days / 7 days = 37 weeks. Pregnancy lasts 40 weeks. So you're saying the earth was born premature? Probably expains a lot.


40 weeks is closer to 10 months, mate.


Typically 9 1/2 months, which is a much better movie.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:48 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:
Schrottrocker wrote:This is one of those comics that make no sense at all unless you're from North America. First, I had to look up 'Groundhog Day' on wikipedia. Now I still don't know what that has to do with having sex, being trapped in a time loop and creating our world. Anybody willing to give insight?


Not just North America - pretty much anyone here (England) would get it. Where are you from?


as a Brit myself, I got it, but saying that I actually went a very long time believing that Groundhog day was just a made-up "comedy" holiday invented just for the movie, it was quite a shock to discover that it was a real thing.


It's like when I discovered that on my birthday, you Brits burn effigies of the Pope.

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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby rcox1 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:07 pm UTC

da Doctah wrote:
SerMufasa wrote:40 weeks is counted from the start of the woman's last period, not from the moment of conception. Since ovulation typically occurs about halfway through the menstrual cycle, the average woman is pregnant 37-38 weeks.

You do realize that knowing this much about the subject and discussing it in public is enough to get you banned from the Michigan state House of Representatives?

Not to mention the Arizona thought police who will lock up anyone who claims that pregnancy begins at conception, and not at the first day of her last menstrual cycle. Another example of commonly accepted facts falling to bible based fantasy in the deep white south.

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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby SerMufasa » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:17 pm UTC

rcox1 wrote:Not to mention the Arizona thought police who will lock up anyone who claims that pregnancy begins at conception, and not at the first day of her last menstrual cycle. Another example of commonly accepted facts falling to bible based fantasy in the deep white south.


There's about three "Wait, what?" for this comment
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Re: 1072: Groundhog Day

Postby willaaaaaa » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm UTC

SoaG wrote:
rhomboidal wrote:If your lovemaking lasts longer than forever, consult a doctor immediately.

More likely your doctor will want to consult you...or at least his wife will wish he would.


Aggh you played into the assumption that all doctors are male! :(
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby Rotherian » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:05 pm UTC

rcox1 wrote:Not to mention the Arizona thought police who will lock up anyone who claims that pregnancy begins at conception, and not at the first day of her last menstrual cycle. Another example of commonly accepted facts falling to bible based fantasy in the deep white south.[citation needed]


Do you honestly think that everyone in a given geographic region adheres to a single stereotype?
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby Max™ » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:25 pm UTC

Rotherian wrote:
rcox1 wrote:Not to mention the Arizona thought police who will lock up anyone who claims that pregnancy begins at conception, and not at the first day of her last menstrual cycle. Another example of commonly accepted facts falling to bible based fantasy in the deep white south.[citation needed]


Do you honestly think that everyone in a given geographic region adheres to a single stereotype?

More importantly, do they think that Arizona is in the Deep South?
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Btw, burning effigies of the pope is only silly because it's being done for stupid reasons, as if protestants are less awful than catholics.
Last edited by Max™ on Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:32 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby hyperpape » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:27 pm UTC

Also, Arizona is not the South. It's debatable whether Texas is or not, but no Southerner would call Arizona the South (much less the Deep South, which typically means Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, maybe Louisiana).

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Re: 1072: Groundhog Day

Postby snowyowl » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:04 pm UTC

Max™ wrote:
AtG wrote:<snip>

Transfinite sex is the domain of mathematicians.

Thank you, glad someone pointed that out.

If the cardinality of your sex is larger than that of the natural numbers... giggity giggity giggity.


Shouldn't we be working in ordinal numbers instead? Since we're assuming a countably infinite number of February 2nds followed by a February 3rd (which itself is presumably followed by a countably infinite number of usual days), order seems more important than cardinality.
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Re: 1072: "Groundhog Day"

Postby JeromeWest » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:15 pm UTC

philip1201 wrote:Not everything which maps countable infinities onto finite areas is a Lovecraft reference.


That has not count which maps infinity,
And finite areas maps eternally.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:28 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:
Schrottrocker wrote:This is one of those comics that make no sense at all unless you're from North America. First, I had to look up 'Groundhog Day' on wikipedia. Now I still don't know what that has to do with having sex, being trapped in a time loop and creating our world. Anybody willing to give insight?


Not just North America - pretty much anyone here (England) would get it. Where are you from?


as a Brit myself, I got it, but saying that I actually went a very long time believing that Groundhog day was just a made-up "comedy" holiday invented just for the movie, it was quite a shock to discover that it was a real thing.


It's like when I discovered that on my birthday, you Brits burn effigies of the Pope.


Used to. It's only Guy Fawkes now...
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby anian » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:40 pm UTC

Still do in some areas.

Was it just me who was really creeped out by this cartoon?

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Re: 1072: Groundhog Day

Postby Max™ » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:00 pm UTC

snowyowl wrote:
Max™ wrote:
AtG wrote:<snip>

Transfinite sex is the domain of mathematicians.

Thank you, glad someone pointed that out.

If the cardinality of your sex is larger than that of the natural numbers... giggity giggity giggity.


Shouldn't we be working in ordinal numbers instead? Since we're assuming a countably infinite number of February 2nds followed by a February 3rd (which itself is presumably followed by a countably infinite number of usual days), order seems more important than cardinality.


