Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

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Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby hack124x768 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:02 pm UTC

Seeing as how there are readers here from all over, I should point out this rant is about the USA.

I hear people yabbering about the "Religious right" and "imposing their view on the nation" all the time as pro-democrat arguments. Where the hell do people get these ideas? Can anyone give me examples of how religion has been pushed on the people by the right wing?
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Indon » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:13 pm UTC

Well, I do believe there's a thread on this very forum detailing a speech by one of the republican incumbents for the white house; he rather plainly states he doesn't want a secular nation.

Our esteemed current president (or maybe his father, I'm not sure) has expressed that all Americans have equal rights... except for those who don't believe in a deity. I'm sure an actual atheist would be better at digging up the quote than I.

At least one state constitution (Texas) explicitly omits atheists from civil rights (In the case of Texas, the right to hold public office). The offending text is in the Texas "bill of rights".

A certain right-wing pundit, whose name begins with "A", and ends with "nn Coulter", has consistently associated being non-christian not only with being left-wing, but with being evil, satanic soul-sucking traitors to All That Is Good.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:15 pm UTC

Wait, besides the Dover School board you still need more examples? The State education board of Kansas declaring that creationism was a valid scientific theory didn't give you a clue? How about the Republican party of Texas declaring itself a Christian institution?

I want to marry another guy, GUESS WHAT?
I want to collect embryonic Stem Cells, GUESS WHAT?
I want to buy alcohol on a Sunday, GUESS WHAT?

And that even leaves out third term abortions, sex ed in schools, Christmas as a national frigging holiday, and about 1000 other issues.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby segmentation fault » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:16 pm UTC

the main thing is the debate on same-sex-marriage because of what the bible says about homosexuality. there are some minor things as well such as having to swear on a bible, trying to force "intelligent design" and creationism into schools (which could result in something big), and abstinence only education (which doesnt work).
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:16 pm UTC

Hmm, I can't speak directly for the United States, as I lack citizenship thereof, but...

Laws based around biblical morality (sodomy law, for example)
Faith-based initiatives
Return-fire "atheist!" mudslinging (pro-republican anti-democrat attacks?)
You'll need an American to give you something more accurate.

According to my colleague (I just wanted to say that word) above, George Bush Sr. said something to the effect that he was uncertain, or plainly lacking favor of the idea of atheists being citizens of the united states. The only part of the quote I remember is his reasoning: "This is one nation under god."
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:21 pm UTC

"In God we Trust"
The opening words of all branches of governments
"Under God" in the pledge

Silent night and away in the manger playing in every institution both public and private I enter including worst of all my schools.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:24 pm UTC

I'm currently of two minds as to whether this even belongs in SB, but that aside...

One of the classic examples is how much of the abortion debate is propped up on the idea, presented in the bible, that a child has a "soul" from the moment of conception, and therefore aborting it is murder.

The same can be said for the homosexual marriage debate and the religious motivations thereof. Yes, this is more likely a thin veneer of religion stretched over a bunch of fear-of-the-different, prejudice, and ignorance, but it doesn't change the fact that religion is used to give that viewpoint legitimacy and currency.

Most of the rest of the argument takes place in educational facilities. The push to include the ID "theory" in science textbooks or, in the case of Kansas, to outlaw the teaching of evolution was entirely religiously motivated.

Then there's just the little stuff. "Under God" in the pledge and how upset the religious right got when someone proposed removing it, the Ten Commandments being displayed on government property, and so forth. All the little stuff that everyone claims "isn't a big deal" and totally doesn't have any ulterior motivations, doesn't even matter, why are we even talking about this amiright?

Until such time as one of us evil secular liberals tries to change it, and then everyone freaks the fuck out.

