I no longer feel safe on my college campus

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I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby PhantomReality » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:53 pm UTC

In case you've been living under a rock for the past few months there have been four shootings on campuses around the country in the last year. Most recently the student body president of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (my home town) was shot just outside of campus.

It makes me worried and very upset that the most academically charged, intellectually stimulating, and enlightened places on earth are also apparently socially alienating enough to produce people disgruntled enough to do things like this.

Some of my friends who I consider alcoholics and somewhat psychological unstable, suddenly terrify me.

If you feel the same please put your sentiments here...and better yet if you have an idea about how to make college campuses better and more safe environments post those too.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby segmentation fault » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:00 pm UTC

aaaaand cue the arguments about the 2nd amendment.

im going to be honest. i have no problem with guns being on campus. if we do necessary background checks on people trying to obtain guns legally, there shouldnt be a problem. if students were able to carry guns, they wouldnt have to wait for the police.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby 22/7 » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:29 pm UTC

PhantomReality wrote:It makes me worried and very upset that the most academically charged, intellectually stimulating, and enlightened places on earth are also apparently socially alienating enough to produce people disgruntled enough to do things like this.
Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? I'm sorry, but some people are narcissists (which I believe to be a number of "school shooters") and those people are going to do whatever they damn well please, because, well, that's who they are. School is probably a catlyst for this kind of thing (shootings, acting out for attention, whatever) because of how easy it is for everyone to ignore you, even though they're around you, which is hell for a narcissist. It's also a great way to sell newspapers or get people to watch your news station, since, especially with colleges, there are so many people affected (lots of people from all around the world go to said college/went to said college/know someone there/etc.). So you're more likely to hear about a shooting on a college campus (or high school, or whatever) than you are to hear about Bobby shooting Timmy in podunk, Mississippi or NY, NY.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby TizzyFoe » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:48 pm UTC

I feel fairly safe. I dont know the numbers but if you want to look it up, compare the number of people killed in campus shoots to the number of college students and that should cheer you up.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Lucrece » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:51 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
PhantomReality wrote:It makes me worried and very upset that the most academically charged, intellectually stimulating, and enlightened places on earth are also apparently socially alienating enough to produce people disgruntled enough to do things like this.
Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? I'm sorry, but some people are narcissists (which I believe to be a number of "school shooters") and those people are going to do whatever they damn well please, because, well, that's who they are. School is probably a catlyst for this kind of thing (shootings, acting out for attention, whatever) because of how easy it is for everyone to ignore you, even though they're around you, which is hell for a narcissist. It's also a great way to sell newspapers or get people to watch your news station, since, especially with colleges, there are so many people affected (lots of people from all around the world go to said college/went to said college/know someone there/etc.). So you're more likely to hear about a shooting on a college campus (or high school, or whatever) than you are to hear about Bobby shooting Timmy in podunk, Mississippi or NY, NY.


Do you have proof to back up your claims of narcissism being a predominant factor in school shootings?

The issue with safety is that the U.S. keeps getting increasingly more violent by the day. It won't stop until we as a society start reevaluating our norms and culture, which seem to lend themselves heavily to these levels of increasing aggressivity.

I do agree, however, that gun restrictions will do very little to curb these occurrences. Those hellbent on getting a gun to kill someone will get it; the ones who pay are the law-abiding victims who are negated any means of defense.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby lorenith » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:07 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:aaaaand cue the arguments about the 2nd amendment.

im going to be honest. i have no problem with guns being on campus. if we do necessary background checks on people trying to obtain guns legally, there shouldnt be a problem. if students were able to carry guns, they wouldnt have to wait for the police.


Yeah, but some of the recent shootings were done by people that legitimately acquired the weapons they had. So obviously something needs to be done to improve the whole background check part since it's not doing it's job, which would fall under "making college campuses a safer environment" but applying to everything in general not just a college campus. (I'm pretty neutral as far as gun control goes, on one hand I don't see any practical reason to own a gun outside of hunting, or as a hobby on the other hand having a gun makes some people feel more secure, and it's their right to own one if they want).

