Stimulants

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Fire Brns
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Re: Stimulants

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:50 pm UTC

Spoiler:
idobox wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:
HungryHobo wrote:
Fire Brns wrote: Oh wow, death penalty, a bit far but that's China for you. Good to know.

They killed children and poisoned thousands for the sake of increasing their profit margins.

if they were geuniunely insane mass murderers then you could defend them on the basis that they weren't sane and rational enough to be culpable. But these were well off sane and rational people who made a choice to poison people to increase profit margins.
Pasteurized milk is boiled until it turns blue and the nutritional value is destroyed. They pour ridiculous amounts of ground calcium rock into it to get it white enough to sell. They also have to skim all the destroyed fat off the surface so it doesn't rot either. It just happened that they made the wrong decision. Death penalty for manslaughter is a bit much.

That's not what they did. They mixed the milk with water and added melamine, a toxic compound, so that it would appear to have the same protein content as normal milk.
They mixed poison to milk so that no one would notice they were selling watered down milk. It is like people mixing anti-freeze with vodka, they poison people to make money, and to make any significant amount of money, they need to poison A LOT of people.

Your rant on pasteurized milk, by the way, is bullshit. Milk is most often sterilized at ultra-high temperature, which is different from pasteurisation, in that it denatures less the proteins. The proteins are still there, so the nutritional value is intact, although the taste is changed. And where did you get the idea it turns blue?

I stand corrected on the poisoning. And I cannot remember where I heard about milk being blue so thank you for correcting me on that as well. I will have to do more research.
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HungryHobo
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Re: Stimulants

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:57 am UTC

Fire Brns wrote:If you know where the crops are grown or what the mineral absorbancy of the plant is you can make educated guesses. With the potatoes I know roughly what the soil composition in the area is and that the plant already contains natural neurotoxins. The best example for soil composition is this: buying tobacco from Virginia is guaranteed to have high levels of uranium in it than buying it elsewhere because tobacco is very good at absorbing uranium and Virginian soil is more rich in said metal. There are known upper limits to toxic elements in products just like eating fish is sure to introduce high levels of mercury into your body.

So... none?

but you've reasoned that assuming everything you've been told about their origin is true that you can guess what's in them. that's some sound comprehensive testing right there.
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Fire Brns
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Re: Stimulants

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:15 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:but you've reasoned that assuming everything you've been told about their origin is true that you can guess what's in them. that's some sound comprehensive testing right there.

Hardly, to some extent unless I drive/fly/swim to the farm I can hardly prove that the food is grown there so I have to trust that. However the soil content and nutritional values are all scientifically measured and the information is easy to find.

P.S. I think I backtracked in my the person who told me the milk thing. And I subsequently found out how they found it out and the method was highly convoluted combination of unrelated things. That shows that improper memory can screw things up so I will concede my point to an extent for now.
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addams
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Re: Stimulants

Postby addams » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:12 am UTC

Milk is blue, sometimes. Blueish.
Yep. Another one of those weird things.

I lived and worked on a Dairy Farm.
The milk went from cow to very cold storage to our table.

The fatty milk was white sometime a little yellowish.
The skimmed milk was blueish.
Nothing wrong with it. Without the fat it reflects the light differently.

Pasteurized and Homogenized milk are such good ideas.
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ctdonath
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Re: Stimulants

Postby ctdonath » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:03 pm UTC

A rather controversial article (a year or so ago) opined that the thing about caffeine isn't so much that it picks you up, it's that over time it lowers your normal energy level, requiring a dose to bring you back up to "normal".

Ah, here it is: http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v35/n ... 1071a.html
Punchline of abstract: "With frequent consumption, substantial tolerance develops to the anxiogenic effect of caffeine, even in genetically susceptible individuals, but no net benefit for alertness is gained, as caffeine abstinence reduces alertness and consumption merely returns it to baseline."

A lot of people reeeeeeealllllly didn't like this. I recall quite a lot of consternation on the web for a few days after its release.