Which leads one to ask, why is that? If it's all so inconsequential, why should anyone care if it's removed? My guess is that it's because all that "little stuff", though quaint and insignificant on its own, combines to create an atmosphere in which christianity is the default and anything else is a tolerated aberration. The religious right likes it that way. Thus, any attempt to change the norm to something more egalitarian is met with a *lot* of resistance.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Indon » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:34 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:there are some minor things as well such as having to swear on a bible,


You don't have to swear on a bible anymore. You can ask for the holy text of your choice, or choose to make a religion(orlackthereof)-independent affirmation.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:40 pm UTC

The fact that it's done at all is... odd. Regardless of the work used. To the nonreligious, it makes as much sense as swearing by the works of Dean Koontz that you're going to be truthful.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby segmentation fault » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Which leads one to ask, why is that? If it's all so inconsequential, why should anyone care if it's removed? My guess is that it's because all that "little stuff", though quaint and insignificant on its own, combines to create an atmosphere in which christianity is the default and anything else is a tolerated aberration. The religious right likes it that way. Thus, any attempt to change the norm to something more egalitarian is met with a *lot* of resistance.


the way i see it is that, as children, we see the world through rose colored glasses. we are taught that america is awesome and that god is in heaven and all is right with the world.

some people look around and see "well, shits fucked up" and grow out of it, others continue to exist within the world that was presented to them as children.

people just dont want to give up on the thought that the way things are now is perfect. what they dont realize is that, for a select few, its not. and for some reason, even though religion teaches compassion, they absolutely refuse to be compassionate.

and as far as "making a big deal" is concerned:

some people complain about "merry christmas," so to accommodate, "happy holidays" is used instead. but now those christians (of whom "happy holidays" still encompasses) complain, and then get angry at the others for complaining, thus painting a picture that makes no sense. if others shouldnt care about being excluded, why do the christians complain about being included?

Indon wrote:You don't have to swear on a bible anymore. You can ask for the holy text of your choice, or choose to make a religion(orlackthereof)-independent affirmation.


yeah, but we all saw the uproar when Keith Ellison (sp?) wanted to swear on a qu'ran.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Hephesus » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:02 pm UTC

Aside from what all of the posters have discussed, religion is a big deal in politics in the U.S. The two candidates most likely to win the Republican Nomination at this time are at the forefront because they are running on a "Good, Christan" platform. Guiliany has clearly more mass appeal and political captial than both Huckabee and Romney, but he favors abortion and divorce and clearly at hate filled satanic secular.

The United States consitution claims that the U.S. is a secular country, but in reality someone who doesn't at least pretend to be Protestant has little chance to win a Presidency. The biggest diviation from this was J.F.K, who was Catholic.

At the end of the people will choose who they feel will protect their intrest. There is a very big Christian population in the U.S. Particularly in rural areas. They may or may not outnumber the rest, but they are louder and, more importantly, they vote. This means that politicians have to at least pay lip service to God, and leads to legislation being passed for purely religious reasons.

Edit: Very true, thought in Florida it seems that Protestant and Chirstian have become interchangeable. Still, fixed for clarity.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:05 pm UTC

Hephesus wrote:The United States consitution claims that the U.S. is a secular country, but in reality someone who doesn't at least pretend to be Protestant has little chance to win a Presidency. The biggest diviation from this was J.F.K, who was Catholic.


Fixed. Catholocism is a branch of christianity.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Lumpy » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:43 pm UTC

I read through my state constitution recently, and Tennessee still has a provision banning people that do not believe in a 'higher power' from holding public office.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:51 pm UTC

Lumpy wrote:I read through my state constitution recently, and Tennessee still has a provision banning people that do not believe in a 'higher power' from holding public office.


The federal government is a higher power than any Tennessee office so I don't have a problem with that :P
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby N.K. » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:59 pm UTC

Go watch the Youtube/CNN Republican debate.

In all seriousness though, abortion, gay rights, and intelligent design in schools.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:11 pm UTC

nobody else cares about buying booze on a sunday?
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby hack124x768 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:24 pm UTC

My reason for asking being that I don't watch TV, and don't really trust digg, yet in school and from friends I hear a lot of bashing.

Now here's another question, Why are the democrats any better?
They (most) all claim to be christian, so why should they be more favorable?