Honestly, I feel safe where I am though. I'm generally a pretty skittish person, and still am on campus. Everyone here is really friendly and the police are always patrolling around here. I feel much safer here than I do outside of campus unless I'm with someone.

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Silas » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:14 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:The issue with safety is that the U.S. keeps getting increasingly more violent by the day. It won't stop until we as a society start reevaluating our norms and culture, which seem to lend themselves heavily to these levels of increasing aggressivity.


What? More violent? Violence is down on the medium (5-50yr) and long (>50yr) term, and, though up-to-date statistics are hard to come by, even money would say it's down in the year-to-year numbers, too.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby segmentation fault » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:16 pm UTC

lorenith wrote:Yeah, but some of the recent shootings were done by people that legitimately acquired the weapons they had. So obviously something needs to be done to improve the whole background check part since it's not doing it's job,


thats pretty much where i stand.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Infornographer » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:16 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:im going to be honest. i have no problem with guns being on campus. if we do necessary background checks on people trying to obtain guns legally, there shouldnt be a problem. if students were able to carry guns, they wouldnt have to wait for the police.

In the case of almost all of the student killers, they acquired the guns legally and didn't have any history of crime or recorded history of psychological problems. In other words, they'd pass even the most rigorous background check. While I concede that if the students had guns, they wouldn't have to wait for the police, I can't help but think that if the murderers didn't have access to guns to begin with, then this wouldn't have happened.

I mean, when college student with no history of crime or anything else in his background check asks to purchase a gun, what choice do you have but to sell him the gun? Sadly, several of the school shooters tend to fall into this profile. I'll never know for sure what would have happened if they couldn't just buy a gun, but on the whole they strike me as the kind of people who wouldn't risk something like trying to illegally procure weapons. If you enact a murder-suicide on innocent victims, you pretty much have "weak" and "coward" written all over you.

Again, we can't know, but I have a feeling that there exists a solution better than making sure everyone has arms...
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby segmentation fault » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:17 pm UTC

Infornographer wrote:In the case of almost all of the student killers, they acquired the guns legally and didn't have any history of crime or recorded history of psychological problems.


VA tech shooter had a history of depression and 2 restraining orders against him. and im pretty sure the most recent one had medication prescribed to him for something.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Belial » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:18 pm UTC

I'm going to go ahead and say that, if lightning strikes and shark attacks don't scare you enough to make you stay inside and never go to the beach, you're probably going to be okay vis a vis school shootings
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Lucrece » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:28 pm UTC

Silas wrote:
Lucrece wrote:The issue with safety is that the U.S. keeps getting increasingly more violent by the day. It won't stop until we as a society start reevaluating our norms and culture, which seem to lend themselves heavily to these levels of increasing aggressivity.


What? More violent? Violence is down on the medium (5-50yr) and long (>50yr) term, and, though up-to-date statistics are hard to come by, even money would say it's down in the year-to-year numbers, too.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm


And in the meantime, hate crimes are on the rise as per the FBI.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Infornographer » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:33 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:
Infornographer wrote:In the case of almost all of the student killers, they acquired the guns legally and didn't have any history of crime or recorded history of psychological problems.


VA tech shooter had a history of depression and 2 restraining orders against him. and im pretty sure the most recent one had medication prescribed to him for something.

I said most, not all. You can check through Wikipedia's list of school shootings. Most of them acquired weapons in one of two ways: the majority of the underage shooters (in mostly high school shootings) stole their guns from their relatives, the majority of "adult" shootings (shootings on college campuses) purchased their guns legally and did not have a history of crime. More typically you see people like Steven Kazmierczak or Charles Carl Roberts or Biswanath Halder. People who range from star students to unsavory loners who have not done anything illegal or had any history that would prevent them from purchasing weapons.

Unless people amend background checks to include psychological profiling, then we'll still have this problem. Even then, you'd never get that passed the second amendment and you'd still not solve the problem. Personal weapons seem to me to have the same problem as nuclear weapons. As long as they exist, a threat will also exist. It just seems to me that, in both cases, even though we'd consider it ideal to get rid of them altogether, we acknowledge the pragmatic impossibility of it yet we haven't done enough to minimize that threat.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby darren » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:35 pm UTC

Stop letting the media manipulate you. You're still far more likely to get killed in an auto accident than by gun fire.