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XTCamus
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Re: Stimulants

Postby XTCamus » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:46 am UTC

True or not that caffeine 'eye-opener' certainly smacks of the truth, doesn't it? That's probably the real reason people don't like it. Just think, what if all of our favorite drugs, including mental health medicines, "work" basically the same way? (Don't worry, it's probably not true.) More on topic: Monday I am finally going to ask my doctor to treat my ADHD with stimulants.

fifiste
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Re: Stimulants

Postby fifiste » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:02 am UTC

Does not sound suprising result at all. Seems to follow the pattern of many drugs.
What also seems to follow the pattern is the outrage of junkies when their favorite drug is being "dissed".
One thing about stimulants I have noticed that if I (seldom) drink Monster energy drinks I get horny as hell.
Is it something that caffeine or other known ingredients have known to directly do or is it more like a reaction from my brain that : "Hey look now you got this big load of energy I wonder what would be a really good way to spend it on!" or "Well we see you seem to be exited, lets give you a thing or two to be excited about :P !"
My relation to coffee and caffeine is abstinence from most of the year then 4 times a year or so I decide "Whew I'm really too tired. I have heard that some coffe could help."
Then I'm on a week long binge. Then it loses its effect and I quit again for several months. The first dose of coffee/energy drink after months though kicks like a mule, usually then I'm unable to do anything productive as I'm shaking like a blender.

andrewlb
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Re: Stimulants

Postby andrewlb » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:54 am UTC

@MarkSmash/@ctdonath/@Nylonathatep

From what I understand of Nicotine it is just a weaker caffeine, although nicotine combined with caffeine cuts caffeine's half-life, which is definitely noteworthy

The issue of if sustained use of caffeine ends up not providing any extra energy is an interesting one. I think it is easy to agree that if you are heavily abusing large amounts of caffeine over a long period of time that it marginalizes to a decent extent and possibly backslides because of the withdrawal issues (using caffeine to just get back to "normal"). Unfortunately my life situation isn't stable enough that I can test going cold turkey of caffeine (I have a lot of time sensitive work to get done), otherwise I would probably experiment further. From what I have read of various people going off, as well as friends however, it would seem that most who cut it out, cut it out almost completely and only occasionally use it for a boost. Based on my current use (around 400 mg a day, an hour of exercise every day, 8 hours of sleep) I do feel like caffeine is supplying me with an extra "boost" but that could just be my brain/body deceiving me.

Mark as you said I definitely agree with the fact that a lot of my current "energy/motivation" (there has been a large recent boost) mostly has to do with the fact that I recently started sleeping and exercising on a pretty strict schedule. Doesn't help that I'm excited about what I'm working on either.

Has anyone been on a healthy schedule with regular caffeine intake, then cut it out all together?

fifiste
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Re: Stimulants

Postby fifiste » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:55 am UTC

I don't know what would the healthy schedule of caffeine intake be.
The week or so long "binges" mentioned in my previous post will mean a cup or cup and a half a day. When I then quit I can have a day or two of lowered energy and maybe a mild headache. Sometimes neither.

elasto
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Re: Stimulants

Postby elasto » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:48 am UTC

andrewlb wrote:Has anyone been on a healthy schedule with regular caffeine intake, then cut it out all together?

I gave up caffeine about eight years ago having drunk coke, tea and coffee in fairly large amounts since a child.

The first two days were an absolute nightmare. Think of the brain fog before your morning cup but x10 and lasting for 48 hours. The third day was sub-par mentally but bearable. I succumbed a couple of times subsequent to that but always had a final coffee on Friday morning and let the withdrawal hit over the weekend. At the time I was a programmer team lead who also took helpdesk calls and the caffeine withdrawal left me like a semi-moron, so I never gave up during weekdays again. After the third day it was fine though.

I would totally agree with the studies that report that the high of caffeine is merely it alleviating its own withdrawal symptoms. And giving up achieved exactly what I wanted it to: It stopped the roller-coaster of energy levels I was experiencing - lows before the first coffee then lows again in the afternoons. It even had the bonus of better sleep meaning shorter sleep meaning more free personal time. When I'm on caffeine, even if I avoid it in the evenings, I want 8+ hours in bed. When I give up both caffeine and high GI foods, I typically only sleep 4.5 to 6 hours and I feel more refreshed when I awake than the 8 hours previously. A very common regime for me these days is I sleep at about 10pm when the kids do, and I'm awake sometime after 3am to get in 4+ hours of coding before I have to wake the kids for school around 8am.

