1123: "The Universal Label"

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Max™
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Max™ » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:54 am UTC

If you want to step back from hydrogen+time then you may as well say "Universal ingredients: a singularity, bake on high for 10-43 seconds, cool to taste" really.

Too little energy and you don't get hydrogen, you get electron-positron pair production, yay, free gamma rays!
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Vroomfundel » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:02 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:I...really?

Ionized Carbon is essentially twelve Hydrogen nuclei fused together, where six of them have become Neutrons.

All nuclei are just various variations on Hydrogen nuclei.


So was all the hydrogen in the early universe protium? Now that this issue came to the fore I realize that I don't know through what process did all the neutrons come about, and that's a fairly central step in the creation of matter as we know it. Anyone care to explain a post an informative link?
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Ekaros » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:02 pm UTC

Am I only one to think that some of the recipes provided here are very very wasteful?

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Vroomfundel » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:09 pm UTC

Vroomfundel wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:I...really?

Ionized Carbon is essentially twelve Hydrogen nuclei fused together, where six of them have become Neutrons.

All nuclei are just various variations on Hydrogen nuclei.


So was all the hydrogen in the early universe protium? Now that this issue came to the fore I realize that I don't know through what process did all the neutrons come about, and that's a fairly central step in the creation of matter as we know it. Anyone care to explain a post an informative link?


Couldn't wait, sorry... it's Beta decay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92%E2%88%92_decay
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby tastony » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:16 pm UTC

Use-by date: 1032 years
I waited.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Max™ » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:20 pm UTC

Vroomfundel wrote:
Vroomfundel wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:I...really?

Ionized Carbon is essentially twelve Hydrogen nuclei fused together, where six of them have become Neutrons.

All nuclei are just various variations on Hydrogen nuclei.


So was all the hydrogen in the early universe protium? Now that this issue came to the fore I realize that I don't know through what process did all the neutrons come about, and that's a fairly central step in the creation of matter as we know it. Anyone care to explain a post an informative link?


Couldn't wait, sorry... it's Beta decay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92%E2%88%92_decay

Uh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe

Quark epoch

Between 10–12 seconds and 10–6 seconds after the Big Bang

Main article: Quark epoch

In electroweak symmetry breaking, at the end of the electroweak epoch, all the fundamental particles are believed to acquire a mass via the Higgs mechanism in which the Higgs boson acquires a vacuum expectation value. The fundamental interactions of gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong interaction and the weak interaction have now taken their present forms, but the temperature of the universe is still too high to allow quarks to bind together to form hadrons.
Hadron epoch

Between 10–6 seconds and 1 second after the Big Bang

Main article: Hadron epoch

The quark-gluon plasma that composes the universe cools until hadrons, including baryons such as protons and neutrons, can form. At approximately 1 second after the Big Bang neutrinos decouple and begin traveling freely through space. This cosmic neutrino background, while unlikely to ever be observed in detail, is analogous to the cosmic microwave background that was emitted much later. (See above regarding the quark-gluon plasma, under the String Theory epoch)
Lepton epoch

Between 1 second and 10 seconds after the Big Bang

Main article: Lepton epoch

The majority of hadrons and anti-hadrons annihilate each other at the end of the hadron epoch, leaving leptons and anti-leptons dominating the mass of the universe. Approximately 10 seconds after the Big Bang the temperature of the universe falls to the point at which new lepton/anti-lepton pairs are no longer created and most leptons and anti-leptons are eliminated in annihilation reactions, leaving a small residue of leptons.[4]
Photon epoch

Between 10 seconds and 380,000 years after the Big Bang

Main article: Photon epoch

After most leptons and anti-leptons are annihilated at the end of the lepton epoch the energy of the universe is dominated by photons. These photons are still interacting frequently with charged protons, electrons and (eventually) nuclei, and continue to do so for the next 380,000 years.
Nucleosynthesis

Between 3 minutes and 20 minutes after the Big Bang[5]