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby mosc » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:39 pm UTC

darren wrote:Stop letting the media manipulate you. You're still far more likely to get killed in an auto accident than by gun fire.

absofuckinglutely!
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Malice » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:47 pm UTC

Definitely.

But if it really bothers you, do what I did: buy a sword. :D
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby lorenith » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:58 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:VA tech shooter had a history of depression and 2 restraining orders against him. and im pretty sure the most recent one had medication prescribed to him for something.


The guy that had medication prescribed to him actually got a hold of those weapons legitimately, I forgot what the medication was for though but the articles seemed to draw a line between what he was medicated for and what he did.

It's a bit annoying that the media makes so many people think that crime is on the rise when it isn't. Every time I say this to someone (even more educated people) they seem surprised, and it's because of what the media is feeding them.

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby TheStranger » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:33 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:And in the meantime, hate crimes are on the rise as per the FBI.


Since hate crimes are a somewhat recent creation (legally) the 'rise' in them may be due to more legislation being passed to punish them.

It also assumes that you accept the premise behind current hate crime legislation.

To the OP...

If you feel unsafe on campus I would recommend taking a self-defense class, which may be offered by your university.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Lucrece » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:38 pm UTC

TheStranger wrote:
Lucrece wrote:And in the meantime, hate crimes are on the rise as per the FBI.


Since hate crimes are a somewhat recent creation (legally) the 'rise' in them may be due to more legislation being passed to punish them.

It also assumes that you accept the premise behind current hate crime legislation.


I'll need more evidence before I start taking that bit of speculation into consideration.

I am not interested in whether we should/shouldn't have hate crimes legislation debate, but I am curious as to what this premise you talk about is?

I hope it's not something derailing into the "every crime is a hate crime" mentality.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Silas » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:03 am UTC

How are hate crimes relevant to the OP?
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Malice » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:And in the meantime, hate crimes are on the rise as per the FBI.


Are hate crimes on the rise? Or are prosecutions of crimes as hate crimes on the rise?
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby 22/7 » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:21 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:
22/7 wrote:
PhantomReality wrote:It makes me worried and very upset that the most academically charged, intellectually stimulating, and enlightened places on earth are also apparently socially alienating enough to produce people disgruntled enough to do things like this.
Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? I'm sorry, but some people are narcissists (which I believe to be a number of "school shooters") and those people are going to do whatever they damn well please, because, well, that's who they are. School is probably a catlyst for this kind of thing (shootings, acting out for attention, whatever) because of how easy it is for everyone to ignore you, even though they're around you, which is hell for a narcissist. It's also a great way to sell newspapers or get people to watch your news station, since, especially with colleges, there are so many people affected (lots of people from all around the world go to said college/went to said college/know someone there/etc.). So you're more likely to hear about a shooting on a college campus (or high school, or whatever) than you are to hear about Bobby shooting Timmy in podunk, Mississippi or NY, NY.


Do you have proof to back up your claims of narcissism being a predominant factor in school shootings?

The issue with safety is that the U.S. keeps getting increasingly more violent by the day. It won't stop until we as a society start reevaluating our norms and culture, which seem to lend themselves heavily to these levels of increasing aggressivity.

I do agree, however, that gun restrictions will do very little to curb these occurrences. Those hellbent on getting a gun to kill someone will get it; the ones who pay are the law-abiding victims who are negated any means of defense.

I never claimed that this was the case, I said that it was my theory on the happenings. And yes, I do have some (somewhat) anecdotal evidence to that effect, which is where my theory came from in the first place.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Lucrece » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:48 am UTC

Malice wrote:
Lucrece wrote:And in the meantime, hate crimes are on the rise as per the FBI.


Are hate crimes on the rise? Or are prosecutions of crimes as hate crimes on the rise?