Another thing that was totally unexpected was that, although the physical symptoms subsided relatively quickly as I say, psychologically it was a lot harder. I honestly felt quite a profound sense of loss for the first month or two after giving up. For, though I had successfully stopped the cycle of lows, I stopped the cycle of highs too. And I genuinely missed that. Not highs in terms of energy; I guess it would be the daily dopamine high of my brain rewarding me for alleviating the withdrawal.

On the occasions I've drunk caffeine since (typically a coke because I miss sugar much more than caffeine!) I don't get any kind of useful energy boost. It feels more like a flywheel spinning in my head - but a flywheel unattached to anything - like revving a car but without the clutch engaged.

Since giving up all those years ago, I've never spent more than a couple of weeks in a row on caffeine, and I've never had the same profound sense of loss on giving up I had that first time around. I'd never willingly choose a caffeinated drink if an equivalent decaffeinated one was available, and most likely never will again.

(Giving up high GI sugars on the other hand - now that's a battle and a half for sure!)

fifiste
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Re: Stimulants

Postby fifiste » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:05 pm UTC

Mhm the "high" is still high even if it just the cancellation of low. you still enjoy it. Feel rewarded and you are going to miss it.

Had some of these feeling when I quit smoking, as I have heard the nicotine though works even more directly on your reward pathways and is therefore more insidious. It is funny you actually feel a sense of "accomplishment" after a nice fag. Can't describe it any other way otherwise it is not something euphoric or plesurable - just the you feel a bit "rewarded".

Good boy.

elasto
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Re: Stimulants

Postby elasto » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:34 pm UTC

fifiste wrote:Good boy.

Haha that's it exactly! It's like the brain giving you a little pat on the head. I honestly felt like life became a little more... empty... hollow... that first couple of months. Quite hard to put into words, but I guess any ex-smoker could easily relate. Probably any ex-heavy-drinker too.

(God knows how I'd cope giving up any kind of serious addiction... I suspect I have an addictive personality in any case. Was a hard-core gambler at one point. That was also very hard to kick physically and psychologically - much more so than caffeine.)
Last edited by elasto on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:38 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

HungryHobo
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Re: Stimulants

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:36 pm UTC

currently a few weeks into seriously cutting down on caffine and suggery drinks too.

first week was damned hard.
3 weeks in I'm not getting the urge to drink coke or red bull whenever I walk past a shop any more.

My GF is trying to cut back the soft drinks too. funny side effect.

we've been letting outselves have some mixed with wine while hanging out with friends.

the other week at the supermarket:

her: "I'm a bit worried, I don't know why but I've been getting the urge to drink wine lately, alcoholism setting in?"
Me: "Well we've been drinking it with 7up and that's the only time we're drinking 7up, if I offered you a 7up and a bottle of wine right now, which would you want"
her: after a moment of thought "7up, definitely the 7up"
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Re: Stimulants

Postby elasto » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm UTC

When giving up sugars (and I mean seriously giving up - as in Atkins levels of carb intake) I get a major headache for the first 24 hours or so, and I rarely get headaches at all. Aspirin doesn't help, but, strangely, getting slightly drunk does. I sip a dry red wine to stay slightly buzzed - along with plenty of water so the wine doesn't give me a headache - and I can transition to carb-free relatively painlessly.

Psychologically it's next to impossible to stay off carbs for any extended period of time though, regardless of the fact I feel soo much healthier while off them. I can definitely relate to your girlfriend!

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idobox
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Re: Stimulants

Postby idobox » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:46 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:currently a few weeks into seriously cutting down on caffine and suggery drinks too.

first week was damned hard.
3 weeks in I'm not getting the urge to drink coke or red bull whenever I walk past a shop any more.

My GF is trying to cut back the soft drinks too. funny side effect.

we've been letting outselves have some mixed with wine while hanging out with friends.

the other week at the supermarket:

her: "I'm a bit worried, I don't know why but I've been getting the urge to drink wine lately, alcoholism setting in?"
Me: "Well we've been drinking it with 7up and that's the only time we're drinking 7up, if I offered you a 7up and a bottle of wine right now, which would you want"
her: after a moment of thought "7up, definitely the 7up"

You mix wine and soft drinks? the horror!
If you like wine, why do you put soft drinks in it? if you don't like wine, why do you put it in your soft drink?
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fifiste
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Re: Stimulants

Postby fifiste » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:09 pm UTC

Yeah I kind cringed myself too seeing this :D. And I don't even fancy wine.
Though it reminded me some of my childhood, when being a penniless little rats the cost friendliest way to get alcohol was to buy such "wines" that would actually be strongly improved by such treatment.
I laughed how several years ago one of those "brands" was forbidden to sell itself under the name "wine" anymore :D. I bought a bottle a year or so ago to remember old times - god it really was horrible. The wonders of underage drinking :D.
I do hope they mix their soda with such "wines".

