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Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:19 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
I think that everyone here will agree that it is wrong, but why is it wrong?

P.S. I am putting this here because we do not have a philosophy section.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:01 pm UTC
by Zohar
Can you really not think of a few reasons yourself?

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:24 pm UTC
by Mutex
Because it encourages gambling.

Also it's a waste of perfectly good dogs that could be used for fox hunting.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:26 pm UTC
by ahammel
Utilitarian (classical) wrote:Dogs can suffer, and therefore their suffering ought to be minimized, therefore it's wrong to torture them.

Utilitarian (Peter Singer style) wrote:Because dogs are rational enough to have preferences, they prefer not to be tortured, and the moral course of action is the one that maximizes the extent to which rational creatures can satisfy their preferences.

Deontologist (Kantian) wrote:Because dogs are rational enough that they ought to be treated as ends in themselves. By torturing them for fun, you treat them as a means to an end.

Deontologist (Rawlsian) wrote:Because if two rational actors were to come to an agreement on how dogs are to be treated without knowing whether they represented the Dogs' Guild or the Dogfighting Afficianados' Union, the agreement would prohibit torturing, and promote petting and cuddling*.

Virtue Ethicist wrote:Because the love of bloodsport is a vice, the indulgence of which is incompatible with human flourishing*.

Objectivist wrote:Because it's not in your best interests. Because you'll go to jail.

Moral Relativist (Cultural) wrote:Because there is a very strong taboo against torturing dogs in this society.

Moral Relativist (Individual) wrote: Because it makes me sad.

Moral Nihilist wrote:Trololololol


* I don't understand this ethical theory all that well, and I'm probably misrepresenting it.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:39 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
Let's have a go, a flawed attempt though it may be.

A dog trained to protect its master and/or its master's intetests may end up suffering for its 'duty', at times, but normally the suffering is for the sake of the whole dog-man 'pack' - from which membership of, the dog enjoys reciprocal benefits, some duty of care. Whether or not the dog understands this, and fully appreciates it, as its ancestral pack-mentality is manipulated by the human (see "service dogs", including Diesel, but with a contentious upper-end to the analogy), only the human handler(s) truly having the capacity to know for what stakes the dog is playing the game, and thusly lies the incumbant responsibilities.

It is analagous (if not identical!) to a military command knowing best to what objective troops are deployed, and the risks they may endure, and knowing that the subordinates may not (perhaps should not, at times) know the full import of their missions, but must trust that they are not being deliberately used for no net benefit.

In dog-fighting, the trust developed may be considered lop-sided. The dog's utility is not repaid by care to prevent needless risks. Their only purpose is to court mortal risks, expendably so, and enter situations of their handler's engineering that need never ever have occured, but for an agreement between rival handlers in a relationship that trumps the previously expected 'our pack' bond. The fate of a winning dog is only to compete again, again and again, until not successful; the fate of an (eventually) unsuccessful dog is rarely a reward of a happy retirement (which may not even be possible for one undefeated, without extreme care and effort). For the dog, there is no wise pack-leader to trust, however much pack-trust they 'feel'.


Counter-arguments to this include that such dogs only live due to their potential to be sent into combat, and a life (however terribly endured in parts) may be considered better than never having a life in the first place (debatable), or an otherwise truncated one (differently debatable). Also that the pack (human plus succession of expendable, and often expended, dogs) may indeed benefit from the deliberate sacrifice of the canine party, by creating a better life for the human party by reputation and earnings1, to advance (or maintain level-ish against a relative expectation of degradement) the standard of living of the revolving-door-pack, over time. Assuming that the betterment/sustenance of the (obviously dedicated and successfully ruthless) human trainer does not correlate with a zero or negative welfare gain on the part of the trainees. Still, even those caveated caveats may well be explored.


I suspect similar arguments surrounding slavery vs servitude vs employment (at various points on their much-overlapping spectra effective benificences from above) are applicable, but I couldn't quote you any chapter or verse from the extensive philosophical masters who have surely already covered every inch of this.

1 This is also where the war-time bomb-dogs theoretically come in to the discussion at a meta-pack level.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:43 am UTC
by Tyndmyr
Why is picking the wings of a fly a dick thing to do?

Unnecessary suffering is sort of an evil thing to try to maximize.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:18 am UTC
by CorruptUser
Dogfighting requires training the dogs. This often involves something known as "bait dogs", dogs that have their mouths taped shut so the other dog can rip it to shreds without getting injured itself. Some of the dog trainers use puppies they get from people giving them away, but the dog trainer needs to feed them until they are large enough to actually be trained on; many rely on dognapping other people's fully grown dogs.