They are on the rise. Check the recent release of FBI statistics; the details are explained there.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby tiny » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:53 am UTC

Infornographer wrote:(...) If you enact a murder-suicide on innocent victims, you pretty much have "weak" and "coward" written all over you.(...)
I beg to differ. Very very muchly so.
A coward would commit suicide silently and without ever showing how fucking angry they are.
The outsider who brings a gun to school and opens fire is finally too despaired, exhausted and angry to be frightened anymore. This outsider takes revenge on the shallow, heartless students who had nothing better to do than ignore him, taunt him, ridicule him, beat him up or tell him how ugly and stupid he is. Every single day of the week.
These people made his life unbearable and in his view morphed into a faceless mass of cold, unfeeling eyes and mocking mouths. And he shoots them.
Then he commits the suicide he's been contemplating and planning for months. The shooting is just the icing on the cake. His angry gesture before he leaves the stage for good.

I say this with confidence because there have been times in my school career when only fear of the consequences kept me from attacking the bastards who tortured me. A baseball bat would have been my weapon of choice. And in the end I'd have jumped off the building.
I settled on becoming ill very often so I didn't have to go to that hateful place. The strategy of one who is a coward and hasn't lost all hope yet.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Lucrece » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:53 am UTC

Silas wrote:How are hate crimes relevant to the OP?


In that instead of being violent crimes as a result of mere personal interest, they are expressions of an extreme dislike projected at a particular group.

Many of these shooters tended to generalize their student body to be out to get them. In cases like Columbine, it is the "revenge of the oppressed against the normals". Several school shootings and violent altercations are racially motivated (Jena 6).
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Lucrece » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:56 am UTC

22/7 wrote:
Lucrece wrote:
22/7 wrote:
PhantomReality wrote:It makes me worried and very upset that the most academically charged, intellectually stimulating, and enlightened places on earth are also apparently socially alienating enough to produce people disgruntled enough to do things like this.
Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? I'm sorry, but some people are narcissists (which I believe to be a number of "school shooters") and those people are going to do whatever they damn well please, because, well, that's who they are. School is probably a catlyst for this kind of thing (shootings, acting out for attention, whatever) because of how easy it is for everyone to ignore you, even though they're around you, which is hell for a narcissist. It's also a great way to sell newspapers or get people to watch your news station, since, especially with colleges, there are so many people affected (lots of people from all around the world go to said college/went to said college/know someone there/etc.). So you're more likely to hear about a shooting on a college campus (or high school, or whatever) than you are to hear about Bobby shooting Timmy in podunk, Mississippi or NY, NY.


Do you have proof to back up your claims of narcissism being a predominant factor in school shootings?

The issue with safety is that the U.S. keeps getting increasingly more violent by the day. It won't stop until we as a society start reevaluating our norms and culture, which seem to lend themselves heavily to these levels of increasing aggressivity.

I do agree, however, that gun restrictions will do very little to curb these occurrences. Those hellbent on getting a gun to kill someone will get it; the ones who pay are the law-abiding victims who are negated any means of defense.

I never claimed that this was the case, I said that it was my theory on the happenings. And yes, I do have some (somewhat) anecdotal evidence to that effect, which is where my theory came from in the first place.


I'll hold off on that theory until something more than anecdotal evidence is offered. I'm not saying it is not credible; I'm just wary of the way it generalizes school shooters as alien beings, which makes it easy to dismiss the finer details of the occurrences.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby darren » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:01 am UTC

Silas wrote:How are hate crimes relevant to the OP?

It's relevant because it was posted in a forum filled, apparently, with hyper-pedantic over-educated children.

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby TheStranger » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:12 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:
Malice wrote:
Lucrece wrote:And in the meantime, hate crimes are on the rise as per the FBI.


Are hate crimes on the rise? Or are prosecutions of crimes as hate crimes on the rise?


They are on the rise. Check the recent release of FBI statistics; the details are explained there.


This data? The numbers do not seem to be changing that much over the past 10+ years.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Lucrece » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:21 am UTC

TheStranger wrote:
Lucrece wrote:
Malice wrote:
Lucrece wrote:And in the meantime, hate crimes are on the rise as per the FBI.


Are hate crimes on the rise? Or are prosecutions of crimes as hate crimes on the rise?


They are on the rise. Check the recent release of FBI statistics; the details are explained there.