Derek
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Re: Stimulants

Postby Derek » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:55 pm UTC

idobox wrote:You mix wine and soft drinks? the horror!
If you like wine, why do you put soft drinks in it? if you don't like wine, why do you put it in your soft drink?

Well sparkling wines are a thing. Maybe it's a cheap substitute?

andrewlb
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Re: Stimulants

Postby andrewlb » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:42 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
andrewlb wrote:Has anyone been on a healthy schedule with regular caffeine intake, then cut it out all together?

I gave up caffeine about eight years ago having drunk coke, tea and coffee in fairly large amounts since a child.

*snip*


How do your most motivated moments/highs feel now compared to when you were drinking coffee?

My most noticeable withdrawal symptom is definitely the "fog"/lack of general motivation. If I miss a day or two without coffee nothing drastic really happens to me, but I find that going off for a week definitely alters my motivation/thinking. I'll check out the GI diets, 6 hours of sleep sounds marvelous :)

elasto
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Re: Stimulants

Postby elasto » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:44 am UTC

andrewlb wrote:How do your most motivated moments/highs feel now compared to when you were drinking coffee?

My most noticeable withdrawal symptom is definitely the "fog"/lack of general motivation. If I miss a day or two without coffee nothing drastic really happens to me, but I find that going off for a week definitely alters my motivation/thinking.

Have no reason to think my overall motivation is any better or worse now than before. I definitely get just as big a high from some particular code working sweetly or whatever.

Stress tends to demotivate me though; I tend to procrastinate most at the times I can least afford to; I have every reason to believe that, if anything, caffeine would have a slight negative effect on me therefore. Some people thrive under stress and high energy situations though and it's possible you're more that type. Relaxation is a must for me, but it might be your kryptonite ^_^

For me, I thrive in situations like today: Up at 4am; All alone; Everyone asleep; Three hours of solid coding before the first kid even stirs.

(Why do kids always wake earlier on a weekend...!)

---

There are other things I have found very helpful for relaxation/alertness/motivation/productivity: High EPA fish oil; Piperine; Piracetam; Aniracetam etc. and perhaps the thread could evolve to discuss some of them. But, on caffeine, I definitely found giving it up an overall plus. YMMV!

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idobox
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Re: Stimulants

Postby idobox » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:34 pm UTC

fifiste wrote:Though it reminded me some of my childhood, when being a penniless little rats the cost friendliest way to get alcohol was to buy such "wines" that would actually be strongly improved by such treatment.

That's what sangria was invented for, to make to cheap ass wine drinkable, and nice wine better.
Derek wrote:Well sparkling wines are a thing. Maybe it's a cheap substitute?

I once tried a Californian sparkling cherry wine, and I don't get why people would put that voluntarily in their mouth, even less pay for it.

But I guess it's cultural thing. I mean, I was raised in a country where drinkable wine is not much more expensive than coca cola, and is considered a delicacy. To me, soda in wine is a bit like a caviar with ketchup.
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MarkSmash
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Re: Stimulants

Postby MarkSmash » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:10 am UTC

andrewlb wrote:@MarkSmash/@ctdonath/@Nylonathatep
Mark as you said I definitely agree with the fact that a lot of my current "energy/motivation" (there has been a large recent boost) mostly has to do with the fact that I recently started sleeping and exercising on a pretty strict schedule. Doesn't help that I'm excited about what I'm working on either.

Has anyone been on a healthy schedule with regular caffeine intake, then cut it out all together?


Actually, I'm experimenting with both now. My company's vacation year-end is March 31 so I got three unexpected days off: March 13, 14 and 15. With no plan, I've managed to waste the lion's share of that time watching television: The whole second season of Game of Thrones and the whole season of the cancelled series Defying Gravity. Compounding this lethargy is a sudden swing in the weather in Calgary, from 10 degrees Celsius and sunny to minus 10 degrees, cold and snowy. Without a plan and with access to food and decent television, my motivation and ability to focus is completely shot.