Most other issues aside, the only one that REALLY bugs me is the creation/evolution in classrooms thing. Students will believe whatever they are taught, so students should only be taught history we have in writing, and things that can be extrapolated from our current state by anyone. No more of this "creation is faith evolution is science" bullshit. Evolution is faith as well until people can prove it on their own. Why should people trust someone with the title of scientist anymore than someone with the title of priest, seeing as how both have done horrible things in the past in the name of their beliefs?
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby N.K. » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:39 pm UTC

hack124x768 wrote:My reason for asking being that I don't watch TV, and don't really trust digg, yet in school and from friends I hear a lot of bashing.

Now here's another question, Why are the democrats any better?
They (most) all claim to be christian, so why should they be more favorable?

Most other issues aside, the only one that REALLY bugs me is the creation/evolution in classrooms thing. Students will believe whatever they are taught, so students should only be taught history we have in writing, and things that can be extrapolated from our current state by anyone. No more of this "creation is faith evolution is science" bullshit. Evolution is faith as well until people can prove it on their own. Why should people trust someone with the title of scientist anymore than someone with the title of priest, seeing as how both have done horrible things in the past in the name of their beliefs?

A lot of Democrats are Christian, yes, but that doesn't mean they force it on others.

Maybe evolution is actually based on logical reasoning, and scientific evidence, whereas intelligent design is an explanation of religion? :| Then again, that's an issue for another topic.

Also, no, not all students are sponges, mate.

Insignificant Deification wrote:Hmm, I can't speak directly for the United States, as I lack citizenship thereof, but...

Laws based around biblical morality (sodomy law, for example)
Faith-based initiatives
Return-fire "atheist!" mudslinging (pro-republican anti-democrat attacks?)
You'll need an American to give you something more accurate.

According to my colleague (I just wanted to say that word) above, George Bush Sr. said something to the effect that he was uncertain, or plainly lacking favor of the idea of atheists being citizens of the united states. The only part of the quote I remember is his reasoning: "This is one nation under god."

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." ~Bush

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby hack124x768 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:47 pm UTC

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." ~Bush

This is just asking for a retort; Since when has Bush been a good example of ANYTHING?
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:49 pm UTC

hack124x768 wrote:Most other issues aside, the only one that REALLY bugs me is the creation/evolution in classrooms thing. Students will believe whatever they are taught, so students should only be taught history we have in writing, and things that can be extrapolated from our current state by anyone.


This is a topic for another thread.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Garm » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:55 pm UTC

Don't forget the abstinance only religious based sex ed movement. Bush budgets give money to those but not to sane sex ed programs. This despite the overwhelming evidence that abstinance only sex ed doesn't fucking work. Not even a little. In fact, it's even worse than no sex ed cuz the kids get scared of using condoms.

Let's take a look at some of the quotes of the so called christian leaders of today.

* Expect confrontations that will be not only unpleasant but at times physically bloody. We will be living through one of the most tumultuous periods of human history. When it is over, I am convinced God’s people will emerge victorious. But no victory ever comes without a battle. (Pat Robertson)

* As we see the Day approaching there’s going to be a cleansing…there’s going to be a purging coming forth…and everyone that’s living under the immorality cover will be brought down, and God’s new breed will come forth. (Bob Jones)

* I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good. ([url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Terry]Randall Terry[url])

* After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism (i.e., multicultural-ism) will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil. (Gary Potter)

* We were here first. You don’t take our shared common values and say they are biased and bigoted. We are the keepers of what is right and what is wrong. (Lou Sheldon)

* I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. (President George Bush, August 27, 1988)

My favorite is Gary Potter's, but the most frightening is probably our former president's statement.

Our current president is very active in promoting christianity. Even if it is a strange form that seems based on making him rich.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060814/new_christian_zionism
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031222/stam

Then there are our goverments ongoing efforts to errode the separation of church and state.

http://www.correntewire.com/bush_uses_katrina_to_fund_religious_schools_through_vouchers

Good ole W says "No government policy can put hope in people's hearts or a sense of purpose in people's lives. That is done when someone, some good soul, puts an arm around a neighbor and says, 'God loves you, and I love you, and you can count on us both.'"