Main article: Big Bang nucleosynthesis

During the photon epoch the temperature of the universe falls to the point where atomic nuclei can begin to form. Protons (hydrogen ions) and neutrons begin to combine into atomic nuclei in the process of nuclear fusion. Free neutrons combine with protons to form deuterium. Deuterium rapidly fuses into helium-4. Nucleosynthesis only lasts for about seventeen minutes, since the temperature and density of the universe has fallen to the point where nuclear fusion cannot continue. By this time, all neutrons have been incorporated into helium nuclei. This leaves about three times more hydrogen than helium-4 (by mass) and only trace quantities of other nuclei.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron_epoch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryogenesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptogenesis_%28physics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Arancaytar » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:33 pm UTC

The fact that "thyme" made me think "Mussolini" is evidence, I suppose, of how badly I have xkcd on the brain.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:37 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:You forgot energy. Lots of energy.


You forgot E= mc^2

I guess I'm supposed to edit purely to announce this is ninja'd. Screw that.

So, if "time is money," what's the difference between Big Bang Inflationary Period and the Federal Reserve handing out cash like candy?
Last edited by cellocgw on Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby super dark33 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:41 pm UTC

Damn, thats probably the smallest xkcd comic ever!
which one was before?

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Vroomfundel » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:43 pm UTC

Max™ wrote:
Main article: Big Bang nucleosynthesis

During the photon epoch the temperature of the universe falls to the point where atomic nuclei can begin to form. Protons (hydrogen ions) and neutrons begin to combine into atomic nuclei in the process of nuclear fusion. Free neutrons combine with protons to form deuterium. Deuterium rapidly fuses into helium-4. Nucleosynthesis only lasts for about seventeen minutes, since the temperature and density of the universe has fallen to the point where nuclear fusion cannot continue. By this time, all neutrons have been incorporated into helium nuclei. This leaves about three times more hydrogen than helium-4 (by mass) and only trace quantities of other nuclei.



I've read these articles but time has diluted some of the details. This paragraph fills the gab about the primordial hydrogen isotope and is... just... wow, 17 minutes. If this is correct we've nailed down the history of the universe quite precisely.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Jackpot777 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:53 pm UTC

iChef wrote:This would be a cool question for the Tuesday feature. How much time and hydrogen does it take to make some common household items. I suppose the answer for each item might just be 16.4 billion years and about a universe worth of hydrogen, give or take.


Ah, but will it blend?

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Radical_Initiator » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:54 pm UTC

Vroomfundel wrote:
Max™ wrote:
Main article: Big Bang nucleosynthesis

During the photon epoch the temperature of the universe falls to the point where atomic nuclei can begin to form. Protons (hydrogen ions) and neutrons begin to combine into atomic nuclei in the process of nuclear fusion. Free neutrons combine with protons to form deuterium. Deuterium rapidly fuses into helium-4. Nucleosynthesis only lasts for about seventeen minutes, since the temperature and density of the universe has fallen to the point where nuclear fusion cannot continue. By this time, all neutrons have been incorporated into helium nuclei. This leaves about three times more hydrogen than helium-4 (by mass) and only trace quantities of other nuclei.



I've read these articles but time has diluted some of the details. This paragraph fills the gab about the primordial hydrogen isotope and is... just... wow, 17 minutes. If this is correct we've nailed down the history of the universe quite precisely.

"I was gonna make a beer run to ... the next universe over, but if all the good hydrogen's going to be gone by then, I think I'll just wait a few billion years."
I looked out across the river today …

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby digitig » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:00 pm UTC

Why does it need hydrogen and time? I thought both came into being as a result of the big bang. What is needed for the big bang? I'm out of my depth, but I think it's just quantum uncertainty. So there you are:
Ingredients:
Quantum uncertainty.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:06 pm UTC

Ingredients (by mass): Hydrogen (75%), Helium (25%).