Effective March 8, I have stopped drinking coffee and I have found that there has been no headaches or cravings.

andrewlb
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Re: Stimulants

Postby andrewlb » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

Well let us know if your energy/motivation picks back up ;)

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Plasmic-Turtle
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Re: Stimulants

Postby Plasmic-Turtle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:39 am UTC

People who are giving up caffeine! I want to join that group.

I've drunken caffeine in various forms since I was about 16 or so (so, for about a decade). It began as instant coffee with milk and sugar, moved to instant coffee without milk or sugar, progressed up to plunger coffee, and now has moved on to home-machine coffee. (There were lots of V and red-bull cans in the weeks leading to my thesis hand-in, and a glass or two of coke a day when I had a job at Subway and staff had free access to the fizzy drink, but besides that coffee's been the main form).

I never noticed any issues with withdrawal until the last year or so. Even though I really didn't think I was consuming much coke at my Subway job, I started to notice that if I didn't have any on a shift I'd feel tired and out of it and useless. I tried to give it a miss and found myself being considerably more physically clumsy amongst other things. I can't remember whether it was back then with the coke that I got my first headache from withdrawal, or whether that was since I moved in to the house with the coffee machine. I have one coffee per morning from the home coffee machine. I don't have it in the evenings because I'll have trouble getting to sleep. If I have my morning coffee then I won't have any coffee for the rest of the day, though I may have a number of cups of tea.

A few months ago I started to notice that if I accidentally missed my morning coffee (or we'd run out, or I deliberately didn't have one, or I didn't have time for one), then within the next 6-24 hrs I would get a HORRIBLE piercing headache. Horrible. I'm someone who generally very rarely gets headaches, too, even when I'm sick, so it was a bit of a shock to the system. It made me angry at this evil drug that possessed my body like that and gave me withdrawals, so I've tried a couple of times to quit, but then caved due to missing the taste or smell, or just feeling so super-tired and useless in the morning that I couldn't imagine how I'd get through the day without it. Not to de-rail the thread (you can even PM me!) but I'd be super-interested to hear stories from those who've given up caffeine, even just for periods of a month or so. Does getting up in the morning and starting work go back to something that feels as OK (or better?) than when you were on caffeine? And if so how long does it take? What positives/negatives were there with quitting?

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Re: Stimulants

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:59 pm UTC

Plasmic-Turtle wrote:A few months ago I started to notice that if I accidentally missed my morning coffee (or we'd run out, or I deliberately didn't have one, or I didn't have time for one), then within the next 6-24 hrs I would get a HORRIBLE piercing headache.


Most headache tablets have loads of caffine in them because of this, many headaches are simply caffine withdrawal.
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MarkSmash
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Re: Stimulants

Postby MarkSmash » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:12 pm UTC

Plasmic-Turtle wrote:People who are giving up caffeine! I want to join that group.

I've drunken caffeine in various forms since I was about 16 or so (so, for about a decade). It began as instant coffee with milk and sugar, moved to instant coffee without milk or sugar, progressed up to plunger coffee, and now has moved on to home-machine coffee. (There were lots of V and red-bull cans in the weeks leading to my thesis hand-in, and a glass or two of coke a day when I had a job at Subway and staff had free access to the fizzy drink, but besides that coffee's been the main form).

I never noticed any issues with withdrawal until the last year or so. Even though I really didn't think I was consuming much coke at my Subway job, I started to notice that if I didn't have any on a shift I'd feel tired and out of it and useless. I tried to give it a miss and found myself being considerably more physically clumsy amongst other things. I can't remember whether it was back then with the coke that I got my first headache from withdrawal, or whether that was since I moved in to the house with the coffee machine. I have one coffee per morning from the home coffee machine. I don't have it in the evenings because I'll have trouble getting to sleep. If I have my morning coffee then I won't have any coffee for the rest of the day, though I may have a number of cups of tea.