And he ain't talking about some wishy-washy generalized concept of God, oh no. We're talking about the bearded doom bringer of the hebrews. Yeah, it's all rediculous. The idea that we are a "Christian Nation" just doesn't pan out. It's a big lie.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Hephesus » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:08 am UTC

hack124x768 wrote:My reason for asking being that I don't watch TV, and don't really trust digg, yet in school and from friends I hear a lot of bashing.

Now here's another question, Why are the democrats any better?
They (most) all claim to be christian, so why should they be more favorable?



Some Democrats can be just a bad. Particularly those that are from predominantly conservative states, like the Blue Dogs. Most of them tend to have pro-life voting records.

In general, though, Democrats tend to be more liberal when it comes to social issues, regardless of what their religiuos beliefs are.

It is not wrong for a leader to believe in a higher power. The problem comes when they use their position to impose their beliefs unto those they govern. In particular, when said beliefs are against the country's secular foundation.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby N.K. » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:55 am UTC

hack124x768 wrote:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." ~Bush

This is just asking for a retort; Since when has Bush been a good example of ANYTHING?

I wasn't using Bush as an example of anything; I was responding to Insignificant Deification's post.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:21 am UTC

We're talking about the bearded doom bringer of the hebrews.

Excuse us Hebrews for spoiling your idea, but our God is in no way bearded.

Now if He could just get around to the "doom bringing" bit. I've got a list of potential smite-ees just in case.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby hack124x768 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:37 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
We're talking about the bearded doom bringer of the hebrews.

Excuse us Hebrews for spoiling your idea, but our God is in no way bearded.

Now if He could just get around to the "doom bringing" bit. I've got a list of potential smite-ees just in case.


I hope you aren't referring to the people here, as you would be a prime example why they don't like religious people.

For the record, I am a christian, I do not like the church, and I'm not one of those "interpret the bible however you want" people.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Lumpy » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:09 am UTC

Pat Robertson has founded a group of people dedicated to protecting the 'sanctity' of the I-35 interstate highway, because Isaiah 35 talks about a highway in the desert and no one 'unclean' shall pass it. They're holding sieges on businesses like strip clubs near the highway and multiple hour long prayer vigils. I bet if they had their way, the Transportation Security Administration would have you provide church-certified documents to validate your 'cleanliness' before you could use it.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:27 am UTC

Wow...that's a sad, sad example of brainwashing.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:55 am UTC

hack124x768 wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
We're talking about the bearded doom bringer of the hebrews.

Excuse us Hebrews for spoiling your idea, but our God is in no way bearded.

Now if He could just get around to the "doom bringing" bit. I've got a list of potential smite-ees just in case.


I hope you aren't referring to the people here, as you would be a prime example why they don't like religious people.

For the record, I am a christian, I do not like the church, and I'm not one of those "interpret the bible however you want" people.

I'm referring to the man who runs my country, may his name and memory be blotted out from under the heavens.

Nice of you to immediately think that a religious person who wants some smiting done must want the non-religious people smited rather than the people actively damaging the world.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Vizzy » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:40 am UTC

One very good example of the religious right "imposing their view on the nation" (the state, in this case) is the recent change to the Texas Pledge of Allegiance, which public school students are required to recite every day. The phrase "one state under God" was added, so it now reads:

Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible.

which sounds very awkward. The bill analysis states that the addition "will acknowledge our Judeo-Christian heritage." If that isn't the right wing shoving religion down people's throats, I don't know what is.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:48 am UTC

Has anyone here seen the documentary, Jesus Camp? It's obviously an incredibly biased projection of what's going on--so it should all be taken with a grain of salt--but it bares mentioning as great (albeit extreme) example of the fortress mentality.

When a group of people have based their identity on an inflexible myth, the only way to maintain that portion of their identity in the face of growing evidence that their myth is--well, mythical--is to hunker down, break out a shovel, and start digging trenches. Suddenly, anything that doesn't directly support the mythical narrative is a direct attack. You create a social fortress against any external force that does not directly support your myth (and, in essence, your identity). This seems to be the only way extremely inflexible myths can continue to thrive in modern environments--by creating artificial social habitats where the environment does not keep popping up to remind you that, uh, yeah, sorry, the world isn't six thousand years old. What's amazing is that you get a microcosm within this artificial habitat--entire social orders, entire fucking ECONOMIES!--that pander to the fortress and it's particular brand of crazy.