[http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#hate]This data?[/url] The numbers do not seem to be changing that much over the past 10+ years.


A 7.8 % overall rise is still a rise. These are not mere numbers, remember. It's people who are brutalized in order to be made an example to the communities they represent to cause terror among such communities.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Kaiyas » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:33 am UTC

Infornographer wrote:[W]e haven't done enough to minimize that threat.

We've made schools "gun-free", haven't we? Which seems counter-intuitive, since those who want guns badly enough will usually get guns. And I don't think they'll be stopped by a little "Do not carry X in school...Fine of Y amount" sign. A deterrent that affects the victims, not the shooter.

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Malice » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:06 am UTC

On the subject of hate crime figures:

2005:
Total violent crimes in the US: 1,390,745
Total US population: 296,507,061
Violent crimes per 1000 citizens: approximately 4.690

[Perspective check: think of 200 people you know. Odds are, one of them was the victim of a violent crime during 2005.]

Total number of hate crimes: 8,380
Number of hate crimes considered violent: 2652
Percentage of violent crimes categorized as hate crimes: approximately .191%

[Perspective check: remember that group of 200 people? If you can, think of 560 of those groups. That's 112,000 people. One violent crime victim per group. Odds are, one of those 560 victims, they were actually the victim of a violent hate crime.]

2006:
Total violent crimes in the US: 1,417,745
Total US population: 299,398,484
Violent crimes per 1000 citizens: approximately 4.735

Total number of hate crimes: 9,080
Number of hate crimes considered violent: 2942
Percentage of violent crimes categorized as hate crimes: approximately .208%

Conclusion: this problem is extremely fucking tiny.

(By comparison, in 2006, about 44,000 people died in car crashes.)

Violent crime figures obtained here.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby McCaber » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:33 am UTC

Wait, how are hate crime statistics relevant to the topic at hand?

Anyway, I worry about beatings/muggings at school much more than school shootings, if only because they are much more common.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby TheStranger » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:35 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:A 7.8 % overall rise is still a rise. These are not mere numbers, remember. It's people who are brutalized in order to be made an example to the communities they represent to cause terror among such communities.


Sure, but that 7.8% represents a very small increase in the number of incidents (an already small number). I'm also unsure as to how this relates to safety on campus.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby ErrantBit » Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:55 am UTC

tiny wrote:
Infornographer wrote:(...) If you enact a murder-suicide on innocent victims, you pretty much have "weak" and "coward" written all over you.(...)
I beg to differ. Very very muchly so.
A coward would commit suicide silently and without ever showing how fucking angry they are.
The outsider who brings a gun to school and opens fire is finally too despaired, exhausted and angry to be frightened anymore. This outsider takes revenge on the shallow, heartless students who had nothing better to do than ignore him, taunt him, ridicule him, beat him up or tell him how ugly and stupid he is. Every single day of the week.
These people made his life unbearable and in his view morphed into a faceless mass of cold, unfeeling eyes and mocking mouths. And he shoots them.
Then he commits the suicide he's been contemplating and planning for months. The shooting is just the icing on the cake. His angry gesture before he leaves the stage for good.

I say this with confidence because there have been times in my school career when only fear of the consequences kept me from attacking the bastards who tortured me. A baseball bat would have been my weapon of choice. And in the end I'd have jumped off the building.
I settled on becoming ill very often so I didn't have to go to that hateful place. The strategy of one who is a coward and hasn't lost all hope yet.


Now I am depressed :(
I like to think I could ignore any amount of maltreatment, but really I have no idea. I am reminded of how relatively lucky I have been.
I think the main distinction between becoming ill and killing them all is not really bravery. I personally have never really extracted much joy from vengeance, and I feel pretty bad at the prospect of causing so much pain to others. I also have pretty high hopes for the rest of my life. I think the balance of those factors is more important than whether you are a coward or not.
If I were really fed up, I would like to think I would see how much crazy shit I could do when I knew I could bow out at any time. I have always had a vague desire to see if I am resourceful enough to disappear and start an entirely new life.

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Indon » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:36 pm UTC

I'm more afraid of being killed by media overexaggeration than I am at being killed by school violence.