A few months ago I started to notice that if I accidentally missed my morning coffee (or we'd run out, or I deliberately didn't have one, or I didn't have time for one), then within the next 6-24 hrs I would get a HORRIBLE piercing headache. Horrible. I'm someone who generally very rarely gets headaches, too, even when I'm sick, so it was a bit of a shock to the system. It made me angry at this evil drug that possessed my body like that and gave me withdrawals, so I've tried a couple of times to quit, but then caved due to missing the taste or smell, or just feeling so super-tired and useless in the morning that I couldn't imagine how I'd get through the day without it. Not to de-rail the thread (you can even PM me!) but I'd be super-interested to hear stories from those who've given up caffeine, even just for periods of a month or so. Does getting up in the morning and starting work go back to something that feels as OK (or better?) than when you were on caffeine? And if so how long does it take? What positives/negatives were there with quitting?


Any drug works because it replicates a chemical already produced in the brain. When you regularly consume the drug, the faculty producing the chemical shuts down. If you quit 'cold turkey', the withdrawl effects are caused because the chemical is not available. Thus, I would recommend an incremental approach:

1. Map your current consumption for a week, making special note of the size and additives.

2. Week 1-2: maintain consumption, but start reducing the amount of additives (cream and sugar) so that you wean yourself off of the sugar high as well as making the coffee as bad tasting as possible.

3. Week 3-4: start reducing the size of coffees you drink from large to medium, from medium to small. Also, take a longer time to drink the coffee to maximize the amount of time of caffeine absorption. Given that the taste has gone from good to horrific, that shouldn't be a problem.

4. Week 5-6: start eliminating 20% of your coffees from your schedule until you're down to 1 per week. If necessary, replace with a caffeine-free hot drink. By this time, your body should have taken up the slack in producing caffeine itself. Studiously avoid replacing coffee with colas or teas.

Anyone have any improvements to this strategy?

5. Week 6+: embrace your caffeine free lifestyle.

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Re: Stimulants

Postby Byrel » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:15 pm UTC

MarkSmash wrote:Any drug works because it replicates a chemical already produced in the brain. When you regularly consume the drug, the faculty producing the chemical shuts down. If you quit 'cold turkey', the withdrawl effects are caused because the chemical is not available. Thus, I would recommend an incremental approach:


While I expect that would work without incident, I find it quite hard to commit to a slow deprivation of caffiene. Better to slog through a weekend of headaches, a week of laconicism, and then enjoy my caffeine-free life. Till I want a few caffeine highs again, a month later. (Drugs with almost no health side effects and short withdrawal times are terribly fun!)

One side-effect of quitting caffiene can be dehydration; a significant portion of your water intake can be through caffeinated beverages, and for me, the lack of that water is often a big part of the headaches the first few days. If you just take plenty of water, I find the withdrawal to be ignorable for a simple cold turkey cut.

fifiste
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Re: Stimulants

Postby fifiste » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:22 am UTC

I don't think you'd find dehydration a problem. Probably even quite opposite as caffeine is a diuretic. So you'd drink less caffeinated stuff, pee way less, and actually need less liquid to drink to stay hydrated.

edit: ok my fail after some google it seems that for habitual caffeine users the diuretic effect subsides and then even vanishes over time. So you might need to add some other liquids as replacement if you are a long-time chronic coffee drinker.

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Re: Stimulants

Postby idobox » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:47 pm UTC

MarkSmash wrote:2. Week 1-2: maintain consumption, but start reducing the amount of additives (cream and sugar) so that you wean yourself off of the sugar high as well as making the coffee as bad tasting as possible.

I'd like to point out that I always drink my coffee strong and without milk, cream, sugar, cinnamon or whatever because I actually like the taste of coffee. Are you by any chance thinking of Starbucks style coffee when you refer to coffee?
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Re: Stimulants

Postby eternauta3k » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

Coffee without milk? Heresy!
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Re: Stimulants

Postby MarkSmash » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:21 pm UTC

idobox wrote:
MarkSmash wrote:2. Week 1-2: maintain consumption, but start reducing the amount of additives (cream and sugar) so that you wean yourself off of the sugar high as well as making the coffee as bad tasting as possible.

I'd like to point out that I always drink my coffee strong and without milk, cream, sugar, cinnamon or whatever because I actually like the taste of coffee. Are you by any chance thinking of Starbucks style coffee when you refer to coffee?


Being from Canada, I am a double-double man -- 2 cream, 2 sugars. Again, I drink this coffee as a charge up, not for flavor. I realize that the charge I get out of it is a double whammy: sugar plus caffeine. If you're going off coffee, you need to deal with each of these separately, hence the strategy.