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Max™ » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:07 pm UTC

Vroomfundel wrote:
Max™ wrote:
Main article: Big Bang nucleosynthesis

During the photon epoch the temperature of the universe falls to the point where atomic nuclei can begin to form. Protons (hydrogen ions) and neutrons begin to combine into atomic nuclei in the process of nuclear fusion. Free neutrons combine with protons to form deuterium. Deuterium rapidly fuses into helium-4. Nucleosynthesis only lasts for about seventeen minutes, since the temperature and density of the universe has fallen to the point where nuclear fusion cannot continue. By this time, all neutrons have been incorporated into helium nuclei. This leaves about three times more hydrogen than helium-4 (by mass) and only trace quantities of other nuclei.



I've read these articles but time has diluted some of the details. This paragraph fills the gab about the primordial hydrogen isotope and is... just... wow, 17 minutes. If this is correct we've nailed down the history of the universe quite precisely.

An excerpt from Exultant, by Stephen Baxter, in which one of his characters works out the history of civilizations which arose and lived and tried to survive the phase changes in the early universe, which sounds impossible, but he handwaves that away with a simple explanation. If you live hot, you live fast.

Spacetime chemistry lifeforms (imagine something made out of cosmic strings and monopole defects, like a strand of water which didn't freeze in a block of ice) which were later known as Xeelee, and Quagmites, considered pests by humans because they are attracted to the backup drive GUT engines anytime they're fired up (Grand Unified Theory engines, smash matter together hard enough and replicate the early universe, let it expand, poof, badass rocket) and "communicate" by spraying information at the GUT drive glow, massive little lumps of quark-gluon matter shooting you with heavy particles would seem a bit annoying if you didn't know they were trying to talk to what appeared to be a fellow survivor of the early universe, but was actually your engine.
It seemed to the quagmites that the ages that had preceded their own had been impossibly brief, a mere flash in the afterglow of the singularity. But it was a common error. The pace of life scaled to temperature: if you lived hot, you lived fast. The quagmites did not suspect that the creatures who had inhabited earlier, warmer ages had crammed just as many experiences - just as much "life" - into their brief instants of time. As the universe expanded, every generation, living slower than the last, saw only a flash of heat and light behind it, nothing but a cold dark tunnel ahead - and each generation thought that it was only now that a rich life was possible.

...

The comfortable era of the quagmites couldn't last forever; nothing ever did. It was when the universe was thirty times older than it was at the end of the matter-antimatter conflict that the first signs of the quagmites' final disaster were detected.

With the subatomic drama of nucleosynthesis over, the various survivors sailed resentfully on. There were the last quagmites in their arks, and much-evolved descendants of the spacetime-condensate symbiotes of earlier times yet, all huddling around the primordial black holes. To them the universe was cold and dark, a swollen monster where the temperature was a mere billion degrees, the cosmic density only about twenty times water. The universe was practically a vacuum, they complained, and its best days were already behind it.

The universe was three minutes old.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Klear » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:19 pm UTC

I need to read more stuff by Baxter. His books are crazy awesome. I doubt anybody else ever made a story involving wars where entire galaxies are used as projectiles sound so plausible.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Max™ » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:45 pm UTC

Yeah, they're a bit dense for some tastes, but I love the hell out of them. Got 8 or 9 of them sitting behind my chair right now, can't find my copy of Vacuum Diagrams, but I read it enough times that I have one in my head, lol.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Shoaler » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:24 pm UTC

If you want anything very complex, you're going to need a supernova.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Max™ » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:37 pm UTC

Shoaler wrote:If you want anything very complex, you're going to need a supernova.

The first stars formed from clouds which could not cool enough to form little stars like the sun, the first stars were glorious monsters hundreds of times heavier than the sun, bluer and whiter than anything should be, spraying ultraviolet light into the remaining gas clouds as they announced themselves.

They rapidly began fusing hydrogen and helium into heavier elements, and within a million or so years most likely were nearing the production of iron.

Sometimes swords are given names like Foeslayer or Kingbreaker, but any sword with iron in it could rightfully be called Starkiller, producing iron is a dead end for stars, no more would fusion liberate energy, and at that point the processes keeping the bulk of the star from collapsing further could not continue.