There's obviously a lot of mud-slinging on both sides of this (I'm sorry, I know he's a genius and he's probably gone through enough to totally justify it, but Dawkins really goes overboard), and I'm not out to insult the right-wing religious fundamentalist movement (well, okay, maybe a little). But I think a healthy understanding of this mentality helps. Any attack on anything--even something as tame as saying, "Maybe we shouldn't staple religious texts to our government buildings"--must be viewed as an attack on the fortress. Anything else sacrifices the solidarity of the fortress and risks dissolving the habitat. The psychological 'walls' of this fortress are maintained by the perception of illusionary 'pressure' exerted by the sinister world order which is out to undermine your fundamental truth--the very identity you've latched onto. ANY action that doesn't support the myth must be an attack, and any attack on the myth is a direct attack of your identity. This is the only way the fortress can maintain its myth in an environment that completely contradicts it (either this or just take a chill pill and ignore the contradiction--but not many folks seem to go for this).

Interestingly, this is pretty much the same exact structure you see cults, racial supremacists, and conspiracy groups use to maintain their brand of crazy in the face of a world full of completely contradictory evidence. Even more fascinating is that a lot of these groups get along despite having directly opposed worldviews.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:27 pm UTC

hack124x768 wrote:Now here's another question, Why are the democrats any better?
They (most) all claim to be christian, so why should they be more favorable?


They're not. I'll let Reverend Hicks field this one.

Bill Hicks wrote:"I'll show you politics in America right here," Hicks told audiences, miming like a puppet master. "'I believe the puppet on the right shares my beliefs.' 'Well, I believe the puppet on the left is more to my liking.' Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets! 'Go back to bed, America, your government is in control. Here's Love Connection, watch this and get fat and stupid. By the way, keep drinking beer.'"
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Justinlrb
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Justinlrb » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:49 pm UTC

hack124x768 wrote:Evolution is faith as well until people can prove it on their own. Why should people trust someone with the title of scientist anymore than someone with the title of priest, seeing as how both have done horrible things in the past in the name of their beliefs?


Where can I get one of these titles of scientist? As for evolution being faith, we could say that all science is faith. Believing that the earth is round is faith for, really, who do you know has ever been all the way around with their eyes open the whole time? Hmm -- Maybe Magellan fudged the the ship's log.

But seriously, who would a rational person prefer to believe: someone who looks at the world methodically, makes testable observations, and submits them to scrutiny or someone who just makes stuff up and gets mad when you say it isn't so?

Also, I can't recall anything horrible being done in the name of evolution a la "Thus Darwin destroys his enemies!"

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Hephesus
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Hephesus » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:06 pm UTC

Justinlrb wrote:Also, I can't recall anything horrible being done in the name of evolution a la "Thus Darwin destroys his enemies!"


Evolutions was a central part of the Eugenics movement in the U.S. and Nazi Germany.

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Belial
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:12 pm UTC

I really don't like deleting posts that people obviously spent time on. It makes me sad. Please take the evolution debate elsewhere. There are about eight threads depending on which flavor of the debate you like. This isn't the place.

From here on, I delete.
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They/them

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:11 pm UTC

Everyone feels oppressed. The religious feel that they are still being persecuted, the atheists/agnostics/whathaveyous still see the influence of religion everywhere you go. Starbucks holiday pandering, government mandated vacations around Christmas (at least Chinese restaurants are still open), hell, Hallmark invented a holiday. The original colonists fled to America for religious freedom, and we would do America as a country a great disservice to step on anyone's toes for their beliefs, an impulse I feel just about all Americans believe. However, the number of religious individuals who do a whole lot of toe stomping vastly outweigh the number of religious individuals who are toe stomp free. A religious studies major friend of mine complains of being ostracized for finding religion interesting. I got into an argument with a prof about evolution and was removed from the Phi Betta Kappa candidacy list.