With respect to a weekend coffee, I enjoy a home brewed espresso that only gets sweetenend up if I over-tamp.

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Re: Stimulants

Postby MarkSmash » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:33 pm UTC

Byrel wrote:Till I want a few caffeine highs again, a month later. (Drugs with almost no health side effects and short withdrawal times are terribly fun!)


I totally agree. The benefits are twofold:

1. Your attention span off coffee will return to the same net-normal attention span as if you were a regular coffee drinker.

2. You now have a new drug to experiment with: coffee! I've noticed if I've been off coffee for a month and then have a cup or two while working on a project, I seem to attain higher-than-normal creativity, focus and visualization. This is further enhanced by:

a. Psyching myself up that I'm having a COFFEE. When I pour it, I say to myself and those around me, "Gentlemen, start your engines!"

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Re: Stimulants

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:36 pm UTC

ctdonath wrote:A rather controversial article (a year or so ago) opined that the thing about caffeine isn't so much that it picks you up, it's that over time it lowers your normal energy level, requiring a dose to bring you back up to "normal".

Ah, here it is: http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v35/n ... 1071a.html
Punchline of abstract: "With frequent consumption, substantial tolerance develops to the anxiogenic effect of caffeine, even in genetically susceptible individuals, but no net benefit for alertness is gained, as caffeine abstinence reduces alertness and consumption merely returns it to baseline."

A lot of people reeeeeeealllllly didn't like this. I recall quite a lot of consternation on the web for a few days after its release.


Yeah, I didn't get why it was such a big deal. It just seemed like "yeah, that makes sense". Everyone should realize that caffiene doesn't ACTUALLY mean you can just skip sleeping with no ill effects or the like. A crash always comes sooner or later.

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Re: Stimulants

Postby elasto » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:45 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Yeah, I didn't get why it was such a big deal. It just seemed like "yeah, that makes sense".

Yeah.

Everyone should realize that caffiene doesn't ACTUALLY mean you can just skip sleeping with no ill effects or the like. A crash always comes sooner or later.

OTOH, there are drugs with much more that kind of effect, like Modafinil. They don't stop you sleeping if you choose to, but they stop you feeling tired if you don't. (Obviously limits still remain...)

I've only taken Modafinil twice, but I've been impressed each time. I sleep short enough as it is, though, I wouldn't like to regularly sleep less!

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Re: Stimulants

Postby MarkSmash » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:44 pm UTC

elasto wrote:I've only taken Modafinil twice, but I've been impressed each time. I sleep short enough as it is, though, I wouldn't like to regularly sleep less!


I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience with this. I know that there are days where I've gotten plenty of rest, am well-fed and exercised yet feel dopey as fuck. What regimen were you on when you took it? I'd think I'd try the following:

6:00 am wake up, shower eat, get ready.

7:00 am 7:30 am Evaluate general level of dopiness (there's an app for that!). If dopiness seems high, take dose of Modafinil. If alertness seems good, take nothing.

8:00 am - Noon Do work.

Noon - 12:30 pm Eat lunch

12:30 pm - 1:00 pm Evaluate dopiness. If high and if not taken already, take dose of Modafinil. If high and taken already, take nap. If alertness seems good, take nothing.

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Re: Stimulants

Postby elasto » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:09 am UTC

MarkSmash wrote:
elasto wrote:I've only taken Modafinil twice, but I've been impressed each time. I sleep short enough as it is, though, I wouldn't like to regularly sleep less!


I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience with this. I know that there are days where I've gotten plenty of rest, am well-fed and exercised yet feel dopey as fuck. What regimen were you on when you took it?

My experiences were very mundane - like I say, I only took it twice.

The first time was a normal work day and I wanted to watch a cricket match through the night. I took I think 200mg at about 2am. I found the experience weird in how non-weird it was. I was basically normally alert - no high or noteworthy effect of any kind - except I felt absolutely no tiredness. At 6am I felt like I normally would at 10am after a full night's sleep.

I got a bit bored of the game and, despite not being tired, decided to see if I could still sleep. I fell asleep easily, slept for about 90 mins, and went to work that day as normal. Again, no tiredness that day - and I certainly would normally have felt really tired having had less than 2 hours sleep.