Well, no, cardinality refers to the size of an infinity, ordinality refers to the order type.


Does raise an interesting point though. Can you place a distinct order on a countably infinite number of the same day?

I know it's implied that he remembers from day to day, but the human memory can not hold that much data, so at some point he himself would have to be rebooted, which then raises the question of it is possible to even claim that the order observed in the movie wasn't merely accidental, given a large enough selection of such days arranged randomly you would find the exact sequence we observed, would you not?
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby xquestion » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:57 pm UTC

niky wrote:Ray, the next time somebody asks you if you are a God...

Creating a new universe is the least BFM could do after crossing the beams and destroying the universe.

###

I really like this movie for 2 things:
- Brilliant use of the time loop plot device (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_loop)
- Exploration of the psychological effects of this inverse amnesia condition, where you remember stuff that happened, people you've met, but the whole world don't.

###

One thing I don't like in the plot is why didn't he try harder to leave the town? He just tried the first day, before he knew he was trapped.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby Hazzardpay » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:27 pm UTC

Hey, Just wanted to pop in and say this about the movie. I was always under the impression that the reason he was finally able to progress to the next day was that 42 "days" (or rather repeated days) had passed.
Traditionally, if the groundhog "sees his shadow", we get 6 more weeks of winter. This translates to Murray getting 6 more weeks of that horrible town that I don't feel like looking up the spelling for (Punxa-whatsit).

Also: If you count up the number of days that passed, as well as the number of times he mentions killing himself in interesting ways, you get 42 days accounted for.

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Re: 1072: Groundhog Day

Postby Maurits » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:11 pm UTC

Max™ wrote:I know it's implied that he remembers from day to day, but the human memory can not hold that much data, so at some point he himself would have to be rebooted


Does not follow. He could pick certain (important) things to remember from a very sparse subset of the whole time span. Intermediate results could be thrown away. Compare the Library of Alexandria storing important results obtained from the onset of literacy until its destruction, or Wikipedia today.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby carega » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:18 pm UTC

it really pisses me off that randy assumes they had sex. they didn't, that's what makes the scene (and also the main character's change) so important. He went from being a jerk to a sensitive human being.

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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby The Cat » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:35 pm UTC

This thread went in an interesting direction. Max, I love your humor. No river, must be going Roosevelt on that. Put the spurs and whip to it, if need be. Hopefully that won't be necessary. We got easily manipulated impressionable people all over this country. It always boils down to greed. Lord knows I don't wanna see the chop shop king writing checks. Damn right, it's extremely important. We no longer have the luxury of pettiness.

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Re: 1072: Groundhog Day

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:04 am UTC

Maurits wrote:
Max™ wrote:I know it's implied that he remembers from day to day, but the human memory can not hold that much data, so at some point he himself would have to be rebooted


Does not follow. He could pick certain (important) things to remember from a very sparse subset of the whole time span. Intermediate results could be thrown away. Compare the Library of Alexandria storing important results obtained from the onset of literacy until its destruction, or Wikipedia today.

It would still lead to an infinite amount of data to sift through unless we assume each day exists independently of every other and merely wound up producing the arrangement of the movie randomly.

Also, ty cat, though I'm not picking up the reference you're making if it is one.
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby SerMufasa » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:09 am UTC

He wouldn't remember every day, necessarily. It's no different from the memory we have of our commute: we know which way to go and what to do on the way, but we rarely recall individual/daily details of the route. Once specific actions he takes become repetitive, they'd be like the memory of a commute for him. When he finally puts it together (as proposed in the comic), each day would be the same as the last and he wouldn't really remember them individually.
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:17 am UTC

Yeah, but didn't he kill himself a couple times too?

So he's clearly reset, but there is some method which chooses what is reset, body damage and aging? That goes away. Particular types of information from other days? Keep it, but there still has to be a filter and some sort of ultimate progress towards a certain end state to avoid the infinite data overload issue, I'd think.

Conclusion: Groundhog Day takes place in a virtual machine running Reality 1.0, the system was trapped into a loop, it produced Bill Murray to identify and resolve the issue, Bill Murray then went on to star in What About Bob? in the Reality 2.0 iteration, prior to Groundhog Day, which itself an easter egg in the larger system which references the truth: Bill Murray is Bob from Reboot!
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby SerMufasa » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:27 am UTC

But the days he killed himself would have less* memories to develop. And he obviously remembers failing to kill himself.

There's essentially three phases: the initial phase, up to the almost-moment with Rita in the snow; the second phase, when he tries to recreate that deliberately (and if I remember correctly this is the phase where he's trying to save the homeless guy); and the final phase, where through repetition he finally hits on the right formula. The second phase is when he needs to remember (or tries to remember) the most details. But once he moves into the final phase, he can discard many of the memories from the first and second phases; he's already incorporated the important ones into his routine. And the individual memories become less and less important due to repetition. Oddly enough, it's when he's reduced his life to a robotic repetition that he finally gets Rita.

*no, I'm not going to write "fewer" just to satisfy grammar nazis. "Less" is grammatically viable here, and has been in use this way for centuries

EDIT: "snow", not "show". And I added the sentence starting "Oddly enough"
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Re: 1076: "Groundhog Day"

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:58 am UTC

That's all well and good, but the important thing is, we finally found out what happened to Bob and why Reboot hasn't had a... reboot.
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