Now if you don't find anything reprehensible in the above paragraph, please, join me in the next topic, "Why is castrating people who don't find dogfighting abhorrent morally wrong?".

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:02 am UTC
by SecondTalon
"Because a castrated dogfight enthusiast can still enjoy dogfights"

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:05 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
CorruptUser, did you read the OP. I do not think you read the OP. You should probably go read the OP.

P.S. Subsitute 'castrating' with 'punishing' and 'don't find dogfighting abhorrent' with 'hold a different belief than me'.
CorruptUser wrote: "Why is punishing people who hold a different belief than me morally wrong?".

It is wrong because enforcing thoughtcrimes violates human rights.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:35 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
jewish_scientist wrote:P.S. Subsitute 'castrating' with 'punishing' and 'don't find dogfighting abhorrent' with 'hold a different belief than me'.


No substitutions

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:20 pm UTC
by Zamfir
Me for him. My coke for gin. You for my mom. At least I get my washing done.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:58 pm UTC
by SDK
jewish_scientist wrote:It is wrong because enforcing thoughtcrimes violates human rights.

If you're allowed to appeal to "human rights" to prove something is morally wrong, then surely I can appeal to "animal rights" and leave it at that, yes?

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:19 pm UTC
by speising
It is morally wrong because it is against the rules which codify our morality.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:38 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
jewish_scientist wrote:CorruptUser, did you read the OP. I do not think you read the OP. You should probably go read the OP.

P.S. Subsitute 'castrating' with 'punishing' and 'don't find dogfighting abhorrent' with 'hold a different belief than me'.
CorruptUser wrote: "Why is punishing people who hold a different belief than me morally wrong?".

It is wrong because enforcing thoughtcrimes violates human rights.

While I doubt CorruptUser was seriously suggesting we actually go out and castrate everyone who doesn't find dogfighting abhorrent, you can't just substitute specifics with generalities and expect important qualities to all be preserved. That's the same false equivalence bullshit that leads to people saying ridiculous things like, "Disliking violent racists is just as bad as being a violent racist."

When "Should we execute people who leave chairs in public parking spaces?" and "Should we fine companies that kill millions of people?" can both be abstracted to "Should we do bad things to bad people?", the abstraction itself might be part of your problem.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:07 pm UTC
by Samik
Tyndmyr wrote:Why is picking the wings of a fly a dick thing to do?

I spent a month this past summer backpacking in Colorado. The black flies there, in some places, are absolutely unreal. Slather yourself in 98% deet all day long - forget about it, they don't even care.

I got incredibly good at killing these things. They approach their landings in certain predictable ways. I would sit and eat lunch, and wind up with piles of 40 or 50 of them on either side of me by the end.

Sometimes I would hit them and only stun them. Then I'd pluck their wings. Not at first - at first I'd just swat them and be done with it. It took me a few weeks of being eaten alive to reach a point of taking some actual satisfaction in their demolition. They're living off of my blood - I'm under no obligation to allow them to do that (and they hardly seem to care, happily dying by the handful just for a chance to leech off me).

After a while, I graduated to legs, and then antenna. Leaving little wriggling larva with no limbs or sensory apparatus. I learned a fair bit about fly anatomy and behavior. While resting, I'd lay and watch them wriggle. I'd poke them in the eyes when they stopped moving. Until finally they stopped reacting to the pokes, and I'd flick them away.

By the end of that month, I saw no good reason to have any empathy whatsoever for black flies.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:21 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
I just want to make something clear about my last post because a lot of people have misinterpreted it. I knew that CorruptUser was not being 100% sincere, so I made my reply very insincere. It was suppose to be a joke that had a little truth at its core.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:30 pm UTC
by SDK
??

You asked him to go back and read the OP since he didn't answer your question. Maybe you can frame what a good answer would actually look like to you?

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:37 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
All I'm reading is "It was a social experiment, bro! Ban me now plz"

There still plenty of time to walk this back. But arguing in bad faith in serious business? That's a paddlin'

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:14 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
SDK wrote:Maybe you can frame what a good answer would actually look like to you?

ahammel's and Soupspoon's answers is what I was expecting, wanted, and to a certain extent needed.

Re: Why is dog fighting morally wrong?

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:19 am UTC
by doogly
Will you ever love them?