Comon people, no matter what you believe in, STOP STOMPING ON TOES.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby cathrl » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:28 pm UTC

What I really don't get is why it has to be one or the other. Everyone seems to be assuming that either the US is a completely secular country, or the schools all teach nothing but intelligent design and you can't buy alcohol on a Sunday.

They're not exclusive. Not even close, and I'm not even talking theoretical. Just take a look at the UK. Our head of state is the head of the Anglican Church. And yet our schools still teach evolution.

Speaking from a great distance, I'd have to say that it's time people stopped wailing every time someone expressed THEIR OWN beliefs (oh noes! somebody mentioned Christmas, I'm being oppressed!) and started clamping down on people like the prof Izzawwlgood mentions who react to the beliefs of others. In the UK he'd most probably lose his job for that. Certainly be hauled up in front of a tribunal.

Neither of these is stomping on toes. One is breathing very gently in the same room as someone, and the other is practically cutting off someone's whole leg. And they should not be considered equivalent simply because they both involve a difference of religious belief.

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The Great Hippo
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:36 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:The original colonists fled to America for religious freedom, and we would do America as a country a great disservice to step on anyone's toes for their beliefs, an impulse I feel just about all Americans believe.


Just for the sake of the History Major in me, I feel it necessary to point out that if you're referring to the 'pilgrims' (who weren't the original colonists), they didn't flee to America so much for religious freedom as they did to prove how much better their religion was from everyone else's. The first person to push religious tolerance in America was good ol' William Penn and the Quakers (religious tolerance for everyone--even Jews! BUT NOT MUSLIMS! Hooray! =D).

Atheists may feel oppressed in America, but this is different from the fortress mentality I'm describing for several reasons. Number one being: Try getting a busload of atheists and agnostics to agree on anything. No, seriously--just try. It's like trying to lead a herd of cats.

The religious right has a lot more solidarity as a group because they share a cultural heritage--this shit got history, yo. But atheism as a movement has always been spotty and really doesn't have any singular narrative or heritage to cling to.

cathrl wrote:Neither of these is stomping on toes. One is breathing very gently in the same room as someone, and the other is practically cutting off someone's whole leg. And they should not be considered equivalent simply because they both involve a difference of religious belief.


Again--though there are certainly people out there who attack religion with all the mad, fervent, mouth-frothing intensity that the religious right attacks secularism--I think the religious right really is the problem here. Mainly because all the insane toe-stomping secularists just lack the solidarity to appear as anything more than a bunch of fringe crazies, while the insane toe-stomping religious right have their own goddamn stores (as in real stores, you can visit--I HAVE VISITED THEM) that pander to them and only them. I mean, this is a very intensely concentrated group with one hell of a strong binding glue. They're a voting bloc.

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Belial
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:38 pm UTC

cathrl wrote:Speaking from a great distance, I'd have to say that it's time people stopped wailing every time someone expressed THEIR OWN beliefs (oh noes! somebody mentioned Christmas, I'm being oppressed!)


I really wish people would stop getting personal expression and governmental expression confused.

For reference, nobody wants to stop citizens from expressing their religion (well, Riley does). They just want to stop the government from expressing a religion.

It's neat that you're okay with your state religion, but we are...less so.
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They/them

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jynjin
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby jynjin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:39 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Has anyone here seen the documentary, Jesus Camp? It's obviously an incredibly biased projection of what's going on--so it should all be taken with a grain of salt--but it bares mentioning as great (albeit extreme) example of the fortress mentality.

I was RAISED in a Jesus Camp setting. The whole thing is accurate in its depiction of extreme fundamentalist Christianity and the brainwashing/indoctrination, my dear sir. There is indeed preaching from the pulpit instructing the congregates on how to vote, which candidate has God's favour, how all Democrats are demonically influenced, and how they must all "support Bush without question because God placed him in presidency". I've witnessed it. It's disgusting and unfortunate.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby ZeroSum » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:42 pm UTC

mosc wrote:nobody else cares about buying booze on a sunday?
I dunno about you, but I can buy booze on Sunday where I live. (Yes, in the US.)


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