Can't remember the details of the other time I took it - I needed to work late into the night on some project, and the Modafinil helped me to do so just fine.

Two reasons I don't take it regularly (despite having a bottle-full on my shelf!): One is I have high blood pressure and it does reportedly raise it. And the second is I have just not had the need.

I suggest you go onto Google - there are tons of websites dedicated to people reporting their subjective experiences of everything from legal substances to prescription to illegal. I found out about Piracetam and related compounds there: Legal, no high, but a marked improvement in mental clarity - for some at least. My analysis after reading tons of experiences is that the healthier a lifestyle you lead the less of an effect they have. I was very unhealthy in the past and I found the experience literally mind-blowing. I am much healthier now and the experience is almost nondescript. So YMMV hugely also.

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Re: Stimulants

Postby MarkSmash » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:00 pm UTC

Fair enough. I'm not sure if any pharmaceutical will prevent people from having dopey days.

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Re: Stimulants

Postby idobox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:07 pm UTC

eternauta3k wrote:Coffee without milk? Heresy!

It is not given to everybody to contemplate the naked beauty of pure black coffee. The unworthy often decide to alter what is perfect for their feeble character cannot withstand nor comprehend it, like a man who prefers shadow because he hasn't the strength to look at the sun.
If you want to start a religious war, do it properly :D
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Re: Stimulants

Postby eternauta3k » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:35 pm UTC

I like my coffee the way I like my science: er... not pure.

Besides, for dick-measuring purposes I can tell foreigners that I drink unsweetened mate.
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Re: Stimulants

Postby Wednesday » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:30 am UTC

To respond to the op, as a quick skim through previous posts doesn't reveal any Adderall-takers:

I've been diagnosed with ADHD and am prescribed 40mg Adderall XR to be taken once in the morning, and 20mg Adderall IR to be taken between 3 and 6 pm. I'm prescribed the duo because I apparently metabolize even extended release Adderall much faster than normal, particularly for a woman of my size (5'3", 125lbs.)

In terms of experiences with the stimulant, the first day I took what was then a prescribed 15mg XR pill in the morning I felt noticeable intoxication, in that I finally felt like I was able to utilize the as yet un-worked most-of-my-brain. I'm what I hope is fairly intelligent, but I'm very scatterbrained, struggle with hyperfocus or lack of focus depending on task or subject material, easily distracted from a task and then have difficulty remembering what I was doing/talking about; essentially, lots of symptoms from all three "types" of ADHD. The first day I took the Adderall, however, I could tune into whatever task I wanted, for however long I wanted, and I was able to think at what I can only describe as full-speed. This effect was accompanied by slight jitters, complete and total loss of appetite (which at the time was very significant, I weighed an additional 40lbs back then and ate significantly more than I do now) and an unwillingness to relax or stop verbalizing my thoughts.

The second day, all but one negative side effect disappeared completely. My brain worked at full speed and it felt absolutely natural. The appetite loss, however, continued into the fourth or fifth month I took this dose. This could have been exacerbated by the buproprion, also known to reduce appetite, I was and am taking. I essentially continued in this pattern for many months until I developed a tolerance to the drug, as will happen when taken daily. My psychiatrist increased the dosage, and we were back to "day two" standard effects. I realized about a month after this that I ran out of brain sometime around 3pm, having taken my dose between 8-10am, and so I was prescribed 10mg (15?) to take around the time I started feeling distractable, so that I could focus on homework after getting home from work.

As before, those dosages became a bit weak, and we've since increased or maintained miscellaneous medicines in order to find a sustainable balance. We're still working on it.

I have what I have been told is an "addictive" personality, having self-harmed in the past, though I managed to kick that without the benefit of therapy, so who knows. I smoke socially and have completely failed to become addicted to cigarettes, Adderall, or caffeine, despite my live-in-boyfriend having the most serious case of Diet Mountain Dew addiction ever heard of.

If you get anything out of this post, it should be that my body responds non-typically to amphetamine salts (and, really, every other over-the-counter, prescribed or hallucinogenic drug I've ever taken outside of alcohol) and you should probably not assume anything based on my experiences with it.

I should note that I'm writing this near 11pm after a workday and having not taken Adderall for a few days, in an attempt to stymie the tolerance-building, and as such this post is probably not that well written or coherent.
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