Yes, I'm sure I could be killed by media overexaggeration. More at 11. :P
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:52 pm UTC

Advisory on the relevance of guns to this situation:

There are entire nations in the world in which guns may not enter except through illegal means. These same nations have approximately the same crime rates as similar countries that do allow guns. The main difference is that the violence is not so spectacular in numbers, though far more brutal in practice. You can only bludgeon so many people to death before you get tired, for example.

Logical conclusion: Guns are simply a weapon, something that can be made of approximately anything you can find. Look around you. If you've got a bit of clutter, odds are there are twenty or more objects within five paces of you that, given enough determination, you could murder someone with. There are probably some that could kill someone in a second. For example, this computer monitor is heavy enough to turn someone's skull concave. Working on gun law any more than you have won't accomplish much of anything.

All solutions we can come up with to this problem go against human nature. Making people nicer and friendlier is not likely to happen. Expecting people to give up if they can't get their preferred weapon is also somewhat naive.

Indeed, as tiny said, cowardice, fear, hatred. Negative emotions are the problem.
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby DougP » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:26 pm UTC

There are shooting all over the place all the time. Some are on college campuses, come in shopping malls, some are right in the middle of the street. There is no point in living in fear, anywhere you go could potentially get shot up, unless you hole yourself up somewhere. The fact of the matter is, considering the fact that college campuses have insanely high population density, I think they are relatively safe.

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:39 pm UTC

I imagine it's not exactly true for college campuses like for high school campuses, but it's worth noting that during the 1990's, when people were completely flipping the fuck out over this alleged "epidemic" of school shootings, it was actually safer to be in school than out of school for every kind of accidental injury except sports-related ones.

4 shootings in one year among, what, a few million college students? That's not a worrisome trend to me. Like, at all.

Insignificant Deification wrote:These same nations have approximately the same crime rates as similar countries that do allow guns.

Firstly, citation needed. Secondly, the rate of crime and the rate of murder are not at all the same thing. Do as many people get killed every year in those countries with vanishingly small numbers of guns compared to the US? Do as many depressed people successfully commit suicide when the almost sure-fire method of a firearm is not so readily available? Do incidents of road rage or bar fights or street brawls involve someone's murder nearly as often when there are no guns involved as when there are?

No, guns don't kill people. But they sure as fuck make it a hell of a lot easier to kill more people, faster. A computer monitor might cave someone's skull in, but can someone with good aim cave half a dozen people's skulls in with a monitor (pretending for a second that it wouldn't break itself) in anything like the amount of time it could take someone with a gun to shoot six people?
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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby lorenith » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:23 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Firstly, citation needed. Secondly, the rate of crime and the rate of murder are not at all the same thing. Do as many people get killed every year in those countries with vanishingly small numbers of guns compared to the US? Do as many depressed people successfully commit suicide when the almost sure-fire method of a firearm is not so readily available? Do incidents of road rage or bar fights or street brawls involve someone's murder nearly as often when there are no guns involved as when there are?



I'm not sure as many people get killed, since there's a smaller population, but per capita I've heard that some of the no gun countries aren't generally any less violent/crime filled than the US. Although I'm not really sure about murder, just crime in general.

No citation though sorry. Maybe I'll ask the wiki sometime, or something..

Now if you live in the US, I suggest you stay very far away from Florida, having to do some very tiny minor homework on Felonies, it seems that 1/5 of the nations felons where charged in Florida. It also has the highest percentage of them committed per capita of any state. I don't know if it's cause Floridas laws are hardcore so more people are charged, the people there just like to commit crimes, or both though...

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Re: I no longer feel safe on my college campus

Postby Vaniver » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:41 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:The issue with safety is that the U.S. keeps getting increasingly more violent by the day.
Just no. Even if we go with your change to talking about hate crimes, I refuse to believe that there are more hate crimes going on now compared to 10 or 50 years ago, when any rise in reported incidents can easily be explained by more frequent reporting.

lorenith wrote:I'm pretty neutral as far as gun control goes, on one hand I don't see any practical reason to own a gun outside of hunting
Oh, I don't know, defending yourself during a school shooting?
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