Gravity clenches it's fist, the core lets out a scream of neutrinos, and a newborn black hole begins to feed before the rest of the star has a chance to register it's own death.

A large cloud of hydrogen is going to produce a supernova, only heavier elements make stars which will escape that fate.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby chrisk » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:00 pm UTC

Well, I'm going to add my own nitpicks:

First, you're gonna need some space to put your hydrogen. ;)

Also, to get anything much out of hydrogen and time, you'll also need some forces. Gravity for sure, and at least one nuclear force. How many of the known forces are actually involved in the process of fusing higher elements inside stars?

With hydrogen, space, time, and forces, I think it's fair to say you can get all the energy you need. :) Is that right?

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby orthogon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:15 pm UTC

Vroomfundel wrote:
Max™ wrote:
Main article: Big Bang nucleosynthesis

During the photon epoch the temperature of the universe falls to the point where atomic nuclei can begin to form. Protons (hydrogen ions) and neutrons begin to combine into atomic nuclei in the process of nuclear fusion. Free neutrons combine with protons to form deuterium. Deuterium rapidly fuses into helium-4. Nucleosynthesis only lasts for about seventeen minutes, since the temperature and density of the universe has fallen to the point where nuclear fusion cannot continue. By this time, all neutrons have been incorporated into helium nuclei. This leaves about three times more hydrogen than helium-4 (by mass) and only trace quantities of other nuclei.



I've read these articles but time has diluted some of the details. This paragraph fills the gab about the primordial hydrogen isotope and is... just... wow, 17 minutes. If this is correct we've nailed down the history of the universe quite precisely.


I don't know why, but I love it that 17 minutes is not only an easily conceivable human timescale (femtosecond, schmemtosecond!), but is bang in the middle of the range of how long you would actually cook something for. It would fit neatly into a TV cookery programme. "And those nuclei should be just about ready now..."
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby webdude » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:17 pm UTC

"Even thyme is just H and time."

Y would you make such an element-ary era?

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Quarg Ranger » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:37 pm UTC

People talking about Energy -

Gravitational Potential Energy will exist between the hydrogen particles. Over time this will turn to kinetic energy. The other forces are implied by the existence of hydrogen.

Also, E=mc^2 says we have energy there, which will be released when fusion starts happening, as it inevitably will.

Person who said about Higgs field, I suppose you could argue that it's not explicit that Hydrogen has mass, but I would imagine that it's also implied in the same way the other things are.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby StCredZero » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:04 pm UTC

How about a new set of lyrics for "Scarborough Fair?"

"Parsley, sage, is hydrogen and thyme!"

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Someguy945 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:25 pm UTC

Trimalchio wrote:*Warning: Not applicable in weakless universes.


I don't think Randall made any oversight. The name of the comic strip is "The Universal Label". It works anywhere in this universe.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Someguy945 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:27 pm UTC

Quarg Ranger wrote:People talking about Energy -

Gravitational Potential Energy will exist between the hydrogen particles. Over time this will turn to kinetic energy. The other forces are implied by the existence of hydrogen.

Also, E=mc^2 says we have energy there, which will be released when fusion starts happening, as it inevitably will.


Why is any of this an issue? Does the ingredients section for a candy bar say "Electricity" anywhere on it?

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Kaden » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:41 pm UTC

Someguy945 wrote:Why is any of this an issue? Does the ingredients section for a candy bar say "Electricity" anywhere on it?


My thoughts exactly! When you look at a cake recipe, the ingredient list doesn't include heat from the oven. It's in the instructions on how to make it! :roll:

Just for the record, though... [/not a scientist]
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby neremanth » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:03 pm UTC

super dark33 wrote:Damn, thats probably the smallest xkcd comic ever!
which one was before?

I don't know for sure, but I'd guess this one. (Warning: view at your own risk).

Kaden wrote:
Someguy945 wrote:Why is any of this an issue? Does the ingredients section for a candy bar say "Electricity" anywhere on it?


My thoughts exactly! When you look at a cake recipe, the ingredient list doesn't include heat from the oven. It's in the instructions on how to make it! :roll:

Just for the record, though... [/not a scientist]


(Not really a scientist either - or not that kind anyway, but) I agree - and so I think strictly the comic shouldn't have included 'time' either. Though I suppose it was necessary for the joke.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Spoe » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:25 pm UTC

Wouldn't "Energy, Time" be more accurate? Hydrogen certainly doesn't work, under current theory, since there wasn't any until the universe was about 10^−6 seconds old. Before that baryons (or any hadrons, for that matter) didn't exist, thus no hydrogen.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby chrisk » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:49 pm UTC

Kaden wrote:
Someguy945 wrote:Why is any of this an issue? Does the ingredients section for a candy bar say "Electricity" anywhere on it?


My thoughts exactly! When you look at a cake recipe, the ingredient list doesn't include heat from the oven. It's in the instructions on how to make it! :roll:

Just for the record, though... [/not a scientist]


No, but neither is 'time' the sort of thing that appears on ingredients lists of other content labels. By saying that those 'work for any grocery or non-grocery', (thus referencing the considerable amount of time it takes to create other elements from hydrogen,) I think he's opening the door for us to chat about what other concepts are required.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby San Fran Sam » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:50 pm UTC

Max™ wrote:
Splarka wrote:Up quarks, down quarks, electrons. Time is an illusion of observation.

Time is a direction, the appearance of time passing may seem like an illusion, but only because we are not used to thinking of it as a direction we travel along.


Time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin' into the future....

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Millumi » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:50 pm UTC

Perfect!
*sticks the label on antimatter*
Omnia vincit veritas.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby bmonk » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:12 pm UTC

StCredZero wrote:How about a new set of lyrics for "Scarborough Fair?"

"Parsley, sage, is hydrogen and thyme!"

Rosemary gave sage advice for making parsley from sufficient Hydrogen and time?
Having become a Wizard on n.p. 2183, the Yellow Piggy retroactively appointed his honorable self a Temporal Wizardly Piggy on n.p.1488, not to be effective until n.p. 2183, thereby avoiding a partial temporal paradox. Since he couldn't afford two philosophical PhDs to rule on the title.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby mcdigman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:52 pm UTC

werty22 wrote:now that's how you make an apple pie from scratch


Are you saying Randall was ninja'd by Carl Sagan?

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Tobu » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:43 pm UTC

This reminds me of SpaceChem. Once you have access to fusion, Hydrogen + time can be a convenient way to build molecules.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby watergrinder » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:46 pm UTC

Probably should be "naturally flavored quarks"

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby kriskra » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:31 pm UTC

:( I am so disappointed with this comic, that I had to register to the forum... :wink:

After I saw the title I realy, realy expected:

The Universal Label
Ingredients:
Stardust

Shorter and correct aswell. What if you would be allergic to stardust and it is not part of the ingredients list? :oops: :mrgreen:

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby mcandre » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:34 pm UTC

When you account for virtual particles...

Ingredients: Time

Or as Feynman said,

There exists only a single electron in the universe, propagating through space and time in such a way as to appear in many places simultaneously.

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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby SerMufasa » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:39 pm UTC

Spoe wrote:Wouldn't "Energy, Time" be more accurate? Hydrogen certainly doesn't work, under current theory, since there wasn't any until the universe was about 10^−6 seconds old. Before that baryons (or any hadrons, for that matter) didn't exist, thus no hydrogen.


No, because the label didn't exist yet - its ingredient list is hydrogen, time.
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Re: 1123: "The Universal Label"

Postby Max™ » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:21 am UTC

Additionally, if you just have energy without a way to bias the production of matter over antimatter, you're just going to get a bath of gamma radiation.

It's not as simple as "just get a lot of energy and it will turn into matter", there was something in the early universe which produced that imbalance which was actually responsible for us being here at all.
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